Donna, you're confusing cynicism with something else. Cynicism has nothing to do with warning people that architecture is a difficult career path. The thing you are confusing it with does.
Maybe it would be better to describe a career in architecture as being so busy that you have to turn down major commissions, so successful that submissive clients worship at your feet, with streets paved with gold ... now THAT would be cynical.
Donna, a hurdle is a challenge to overcome, like the one that old Chicago architect set for you. You rose to the challenge. Would it have been better or easier for you if he had painted a rosy picture?
For the record, I'm a cynical optimist. My cup is half full of shit.
1. an inclination to believe that people are motivated purely by self-interest; skepticism
I'm sorry, but when Donna calls the architect who gave her advice, or people here passing off advice, in the guise of being helpful - while not being helpful - it is cynical. If you are still practicing architecture, while selling the profession short, you're clearly a cynic.
I know rationalist, instead of staying in architecture, and be miserable left to find a career that brings her more joy.
Some people start in other careers, and come to architecture, despite having people they know practice in the profession, and then shit on it when they practice, are they masochists if they stay? Or just deranged?
I recently went to a panel of art school graduates who are artists (voice over / tv writing / painting / casting) from one of my alma maters. They all talked about the tremendous luck they've had and the hardships, each quoted one of the faculty that told his students "if you can imagine yourself doing anything else with your life, do that; but if not, this might be the thing to pursue." Now I think architecture is far more forgiving, on the other hand, it's best to love what you do. Fortunately, I've had the luck of working with mostly people that love what we do. I find it helpful to ask a lot of these students to see why they want to be an architect - some are clearly wanting something else, but others might find it in them to grind their way until finding their niche. No harm in that.
beta, the funny thing is I found my way halfway back, and am working at an architecture firm again, just in a different role. Couldn't manage to get very far away at all. I'm probably addicted. I still get giddy seeing buildings go up, when I get to be on site for an installation it's always one of the best days for me.
I do agree that there's a lot of masochism in architecture though, actually in the creative professions in general.
Cynicism has nothing to do with warning people that architecture is a difficult career path. If you want to warn someone that architecture is a difficult career path, you can do so in a way that is helpful, that attempts to educate, that gives them something to ponder. Dropping a one-liner of snark just makes you look like an asshole, or like a drunk guy at a wedding who's so unhappy with his own life choices that he has to poor his half-full cup of shit over every young optimist who walks by for his own edification. That's not cynical, it's pitiful.
Curt, with regard to "miserable", I think some of the misery about the profession comes from those who are having difficulty navigating life & career and blame it on the profession....I tried to be careful not to do that... that's what I meant.
This thing about recommending that people not enter the profession because of low pay (and other reasons) is misguided.... our "profession" is an inanimate object.... it's up to each individual to make good with it... fly over it, under it, around it and to make the best of it.... architecture isn't a Chevrolet transmission plant where you enter after high school... let the union take care of everything and exit at age 48 with a full pension... you have to get-it, grab-it and do your own navigating... many can't do that and are dismayed at the result.... it's just too variable to recommend to that degree....2,000 architects....2,000 different outcomes.... but more needs to be done to explain the world before we enter into it... nothing wrong with doing that.
For me? What is "success" really? It was just very hard for me...a guy built for a Chevy plant wanting to be an architect made it tough... did get that fly rod though and God willing enough time to use it, to get the flies out of my head.
You nailed it b3ta, my motivation is to eliminate competition. LOL!
Donna, nice dodge to my previous question. Also, I did them something to ponder, and as stated previously, anyone with real interest and half a brain would ask why. But I guess you'd prefer that I write a book for every person who asks the same question here - people who aren't even clever enough to use the search function or even browse a couple pages of the forum where they would no doubt find the exact same question posed repeatedly.
Actually, anyone with half a brain wouldn't go anonymously trolling the net looking for life advice. That's pretty much the definition of stupid. But don't let that stop you from spoon feeding everyone who comes here and lambasting those who don't.
No, actually, I think you're motivated by your own self-interest; listening to yourself talk.
