Let's say a youngish architect has an M.Arch. from a decent school and has about 10 years experience working at various firms.
How hard would it be for said architect to move to London and become registered, and possibly (long-term) set up his own practice?
Issues to consider:
- Visa / immigration (said architect has family in the UK and might possibly be able to get an ancestry visa)
- Would the US degree and IDP count towards RIBA requirements?
- Job prospects in London, networking, etc.
registering will be a bitch, they just made the whole process a lot more expensive (a few thousand pounds) but you can work no problem without registering and still make decent money. One office i worked in had many australians and new zelanders, who were not licenced, and they were still running jobs...
job prospects are good i would say, there's loads of practices...there are always waves of recession, but i would say you could get a job in a couple of months...
check http://www.arb.org.uk, they are the registry of architects in the uk, not the RIBA as many think.
What's your reasoning for moving there? Do you already have a job lined up?
I worked there for 6 months during school, and there were tons of Americans at my office so it's definitely doable. Starting a practice would be difficult anywhere, so I wouldn't let that discourage you.
My reasoning: Just exploring options right now, and it would be years before I make any big moves like that.
But I've been to London and loved it (I even got the grand tour of Foster's office), and the architectural and political climate there is much more to my liking. Not that the UK is perfect by any stretch, but if the US continues with its downward spiral of bad design combined with christo-fascist politics, the UK looks like a more healthy option for me.
My reasoning: Just exploring options right now, and it would be years before I make any big moves like that.
But I've been to London and loved it (I even got the grand tour of Foster's office), and the architectural and political climate there is much more to my liking. Not that the UK is perfect by any stretch, but if the US continues with its downward spiral of bad design combined with christo-fascist politics, the UK looks like a more healthy option for me.
My reasoning: Just exploring options right now, and it would be years before I make any big moves like that.
But I've been to London and loved it (I even got the grand tour of Foster's office), and the architectural and political climate there is much more to my liking. Not that the UK is perfect by any stretch, but if the US continues with its downward spiral of bad design combined with christo-fascist politics, the UK looks like a more healthy option for me.
My reasoning: Just exploring options right now, and it would be years before I make any big moves like that.
But I've been to London and loved it (I even got the grand tour of Foster's office), and the architectural and political climate there is much more to my liking. Not that the UK is perfect by any stretch, but if the US continues with its downward spiral of bad design combined with christo-fascist politics, the UK looks like a more healthy option for me.
My reasoning: Just exploring options right now, and it would be years before I make any big moves like that.
But I've been to London and loved it (I even got the grand tour of Foster's office), and the architectural and political climate there is much more to my liking. Not that the UK is perfect by any stretch, but if the US continues with its downward spiral of bad design combined with christo-fascist politics, the UK looks like a more healthy option for me.
My reasoning: Just exploring options right now, and it would be years before I make any big moves like that.
But I've been to London and loved it (I even got the grand tour of Foster's office), and the architectural and political climate there is much more to my liking. Not that the UK is perfect by any stretch, but if the US continues with its downward spiral of bad design combined with christo-fascist politics, the UK looks like a more healthy option for me.
Holy shit... Sorry for all the duplicate posts. I'd hit "post", the screen would freeze for 15+ minutes, and then my post wouldn't be there when I refreshed the page.... So I'd try again, and again, etc. Mea culpa.
I think the board crashed for awhile. I'm surprised there aren't more double-posts.
Agree with the allure of international opportunities, but be warned - you won't be very popular there. Are you considering any other places? I found London to be dirty and unfriendly. England is all about the countryside, not the urban.
How does licensing work in the UK? Would an American M.Arch. degree satisfy UK educational requirements?
I actually found London to be incredibly clean and not particularly unfriendly (it's the whole British stiff-upper-lip thing, which I do well myself)... But then, I've spent most of my recent years living in NYC and Philly, so perhaps my perspective is a little skewed.
- What is the general architectural culture like in London? i.e., How well-connected is the architectural community? I assume there are frequent lectures, etc. where architects meet up and go out for beers afterwards?
- How is the typical office culture and production end of the business different in London than, say, Chicago? Would a set of CD's on a typical project be put together pretty much the same way they are here, or are there major differences?
- In general, how willing are London architecture firms to sponsor somebody for a work visa?
- What's the culture like at Foster + Partners? I toured their office in 2001 and was impressed with how friendly and casual it seemed (considering the size and prestige of the firm), but maybe my tour guide skipped the room where they use hot branding irons on the staff. I generally haven't heard any "starchitects-behaving-badly" horror stories about Foster. Also, keep in mind I'd be coming in with some project management experience under my belt, not as a pink-faced intern fresh off the turnip truck.
