So at work, I'm getting bounced between associates on the same job. One of them gives me some work to do, tells me how he wants it done, ok sure. Then the other peeks over my shoulder a few hours later, goes, "You're doing it wrong." I say that that's how I was told to do it. He tells me to do it differently. I ask the first associate what he thinks of this, he and the second associate talk for about five minutes and I'm told to do it the second associate's way. Then after the second associate walks away, the first one turns and tells me not to do it that way! He was just blowing off the second one.
The twist is, the first associate (the overly passive one) is right! So what the heck do I do? I know that the second guy is going to ask about it later, and I feel bad just pushing it off on the first guy. So what do I say to him when he asks? I don't feel comfortable just zoning out and agreeing with whatever he says like the first guy does.
Second twist is, the two of them are like this all the freaking time! And anytime I tell them they need to work it out between themselves, the first guy just pays the second guy lip service, and I remain stuck in the middle. Help! Advice is needed, sympathy is also appreciated (though much less helpful).
rationalist, i would do two things. first, sit down with the two them and talk the issue through. express your thoughts with them. show them how inefficient and frustrating this way of working is
second, if it comes up again, you need to express why one way is better than the other and/or remind them of the conversation the three of you had.
if it persists, i would consider going to a third associate to get their advise/help to get it to stop.
I disagree: I wouldn't talk to the two of them together or worse bring someone else into it.
Look, this happens all the time in any business. Do what you think is right and take a lesson from the first associate - pay the other one lip service. How do you think he got ahead? Creating an "issue" out of an everyday, everywhere situation would signal to me immaturity and inability to handle normal workplace politics.
unless you already have a very high level of trust with both of the associates and you are confident they a) recognize this to be a problem, and b) are willing to work toward an agreeable solution, bringing them together is, in my view, not very likely to produce much beyond additional conflict between the two associates ... and, it may put you in some political jeopardy
you seem to imply that the two associates are essentially equal within the organization ... that's rarely the case ... part of your problem may be figuring out which of the two carries the most clout ... if you can figure that out, perhaps you can afford to ignore, or regard less, the one with less power
what i find intollerable is that the organization permits two separate individuals to give you direction and supervision ... the REAL problem lies elsewhere in the organization ... although, sometimes you do see this situation occur when firms have, say, a design department and a separate project management department ... those two disciplines often produce this type of problem on individual projects, due to conflicting priorities
i don't know how long you've been there and whether you have any sort of meaningful, trusting relationship with the two associates' boss(es) ... if so, you might go there for advice ... not to criticize the two associates, but for guidance about how to work effectively within the system ... but, you need to do that quietly, refrain from naming names (if possible) and with a positive, constructive manner
You've made a judgement call about who's right. Go with that and don't feel guilty. If someone complains, explain why you made the right decision. If and only if there is a fuss, point out that you were recieving conflicting instructions, and that you had to make a call. If they don't want you making calls, then they'll get the chain of command sorted. I suspect they will appreciate the initiative.
You probably don't want to spend all day discussing office politics, so don't. Just do the architecture and let them do the politics.
i would be open to suggestions from both, but do what i think is right.
After which, i would explain the rationality of what i did to both.
And still be open to suggestions....
Should'nt be a while before everything fits into place.
The impression i get is:
Associate 1: Passive. A-hole.
Associate 2: Active. A-hole.
I'm sorry for you man!Theres hope, it is indeed a rare circumstance.
and for all it takes...refrain from lip service or any other form of hypocrisy yourself. You don't want to be like them.
thanks all. I think BlueGoose has hit several nails with his assessment, so I'll address his questions/uncertainties...
They do NOT recognize this to be a problem. They have each shoved the problem away from themselves, and consequently, onto me. At this point they each think that everything is fine because I am doing what THEY told me to do. Of course you see that only one of them can be correct in this.
The wrong, busybody associate is every-so-slightly higher up the food chain than the correct but annoyingly passive associate.
tlmII has echoed the concerns that I have myself - that if I try to do anything about the situation, it will only reflect badly on me as being the one who couldn't handle it. I am fresh out of school and do not want to seem immature to my much older colleagues. However, if the two of them don't stop this, they're going to drive me, and two other people on the project (one equal to me, one below me), absolutely nuts.
I could not discuss this with anybody else in the firm without them knowing who I meant, as it is a small office.
Do what is right, and be ready to defend it--with your own reasons, not with "associate A told me to do it this way." Do this in every circumstance, in every situation, period.
If associate B then has a problem with what you've chosen to do, he can talk to *you* about it maturely. Maybe you can have the productive discussion with him that associate a is too weak to have.
