I would watch the Infrastructure movie, if it starred Edward Norton ordering structural inspections, over and over and over and over...hoo boy. I *personally* do think infrastructure is sexy anyway; toss in Edward Norton and oh my.
vado I drove my little droptop fun car (not a Porsche) with the top down today, because it's my daily driver and it's sunny (and 30 degrees!).
Yeah Carrera, we've got our share of flippers here for sure. I had to explain to a real estate agent that I specifically did not want to look at anything "newly renovated." She couldn't understand that I didn't want to pay for someone to have painted it a terrible color, or to rip out perfectly fine vintage cabinets and replace them with new particle board just so they could say "new kitchen!" I am very capable both as a designer and as a DIYer—I'd rather do it right myself than pay for someone else to have done it badly.
if you're going to fix up the house then sell it, ultimately you can't really sell for more than the neighbor's house right? doesn't matter how hard you work. doesn't matter how good of a job you do (up to a point). i'm sure there is a fair bit of room to choose nicer materials or to take a longer time frame to do it right if you're willing to cut your profits a little, but as far as i know, you can't really price yourself out of a neighborhood.
of course you're working with lakefront properties, so an old rotted out building might have a lot of upside potential. or, like you mentioned earlier, you're only buying the lot. the $95,000 split level isn't going to get much value added, no matter what you do.
it's not about money, but it seems pretty obvious that erika and leonard have a bit more if it to spend right?
Rational & Curt, for some reason I like this one, just can’t find this kind of thing where I’m from….know the original owner who built it for $1 million in 1986, everything is custom and only lived there for a few years. This house has been for sale for its entire life with only one additional owner since who bought it for $605,000 in 2000. Put it up for sale 2 years ago for $795,000 and just dropped the price to $695,000 The problem is the whole village is full of $100/SF comps which puts this one at $429,200 Learned from the world of idiots that a countertop is a countertop and nobody cares that you flew to India to pick out the granite. Fill up the tub because somebody else is going to take a bath on this one.
“Erika & Leonard” types will push the envelope with a purchase with limitations…they want all the good things we do….houzz is full of those types clamoring to capture the magic…you just need to deliver it without going to India.
i just worked on a project with a skylight like that. i think the building was built early 80s probably. one side was like brown, from years of various sorts of weather and whatnot, the other remained fairly clear.
$400,000 is still well outside of my price range. buy countertops from india if you want countertops from india, but if you live in a neighborhood with $400,000 houses, you just aren't going to have a million dollar house. it wasn't a bad decisions for the homeowners to build a million dollar house if that's where they wanted to live, and if they had a million dollars to piss away, but if their goal was to create some sort of investment income/nestegg or to raise the value of the neighborhood, they probably have more money than sense right?
There's is no doubt that this is entertainment based culture. I've used the concept myself a couple of times on the media stage with the hope of delivering a message. Nobody wants to hear a rant, at least nobody with half a brain (which explains Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Beck, etc.). But Stewart preaches to the choir for laughs, which not only makes his "information" dubious (and as often as not it is for various reasons) as well as belittling it. We we laughed at the funny, we don't have to do anything else, next joke, please.
The best way to put comedy news in perspective is to watch Stewart's interview on Crossfire, which apparently got that show cancelled.
well in case anyone was curious on the resolution of my situation... I went in and talked for about an hour to my boss, his boss, and her boss, and calmly laid out the situation for each piece of the project that's still in progress, why it's not on schedule, etc. The upshot is that they're supporting me, none of them are blaming anyone internally, and we're routing all communications from here on out through the one guy the client likes but not changing any team structure otherwise because we're thisclose to being done. They did say that they won't take contracts of this nature again... guess only time will tell whether that's the truth or just lip service.
Miles, I pretty much never do residential (except for hopefully someday soonish, my own). Since I switched over to environmental graphics a few years ago, residential clients don't really avail themselves of my services. I think the guy in favor will remain so, as he's had a multi-year relationship with the client and has survived this long. If handling the communication on the graphics portion of the job broke such a long standing relationship so quickly, it would be really telling of what an impossible spot we've been put in.
I'm scheduled to look at a home built in 1960, today. I created this thread to give me, and others, pointers on what to look for so I don't plunk good money down on a complete tear-down. I figured Miles and Snook, especially, would be helpful.
