never been in this situation but what does your previous boss consider "too much" internet surfing?...in an 8 hour shift, how many hours of those do you spend surfing the internet?...

Its never a consolidated stretch of time, but i guess between an hour and hour and a half sporadically through the day.

Well judging from what you wrote, it seems like you were on the firm's shit list already because of your past confrontations w/ your PM and they perceived an attitude problem coming from you. I'm guessing that your internet addiction during office hours was the final straw.

How long had you been working there? If you are as hard-working as you say, then your former boss & PM should have no problem giving you a positive reference based on your work performance.

I wouldn't sweat how it's going to effect your whole career. I know many people that have been fired or let go for various reasons and they've been fine and successful.

If it comes up in your next job interview, you should play it as "I didn't get along with my PM and it wasn't the right 'fit'... Don't mention your internet addiction (no matter how much of non-issue you think it is).

lush, if i were your boss, i would not be happy with you surfing the internet that much. that's 5-8 hours a week. possiblly a full day a week in some instances.

I realise that it was maybe too much- I know its not a non-issue. Thanks dml955i, I was thinking of wrighting to my senior PM and ask if he would give me a positive refernce based on my work- is this a good idea?

depends on what you were surfing. If it's unrelated to architecture or your production, then it's a reasonable complaint. Honestly, I'd be annoyed with an employee spending more than a few minutes on personal things online. But, if it's for research (I assume it wasn't), then that's different.

I know of people that got fired, too. One even sued his employer (settled). Don't sweat it, he's doing better than ever now and it didn't affect his chance of getting employment.

I'd just say evaluate your postiion once you have time to think. Think hard about how much you contributed to the situation and try to avoid that later on. Some peolpe are confrontational or too opinionated and that can rub some people the wrong way. Sometimes it's just a bad mix of people in an office and that'll inevitably cause problems.

I hate to point to anything, but if you ever watched the Apprentice there are good lessons to learn about leadership and the fluidity of the management. If someone introduces resistance, it'll screw the whole mix up and they'll be the first to go, regardless of talent or production.

'cause the way i'm seeing this is that in an office environment, (as long as you get the job done and even put in extra hours here and there to complete projects), hours are really not that rigid...employees read the news or magazine articles for a few minutes, chit-chat with co-workers and the boss, prepares coffee, get snacks, check emails, research job-related things on the internet, very short breaks from looking at the computer screen...these things add up...you can look at it that way and make your potential employer see that your internet surfing is just a part of that office environment...the wording of the explanation will depend on you however...

does your boss have a log of the sites you access?

no

Lush, I gotta agree w/ E... That's a lot...

Having no idea about your work experience or billable rate, I'm going to assume that your firm bills your client $45/hr. for your time (that's what we bill our interns out at). Also, I'm assuming that you fill out your timesheet billing your time to a project (including your web surfing). An hour a day of web surfing for a year costs your project/client $11,700.

Even though you claim to work very efficiently and finish work early/on-time, I bet you could've gotten a lot accomplished in those 52 wasted hours (and that's being conservative).

I know you feel like shit and I don't mean to pile on, but c'mon! If you need your internet fix and you get a lunch hour, eat lunch at your desk and do your surfing during that time...

yeah...i'm trying to back this person up but now i realize this person just needs to face up to this

I guess there are ways to access that info, our office comps were on a network with a central server.

I know all this- and I am now deeply repentant- what can I do now? I know that I for one am never going to surf the internet in an office again- i have learnt my lesson!

what can I say at my interview tomorrow when they ask me why? That I was unhappy at the job, was not getting along with my PM, and that the stress was starting to reflect on my work?

More than 80% of employers report monitoring online activity, and only about half of them alert their employers that they do so.

I worked for a large firm that used the "too much internet" reason for most of the firings they did, because this is an easily documented infraction - so it's hard for the fired employee to contest this (whereas if the employee is fired for anything from insubordination to incompetence it is more difficult to substantiate and so it leaves the employer open to legal action.)

Anyway, if you're asked why you left your last job you can be pretty general: "the firm was not the best fit for me" for example. I've worked with people who were straightforward about having been fired from their last job, so it didn't necessarily prevent them from being hired. I remember an interview with one of them in which he said that he and the his former employer "mutually arrived at the realization that the situation was not viable long-term." It's unlikely that you will be pressed on the issue, but if you are then just be as vague as possible, be honest, definately do NOT say anything negative about your previous job, and stress that you always learn from your mistakes.

If you are sure that someone at your old firm will give you a positive reference then by all means use that. Also, most employers will not give an overtly negative review of an employee that they fired - they're more likely to just be lukewarm and noncommital. And lots of potential employers also don't bother to check references!

And NO, never say that you weren't getting along with somebody at your old job. Frankly I'd be a lot more worried about that issue than the internet one. In your first post you sound pretty unrepentant about the PM confrontations ("I work hard and don't take shit- I guess thats a problem?") Try to keep in mind that confrontations affect more than just your own productivity. They stress out people around you, make the work environment unpleasant, make your employer see you as inflexible, immature, not someone ready to move upward in the firm...
Avoid that whole subject at all costs.