- Aside from starchitects like Foster and Rogers, what are some other smaller, less-published firms in London that still do very good design work, and what are their respective office cultures like?
good luck. i'm aiming for the jump across the pond myself. the architecture culture there seems a lot more advanced. well, culture in general seems much more advanced in london.
from what i hear, a lot of internationals do one of the year-long postgraduate courses in the UK to get a foot into one of the practices in london.
i've read that to become a registered architect in the UK, you must complete RIBA part2/diploma school. to become fully registered/licensed you need to do RIBA part3, which is a seminar course taken after years of practice. if you have an M.Arch from the US, you will need to get that Okayed by ARB/RIBA. However, I don't know if an M.Arch from the US will be accepted as equivalent to RIBA part 1 or 2. They seem pretty strict about their own standards and there also seems to be little reciprocity between degrees. However, they do take into account work experience, of which you have plenty.
take not that there have been previous posts about the growing difficulty of non-british architects finding placement in UK firms. this worries me, but not enough to at least give it a shot.
i have heard stories about people who study and end up getting placed with a job there. since they get paid in pounds, then pay back their US loans in double time (2 USD per 1 Pound Sterling...it's safe to assume the currency exchange rate will be that dire for the next couple of years.) These are the stories that give me hope.
- is pretty good i would say, there is a large design culture, which revolves around certain areas, and that develops in interesting lectures, exhibitions and loads of opportunities. obviouly it also comes with a large dose of scebesters and wanna be video artist, if you know what i mean. in the high spheres everybody seems to know everbody.
-don't know, never worked in chicago
- i've heard of firms doing this, but they were all commercial, not very inspiring. i'm sure that if they fall in love with you, they'll sort it out, i wouldn't worry about it.
- foster is loosing cash, i don;t think applying there's a good idea now
- chek out...ash sakula, make seems to be constantly on the rise and is a very nice place to work (second hand opinion) then...
I looked at RIBA's website and it appears there's at least a possibility that an American M.Arch. degree can be counted towards RIBA parts 1 and 2, but it appears to be handled on a case-by-case basis. Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that one.
Also, is there any information on the web about average architect's salaries in London, similar to the AIA's Compensation Survey?
to do the riba part I + part II equivalancy sounds easy but isnt at all and is $$$ --- 4000 sterling which is about $7200. plus then you do a part III - which can take as little as 3 months to a year depending on which school you attend.
personally the process gives a shit if you went to devry tech or the gsd for your degree. idp is worthless here. if you have a US license, you get an slightly easier path.
i remember post on the site that talk about the rediculus questions [and failure] some going down this path were expereiencing with ARB --ARB is subject to much criticism by the profession here.
dont blame this on the brits once again blame it on the aia on their protectionist moves in the 90's when they became threatened by all the foriegn named archs moving to us. the aia tightened up -- then the brits did the same.
architecture practice is much different here than the states so expect to work 2 years before you get licensed to understand the systems. rightly so, the UK expects you to practice in the uk systems[isnt that a surprise] and believe it or not, the american way of practice is not the 'only way to for the rest of the world' [unless W has his way]
most big corp firms [that will be the only ones looking to higher an american and go through the visa process] dont really care if your licensed or not - you are a body in a chair. being an 'architect' verses a technition [which you are if you are not licensed and you are not allowed to call yourself an architect here] will have little effect in pay scale to those bigger practices.
if your planning to do your march and not comming over for 2-3 years, who knows what will hold for london. its more optimistic now because of the olympics 2012 but the design / planning stages will most likely be completed by 2008.
i havent heard of ansestory visas in the uk. in ireland [republic] yes - you can swing back a couple[2] generations to your grandparents
the brits have a much different take on this -- but if i remember the rules are very clear on the website. be warned - the rules change daily here as in the states with regard to immigration - they want to tighten the controls. the councilate in chicago is very good at picking up the phone and answering questions. immigration office here is easily accessible.
most family visas are immediate family [parent, spouse] only.
you should just find yourself a nice little audry.
Thanks for the responses.... The UPenn study abroad program seems like a good way to test the waters in terms of daily living in London, and possibly a way to make some good contacts as well. Definately something to consider.
TED: You say that architectural practice is much different in the UK than in the US. In what ways? I assume you mean more than just imperial/metric measurements and different codes to deal with.