OH MY GDFG! We were scheduled to look at a house, and I was prepared with rain boots, tape measure, and screwdriver, and it just came in that there is already a cash offer on the house. It only went on the market yesterday, and it's only 1,000 sf, and a 1960s piece of crap, I'm sure, but it was in our price range, and closeish to where we want to live, so we were hoping. This is impossible. I want to cry, throw my phone, throw a fit, give up, all of it.
@snooker very nice Goff. Also Sarah sorry to hear. Re: the link (not sure on smartphone) but should be an archival map/encyclopedia of Minnesotan excellence in design.
For the artificial grass guy. Goff used it on the eaves of this house, the color was bright orange. Unfortunately there was a fire at this property a number of years ago and I'm not sure what survived.
Sarah, Remember the cost of the house is directly related to the neighborhood. If the neighborhood has a chance of getting better it would be a good investment. If it is swinging in the other direction you might be tossing your money away. However if it is close to work and other day to day activities you will be saving money by not spending money to get from point a to point b on a day to day basis. Your realtor should have some comps in the neighbor hood, so you should do a drive by and see what it looks like. Never ever by the most expensive property in the neighborhood cause you will overpay for it. As my wealthy ex-father in law a realtor as said, " Location, Location, Location."
Sarah, whenever I dive into one and get disappointed I’m always shocked to find something else that’s better….it’s a gift we have, of seeing things that nobody else does…pays to be a fickled girlfriend with lots of boyfriends.
Todd Williams Billie Tsien Associates. They're heroes to me:
For us, elevations are always the last part of a building to be developed. Often we are at the end of design development before we even begin to rough out the elevations. This is because elevation drawings close down the process of questioning by making the image of the building too clear, too “graspable” and therefore too final. Clients, magazines, in fact, we as architects and human beings, all want an easy and clear answer. But it is better not to provide one before the interior habitation and the structure of the building has been given enough time to develop as the logic for the facade...This position of “not knowing a priori” is antithetical to the general model of the architect as hero. This is a damaging model because it discourages the slowness of process that comes from the patient search. Certainty is a prison.
They paint Ingels as a combination of The Great OZ and Walt Disney, but by the end of the article they get a little realistic with some discussion of the long term consequences of rising sea levels and the long term, 50-100+ year, effectiveness of a levy system. What will it mean for the existence of Manhattan in the future? With the huge income gap in NYC will it matter to most people of the future anyway? At the rate in which the lower and middle classes are being priced out of Manhattan it'll be some kind of 1%'r mecca in a few years, which begs the question, who is this project for? The test is to see if it does get built as planned, or is stripped down to a functional barrier with public spaces, but not the Disneyland-like amenities proposed. The gushing over BIG's "zany" ideas is a bit off-putting, but a decent article overall.
This idea just came into my mind... Is it possible to have a script done to automatically URL the names of famous architects and buildings/projects? Maybe just linked to an image only?
For example:
"About halfway through reading The Guardian's write up on BIG's "dryline" and I think I'm gonna hurl."
"Shook Kelley is a coalition of passionate thinkers that use strategy and design to challenge conventional wisdom and advance some of the worlds greatest and most recognized brands...we help entities that rely on physical places and spaces to reach their greater potential through meaningful human experiences. We accomplish this by using an atypical process involving a unique network of disciplines...to radically reconsider the ways in which the great value exchange can happen between people and product providers"
The Stasis Foundation / Stephen Valentine Architect is seeking a qualified planner-designer for a 650 acre parcel for the development of a biotechnology research park... will be a world-class biotech facility located in Comfort, (near San Antonio), Texas. There are two parts to the primary mission to the Stasis Research Park: biotech research and the cryostorage of biological materials. The design and development of cooling systems and devices for the cryopreservation & cryostorage of human organs for transplantation purposes , materials to support fertility; tissue for regenerative medicine; DNA, including the DNA of near extinct species; whole mammalian organisms including humans after legal death for whom all medical procedures have failed.
The second one includes housing on-site in a studio environment, presumably at regular human habitation temperatures.
I read the one for the biotech, and it's not clear if it's the architect driving the whole thing? Look at their website, more than biotech it's all about the building and the architect....