And yes, there is a chance you'll be fired for being "stubborn". (Or, as a friend of mine was, for "thinking too much.") But, maybe at that point you're better off in another firm, one that values open and productive discussion about varying methodologies.
unfortunately you have to do what you know is right, and defend it as myriam says. it's good practice for when you have to go to a client and say, "you asked for X buy i gave you Y and this is the reason..."
i feel for ya -- i have been in this boat numerous times
what trumps everything is if associate B (the wrong one) is asking you to do something that is WRONG (as in legally, morally, or ethically). then you confront them and, if it's not effective, you go to their boss. it's your obligation as an architect and f--k office politics at that point
nah, nothing nearly so big... It's actually a piddly stupid thing, it's just the fact that the two of them have put me in this position about three times in the past two weeks that makes me feel the need to find a better way to deal. This ALSO means that it is WAY not worth losing a job over...
That's why I didn't put it as a right vs. wrong ethical sort of question, but an office politics vs. sanity sort of question. Don't need to make it more than it is. But you've all given me a lot to think about. I guess if 'associate B' gets on my case about it again, I'm going to say something to the effect of, "Well, I'm not trying to be insubordinate, but I have been getting conflicting directions from two people, both of whom I am supposed to take the direction of. These two people repeatedly cannot come to an agreement between them, so I had to go with what I think is the right way to do things, and this time that wasn't the way you wanted it done. I think the way to avoid this in the future is to make sure that it is clear at the beginning of a task or project whom is in charge of that task or project, so that the conflicting directions will be eliminated." I'm still not totally content and comfortable with the position that will put me in, but that's the best I can finangle right now.
in similar situation i confronted the boss, in a light way (whatever that means; basically i made a joke). this didn't exactly lead to a real change in behavior mind but my boss knew there was an issue...
why not speak up? when i was in a larger office i expected the people beneath me to speak up when there was an issue. i also expected them to have design ideas and opinions and to let me know about them as well. your guys don't like input?
As we used to say about the office standard: "The Office Standard, is there is no OFFICE STANDARD." So one day you will get the little rubber stamp, and screw the associates go off and practice architecture
with your computer and yourself.
Nov 23, 05 7:47 am ·
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what should I do?
So at work, I'm getting bounced between associates on the same job. One of them gives me some work to do, tells me how he wants it done, ok sure. Then the other peeks over my shoulder a few hours later, goes, "You're doing it wrong." I say that that's how I was told to do it. He tells me to do it differently. I ask the first associate what he thinks of this, he and the second associate talk for about five minutes and I'm told to do it the second associate's way. Then after the second associate walks away, the first one turns and tells me not to do it that way! He was just blowing off the second one.
The twist is, the first associate (the overly passive one) is right! So what the heck do I do? I know that the second guy is going to ask about it later, and I feel bad just pushing it off on the first guy. So what do I say to him when he asks? I don't feel comfortable just zoning out and agreeing with whatever he says like the first guy does.
Second twist is, the two of them are like this all the freaking time! And anytime I tell them they need to work it out between themselves, the first guy just pays the second guy lip service, and I remain stuck in the middle. Help! Advice is needed, sympathy is also appreciated (though much less helpful).
rationalist, i would do two things. first, sit down with the two them and talk the issue through. express your thoughts with them. show them how inefficient and frustrating this way of working is
second, if it comes up again, you need to express why one way is better than the other and/or remind them of the conversation the three of you had.
if it persists, i would consider going to a third associate to get their advise/help to get it to stop.
I disagree: I wouldn't talk to the two of them together or worse bring someone else into it.
Look, this happens all the time in any business. Do what you think is right and take a lesson from the first associate - pay the other one lip service. How do you think he got ahead? Creating an "issue" out of an everyday, everywhere situation would signal to me immaturity and inability to handle normal workplace politics.
I don't know that rationalist is the immature one though.
hmm, so problems get solved by not talking about the problems? that sounds like the success of any great relationship.
