I'm looking to learn more about cost estimating because I'm tired of value engineering our projects to death. Where would I find some kind of cost estimating class (preferably in LA)? At a contractor school? A community college or university extension? Or is this something you just have to learn out of books and on the job with a contractor?
It might depend on what type of projects you are doing - I would imagine that cost estimating classes cover mostly larger commercial and institutional projects, or multi-unit housing, which can differ dramatically from high-end residential or smaller residential projects. We do residential design-build, and even with books and several years of construction experience, we find cost estimating can be quite difficult in this market. Prices have increased over the last few years at an incredible pace - from labor to materials everything has gone up to varying degrees, and continues to rise - it's tough to even make a guess in some cases...
Also, unless the design has been completely detailed and specified (which it rarely is), allowances can have a huge range and clients don't seem to understand why custom bamboo cabinetry can cost 3 times as much as maple cabinets from the kitchen store, or a toilet can be $100 or $800, etc...
In general, I would think working with a contractor is your best bet - you would get a feel for the range of numbers for different categories of construction and levels of finish, approximate square footage costs, how site conditions can affect estimates, etc.
If you are working in an office, I would recommend talking to the principals about hiring a cost estimator - at the very least it would be an interesting discussion as to why they would or wouldn't want to do it. We actually recently just did a cost estimate for a relatively small project - it was the first time we've had friends ask us to do it and seemed very wise on their part - these days construction is so much more expensive than either the architects or clients can fathom, and having a cost estimate up front can only help. We have done several bids for smaller architectural offices that far exceed what the initial budget was - unfortunately the clients tend to then go with shifty contractors that low-ball the bids, and I can only imagine the results - but I also understand why they would be shocked and want to go with the lowest number, given what things are costing these days.
i would agree with R.A. Rudolph. estimating is a complex art. i feel that the architect need only know 'ballpark' costs when designing (ie this system or material is more expensive that this other one, etc.). for larger, more complex projects we hire independent cost estimators and cross reference and reconcile with the GC at each phase.
learning to cost estimate alone will not, in my opinion, give you the tools to better design and the ability to 'fight' for certain aspects of your design. more often items either unrelated to the design or only tangentially related to the design drive the overall project cost. these would include items like fuel and material/ product production costs and transportation issues generated by natural disasters, workers conditions and strikes, politics, regional and global influences, etc. more and more, the world of construction is a global endeavor. projects in China have influenced the price of steel. Katrina has influenced the availability of gyp bd. the War's have had an effect on fuel costs. for these more intricate influences, professional estimators are much better equiped to inform you about escalation of a project cost. locally and project specific, Contractors will be able to discuss constructability issues with a given design. the product or material might be inexpensive, but the cost of labor to produce or install that system might be expensive. they can also speak about sequencing, etc regarding jobsite conditions.
Plus as a CG and one whos dealing with this everyday - people deceive. They'll never tell you the cost because your after their profit. I have to fight my subs just to get them to break down their costs - theyre always moving the shells. Best bet is to keep a data base going of all your projects and sf costs by trade etc. Then do RS MEANS and add 15-20%. Or get a grizzled old estimator - he'll be most accurate.
In the UK cost estimating is generally done by a quantity surveyor who will provide a $/ft2 initial estimate (e.g. hotel 3star+ 300/ft2).
When it gets more detailed it does come down to the quotes from specialist subcontractors and having the main contractor bid by pricing elements of the design in a "Bill of Quantities". BoQ's are a pain to construct and contractors don't like completing them. The more detailed BoQ will include everything in the build.
While once working for a firm of Quantity Surveyors, the Bible was Spons, a series of books which give prime costs for everything, and also give the costs including installation. They do have foreign series like Spons Africa.
Saying that, no self-respecting QS would admit to actually using Spons.
Further, when you architect types start linking object oriented drawings direct to supplier/manufacturers there should be no need for the QS, or the estimate...
bryan4arch, I'll trade you some cost estimating IDP units for some programming units? (kidding of course)
Curious that I am not trusted with many things as an intern, but cost estimating was not one of them. In fact, all our interns do cost estimating and somehow we are fairly accurate. All of my estimates except one have split the bids right down the middle.
Nov 3, 05 3:02 pm ·
·
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.
cost estimating?
I'm looking to learn more about cost estimating because I'm tired of value engineering our projects to death. Where would I find some kind of cost estimating class (preferably in LA)? At a contractor school? A community college or university extension? Or is this something you just have to learn out of books and on the job with a contractor?
My comm. coll. offered the class, not in LA, but that's where I'd look.