I think the architect is being an entrepreneur in designing and marketing a cryogenic facility. That's my guess. Could be an interesting and different project to work on, but I'm not interested in that level of prolonging life. Why would you *want* to live forever? I'd see it as a burden.
Not "us", but think of the forbes list of billionaires that don't know what to do with their money in their lifetime and their kids and grand kids lifetime; imagine the koch's living for 250 years, hahaha, sorry, I couldn't resist.
Yes, Frei Otto, well deserved. And then you have this "Although the prize is for a lifetime of achievement, the jury hopes Mr. Gehry will view it as encouragement for continuing an extraordinary "work in progress," as well as for his significant contributions thus far to the architecture of the twentieth century" Thus far......
The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings but shorter tempers, wider Freeways, but narrower viewpoints. We spend more, but have less, we buy more, but enjoy less. We have bigger houses and smaller families, more conveniences, but less time. We have more degrees but less sense, more knowledge, but less judgment, more experts, yet more problems, more medicine, but less wellness.
We drink too much, smoke too much, spend too recklessly, laugh too little, drive too fast, get too angry, stay up too late, get up too tired, read too little, watch TV too much, and pray too seldom.
We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often.
We've learned how to make a living, but not a life. We've added years to life not life to years. We've been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble crossing the street to meet a new neighbor. We conquered outer space but not inner space. We've done larger things, but not better things.
We've cleaned up the air, but polluted the soul. We've conquered the atom, but not our prejudice. We write more, but learn less. We plan more, but accomplish less. We've learned to rush, but not to wait. We build more computers to hold more information, to produce more copies than ever, but we communicate less and less.
These are the times of fast foods and slow digestion, big men and small character, steep profits and shallow relationships. These are the days of two incomes but more divorce, fancier houses, but broken homes. These are days of quick trips, disposable diapers, throwaway morality, one night stands, overweight bodies, and pills that do everything from cheer, to quiet, to kill. It is a time when there is much in the showroom window and nothing in the stockroom. A time when technology can bring this letter to you, and a time when you can choose either to share this insight, or to just hit delete.
Remember to spend some time with your loved ones, because they are not going to be around forever.
Remember, say a kind word to someone who looks up to you in awe, because that little person soon will grow up and leave your side.
Remember, to give a warm hug to the one next to you, because that is the only treasure you can give with your heart and it doesn't cost a cent.
Remember, to say, 'I love you' to your partner and your loved ones, but most of all mean it. A kiss and an embrace will mend hurt when it comes from deep inside of you.
Remember to hold hands and cherish the moment for someday that person will not be there again.
Give time to love, give time to speak! And give time to share the precious thoughts in your mind.
And always remember, life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by those moments that take our breath away.
"I hate neoclassical, and traditional architecture, on its face, it's the sign of repressed and devolved mind. I'd rather see Frei Otto win the Pritzker, than some hack."
that's the paradox of the time now carrera. i've never had a 'boy' to take care of me or anything like that, all i have is my good looks and sharp wit. which means all i have is my sharp wit. if i didn't keep you honest, i wouldn't have much left.
Thread Central
I would watch the Infrastructure movie, if it starred Edward Norton ordering structural inspections, over and over and over and over...hoo boy. I *personally* do think infrastructure is sexy anyway; toss in Edward Norton and oh my.
vado I drove my little droptop fun car (not a Porsche) with the top down today, because it's my daily driver and it's sunny (and 30 degrees!).
Yeah Carrera, we've got our share of flippers here for sure. I had to explain to a real estate agent that I specifically did not want to look at anything "newly renovated." She couldn't understand that I didn't want to pay for someone to have painted it a terrible color, or to rip out perfectly fine vintage cabinets and replace them with new particle board just so they could say "new kitchen!" I am very capable both as a designer and as a DIYer—I'd rather do it right myself than pay for someone else to have done it badly.
are they people? or acronyms? or metaphors?
if you're going to fix up the house then sell it, ultimately you can't really sell for more than the neighbor's house right? doesn't matter how hard you work. doesn't matter how good of a job you do (up to a point). i'm sure there is a fair bit of room to choose nicer materials or to take a longer time frame to do it right if you're willing to cut your profits a little, but as far as i know, you can't really price yourself out of a neighborhood.
of course you're working with lakefront properties, so an old rotted out building might have a lot of upside potential. or, like you mentioned earlier, you're only buying the lot. the $95,000 split level isn't going to get much value added, no matter what you do.
it's not about money, but it seems pretty obvious that erika and leonard have a bit more if it to spend right?
