Loved the flooring in The Whitney, reclaimed heart pine with a light “chalk” finish, looking for a use…..felt like you could just nail something to it.
Sarah, I think the elementary gym floor/cafeteria floor you're thinking of is probably vinyl composition tile (VCT). Marmoleum is linoleum tiles, not VCT. You might also look into solid vinyl tiles -- most manufacturer's market it as luxury vinyl tiles (LVT) -- if you are thinking of going the resilient tile flooring route.
my nephew dropped out of ball state and was working at walmart, got a girl pregnant etc. before he decided to join up. he tried the air force, tested very high but was turned down because he had too many tattoos. he was accepted by the army and became an army ranger. he did two tours in iraq and one in afghanistan where he was nearly blown to bits by an ied. i think two of his comrades were killed. anyway he's home mostly safe. i know he suffered some brain trauma but has a good job with a railroad in california. the cynical part of me thinks that if we still had union jobs in this country he could have made some decent money rather than wrangling shopping carts at a big box parking lot with no future. i think people join up to get out of small town merka.
vado, there's nothing cynical about thinking union jobs could improve our current situation!
I once had a drunk soldier feel me up on an airplane en route to a railroad job in California. This was a flight from Indianapolis so he was coming from Atterbury, had been partying all night and was still drunk on our 5:30am flight as he headed west to start a new life. I couldn't even be mad at him because he was so young and was, I think, basically being polite to me by squeezing my thigh. I wonder if it was your nephew, vado?
Sarah, Marmoleum is linoleum, which is made from mainly "natural" materials like cork and linseed oil. The stuff in elementary schools is vinyl - a petroleum product. So it's night and day, really. IMO, Marmoleum (which is a brand name of linoleum - the product is linoleum, and some other manufacturers also make it) isn't trying to be any other material, it is "real enough" to use my guru Michael Benedikt's term.
Long, long ago there was an Archinecter named Spelling Bee Champ. I recently met this Archinecter, and it was a pleasure. Spelling is important.
Jul 23, 15 9:39 pm ·
·
Donna,
The stuff used in elementary school can be a variety of materials. In some cases, it is linoleum. In some cases, it is vinyl. In some cases, it is other products. It can be a cement-asbestos tile with a thin vinyl or whatever layer with the decorative pattern or whatever. Sometimes this product is basically that.
Also, the older stuff can even be bonded to the floor by a asbestos containing adhesive.
You know, Richard, I actually rolled my eyes then realized you're right - VCT is vinyl composition tile, not solely vinyl.
The older stuff actually has asbestos IN IT, not just in the adhesive. Those are usually 8x8 rather than 12x12.
Jul 23, 15 10:02 pm ·
·
True but it existed in all the sizes due to various manufacturers and at one point in time... it was quite pervasive. I was saying it was in the tile not just in the adhesive. Lovely stuff to replace but worth noting in the discussion that the old stuff out there could very well have this stuff and worth being aware of. I work with buildings that can quite often have this stuff.
Honestly, I forgot the acronym VCT and often we think of them by other terms. Some tiles were basically asbestos fibers mixed into a cement mix like the asbestos cement shingles and with a vinyl sheet on the top surface.
Then we had another fun stuff asphalt-asbestos tiles.
Talk about some fun stuff. Pretty much anything (floor tiles) installed pre-1985 should be PACM (Presumed Asbestos Containing Material) unless determined and therefore ACM.
Just because asbestos was banned at some point, it didn't stop being used instantly.
You still never answered the question about why they wax them, Richard. It shuts down our hallways for a week. Nasty stuff.
And CAN I just sand a finish the tongue and groove planking? I'm only curious if it's doable. I figure it would be noisy, but just curious if it's even an option.
Still, I haven't learned this much about floor materials since my building systems class!
we'd have to see it sarah. there is a good chance it's a normal decent wood floor that was just covered with carpet. if that's the case it should be pretty painless to just refinish it.
i would advise against using the asbestos tile richard is talking about. it would be pretty hard to source.