The finding a "nice little audry" idea does hold a certain appeal to me...
gin, [i can call you gin as we are family..]
if you come on exchange -- dont be discouraged. at face value $$$$$ and many friends constantaly do the numbers.
no doubt - yes - it is expensive - however you live differently here from life style and if it is in since with your overall values [as in my case] the $$$ is just money down the toilet. excuse the french!
if you eat at home - go out for the odd meal - its the same no matter what the mags say. figure a way to keep your extras under control -- rent, you will have flat mate[s] perhaps an audrey of 8 [i do know a woman at aa with 8 flatmates -- ouch] . i chose to live in 'someone real house, away from school because i know one tends to organize there activities around the place of work / school then home and mostly that it. i live in a beautiful part of london, have 2 transit options + bike. and the flat doesnt rumble with bus after buss. and i dont have so-called flat mates to deal with. yes, i live with an middle aged couple - but their cool and i dont have to deal with crap funishing [crap meaning uncomfortable] but that a detail. more to the point - no extras; utility, telephone, etc, etc, that add up.
practice. so hard to describe. i 'practiced' here for five years. i will first start on the core educational system. in the US, we are trained pre-k to grad/phd to put the peg in the right hole. in the uk, there is a conceptual basis to the peg and the hole. when one take their 'a' or ;o; levels here [aka act or sat] particularly in 'maths' [yes, thats mathS] its a written essay. tells it all.
us education system is mid-20th century with roots to train factory workers - needs to move on.
to me, as an american, it is your first awakening to the system. having worked in an uk practice with mostly americans, the norm of the office was to walk around like chickens without their heads on and work late, late hours.[not me, of course]
the europeans just put their heads down and got on with it, left the building at 6 - but got much more done as far as i was concerned.
the brits LOVE their processes and scheeed-wall [that schedule] the riba stages of practice is far more broken that the short bits in the us.
the form of contract is different [jct] and many follow bill of quantities or another that i forget right now. to some regard the bits of the project are broken up more and however just look around, projects boldly recognize the concept of specialist detail v. arranging the bits out of sweets catalogue. the architect participates much more in the process directly.
depending on where you worked, for the most part here are project archtects who run all aspects of theproject.
there is the qs or quantiy surveyor who i think knows nothing but is the cost advisor to the team. larger projects do side-step jct and do cm forms of agreement, similar to some us practices.
i hate the specs here - they are bs for certain.
however, the codes are performance based and you need to understand you stuff-- in ecessence they will state - you need to get to one or two means of egress and thats it for the 'building regs' however the BS [british standards] will go through in great detail what it means conceptually to be within a distance of egress: not just travel distance, angle to the egress and time/ rate issues. and yes, the primary fire fighting mechanism for the london fire brigade is STILL buckets of sand. but it works.
you need to understand what a little audry means - not sharon, audrey. perhaps the queen can chime in.....
btw, metric rules, and is not the difference in practice.
one only need to look at the aa lecture for this 11 week term [this page includes the past couple of weeks in grey ]
this is one school only -- one day last week i went to three external lectures at school - add into it bartlett, met, westminster, etc, riba, etc, etc and the art scene and .....now look at chicago. if your lucky a good lecture every other week. and that the best
Here in the US, it seems like about 10% of my job function actually involves design, while the other 90% is mostly about documenting the project in such a way that the firm's ass (arse) is covered in the event of a lawsuit. In addition, the design process itself seems to be all about short-term profit and "product marketing" rather than lasting quality. This is a regular topic of discussion here on Architnect.
However, the common perception here in the US is that British design practice is far less legalistic, the climate far less litigious, and that the design itself is geared more towards lasting quality. Is there any truth to that perception, or is it just wishful thinking on the part of frustrated American architects?
About the ancestry visa: My grandfather was British and came to the US after WWII, and I think my father still has dual US/UK citizenship. The British consulate is right up the street from where I work, so perhaps I'll stop in one day and ask some questions.
And okay, I'll bite... What's an audrey? I assumed it was your way of suggesting I marry a nice British girl and get my visa that way, but I'm obviously mistaken. My London Slang glossary was of no assistance.
1] well, i dont have the same take on us practice as you. i practiced there most of my career in big firms and my firm and never thought of practice in that way. but anyway, there are probably more barristers/soliciters/queens council [qc -- not our archinect queen!] in the uk per capita than in the us - id say double. my first year working on a uk project while in the states was traveling to london for 1 week / month to meet with the qc to review the language / words / images and intent of the planning application documents. your statement is far from the truth. in addition there are far more players in the team - just keep an eye on bdonline.uk for the back and forth. your understanding of codes [which are laws] must be higher as it is performance base.
2]you might look http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/applying/right_of_abode.html here before heading to the wrigley. your father is a naturalized citizen [if he kept it up] and make certain your gramps was born in uk not in a commonwealth. big difference. they are helpful there, but you must make an appointment [online] to enter the floor even for a question.
one of my classmates back in canada played the mum is a brit citizen card to get his visa. and he made sure before he went to grad school in canada to do something like the year out working for a brit registered architect (in his case in malaysia with ken yeang), and did all the paperwork he had to. i have no idea what that involved but when he finsished MArch he moved to london, got a job, had his canadian degree recognised as equiv to part II and started part III course a year later. he got his licence a year or so after that. wasn't a big deal.
me i went to london needing a work permit and almost all the places i looked at were willing to do the paperwork for me, big and small. It was fairly easy. I know of 3 others working in small offices (like 5 -10 people) who did the same. as long as the system hasn't changed much i wouldn't worry about having to be in a big firm like fosters etc.
and no one really cared if i had a licence or not. they all actually looked at my portfolio and my experience (that didn't happen ONCE in canada, which is part of why i left)...a nice experience to be looked at as a person instead of as a piece to drop into a system.
the legal code in uk is kind of interesting. getting permission to build was a bit of a task, with party agreements and so on, but in general i think it works quite well. and the fact they are flexible is nice, not just a matter of dotting t's and crossing i's, so there is room for innovation. not sure about the presence of lawyers as it never really came up, but I LOVED having a quantity surveyor on the team; i had to do cost estimates myself back in japan and that is incredibly tedious work that i happily handed over.