Funny thing, whenever I see these threads start, I generally don't say anything about them, because I think they too could find the answers by searching their souls, or search the archives, or listen to fake architects, writing terse, unhelpful bullshit, while "practicing" as a learned professional.
Or, the fake architects could take a lesson, and post even shorter pieces, and not post at all. Saving us all the time of reading their duplicitous, self-interested ass-hattery.
Now, you charlatan epigones, perhaps you should go back into your Hampton mansion, and listen to your Phillip Glass on your B&O stereo, while sipping fucking merlot from your silk slipper.
...anyone with real interest and half a brain would ask why. But I guess you'd prefer that I write a book for every person who asks the same question here.
No, I'd prefer that if you didn't have anything meaningful to contribute you shut the hell up. Here's some why questions for you: Why do you need to piss on everyone's parade, Miles? Why do you think davvid called you a ruiner? Ask yourself why, maybe.
Because there isn’t actually any difference between doing something nice for someone because you are naturally saintly and perfect, and doing something nice for someone because you are secretly demonic and trying to cover it up.
Quondam/Rita Novel/Lauf/fineprint/Wolfhildevonschlittenfarht, if you read the link, it says there is no difference in the perception of the person receiving the kindness whether you are committing the kindness out of true kindness or not. Whether some nebulous deceit hangs in the air like a cloud is of no difference to the person benefitting from the act.
If I save a puppy from a burning building to impress Brad Pitt, who happens to be standing by, does the puppy care?
Question is: would Brad Pitt save YOU from the burning building that stupidly ran into to impress him. ....unless we're just talking a bit of smoke, and not towering inferno...
What's funny here is a typical internet-fight comment at this point would be "No, Quondam, why don't you tell us all how many times I "bend things to my own benefit"?!?" Because that's the way internet fights go: grandstanding and challenges to look up what I've said in the past as a way of proving that one is getting attention (yes, I do this too, we all do).
But that's pitiful, because Quondam actually *would* go through his records and be able to catalogue and recreate all my comments, ever, by date, cross-referenced to whatever CAD mash-up he did that day 15 years ago. Because Quondam can't have a discussion right now, in this moment, because all he concerns himself with is the past, which is all re-enactments of stuff he was the first one to ever do anyway.
Did you ever notice how you never answer anyone else's questions, Quondam, but then get all huffy and put-upon and dramatic when people ignore yours?
You guys can start calling me Mr. Furious, and Quondam plays the role of The Sphinx:
Mr Furious: Okay, am I the only one who finds these sayings just a little bit formulaic? "If you want to push something down, you have to pull it up. If you want to go left, you have to go right." It's...
The Sphinx: Your temper is very quick, my friend. But until you learn to master your rage...
Mr Furious: ...your rage will become your master? That's what you were going to say. Right? Right?
Ah, well given time stamps that does seem plausible.
Red letter day, everyone, fineprint made a statement, not an accusation, not a re-phrasing of a previous poster's comment, and it appears verifiably to exist in the context of the discussion!
Also, Quondam, given that you told me to never email you ever again you sure are paying a lot of attention to what I'm posting here. I kinda thought we were done communicating?
Apparently I've hurt Quondam The Duplicitous in the past, and made his life horrible, so horrible in fact, his contributions have increased tenfold. Lauf The Fineprint is probably correct, he has one account that he posts under, that's because his other accounts have been deep sixed. Maybe that's because Quondam The Creator involved himself in things that had nothing to do with Steven.
Actually, given the link, it seems like a marketing bot.
What about Quondam? What about Wolfhilde von schlittenfart? What about Rita Novel? Are those accounts all dead (those are the only ones I remember at the moment).
Which technically, according to your emails to me, you did actually do.
Which means: That's really shameful of you. You're just lying now, and the only purpose of your lie is to do damage to me. And that's the type of person I've come to see you as.
The question belonged to me as much as to Paul would never, ever hold up in court, and I'm not a lawyer but I've watched enough TV in my life to know that!
Whatever, I'll stop. You don't have to answer that question, since we all already know the answer. This has been fun, Quondam, but fun in a frustrating way because it's always a zero sum game with you, and I have no doubt you have more stamina for it than I do.
I'm in Asheville NC today, which is an exciting and lovely city - moreso every time I visit.