Sarah, I mistakenly read your original post. If you already have tongue and groove flooring laid down it would seem all you need to do is sand it down, stain it (if not already stained) and apply some satin or gloss polyurethane finish.( I think satin looks better)
Sarah, the waxing of VCT (and other floors) is done for maintenance. The layer of wax protects the tile and helps with cleaning. Also, almost every facilities person I've met working with schools loves floors looking nice and shiny so they wax and polish them. I think it is a sense of pride thing, like having the nicest looking lawn on the block. It's a touchy subject when you talk about flooring products for a remodel or a new school in the district that aren't generally supposed to be waxed and polished (rubber flooring for example).
While we're throwing out flooring materials for Sarah's consideration ... anyone have any experience with aluminum flooring? Came across a reference for it the other day and had never heard of it.
That's just it, it isn't wood flooring, really. The floor section goes like this:
1st floor gypboard ceiling
2x6 joists
Tongue and groove planking
Assumed substrate per Jerome's comment above
Shag carpet
I'm assuming that the tongue and groove planking is used because plywood hadn't been invented?
And when it comes to schools and floors, it can get rediculous. Ours are being replaced this summer, and instead of really thinking it through, they replaced with like and kind. The wood shop office is getting brand new carpet! They wouldn't even consider bare polished concrete.
Jul 24, 15 1:22 pm ·
·
The same reason people wax their cars. It keeps liquids from penetrating into the material and permanently 'staining' the material. It also helps stuff not get embedded and bonded into the material to such a level that it becomes very difficult to remove.
Basically E_I said it. People who run facilities wants spotless and a lot of facility custodians wants to keep their jobs so they have to do what it takes to keep it clean and as 'new' looking as possible. In some places, there is a high standard. If your floor tile is light color, you can see dirt and all. Pride is also a part of it, too.
Sarah, you can use wood as well. Often, wood floors are waxed as well. The reason is for finish and shininess. That 'new' look. This is all part of maintenance. Waxing doesn't necessarily have to be done every month. This would be done during winter break and summer break and maybe spring break as well if they budget for it all. The wood would often have a finish and stain which would only be sanded once in decade(s) time frame. remember, sanding makes the wood thinner so you have to be mindful of that. In reference to Volunteer's comment, Sanding/buffing just the wax layer is one thing. Sanding to re-apply new stain and all that stuff is another. This is done when they want to keep the facility looking new even after several decades of use.
curtkram,
I don't think you'll find new VCT that contains asbestos. They are something to think about when working with existing buildings. There is certainly a touchy discussion about removing them.
Sarah, I see your point. I would call the owner of a flooring company in your town to come out an have a look. He probably has seen your type of flooring construction elsewhere in town and can tell you what your options are. He should not charge anything for a visit and consultation.
asbestos becomes a problem when it's broken up. they call it 'friable.' when it breaks you can breathe in the dust which is what leads to mesothelioma. if you find asbestos tile or mastic in your house, it's usually best to not break it up and breathe the dust, which means leave it were it is and install the new vct over it.
asbestos insulation should be safely removed by people who remove asbestos insulation.
Yes. As design professionals, we should be aware of best practices procedures. Thanks for adding to the point. I know asbestos is a 'friable'.
I work with historic buildings and other existing buildings so I need to be aware of this stuff including lead based paint and other lead containing products that can potentially be friable.
Asbestos should be removed by asbestos abatement professionals.
I'm thinking you might have T&G Sub flooring and a 3/4" finish floor of Southern Pine over the sub-floor or maybe cypress. They might even be quarter sawn if you lucky. Shag Carpet is a product of the 60's 70's so it was most likely put down over some wonderful wood floor just to be in line with the Rage of NASA....and "Modern America"
I had a friend by an old Craftsman Style home with shag carpet they lived in the house for a year. His wife went home to visit her parents for a week and he after a couple of whiskey's side I got to get rid of this shit. What he found was perfectly great strip oak hard wood floors with an intact oil based finish.
Do some more exploring peel back some of that carpet see what you have.
I just had 1,200 square ft of VAT removed from a project. Testing $750.00 Removal $6,680.00. Removal includes testing and removal of all material. They are doing both VAT and asbestos mastic. We are in New England so figure everything is more expensive here.
Jul 24, 15 8:49 pm ·
·
Sarah, why do they wax the floor? The answer varies and I don't think my answer would be the sole answer to this.
There is part pragmatic, part aesthetic, and a part traditional.