That makes me feel slightly better formerlyunknown. I cant very well lie and say that 'I left me last firm'. Wont i need to be absolutely honest and say that i was let go? But in know that I need to be vague about the reasons and hope for the best.

bad fit. simple as that. don't make too much of it. think before making a quick response (if they press you about it). deep breath...

lush, is this your first job or have you had others? if others, you have less reason to rely on good words from your last firm.

i agree with formerlyunknown. i would make it about you in the sense of them not being a good fit for you. we have have things about our jobs that we like and don't like, and like all relationships, not all are perfect. i would think about what some of those issues are and make an arguement of where you want to go from here. this shows reflection on your part of both the past and future.

telling the truth is always good, but i think you should figure out how much you need to tell. telling none of the truth could hurt you as much as telling too much. telling some of the truth is usually good enough.

best of luck

Well, an interviewer is almost never going to ask "were you fired from your last job." They usually say something like "why did you leave your last job" or "why are you available now." So it is not dishonest to say that the previous position was a bad fit. It's also not dishonest to answer with something about what you're looking for now, like "I'm looking for a firm where I can put to use my strong skills in [fill in blank here.]" Or "I'm very interested in [fill in type of work that interviewing firm does.]

Basically you just want to treat this as any other interview - tell the firm what you can do for them, why you're interested in their work, etc.
As long as you don't lie, there's nothing to worry about.

lush,

hoping they wont ask you but you better have a good answer if they ask you to elaborate on the meaning of "bad fit"...termination is a big deal to an employer and saying "bad fit" and expecting them to say "ok, next question"...i don't know about that

Thanks for all your advise you guys- anything else i should be aware of? I know what not to do at my next job- what should i NOT do/ say at my interviews? I plan to be vague but forthright- and take it as it comes. I am hoping for the best.

screw efficiency...keep surfing

in any case, if you get the job done before time and to everyone's satisfaction, there is no reason the surfing should be a problem.
At least that is the way we work in our office. Its no problem if you do your thing, but you have to get done whats assigned to you.

Honestly, and please dont take this in a bad way, but i think the 'internet surfing' is just a reason they have used to let you go. That said, now you can use it to your benefit. Just let the new employers know about it, and assert that you've always gotten the work done on time etc (illustrate a few examples, even). This way they will know your attitude towards work too.

And, now its a seller's market. There are many jobs out there...

thanks for the vote of confidence sameolddoctor- I needed it! Maybe it was that they just needed an excuse- whatever- I just hope i can move on soon and find a bigger better job to bust my balls at!

it's always a tragedy, of sorts, when an employment relationship falls apart ... especially when it happens as described above

but, i think it important to reflect on what your employer - any employer - is doing when they hire you ... they're not hiring you to support your lifestyle or your hobbies or your habits ... they're not hiring you to be 'high maintenance' ... they're not hiring you to set a poor example for the other members of the staff ... they're certainly not hiring you to be insubordinate or difficult

they are hiring you to make a positive contribution to the work and the culture of the firm ... they are hiring you to give 8-hours of value for 8-hours of pay ... it's vital, as you say, to meet your schedules and to do competent work ... but, it goes way beyond that in most firms ...

i've said here before that architecture is a "team sport" ... the schools generally don't prepare us well for that ... but, in offices, it's a concept that cannot be ignored ... teams have rules and the rules are designed (typically) to ensure a level playing field for all

i've seen too many young, highly-competent architectural grads go down in flames because they want to set their own rules and operate any way they choose ... if you work for yourself, that's totally acceptable ... but, most organizations of any size require some rules and some boundaries in order for there to be fairness to all and to avoid chaos

lush, i'm sorry this ended this way for you ... going forward, you'll have to decide for yourself what level of tolerance you have for rules and what types of firms you can tolerate ... i wish you well and hope you find a place where you can be both happy and productive

All my time surfing Archinect gets logged onto my timesheet as Professional Development.

I would think in your next job...maybe not so much surfing the net and more time spent back checking things just to be sure they are
correct. I'm always amazed at the number of mistakes slip out of offices just because no one can find the time to back check cross references and notes and all the other things which float out of an
office.

I personally don't have a problem if your spending your time say, in the Web Site of the Brick Industry Association site reading a technical paper. Where I draw the line is people cruizing bull crap sites, which have nothing to do with architecture.....you know like food sites, or blogs from teen age girls.

agree with snooker. less so with quizzical, though his point is valid. depends on the firm.

rules are important but not in and of themselves (i live in a culture where rules are sort of there to be followed but not obeyed because then NOTHING would get done; Japan is a weird place indeed-y).

i have to admit i would be annoyed if you spent that much time on the internet even if you were incredibly productive. it is a totally hypocritical attitude i know, but there it is. there really is always more to do in an office and i would rather see you doing a competition (for yourself) or studying than playing around on-line in downtimes.

which is really what i should be doing instead of checking archinect all the time...;-) but i am self-employed and work long enough hours that the occassional diversion doesn't leave me feeling too guilty. isn't it AWFUL how easy it is to rationalise time-well-wasted type stuff?