We left two restaurants today because they weren't quite what we were looking for - something I've never done before - but happened upon a *fantastic* restaurant on the third try. Obviously it was meant to be.
oh, footnote of fantastical statements, go back to telling us how you discovered the second engraving of Campo Marzio, you at least had something interesting to claim.
New topic: archiphil, or philarch, (I can't remember which lives in Philly and loves beer) have you had the Barrel trolley Nut Brown out of Rochester? They're selling it down here in Texas, and it's pretty easy and good for super market beer. Just wondering what Yankees think if it.
Also, I'm thinking of going back to church. Maybe. The episcopal church in town has a cool building. Is it wrong to choose your faith based on architecture?
Test the waters before finding a church to settle down in Sarah. Which pastors stick with you? Which pastors don't? Do you enjoy the overall atmosphere of the church? Do you enjoy worship there? What about the people? Do you agree with the messages being preached? I go to a non-denominational Christian church. I love it there; there's no real quirks or tweaks on scriptures that throw me off like in some denominations.
Me and 17 other students from my school had the opportunity to visit a Ted talks event yesterday for free. One speaker that stood out was Jason McClennan, a leading architect in a movement towards not only sustainable architecture, but zero emissions architecture. He played a major role in the designing of the bullet building in Seattle, a six story office building which runs off of solar energy in one of the least sunny cities, perhaps on the planet. Surprisingly, it's net positive. I was impressed. I hope I'm given the opportunity to go again next year.
Thread Central
Donna, you're confusing cynicism with something else. Cynicism has nothing to do with warning people that architecture is a difficult career path. The thing you are confusing it with does.
Maybe it would be better to describe a career in architecture as being so busy that you have to turn down major commissions, so successful that submissive clients worship at your feet, with streets paved with gold ... now THAT would be cynical.
Donna, a hurdle is a challenge to overcome, like the one that old Chicago architect set for you. You rose to the challenge. Would it have been better or easier for you if he had painted a rosy picture?
For the record, I'm a cynical optimist. My cup is half full of shit.
cyn·i·cism
ˈsinəˌsizəm/
noun
noun: cynicism; noun: Cynicism
1. an inclination to believe that people are motivated purely by self-interest; skepticism
I'm sorry, but when Donna calls the architect who gave her advice, or people here passing off advice, in the guise of being helpful - while not being helpful - it is cynical. If you are still practicing architecture, while selling the profession short, you're clearly a cynic.
I know rationalist, instead of staying in architecture, and be miserable left to find a career that brings her more joy.
Some people start in other careers, and come to architecture, despite having people they know practice in the profession, and then shit on it when they practice, are they masochists if they stay? Or just deranged?
I recently went to a panel of art school graduates who are artists (voice over / tv writing / painting / casting) from one of my alma maters. They all talked about the tremendous luck they've had and the hardships, each quoted one of the faculty that told his students "if you can imagine yourself doing anything else with your life, do that; but if not, this might be the thing to pursue." Now I think architecture is far more forgiving, on the other hand, it's best to love what you do. Fortunately, I've had the luck of working with mostly people that love what we do. I find it helpful to ask a lot of these students to see why they want to be an architect - some are clearly wanting something else, but others might find it in them to grind their way until finding their niche. No harm in that.
beta, the funny thing is I found my way halfway back, and am working at an architecture firm again, just in a different role. Couldn't manage to get very far away at all. I'm probably addicted. I still get giddy seeing buildings go up, when I get to be on site for an installation it's always one of the best days for me.
I do agree that there's a lot of masochism in architecture though, actually in the creative professions in general.
Cynicism has nothing to do with warning people that architecture is a difficult career path. If you want to warn someone that architecture is a difficult career path, you can do so in a way that is helpful, that attempts to educate, that gives them something to ponder. Dropping a one-liner of snark just makes you look like an asshole, or like a drunk guy at a wedding who's so unhappy with his own life choices that he has to poor his half-full cup of shit over every young optimist who walks by for his own edification. That's not cynical, it's pitiful.
Curt, with regard to "miserable", I think some of the misery about the profession comes from those who are having difficulty navigating life & career and blame it on the profession....I tried to be careful not to do that... that's what I meant.