EVERYONE: I want to be clear, I am NOT suggesting Sarah uses asbestos material. It is that is something to be mindful of when dealing with existing buildings. I wouldn't suggest her using a product that is basically illegal to use in new construction.
VCT make-up has changed dramatically over the years, including the amount of vinyl used in the concoction from which it's composed. That means it shrinks more, unfortunately. We've had contractors who will now only install tile quarter-turned because it mitigates the effect of the shrinkage. If you lay it all the same direction the opening up of the joints is exacerbated.
we've had better luck in schools lately with Solid Vinyl Tile (SVT), both from a shrinkage and maintenance standpoint. it costs more and is - aesthetically - more limited, but you can make something that looks pretty good if you handle it right.
rubber tile is great, but off-gasses for a while - smells like tires - and looks very different. if VCT is what the owner is expecting, rubber ain't it.
Luxury Vinyl Tile (LVT) falls between VCT and SVT in price. usually used for faux patterns or to get better color ranges/appearances than available in SVT. i've seldom been excited about it, though.
I was about to say that asbestos has been completely banned by the US Federal in building products, but boy, not so. If you look here, 7 products or conditions have been banned, but use in 18 other products, including vinyl floor tile, have not been banned. So I wonder if VCT manufacturers and others have removed it voluntarily or is there still some use of it in their products.
Jul 25, 15 1:08 pm ·
·
Hmm.... interesting. The lawsuits and media attention was enough reason.
I just updated to Yosemite on my Mac. So far so good, although the installation froze up for three hours and I finally had to research online what do to make it un-freeze. Thank heavens for people who are willing to share knowledge!
So far so good, although the graphics are, IMO, a bit childish.
Speaking of: has anyone seen/heard about/participated in this new trend of adult coloring books? I don't get it. It's childish, and who has time to "relax" by coloring? If I have an hour to kill relaxing I'm either going to work on a real drawing or get a massage.
When Abe was little, I'd offer to color with him over whatever other "game" he wanted to do simple because it was easier, but having my own coloring books? No.
I just used a bolt cutter that is literally as long as my leg (I'm 5'-8") to slice through a lock on a locker. Like butter. The right tool for the job!
Had to drop someone off at DFW this morning, I don't think I could loath a place more so than that airport, it's like M.C. Escher and Michael Bay teamed up to design the most confusing/terrifying airport money could buy, AND they're still building on!
OMG you guys. Music is sooooooooo much better at creating community that architecture is. We should be happy to just be able to create a safe, beautiful environment where live music can happen.
(Posting from a Ike Reilly/Cracker show at a dumpy old theater. Had a few bourbons.)
Here is a song about exactly such a fight, sung by Ike (Steven you'll recognize the bridge in the background).
Well yes of course alcohol has something to do with it. But the singing along and dancing, too. And the singular focus in the room, but with music that fills the space physically. And the sense that something unexpected could happen, because it's live.
I'm a huge fan of the way sudden, unexpected events create community. I know I've mentioned here before the time a pigeon dropped out of the sky dead on the Philly sidewalk right between me and a guy walking toward me. That guy and I totally shared a moment of human connection that was awesome.
NO, Sarah! The point is the pigeon had been subject to something neither of us humans witnessed. It surprised us both because it was SO unexpected and unpredictable, and we were joined in witnessing something so strange, just the two of us (it was very early in the morning, as I recall the sidewalk was deserted within proximity except for us).
Donna, I love those little impromptu moments shared between strangers due to strange events.
Similarly, a couple of friends and I were also walking down a Philly sidewalk a couple weeks ago on our way back from a movie, and as another small group was about to pass us two adorable cats walked out of the bushes and sat down directly in our paths. Everybody stopped to pet the cats. We chatted a bit, said goodbye to each other (and to the cats), and moved on. That little interruption made the rest of my day so much brighter!
Thread Central
Loved the flooring in The Whitney, reclaimed heart pine with a light “chalk” finish, looking for a use…..felt like you could just nail something to it.
http://hudson-co.com/reclaimed-heart-pine-chalk-finish
Sarah, I think the elementary gym floor/cafeteria floor you're thinking of is probably vinyl composition tile (VCT). Marmoleum is linoleum tiles, not VCT. You might also look into solid vinyl tiles -- most manufacturer's market it as luxury vinyl tiles (LVT) -- if you are thinking of going the resilient tile flooring route.