Rational & Curt, for some reason I like this one, just can’t find this kind of thing where I’m from….know the original owner who built it for $1 million in 1986, everything is custom and only lived there for a few years. This house has been for sale for its entire life with only one additional owner since who bought it for $605,000 in 2000. Put it up for sale 2 years ago for $795,000 and just dropped the price to $695,000 The problem is the whole village is full of $100/SF comps which puts this one at $429,200 Learned from the world of idiots that a countertop is a countertop and nobody cares that you flew to India to pick out the granite. Fill up the tub because somebody else is going to take a bath on this one.
“Erika & Leonard” types will push the envelope with a purchase with limitations…they want all the good things we do….houzz is full of those types clamoring to capture the magic…you just need to deliver it without going to India.
i just worked on a project with a skylight like that. i think the building was built early 80s probably. one side was like brown, from years of various sorts of weather and whatnot, the other remained fairly clear.
$400,000 is still well outside of my price range. buy countertops from india if you want countertops from india, but if you live in a neighborhood with $400,000 houses, you just aren't going to have a million dollar house. it wasn't a bad decisions for the homeowners to build a million dollar house if that's where they wanted to live, and if they had a million dollars to piss away, but if their goal was to create some sort of investment income/nestegg or to raise the value of the neighborhood, they probably have more money than sense right?
if they don't make it funny nobody listens.
There's is no doubt that this is entertainment based culture. I've used the concept myself a couple of times on the media stage with the hope of delivering a message. Nobody wants to hear a rant, at least nobody with half a brain (which explains Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Beck, etc.). But Stewart preaches to the choir for laughs, which not only makes his "information" dubious (and as often as not it is for various reasons) as well as belittling it. We we laughed at the funny, we don't have to do anything else, next joke, please.
The best way to put comedy news in perspective is to watch Stewart's interview on Crossfire, which apparently got that show cancelled.
well in case anyone was curious on the resolution of my situation... I went in and talked for about an hour to my boss, his boss, and her boss, and calmly laid out the situation for each piece of the project that's still in progress, why it's not on schedule, etc. The upshot is that they're supporting me, none of them are blaming anyone internally, and we're routing all communications from here on out through the one guy the client likes but not changing any team structure otherwise because we're thisclose to being done. They did say that they won't take contracts of this nature again... guess only time will tell whether that's the truth or just lip service.
Woooo, that was close!
That's great news, rationalist, I hope it all works out!
rationalist - Residential project?
Office wagers on how long before the one guy the client likes falls out of favor?
Miles, I pretty much never do residential (except for hopefully someday soonish, my own). Since I switched over to environmental graphics a few years ago, residential clients don't really avail themselves of my services. I think the guy in favor will remain so, as he's had a multi-year relationship with the client and has survived this long. If handling the communication on the graphics portion of the job broke such a long standing relationship so quickly, it would be really telling of what an impossible spot we've been put in.
Can I assume TC / Archinect resident Minnesotans have seen the latest, lovely web-based initiative from the Walker?
I feel like someone has talked about Christ Church Lutheran before...
Hope you all had a terrific Tuesday! Night.
Rant post,
I hate my job and I cannot wait for the day I quit.
Me. I've talked about Christ Church.
food4thought, you should feel right at home here.
Miles, don't laugh often, but I just did, still laughing, priceless.
OMG OMG that Ralph Rapson Glass Cube project is amazing! So, so cool.
I'm scheduled to look at a home built in 1960, today. I created this thread to give me, and others, pointers on what to look for so I don't plunk good money down on a complete tear-down. I figured Miles and Snook, especially, would be helpful.
Donna, what glass cube?
@Sarah, via that link i posted above.
I clicked on that, and all I got was a map, and a picture of a turtle.
nam....think they forgot one great masterpiece : http://www.jacksonfineart.com/Julius-Shulman-3499.html
Hoping you can link to this.