This thing about recommending that people not enter the profession because of low pay (and other reasons) is misguided.... our "profession" is an inanimate object.... it's up to each individual to make good with it... fly over it, under it, around it and to make the best of it.... architecture isn't a Chevrolet transmission plant where you enter after high school... let the union take care of everything and exit at age 48 with a full pension... you have to get-it, grab-it and do your own navigating... many can't do that and are dismayed at the result.... it's just too variable to recommend to that degree....2,000 architects....2,000 different outcomes.... but more needs to be done to explain the world before we enter into it... nothing wrong with doing that.
For me? What is "success" really? It was just very hard for me...a guy built for a Chevy plant wanting to be an architect made it tough... did get that fly rod though and God willing enough time to use it, to get the flies out of my head.
You nailed it b3ta, my motivation is to eliminate competition. LOL!
Donna, nice dodge to my previous question. Also, I did them something to ponder, and as stated previously, anyone with real interest and half a brain would ask why. But I guess you'd prefer that I write a book for every person who asks the same question here - people who aren't even clever enough to use the search function or even browse a couple pages of the forum where they would no doubt find the exact same question posed repeatedly.
Actually, anyone with half a brain wouldn't go anonymously trolling the net looking for life advice. That's pretty much the definition of stupid. But don't let that stop you from spoon feeding everyone who comes here and lambasting those who don't.
No, actually, I think you're motivated by your own self-interest; listening to yourself talk.
Funny thing, whenever I see these threads start, I generally don't say anything about them, because I think they too could find the answers by searching their souls, or search the archives, or listen to fake architects, writing terse, unhelpful bullshit, while "practicing" as a learned professional.
Or, the fake architects could take a lesson, and post even shorter pieces, and not post at all. Saving us all the time of reading their duplicitous, self-interested ass-hattery.
Now, you charlatan epigones, perhaps you should go back into your Hampton mansion, and listen to your Phillip Glass on your B&O stereo, while sipping fucking merlot from your silk slipper.
"epigones" again, if we use it enough you think it will be a common word in architecture?
da fuck happen here?
time for my patented squirrel contribution:
...anyone with real interest and half a brain would ask why. But I guess you'd prefer that I write a book for every person who asks the same question here.
No, I'd prefer that if you didn't have anything meaningful to contribute you shut the hell up. Here's some why questions for you: Why do you need to piss on everyone's parade, Miles? Why do you think davvid called you a ruiner? Ask yourself why, maybe.
b3ta, the voice of reason, hahahaha. Maybe I should quote some of your posts here.
Donna, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you were the one who decides what's meaningful.
It's okay Miles, I am comfortable with you quoting me, just provide context. I'd quote you, but I think we have your posts committed to memory.
Please let that work....
Sarah: you are brilliant. I don't think Non Sequitur intended the Spinal Tap joke, or did you. Non? In any case, hilarious.
Neil Gaiman: Dear Neil, I am a horrible person.
Because there isn’t actually any difference between doing something nice for someone because you are naturally saintly and perfect, and doing something nice for someone because you are secretly demonic and trying to cover it up.
well, now that Lauf has joined the discussion, we can all go home, because Lauf invented that too.
WELCOME! Which of my fantastic rants against you, will you post today, and under which pseudonym?
Quondam/Rita Novel/Lauf/fineprint/Wolfhildevonschlittenfarht, if you read the link, it says there is no difference in the perception of the person receiving the kindness whether you are committing the kindness out of true kindness or not. Whether some nebulous deceit hangs in the air like a cloud is of no difference to the person benefitting from the act.
If I save a puppy from a burning building to impress Brad Pitt, who happens to be standing by, does the puppy care?
What's funny here is a typical internet-fight comment at this point would be "No, Quondam, why don't you tell us all how many times I "bend things to my own benefit"?!?" Because that's the way internet fights go: grandstanding and challenges to look up what I've said in the past as a way of proving that one is getting attention (yes, I do this too, we all do).