A couple questions related to salary/housing in London:
1) Is there a good online salary survey for London firms? I remember somebody posting a link to something like that a while ago, but I searched through some old threads and can't seem to find it again.
2) In London, what percentage of your income normally goes to housing? Here in the US, the general rule of thumb is between 25%-35% of gross income (before taxes), and in NYC, landlords typically require that your net income (after taxes) be 40x your monthly rent. Would those formulas work in London, or is there some other guideline I should follow for budgeting rent?
2) £100 per week, I assume? For what income level? Would that include council tax and/or utilities? (I see on craigslist.org that some landlords include council tax and/or utilities in the rent; others don't.)
£100 is a zone 2/3 flat sharing with one or two people... maybe a more, if the area is trendy. single/studio flats can be pretty expensive.
above doesnt include bills or council tax - bills, probably same at the US, but council tax is around £1000 a year for a 2 bed flat - not totally sure though.
when looking for ads, watch out for 'bedsits' - scummy places where you can rent out 6-7 bedrooms with a shared bathroom and kitchen. look to rent with people.
also; a nice perk to expect: flats are generally furnished with crappy furniture. i couldnt believe i had to buy a bloody bed when i moved to states!
when are you heading over? i might be looking for roomie this summer!
I'm just exploring options right now.... If/when I make a permanent move to London, it probably wouldn't be until I finish my M.Arch. degree. That said, I'd like the opportunity to live in London temporarily before then, either as part of a study abroad program or a co-op.
I'm also hoping to spend a couple weeks visiting the UK this summer, but I don't have exact dates yet. I'll be sure to post on archinect when I know more... I'd love to meet up with some people in the London architecture scene.
id atleast consider doing your March here; fees probably arent that much different from the expensive US schools... it'll be easier to score a job if you study here and get to know the 'scene' for a while...
My undergrad degree will be a Bachelor of Arts with a focus on architecture, and I already have about 10 years work experience at architecture firms.... From a licensing/registration point of view, would there be any advantages to doing my M.Arch. in the UK instead of doing it here? Would that count for RIBA Part II, or would I have to start from scratch at Part I? (Read the earlier posts on this thread for my background.) I remember reading elsewhere that if you're not coming to the UK with a B.Arch. degree, then you're best off getting your M.Arch. in the US before crossing the pond. Is that correct?
if you do grad school in UK you should graduate with your part II. After another year or two can do part III exam and all finished. Much faster than in the US. Only problem is the USA may not accept either your education or your licence as valid when/if you go back...
you may be able to convince ARB to give you a leg up cuz of the 10 years experience, but who knows...bureacracies are odd beast.
you'd be able to get the part II through a diploma course in the UK and all that...
but even if you register in UK it won't convert back to a US license. NCARB facists.
That's what I was thinking.... An American M.Arch. degree would give me the flexibility to return to the US if I decide not to spend the rest of my life in the UK. I think it would also put me in a better position to get a job in London if/when the time comes for me to start looking.
if i am remembering correctly cameron sinclair graduated from the bartlett , and was able to get a job in new york as architect but when he checked into registering they told him to piss off. his degree was not accepted..
not that it stopped him from doing important things...
i have NCARB certified MArch, but ALL of my experience in Japan was refused towards idp. i am not planning to go back to live anymore but at the time it was quite annoying...
def food for thought if you want to live in NA again.
Mar 14, 06 2:53 am ·
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Crossing the pond...
Just hypothetically, mind you...
Let's say a youngish architect has an M.Arch. from a decent school and has about 10 years experience working at various firms.
How hard would it be for said architect to move to London and become registered, and possibly (long-term) set up his own practice?
Issues to consider:
- Visa / immigration (said architect has family in the UK and might possibly be able to get an ancestry visa)
- Would the US degree and IDP count towards RIBA requirements?
- Job prospects in London, networking, etc.
Discuss...
registering will be a bitch, they just made the whole process a lot more expensive (a few thousand pounds) but you can work no problem without registering and still make decent money. One office i worked in had many australians and new zelanders, who were not licenced, and they were still running jobs...
job prospects are good i would say, there's loads of practices...there are always waves of recession, but i would say you could get a job in a couple of months...
check http://www.arb.org.uk, they are the registry of architects in the uk, not the RIBA as many think.
i have no idea as far as the visa process, sorry!