It might depend on what type of projects you are doing - I would imagine that cost estimating classes cover mostly larger commercial and institutional projects, or multi-unit housing, which can differ dramatically from high-end residential or smaller residential projects. We do residential design-build, and even with books and several years of construction experience, we find cost estimating can be quite difficult in this market. Prices have increased over the last few years at an incredible pace - from labor to materials everything has gone up to varying degrees, and continues to rise - it's tough to even make a guess in some cases...
Also, unless the design has been completely detailed and specified (which it rarely is), allowances can have a huge range and clients don't seem to understand why custom bamboo cabinetry can cost 3 times as much as maple cabinets from the kitchen store, or a toilet can be $100 or $800, etc...
In general, I would think working with a contractor is your best bet - you would get a feel for the range of numbers for different categories of construction and levels of finish, approximate square footage costs, how site conditions can affect estimates, etc.
If you are working in an office, I would recommend talking to the principals about hiring a cost estimator - at the very least it would be an interesting discussion as to why they would or wouldn't want to do it. We actually recently just did a cost estimate for a relatively small project - it was the first time we've had friends ask us to do it and seemed very wise on their part - these days construction is so much more expensive than either the architects or clients can fathom, and having a cost estimate up front can only help. We have done several bids for smaller architectural offices that far exceed what the initial budget was - unfortunately the clients tend to then go with shifty contractors that low-ball the bids, and I can only imagine the results - but I also understand why they would be shocked and want to go with the lowest number, given what things are costing these days.
i would agree with R.A. Rudolph. estimating is a complex art. i feel that the architect need only know 'ballpark' costs when designing (ie this system or material is more expensive that this other one, etc.). for larger, more complex projects we hire independent cost estimators and cross reference and reconcile with the GC at each phase.
learning to cost estimate alone will not, in my opinion, give you the tools to better design and the ability to 'fight' for certain aspects of your design. more often items either unrelated to the design or only tangentially related to the design drive the overall project cost. these would include items like fuel and material/ product production costs and transportation issues generated by natural disasters, workers conditions and strikes, politics, regional and global influences, etc. more and more, the world of construction is a global endeavor. projects in China have influenced the price of steel. Katrina has influenced the availability of gyp bd. the War's have had an effect on fuel costs. for these more intricate influences, professional estimators are much better equiped to inform you about escalation of a project cost. locally and project specific, Contractors will be able to discuss constructability issues with a given design. the product or material might be inexpensive, but the cost of labor to produce or install that system might be expensive. they can also speak about sequencing, etc regarding jobsite conditions.
In time and with enough projects under your belt you'll start to get the feel for it.
Plus as a CG and one whos dealing with this everyday - people deceive. They'll never tell you the cost because your after their profit. I have to fight my subs just to get them to break down their costs - theyre always moving the shells. Best bet is to keep a data base going of all your projects and sf costs by trade etc. Then do RS MEANS and add 15-20%. Or get a grizzled old estimator - he'll be most accurate.
Its a moving target - there are cost estimating programs and books that will geto you close enough for architectural purposes.
Understanding and monitioring the forces related to construction costs is a full time job
try getting a tile sub to break out materials, prep, demo and install labor. Good luck on that.
cost estimating is the most difficult idp requirement for me to fulfill.
In the UK cost estimating is generally done by a quantity surveyor who will provide a $/ft2 initial estimate (e.g. hotel 3star+ 300/ft2).
When it gets more detailed it does come down to the quotes from specialist subcontractors and having the main contractor bid by pricing elements of the design in a "Bill of Quantities". BoQ's are a pain to construct and contractors don't like completing them. The more detailed BoQ will include everything in the build.
While once working for a firm of Quantity Surveyors, the Bible was Spons, a series of books which give prime costs for everything, and also give the costs including installation. They do have foreign series like Spons Africa.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dbooks-uk%26field-keywords%3Dspons%26results-process%3Ddefault%26dispatch%3Dsearch/ref%3Dpd%5Fsl%5Faw%5Ftops-2%5Fbooks-uk%5F6612221%5F1/026-8106324-0458815
Saying that, no self-respecting QS would admit to actually using Spons.
Further, when you architect types start linking object oriented drawings direct to supplier/manufacturers there should be no need for the QS, or the estimate...
bryan4arch, I'll trade you some cost estimating IDP units for some programming units? (kidding of course)
Curious that I am not trusted with many things as an intern, but cost estimating was not one of them. In fact, all our interns do cost estimating and somehow we are fairly accurate. All of my estimates except one have split the bids right down the middle.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.