But that's pitiful, because Quondam actually *would* go through his records and be able to catalogue and recreate all my comments, ever, by date, cross-referenced to whatever CAD mash-up he did that day 15 years ago. Because Quondam can't have a discussion right now, in this moment, because all he concerns himself with is the past, which is all re-enactments of stuff he was the first one to ever do anyway.
Did you ever notice how you never answer anyone else's questions, Quondam, but then get all huffy and put-upon and dramatic when people ignore yours?
IS THERE a fight going on here? I don't have time to read back and wade through it but time to quit.
Because: spring finally.
You guys can start calling me Mr. Furious, and Quondam plays the role of The Sphinx:
Mr Furious: Okay, am I the only one who finds these sayings just a little bit formulaic? "If you want to push something down, you have to pull it up. If you want to go left, you have to go right." It's...
The Sphinx: Your temper is very quick, my friend. But until you learn to master your rage...
Mr Furious: ...your rage will become your master? That's what you were going to say. Right? Right?
The Sphinx: Not necessarily...
(From the movie Mystery Men.)
i thought this place was the snark escape hatch on archinect. Don't let it get out of hand.
Not a falsehood, Quondam: Look above where you demand that beta answer your question two posts after he already has.
Sorry, I suppose it *is* a falsehood in your world, because you bend things to suit your own benefit, as do we all, apparently.
Now add austin-tayshus to your list of Quondam's pseudonyms, everyone.
Ah, well given time stamps that does seem plausible.
Red letter day, everyone, fineprint made a statement, not an accusation, not a re-phrasing of a previous poster's comment, and it appears verifiably to exist in the context of the discussion!
Also, Quondam, given that you told me to never email you ever again you sure are paying a lot of attention to what I'm posting here. I kinda thought we were done communicating?
Oh please. It's exactly the kind of punny name you would come up with, and someone who just registered an account to make that one comment.
fineprint of fantasies: are you also austin-tayshus, yes or no?
Actually, given the link, it seems like a marketing bot.
What about Quondam? What about Wolfhilde von schlittenfart? What about Rita Novel? Are those accounts all dead (those are the only ones I remember at the moment).
not quondam here. just an observer.
i want one bourbon, one scotch, one beer
Which technically, according to your emails to me, you did actually do.
Which means: That's really shameful of you. You're just lying now, and the only purpose of your lie is to do damage to me. And that's the type of person I've come to see you as.
I *know* you're deceptive because I *know* you shared private emails on the forum, which you said you did not.
Who's "bending things" now, Quondam?
The question belonged to me as much as to Paul would never, ever hold up in court, and I'm not a lawyer but I've watched enough TV in my life to know that!
Whatever, I'll stop. You don't have to answer that question, since we all already know the answer. This has been fun, Quondam, but fun in a frustrating way because it's always a zero sum game with you, and I have no doubt you have more stamina for it than I do.
Well you're being very discreet about how you're explaining it, fineprint, which I do appreciate. It's very empathetic of you.
I'm in Asheville NC today, which is an exciting and lovely city - moreso every time I visit.
We left two restaurants today because they weren't quite what we were looking for - something I've never done before - but happened upon a *fantastic* restaurant on the third try. Obviously it was meant to be.
Then we hit the chocolate cafe and walked a lot.
well, if you don't start drinking I am going to leave
well, I got my $1 worth on the Juke box
the philosophy of George Thorohgood and the Destroyers
one bourbon, one scotch, one beer
If You Don't Start Drinking (I'm Gonna Leave)
and guess what the next track is on his greatest hits album is!
Treat her right...
It's okay Steven Rita Nouvlauf, I doubt you're even real. Despite your American Bald Eagle siting.
oh, footnote of fantastical statements, go back to telling us how you discovered the second engraving of Campo Marzio, you at least had something interesting to claim.
Me and 17 other students from my school had the opportunity to visit a Ted talks event yesterday for free. One speaker that stood out was Jason McClennan, a leading architect in a movement towards not only sustainable architecture, but zero emissions architecture. He played a major role in the designing of the bullet building in Seattle, a six story office building which runs off of solar energy in one of the least sunny cities, perhaps on the planet. Surprisingly, it's net positive. I was impressed. I hope I'm given the opportunity to go again next year.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.