What's your reasoning for moving there? Do you already have a job lined up?
I worked there for 6 months during school, and there were tons of Americans at my office so it's definitely doable. Starting a practice would be difficult anywhere, so I wouldn't let that discourage you.
My reasoning: Just exploring options right now, and it would be years before I make any big moves like that.
But I've been to London and loved it (I even got the grand tour of Foster's office), and the architectural and political climate there is much more to my liking. Not that the UK is perfect by any stretch, but if the US continues with its downward spiral of bad design combined with christo-fascist politics, the UK looks like a more healthy option for me.
My reasoning: Just exploring options right now, and it would be years before I make any big moves like that.
But I've been to London and loved it (I even got the grand tour of Foster's office), and the architectural and political climate there is much more to my liking. Not that the UK is perfect by any stretch, but if the US continues with its downward spiral of bad design combined with christo-fascist politics, the UK looks like a more healthy option for me.
My reasoning: Just exploring options right now, and it would be years before I make any big moves like that.
But I've been to London and loved it (I even got the grand tour of Foster's office), and the architectural and political climate there is much more to my liking. Not that the UK is perfect by any stretch, but if the US continues with its downward spiral of bad design combined with christo-fascist politics, the UK looks like a more healthy option for me.
My reasoning: Just exploring options right now, and it would be years before I make any big moves like that.
But I've been to London and loved it (I even got the grand tour of Foster's office), and the architectural and political climate there is much more to my liking. Not that the UK is perfect by any stretch, but if the US continues with its downward spiral of bad design combined with christo-fascist politics, the UK looks like a more healthy option for me.
My reasoning: Just exploring options right now, and it would be years before I make any big moves like that.
But I've been to London and loved it (I even got the grand tour of Foster's office), and the architectural and political climate there is much more to my liking. Not that the UK is perfect by any stretch, but if the US continues with its downward spiral of bad design combined with christo-fascist politics, the UK looks like a more healthy option for me.
My reasoning: Just exploring options right now, and it would be years before I make any big moves like that.
But I've been to London and loved it (I even got the grand tour of Foster's office), and the architectural and political climate there is much more to my liking. Not that the UK is perfect by any stretch, but if the US continues with its downward spiral of bad design combined with christo-fascist politics, the UK looks like a more healthy option for me.
Holy shit... Sorry for all the duplicate posts. I'd hit "post", the screen would freeze for 15+ minutes, and then my post wouldn't be there when I refreshed the page.... So I'd try again, and again, etc. Mea culpa.
:: ashes, sack cloth ::
I think the board crashed for awhile. I'm surprised there aren't more double-posts.
Agree with the allure of international opportunities, but be warned - you won't be very popular there. Are you considering any other places? I found London to be dirty and unfriendly. England is all about the countryside, not the urban.
How does licensing work in the UK? Would an American M.Arch. degree satisfy UK educational requirements?
I actually found London to be incredibly clean and not particularly unfriendly (it's the whole British stiff-upper-lip thing, which I do well myself)... But then, I've spent most of my recent years living in NYC and Philly, so perhaps my perspective is a little skewed.
A couple more questions:
- What is the general architectural culture like in London? i.e., How well-connected is the architectural community? I assume there are frequent lectures, etc. where architects meet up and go out for beers afterwards?
- How is the typical office culture and production end of the business different in London than, say, Chicago? Would a set of CD's on a typical project be put together pretty much the same way they are here, or are there major differences?
- In general, how willing are London architecture firms to sponsor somebody for a work visa?
- What's the culture like at Foster + Partners? I toured their office in 2001 and was impressed with how friendly and casual it seemed (considering the size and prestige of the firm), but maybe my tour guide skipped the room where they use hot branding irons on the staff. I generally haven't heard any "starchitects-behaving-badly" horror stories about Foster. Also, keep in mind I'd be coming in with some project management experience under my belt, not as a pink-faced intern fresh off the turnip truck.
- Aside from starchitects like Foster and Rogers, what are some other smaller, less-published firms in London that still do very good design work, and what are their respective office cultures like?
Thanks...
good luck. i'm aiming for the jump across the pond myself. the architecture culture there seems a lot more advanced. well, culture in general seems much more advanced in london.
from what i hear, a lot of internationals do one of the year-long postgraduate courses in the UK to get a foot into one of the practices in london.
i've read that to become a registered architect in the UK, you must complete RIBA part2/diploma school. to become fully registered/licensed you need to do RIBA part3, which is a seminar course taken after years of practice. if you have an M.Arch from the US, you will need to get that Okayed by ARB/RIBA. However, I don't know if an M.Arch from the US will be accepted as equivalent to RIBA part 1 or 2. They seem pretty strict about their own standards and there also seems to be little reciprocity between degrees. However, they do take into account work experience, of which you have plenty.
take not that there have been previous posts about the growing difficulty of non-british architects finding placement in UK firms. this worries me, but not enough to at least give it a shot.
i have heard stories about people who study and end up getting placed with a job there. since they get paid in pounds, then pay back their US loans in double time (2 USD per 1 Pound Sterling...it's safe to assume the currency exchange rate will be that dire for the next couple of years.) These are the stories that give me hope.