OH MY GDFG! We were scheduled to look at a house, and I was prepared with rain boots, tape measure, and screwdriver, and it just came in that there is already a cash offer on the house. It only went on the market yesterday, and it's only 1,000 sf, and a 1960s piece of crap, I'm sure, but it was in our price range, and closeish to where we want to live, so we were hoping. This is impossible. I want to cry, throw my phone, throw a fit, give up, all of it.
I don't even want to google GDFG.
You can make an offer too. There is no deal until confracts are signed and money changes hands.
We can deal with the inspection issue later.
@snooker very nice Goff. Also Sarah sorry to hear. Re: the link (not sure on smartphone) but should be an archival map/encyclopedia of Minnesotan excellence in design.
For the artificial grass guy. Goff used it on the eaves of this house, the color was bright orange. Unfortunately there was a fire at this property a number of years ago and I'm not sure what survived.
Sarah, Remember the cost of the house is directly related to the neighborhood. If the neighborhood has a chance of getting better it would be a good investment. If it is swinging in the other direction you might be tossing your money away. However if it is close to work and other day to day activities you will be saving money by not spending money to get from point a to point b on a day to day basis. Your realtor should have some comps in the neighbor hood, so you should do a drive by and see what it looks like. Never ever by the most expensive property in the neighborhood cause you will overpay for it. As my wealthy ex-father in law a realtor as said, " Location, Location, Location."
"Future Location, Future Location, Future Location" is what the president of Zillow says. I think he's right.
Sarah, whenever I dive into one and get disappointed I’m always shocked to find something else that’s better….it’s a gift we have, of seeing things that nobody else does…pays to be a fickled girlfriend with lots of boyfriends.
Todd Williams Billie Tsien Associates. They're heroes to me:
For us, elevations are always the last part of a building to be developed. Often we are at the end of design development before we even begin to rough out the elevations. This is because elevation drawings close down the process of questioning by making the image of the building too clear, too “graspable” and therefore too final. Clients, magazines, in fact, we as architects and human beings, all want an easy and clear answer. But it is better not to provide one before the interior habitation and the structure of the building has been given enough time to develop as the logic for the facade...This position of “not knowing a priori” is antithetical to the general model of the architect as hero. This is a damaging model because it discourages the slowness of process that comes from the patient search. Certainty is a prison.
From their essay Slowness. So freaking beautiful.
Miles, I laughed so hard when I saw your new picture. All of Ricky's Rickyisms came flooding back... My favorite is "sweet empowered chicken things"
It's not rocket appliances.
About halfway through reading The Guardian's write up on BIG's "dryline" and I think I'm gonna hurl.
...and done
They paint Ingels as a combination of The Great OZ and Walt Disney, but by the end of the article they get a little realistic with some discussion of the long term consequences of rising sea levels and the long term, 50-100+ year, effectiveness of a levy system. What will it mean for the existence of Manhattan in the future? With the huge income gap in NYC will it matter to most people of the future anyway? At the rate in which the lower and middle classes are being priced out of Manhattan it'll be some kind of 1%'r mecca in a few years, which begs the question, who is this project for? The test is to see if it does get built as planned, or is stripped down to a functional barrier with public spaces, but not the Disneyland-like amenities proposed. The gushing over BIG's "zany" ideas is a bit off-putting, but a decent article overall.
This idea just came into my mind... Is it possible to have a script done to automatically URL the names of famous architects and buildings/projects? Maybe just linked to an image only?
For example:
"About halfway through reading The Guardian's write up on BIG's "dryline" and I think I'm gonna hurl."
Still love these guys.......
Two interesting job posts today:
http://archinect.com/jobs/entry/122532106/mid-to-senior-level-project-architect
"Shook Kelley is a coalition of passionate thinkers that use strategy and design to challenge conventional wisdom and advance some of the worlds greatest and most recognized brands...we help entities that rely on physical places and spaces to reach their greater potential through meaningful human experiences. We accomplish this by using an atypical process involving a unique network of disciplines...to radically reconsider the ways in which the great value exchange can happen between people and product providers"
and this one:
http://archinect.com/jobs/entry/122523266/architect-planner-for-hi-profile-biotech-research-park-the-timeship-project
The Stasis Foundation / Stephen Valentine Architect is seeking a qualified planner-designer for a 650 acre parcel for the development of a biotechnology research park... will be a world-class biotech facility located in Comfort, (near San Antonio), Texas.