Armstrong flooring has some 16 x 16 vinyl tiles that look like marble. I have no idea if they would be suitable or not.
my nephew dropped out of ball state and was working at walmart, got a girl pregnant etc. before he decided to join up. he tried the air force, tested very high but was turned down because he had too many tattoos. he was accepted by the army and became an army ranger. he did two tours in iraq and one in afghanistan where he was nearly blown to bits by an ied. i think two of his comrades were killed. anyway he's home mostly safe. i know he suffered some brain trauma but has a good job with a railroad in california. the cynical part of me thinks that if we still had union jobs in this country he could have made some decent money rather than wrangling shopping carts at a big box parking lot with no future. i think people join up to get out of small town merka.
I suggested forbo because it is "honest". Sarah mentioned boring, carpet and tile, in the same breath, I believe.
As to to vinyl that looks like something else, I'm not sure any architect favors a simulated product over something "real"
vado, they intentionally keep people down to have an all-volunteer military. When there aren't any other choices ...
If there was a draft this shit would stop overnight.
vado, there's nothing cynical about thinking union jobs could improve our current situation!
I once had a drunk soldier feel me up on an airplane en route to a railroad job in California. This was a flight from Indianapolis so he was coming from Atterbury, had been partying all night and was still drunk on our 5:30am flight as he headed west to start a new life. I couldn't even be mad at him because he was so young and was, I think, basically being polite to me by squeezing my thigh. I wonder if it was your nephew, vado?
Sarah, Marmoleum is linoleum, which is made from mainly "natural" materials like cork and linseed oil. The stuff in elementary schools is vinyl - a petroleum product. So it's night and day, really. IMO, Marmoleum (which is a brand name of linoleum - the product is linoleum, and some other manufacturers also make it) isn't trying to be any other material, it is "real enough" to use my guru Michael Benedikt's term.
I've had some bourbon tonight, can you tell?
Your spelling is impeccable...
Obviosly nOT cADDING
Long, long ago there was an Archinecter named Spelling Bee Champ. I recently met this Archinecter, and it was a pleasure. Spelling is important.
Donna,
The stuff used in elementary school can be a variety of materials. In some cases, it is linoleum. In some cases, it is vinyl. In some cases, it is other products. It can be a cement-asbestos tile with a thin vinyl or whatever layer with the decorative pattern or whatever. Sometimes this product is basically that.
Also, the older stuff can even be bonded to the floor by a asbestos containing adhesive.
How lovely that can be.
You know, Richard, I actually rolled my eyes then realized you're right - VCT is vinyl composition tile, not solely vinyl.
The older stuff actually has asbestos IN IT, not just in the adhesive. Those are usually 8x8 rather than 12x12.
True but it existed in all the sizes due to various manufacturers and at one point in time... it was quite pervasive. I was saying it was in the tile not just in the adhesive. Lovely stuff to replace but worth noting in the discussion that the old stuff out there could very well have this stuff and worth being aware of. I work with buildings that can quite often have this stuff.
Honestly, I forgot the acronym VCT and often we think of them by other terms. Some tiles were basically asbestos fibers mixed into a cement mix like the asbestos cement shingles and with a vinyl sheet on the top surface.
Then we had another fun stuff asphalt-asbestos tiles.
Talk about some fun stuff. Pretty much anything (floor tiles) installed pre-1985 should be PACM (Presumed Asbestos Containing Material) unless determined and therefore ACM.
Just because asbestos was banned at some point, it didn't stop being used instantly.
And CAN I just sand a finish the tongue and groove planking? I'm only curious if it's doable. I figure it would be noisy, but just curious if it's even an option.
Still, I haven't learned this much about floor materials since my building systems class!
Richard, you should bring lunch next time.
we'd have to see it sarah. there is a good chance it's a normal decent wood floor that was just covered with carpet. if that's the case it should be pretty painless to just refinish it.
i would advise against using the asbestos tile richard is talking about. it would be pretty hard to source.