- is pretty good i would say, there is a large design culture, which revolves around certain areas, and that develops in interesting lectures, exhibitions and loads of opportunities. obviouly it also comes with a large dose of scebesters and wanna be video artist, if you know what i mean. in the high spheres everybody seems to know everbody.
-don't know, never worked in chicago
- i've heard of firms doing this, but they were all commercial, not very inspiring. i'm sure that if they fall in love with you, they'll sort it out, i wouldn't worry about it.
- foster is loosing cash, i don;t think applying there's a good idea now
- chek out...ash sakula, make seems to be constantly on the rise and is a very nice place to work (second hand opinion) then...
http://www.ribafind.org/start.asp
you'll find every single Architecture practice in london, start browsing!
*bump*
Thanks for the info so far...
I looked at RIBA's website and it appears there's at least a possibility that an American M.Arch. degree can be counted towards RIBA parts 1 and 2, but it appears to be handled on a case-by-case basis. Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that one.
Also, is there any information on the web about average architect's salaries in London, similar to the AIA's Compensation Survey?
Turns out UPenn has a semester-abroad option at the AA in London. Sweet! And Penn is already at the top of my list of grad schools to apply to....
to do the riba part I + part II equivalancy sounds easy but isnt at all and is $$$ --- 4000 sterling which is about $7200. plus then you do a part III - which can take as little as 3 months to a year depending on which school you attend.
personally the process gives a shit if you went to devry tech or the gsd for your degree. idp is worthless here. if you have a US license, you get an slightly easier path.
i remember post on the site that talk about the rediculus questions [and failure] some going down this path were expereiencing with ARB --ARB is subject to much criticism by the profession here.
dont blame this on the brits once again blame it on the aia on their protectionist moves in the 90's when they became threatened by all the foriegn named archs moving to us. the aia tightened up -- then the brits did the same.
there is some hope -- http://archrecord.construction.com/news/daily/archives/051207agreement.asp
that the rules may change. i wrote off to ARB in december and recieved no response.
architecture practice is much different here than the states so expect to work 2 years before you get licensed to understand the systems. rightly so, the UK expects you to practice in the uk systems[isnt that a surprise] and believe it or not, the american way of practice is not the 'only way to for the rest of the world' [unless W has his way]
most big corp firms [that will be the only ones looking to higher an american and go through the visa process] dont really care if your licensed or not - you are a body in a chair. being an 'architect' verses a technition [which you are if you are not licensed and you are not allowed to call yourself an architect here] will have little effect in pay scale to those bigger practices.
if your planning to do your march and not comming over for 2-3 years, who knows what will hold for london. its more optimistic now because of the olympics 2012 but the design / planning stages will most likely be completed by 2008.
i havent heard of ansestory visas in the uk. in ireland [republic] yes - you can swing back a couple[2] generations to your grandparents
the brits have a much different take on this -- but if i remember the rules are very clear on the website. be warned - the rules change daily here as in the states with regard to immigration - they want to tighten the controls. the councilate in chicago is very good at picking up the phone and answering questions. immigration office here is easily accessible.
most family visas are immediate family [parent, spouse] only.
you should just find yourself a nice little audry.
Thanks for the responses.... The UPenn study abroad program seems like a good way to test the waters in terms of daily living in London, and possibly a way to make some good contacts as well. Definately something to consider.
TED: You say that architectural practice is much different in the UK than in the US. In what ways? I assume you mean more than just imperial/metric measurements and different codes to deal with.
The finding a "nice little audry" idea does hold a certain appeal to me...
gin, [i can call you gin as we are family..]
if you come on exchange -- dont be discouraged. at face value $$$$$ and many friends constantaly do the numbers.
no doubt - yes - it is expensive - however you live differently here from life style and if it is in since with your overall values [as in my case] the $$$ is just money down the toilet. excuse the french!
if you eat at home - go out for the odd meal - its the same no matter what the mags say. figure a way to keep your extras under control -- rent, you will have flat mate[s] perhaps an audrey of 8 [i do know a woman at aa with 8 flatmates -- ouch] . i chose to live in 'someone real house, away from school because i know one tends to organize there activities around the place of work / school then home and mostly that it. i live in a beautiful part of london, have 2 transit options + bike. and the flat doesnt rumble with bus after buss. and i dont have so-called flat mates to deal with. yes, i live with an middle aged couple - but their cool and i dont have to deal with crap funishing [crap meaning uncomfortable] but that a detail. more to the point - no extras; utility, telephone, etc, etc, that add up.