There are two parts to the primary mission to the Stasis Research Park: biotech research and the cryostorage of biological materials. The design and development of cooling systems and devices for the cryopreservation & cryostorage of human organs for transplantation purposes , materials to support fertility; tissue for regenerative medicine; DNA, including the DNA of near extinct species; whole mammalian organisms including humans after legal death for whom all medical procedures have failed.
The second one includes housing on-site in a studio environment, presumably at regular human habitation temperatures.
I read the one for the biotech, and it's not clear if it's the architect driving the whole thing? Look at their website, more than biotech it's all about the building and the architect....
I think the architect is being an entrepreneur in designing and marketing a cryogenic facility. That's my guess. Could be an interesting and different project to work on, but I'm not interested in that level of prolonging life. Why would you *want* to live forever? I'd see it as a burden.
Not "us", but think of the forbes list of billionaires that don't know what to do with their money in their lifetime and their kids and grand kids lifetime; imagine the koch's living for 250 years, hahaha, sorry, I couldn't resist.
presumably at regular human habitation temperatures.
shouldn't make too many assumptions. he's got to get organs for transplant from somewhere to fill the place, right?
frei otto wins the pritzker?
Yes, Frei Otto, well deserved. And then you have this "Although the prize is for a lifetime of achievement, the jury hopes Mr. Gehry will view it as encouragement for continuing an extraordinary "work in progress," as well as for his significant contributions thus far to the architecture of the twentieth century" Thus far......
The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings but shorter tempers, wider Freeways, but narrower viewpoints. We spend more, but have less, we buy more, but enjoy less. We have bigger houses and smaller families, more conveniences, but less time. We have more degrees but less sense, more knowledge, but less judgment, more experts, yet more problems, more medicine, but less wellness.
We drink too much, smoke too much, spend too recklessly, laugh too little, drive too fast, get too angry, stay up too late, get up too tired, read too little, watch TV too much, and pray too seldom.
We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often.
We've learned how to make a living, but not a life. We've added years to life not life to years. We've been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble crossing the street to meet a new neighbor. We conquered outer space but not inner space. We've done larger things, but not better things.
We've cleaned up the air, but polluted the soul. We've conquered the atom, but not our prejudice. We write more, but learn less. We plan more, but accomplish less. We've learned to rush, but not to wait. We build more computers to hold more information, to produce more copies than ever, but we communicate less and less.
These are the times of fast foods and slow digestion, big men and small character, steep profits and shallow relationships. These are the days of two incomes but more divorce, fancier houses, but broken homes. These are days of quick trips, disposable diapers, throwaway morality, one night stands, overweight bodies, and pills that do everything from cheer, to quiet, to kill. It is a time when there is much in the showroom window and nothing in the stockroom. A time when technology can bring this letter to you, and a time when you can choose either to share this insight, or to just hit delete.
Remember to spend some time with your loved ones, because they are not going to be around forever.
Remember, say a kind word to someone who looks up to you in awe, because that little person soon will grow up and leave your side.
Remember, to give a warm hug to the one next to you, because that is the only treasure you can give with your heart and it doesn't cost a cent.
Remember, to say, 'I love you' to your partner and your loved ones, but most of all mean it. A kiss and an embrace will mend hurt when it comes from deep inside of you.
Remember to hold hands and cherish the moment for someday that person will not be there again.
Give time to love, give time to speak! And give time to share the precious thoughts in your mind.
And always remember, life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by those moments that take our breath away.
^Beautiful, I love Carlin.
what does that have to do with goerge carlin?
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/paradox.asp
i think what carlin said is "a sappy load of shit,"
George Carlin 1999
Curt, good catch. I read that saying to myself that this is not Carlin material.
this line "... pray too seldom. " set off all the alarms in my bullshit detector
Need to consult a lawyer, priest & a professor before posting anything on here. Mea culpa.
that's the paradox of the time now carrera. i've never had a 'boy' to take care of me or anything like that, all i have is my good looks and sharp wit. which means all i have is my sharp wit. if i didn't keep you honest, i wouldn't have much left.
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