Sarah, I mistakenly read your original post. If you already have tongue and groove flooring laid down it would seem all you need to do is sand it down, stain it (if not already stained) and apply some satin or gloss polyurethane finish.( I think satin looks better)
Sarah, the waxing of VCT (and other floors) is done for maintenance. The layer of wax protects the tile and helps with cleaning. Also, almost every facilities person I've met working with schools loves floors looking nice and shiny so they wax and polish them. I think it is a sense of pride thing, like having the nicest looking lawn on the block. It's a touchy subject when you talk about flooring products for a remodel or a new school in the district that aren't generally supposed to be waxed and polished (rubber flooring for example).
While we're throwing out flooring materials for Sarah's consideration ... anyone have any experience with aluminum flooring? Came across a reference for it the other day and had never heard of it.
1st floor gypboard ceiling
2x6 joists
Tongue and groove planking
Assumed substrate per Jerome's comment above
Shag carpet
I'm assuming that the tongue and groove planking is used because plywood hadn't been invented?
And when it comes to schools and floors, it can get rediculous. Ours are being replaced this summer, and instead of really thinking it through, they replaced with like and kind. The wood shop office is getting brand new carpet! They wouldn't even consider bare polished concrete.
The same reason people wax their cars. It keeps liquids from penetrating into the material and permanently 'staining' the material. It also helps stuff not get embedded and bonded into the material to such a level that it becomes very difficult to remove.
Basically E_I said it. People who run facilities wants spotless and a lot of facility custodians wants to keep their jobs so they have to do what it takes to keep it clean and as 'new' looking as possible. In some places, there is a high standard. If your floor tile is light color, you can see dirt and all. Pride is also a part of it, too.
Sarah, you can use wood as well. Often, wood floors are waxed as well. The reason is for finish and shininess. That 'new' look. This is all part of maintenance. Waxing doesn't necessarily have to be done every month. This would be done during winter break and summer break and maybe spring break as well if they budget for it all. The wood would often have a finish and stain which would only be sanded once in decade(s) time frame. remember, sanding makes the wood thinner so you have to be mindful of that. In reference to Volunteer's comment, Sanding/buffing just the wax layer is one thing. Sanding to re-apply new stain and all that stuff is another. This is done when they want to keep the facility looking new even after several decades of use.
curtkram,
I don't think you'll find new VCT that contains asbestos. They are something to think about when working with existing buildings. There is certainly a touchy discussion about removing them.
Sarah, I see your point. I would call the owner of a flooring company in your town to come out an have a look. He probably has seen your type of flooring construction elsewhere in town and can tell you what your options are. He should not charge anything for a visit and consultation.
richard,
asbestos becomes a problem when it's broken up. they call it 'friable.' when it breaks you can breathe in the dust which is what leads to mesothelioma. if you find asbestos tile or mastic in your house, it's usually best to not break it up and breathe the dust, which means leave it were it is and install the new vct over it.
asbestos insulation should be safely removed by people who remove asbestos insulation.
asbestos condoms should be removed immediately after sex.
Ouch. OUCH.
curtkram,
Yes. As design professionals, we should be aware of best practices procedures. Thanks for adding to the point. I know asbestos is a 'friable'.
I work with historic buildings and other existing buildings so I need to be aware of this stuff including lead based paint and other lead containing products that can potentially be friable.
Asbestos should be removed by asbestos abatement professionals.
Lead based condoms are the worst, you can't feel anything, and they take so long to trasnfer heat.
Sarah,
I'm thinking you might have T&G Sub flooring and a 3/4" finish floor of Southern Pine over the sub-floor or maybe cypress. They might even be quarter sawn if you lucky.
Shag Carpet is a product of the 60's 70's so it was most likely put down over some wonderful wood floor just to be in line with the Rage of NASA....and "Modern America"
I had a friend by an old Craftsman Style home with shag carpet they lived in the house for a year. His wife went home to visit her parents for a week and he after a couple of whiskey's side I got to get rid of this shit. What he found was perfectly great strip oak hard wood floors with an intact oil based finish.
Do some more exploring peel back some of that carpet see what you have.
I just had 1,200 square ft of VAT removed from a project. Testing $750.00 Removal $6,680.00. Removal includes testing and removal of all material. They are doing both VAT and asbestos mastic. We are in New England so figure everything is more expensive here.
Sarah, why do they wax the floor? The answer varies and I don't think my answer would be the sole answer to this.