practice. so hard to describe. i 'practiced' here for five years. i will first start on the core educational system. in the US, we are trained pre-k to grad/phd to put the peg in the right hole. in the uk, there is a conceptual basis to the peg and the hole. when one take their 'a' or ;o; levels here [aka act or sat] particularly in 'maths' [yes, thats mathS] its a written essay. tells it all.
us education system is mid-20th century with roots to train factory workers - needs to move on.
to me, as an american, it is your first awakening to the system. having worked in an uk practice with mostly americans, the norm of the office was to walk around like chickens without their heads on and work late, late hours.[not me, of course]
the europeans just put their heads down and got on with it, left the building at 6 - but got much more done as far as i was concerned.
the brits LOVE their processes and scheeed-wall [that schedule] the riba stages of practice is far more broken that the short bits in the us.
the form of contract is different [jct] and many follow bill of quantities or another that i forget right now. to some regard the bits of the project are broken up more and however just look around, projects boldly recognize the concept of specialist detail v. arranging the bits out of sweets catalogue. the architect participates much more in the process directly.
depending on where you worked, for the most part here are project archtects who run all aspects of theproject.
there is the qs or quantiy surveyor who i think knows nothing but is the cost advisor to the team. larger projects do side-step jct and do cm forms of agreement, similar to some us practices.
i hate the specs here - they are bs for certain.
however, the codes are performance based and you need to understand you stuff-- in ecessence they will state - you need to get to one or two means of egress and thats it for the 'building regs' however the BS [british standards] will go through in great detail what it means conceptually to be within a distance of egress: not just travel distance, angle to the egress and time/ rate issues. and yes, the primary fire fighting mechanism for the london fire brigade is STILL buckets of sand. but it works.
you need to understand what a little audry means - not sharon, audrey. perhaps the queen can chime in.....
btw, metric rules, and is not the difference in practice.
one only need to look at the aa lecture for this 11 week term [this page includes the past couple of weeks in grey ]
this is one school only -- one day last week i went to three external lectures at school - add into it bartlett, met, westminster, etc, riba, etc, etc and the art scene and .....now look at chicago. if your lucky a good lecture every other week. and that the best
Thanks for the info....
Here in the US, it seems like about 10% of my job function actually involves design, while the other 90% is mostly about documenting the project in such a way that the firm's ass (arse) is covered in the event of a lawsuit. In addition, the design process itself seems to be all about short-term profit and "product marketing" rather than lasting quality. This is a regular topic of discussion here on Architnect.
However, the common perception here in the US is that British design practice is far less legalistic, the climate far less litigious, and that the design itself is geared more towards lasting quality. Is there any truth to that perception, or is it just wishful thinking on the part of frustrated American architects?
About the ancestry visa: My grandfather was British and came to the US after WWII, and I think my father still has dual US/UK citizenship. The British consulate is right up the street from where I work, so perhaps I'll stop in one day and ask some questions.
And okay, I'll bite... What's an audrey? I assumed it was your way of suggesting I marry a nice British girl and get my visa that way, but I'm obviously mistaken. My London Slang glossary was of no assistance.
1] well, i dont have the same take on us practice as you. i practiced there most of my career in big firms and my firm and never thought of practice in that way. but anyway, there are probably more barristers/soliciters/queens council [qc -- not our archinect queen!] in the uk per capita than in the us - id say double. my first year working on a uk project while in the states was traveling to london for 1 week / month to meet with the qc to review the language / words / images and intent of the planning application documents. your statement is far from the truth. in addition there are far more players in the team - just keep an eye on bdonline.uk for the back and forth. your understanding of codes [which are laws] must be higher as it is performance base.
2]you might look http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/applying/right_of_abode.html here before heading to the wrigley. your father is a naturalized citizen [if he kept it up] and make certain your gramps was born in uk not in a commonwealth. big difference. they are helpful there, but you must make an appointment [online] to enter the floor even for a question.
3] yes
Gramps was born in Burnham-on-Crouch in Essex, so there's no question there.
argh. i need someone with UK citzienship to marry me.
one of my classmates back in canada played the mum is a brit citizen card to get his visa. and he made sure before he went to grad school in canada to do something like the year out working for a brit registered architect (in his case in malaysia with ken yeang), and did all the paperwork he had to. i have no idea what that involved but when he finsished MArch he moved to london, got a job, had his canadian degree recognised as equiv to part II and started part III course a year later. he got his licence a year or so after that. wasn't a big deal.
me i went to london needing a work permit and almost all the places i looked at were willing to do the paperwork for me, big and small. It was fairly easy. I know of 3 others working in small offices (like 5 -10 people) who did the same. as long as the system hasn't changed much i wouldn't worry about having to be in a big firm like fosters etc.