unless you already have a very high level of trust with both of the associates and you are confident they a) recognize this to be a problem, and b) are willing to work toward an agreeable solution, bringing them together is, in my view, not very likely to produce much beyond additional conflict between the two associates ... and, it may put you in some political jeopardy
you seem to imply that the two associates are essentially equal within the organization ... that's rarely the case ... part of your problem may be figuring out which of the two carries the most clout ... if you can figure that out, perhaps you can afford to ignore, or regard less, the one with less power
what i find intollerable is that the organization permits two separate individuals to give you direction and supervision ... the REAL problem lies elsewhere in the organization ... although, sometimes you do see this situation occur when firms have, say, a design department and a separate project management department ... those two disciplines often produce this type of problem on individual projects, due to conflicting priorities
i don't know how long you've been there and whether you have any sort of meaningful, trusting relationship with the two associates' boss(es) ... if so, you might go there for advice ... not to criticize the two associates, but for guidance about how to work effectively within the system ... but, you need to do that quietly, refrain from naming names (if possible) and with a positive, constructive manner
You've made a judgement call about who's right. Go with that and don't feel guilty. If someone complains, explain why you made the right decision. If and only if there is a fuss, point out that you were recieving conflicting instructions, and that you had to make a call. If they don't want you making calls, then they'll get the chain of command sorted. I suspect they will appreciate the initiative.
You probably don't want to spend all day discussing office politics, so don't. Just do the architecture and let them do the politics.
Please find sympathy enclosed.
i would be open to suggestions from both, but do what i think is right.
After which, i would explain the rationality of what i did to both.
And still be open to suggestions....
Should'nt be a while before everything fits into place.
The impression i get is:
Associate 1: Passive. A-hole.
Associate 2: Active. A-hole.
I'm sorry for you man!Theres hope, it is indeed a rare circumstance.
and for all it takes...refrain from lip service or any other form of hypocrisy yourself. You don't want to be like them.
thanks all. I think BlueGoose has hit several nails with his assessment, so I'll address his questions/uncertainties...
They do NOT recognize this to be a problem. They have each shoved the problem away from themselves, and consequently, onto me. At this point they each think that everything is fine because I am doing what THEY told me to do. Of course you see that only one of them can be correct in this.
The wrong, busybody associate is every-so-slightly higher up the food chain than the correct but annoyingly passive associate.
tlmII has echoed the concerns that I have myself - that if I try to do anything about the situation, it will only reflect badly on me as being the one who couldn't handle it. I am fresh out of school and do not want to seem immature to my much older colleagues. However, if the two of them don't stop this, they're going to drive me, and two other people on the project (one equal to me, one below me), absolutely nuts.
I could not discuss this with anybody else in the firm without them knowing who I meant, as it is a small office.
Do what is right, and be ready to defend it--with your own reasons, not with "associate A told me to do it this way." Do this in every circumstance, in every situation, period.
If associate B then has a problem with what you've chosen to do, he can talk to *you* about it maturely. Maybe you can have the productive discussion with him that associate a is too weak to have.
And yes, there is a chance you'll be fired for being "stubborn". (Or, as a friend of mine was, for "thinking too much.") But, maybe at that point you're better off in another firm, one that values open and productive discussion about varying methodologies.
unfortunately you have to do what you know is right, and defend it as myriam says. it's good practice for when you have to go to a client and say, "you asked for X buy i gave you Y and this is the reason..."
i feel for ya -- i have been in this boat numerous times
what trumps everything is if associate B (the wrong one) is asking you to do something that is WRONG (as in legally, morally, or ethically). then you confront them and, if it's not effective, you go to their boss. it's your obligation as an architect and f--k office politics at that point
nah, nothing nearly so big... It's actually a piddly stupid thing, it's just the fact that the two of them have put me in this position about three times in the past two weeks that makes me feel the need to find a better way to deal. This ALSO means that it is WAY not worth losing a job over...
That's why I didn't put it as a right vs. wrong ethical sort of question, but an office politics vs. sanity sort of question. Don't need to make it more than it is. But you've all given me a lot to think about. I guess if 'associate B' gets on my case about it again, I'm going to say something to the effect of, "Well, I'm not trying to be insubordinate, but I have been getting conflicting directions from two people, both of whom I am supposed to take the direction of. These two people repeatedly cannot come to an agreement between them, so I had to go with what I think is the right way to do things, and this time that wasn't the way you wanted it done. I think the way to avoid this in the future is to make sure that it is clear at the beginning of a task or project whom is in charge of that task or project, so that the conflicting directions will be eliminated." I'm still not totally content and comfortable with the position that will put me in, but that's the best I can finangle right now.
oh, rationalist...it's always reggie or len dale with you...i wish i had such problems ;)
in similar situation i confronted the boss, in a light way (whatever that means; basically i made a joke). this didn't exactly lead to a real change in behavior mind but my boss knew there was an issue...
why not speak up? when i was in a larger office i expected the people beneath me to speak up when there was an issue. i also expected them to have design ideas and opinions and to let me know about them as well. your guys don't like input?
As we used to say about the office standard: "The Office Standard, is there is no OFFICE STANDARD." So one day you will get the little rubber stamp, and screw the associates go off and practice architecture
with your computer and yourself.
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