There is part pragmatic, part aesthetic, and a part traditional.
EVERYONE: I want to be clear, I am NOT suggesting Sarah uses asbestos material. It is that is something to be mindful of when dealing with existing buildings. I wouldn't suggest her using a product that is basically illegal to use in new construction.
VCT make-up has changed dramatically over the years, including the amount of vinyl used in the concoction from which it's composed. That means it shrinks more, unfortunately. We've had contractors who will now only install tile quarter-turned because it mitigates the effect of the shrinkage. If you lay it all the same direction the opening up of the joints is exacerbated.
we've had better luck in schools lately with Solid Vinyl Tile (SVT), both from a shrinkage and maintenance standpoint. it costs more and is - aesthetically - more limited, but you can make something that looks pretty good if you handle it right.
rubber tile is great, but off-gasses for a while - smells like tires - and looks very different. if VCT is what the owner is expecting, rubber ain't it.
Luxury Vinyl Tile (LVT) falls between VCT and SVT in price. usually used for faux patterns or to get better color ranges/appearances than available in SVT. i've seldom been excited about it, though.
I was about to say that asbestos has been completely banned by the US Federal in building products, but boy, not so. If you look here, 7 products or conditions have been banned, but use in 18 other products, including vinyl floor tile, have not been banned. So I wonder if VCT manufacturers and others have removed it voluntarily or is there still some use of it in their products.
Hmm.... interesting. The lawsuits and media attention was enough reason.
Well, we still drink aspartame...
asbestos is dangerous when it's broken up and you breathe the dust
if you don't breathe the dust, it's not dangerous.
I just updated to Yosemite on my Mac. So far so good, although the installation froze up for three hours and I finally had to research online what do to make it un-freeze. Thank heavens for people who are willing to share knowledge!
So far so good, although the graphics are, IMO, a bit childish.
Speaking of: has anyone seen/heard about/participated in this new trend of adult coloring books? I don't get it. It's childish, and who has time to "relax" by coloring? If I have an hour to kill relaxing I'm either going to work on a real drawing or get a massage.
Yosemite graphics are awful, a lesson in bad design. Go to settings/accessibility/display and increase contrast to make it more legible.
If you don't have a job- spending an hour with a coloring book might not be the worst way to spend your time
I just used a bolt cutter that is literally as long as my leg (I'm 5'-8") to slice through a lock on a locker. Like butter. The right tool for the job!
right tool for the job
Boston's Olympic bid is kaput. hey LA, the USOC has a bridge they'd like to sell you...
Had to drop someone off at DFW this morning, I don't think I could loath a place more so than that airport, it's like M.C. Escher and Michael Bay teamed up to design the most confusing/terrifying airport money could buy, AND they're still building on!
My wife and her girlfriends just love colouring books!
^^Uhhh... I'm Sorry?
Freedom Pyramid.
more like this-
(Posting from a Ike Reilly/Cracker show at a dumpy old theater. Had a few bourbons.)
Alcohol is sooooooooo much better at creating community that architecture is.
Until the fights break out.
Here is a song about exactly such a fight, sung by Ike (Steven you'll recognize the bridge in the background).
Well yes of course alcohol has something to do with it. But the singing along and dancing, too. And the singular focus in the room, but with music that fills the space physically. And the sense that something unexpected could happen, because it's live.
I'm a huge fan of the way sudden, unexpected events create community. I know I've mentioned here before the time a pigeon dropped out of the sky dead on the Philly sidewalk right between me and a guy walking toward me. That guy and I totally shared a moment of human connection that was awesome.
NO, Sarah! The point is the pigeon had been subject to something neither of us humans witnessed. It surprised us both because it was SO unexpected and unpredictable, and we were joined in witnessing something so strange, just the two of us (it was very early in the morning, as I recall the sidewalk was deserted within proximity except for us).
Donna, I love those little impromptu moments shared between strangers due to strange events.
Similarly, a couple of friends and I were also walking down a Philly sidewalk a couple weeks ago on our way back from a movie, and as another small group was about to pass us two adorable cats walked out of the bushes and sat down directly in our paths. Everybody stopped to pet the cats. We chatted a bit, said goodbye to each other (and to the cats), and moved on. That little interruption made the rest of my day so much brighter!
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