and no one really cared if i had a licence or not. they all actually looked at my portfolio and my experience (that didn't happen ONCE in canada, which is part of why i left)...a nice experience to be looked at as a person instead of as a piece to drop into a system.
the legal code in uk is kind of interesting. getting permission to build was a bit of a task, with party agreements and so on, but in general i think it works quite well. and the fact they are flexible is nice, not just a matter of dotting t's and crossing i's, so there is room for innovation. not sure about the presence of lawyers as it never really came up, but I LOVED having a quantity surveyor on the team; i had to do cost estimates myself back in japan and that is incredibly tedious work that i happily handed over.
luck to ya.
btw, i know of at least 2 canadian expats who have their own offices in london. so if you have the desire it should be possible.
*bump*
Thanks, jump, for the info...
A couple questions related to salary/housing in London:
1) Is there a good online salary survey for London firms? I remember somebody posting a link to something like that a while ago, but I searched through some old threads and can't seem to find it again.
2) In London, what percentage of your income normally goes to housing? Here in the US, the general rule of thumb is between 25%-35% of gross income (before taxes), and in NYC, landlords typically require that your net income (after taxes) be 40x your monthly rent. Would those formulas work in London, or is there some other guideline I should follow for budgeting rent?
Thanks again...
1) http://www.architects-online.co.uk/salaryabout.htm
2) too large - but budget around £100 ( £££, not $$$) + bills
try gumtree.com for london accomodation.... ive said it once, and ill say it again: here comes another paranah in the tank- welcome!
1) Thanks... That's it.
2) £100 per week, I assume? For what income level? Would that include council tax and/or utilities? (I see on craigslist.org that some landlords include council tax and/or utilities in the rent; others don't.)
£100 is a zone 2/3 flat sharing with one or two people... maybe a more, if the area is trendy. single/studio flats can be pretty expensive.
above doesnt include bills or council tax - bills, probably same at the US, but council tax is around £1000 a year for a 2 bed flat - not totally sure though.
when looking for ads, watch out for 'bedsits' - scummy places where you can rent out 6-7 bedrooms with a shared bathroom and kitchen. look to rent with people.
also; a nice perk to expect: flats are generally furnished with crappy furniture. i couldnt believe i had to buy a bloody bed when i moved to states!
when are you heading over? i might be looking for roomie this summer!
I'm just exploring options right now.... If/when I make a permanent move to London, it probably wouldn't be until I finish my M.Arch. degree. That said, I'd like the opportunity to live in London temporarily before then, either as part of a study abroad program or a co-op.
I'm also hoping to spend a couple weeks visiting the UK this summer, but I don't have exact dates yet. I'll be sure to post on archinect when I know more... I'd love to meet up with some people in the London architecture scene.
cool...
id atleast consider doing your March here; fees probably arent that much different from the expensive US schools... it'll be easier to score a job if you study here and get to know the 'scene' for a while...
goodluck!
ps. this isnt dan from chicago, is it??
My undergrad degree will be a Bachelor of Arts with a focus on architecture, and I already have about 10 years work experience at architecture firms.... From a licensing/registration point of view, would there be any advantages to doing my M.Arch. in the UK instead of doing it here? Would that count for RIBA Part II, or would I have to start from scratch at Part I? (Read the earlier posts on this thread for my background.) I remember reading elsewhere that if you're not coming to the UK with a B.Arch. degree, then you're best off getting your M.Arch. in the US before crossing the pond. Is that correct?
No, I'm not Dan, but I'm from Chicago.
if you do grad school in UK you should graduate with your part II. After another year or two can do part III exam and all finished. Much faster than in the US. Only problem is the USA may not accept either your education or your licence as valid when/if you go back...
you may be able to convince ARB to give you a leg up cuz of the 10 years experience, but who knows...bureacracies are odd beast.
What about going West across the pond, i.e. how well does a RIBA Part 1, 2, 3 translate into American or (ideally) Canadian?
gin, you're right...
you'd be able to get the part II through a diploma course in the UK and all that...
but even if you register in UK it won't convert back to a US license. NCARB facists.
That's what I was thinking.... An American M.Arch. degree would give me the flexibility to return to the US if I decide not to spend the rest of my life in the UK. I think it would also put me in a better position to get a job in London if/when the time comes for me to start looking.
You could still get your U.S license. Just not in every state. Hell you could get it right now if you have IDP done.
if i am remembering correctly cameron sinclair graduated from the bartlett , and was able to get a job in new york as architect but when he checked into registering they told him to piss off. his degree was not accepted..
not that it stopped him from doing important things...
i have NCARB certified MArch, but ALL of my experience in Japan was refused towards idp. i am not planning to go back to live anymore but at the time it was quite annoying...
def food for thought if you want to live in NA again.
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