most of the firms who use cnc regularly are the firms with the principal closely related to a school of architecture, and thus they take over (hog all the mill time of) the schools facilities for their personal..ahem..'educational'..uses.

I doubt any firm can justify spending 100k+ on a toy. Most firms can barely afford new computers every few years.

o+ pretty much summed up those that use it.

Gehry and others will outsource the work, but that's large scale production, not the toy making done in most schools.

Greg Lynn has one in his office. He used it to make the molds for the Alessi set, and some casts for some cladding panels. At least, that's what he had done when I visited there in 2002 - undoubtedly alot more stuff now. At that time, Morphosis had a 3d printer also.

trace, the machines (even 6 axis ones) are not 100K +...
ive heard that you can get decent 6 axis mills for 30k, easily

I thought a local wood mill said they spent around 130k. They also had a lot of the extra features and stuff though.

ok, let's avoid turning this thread into a bitch-fest about the legitimacy or financial ethics or whatever of cnc milling.
how about some actual data about its use instead of mere speculation?

http://www.metropolismag.com/cda/story.php?artid=1420

I can start the lists as such:

Owns own mill : Greg Lynn

Uses other facilities (these all use Sci-Arc, UCLA, & Warner Bros) : Servo (David Erdman et al), Xefirotarch (Hernan Diaz Alonso), Gnuform (Jason Payne/ Heather Roberge), Patterns (Marcelo Spina)

So that's all stuff in LA, how 'bout NYC? How 'bout elsewhere in the country?

Another question: are there facilities around the country that someone who's been trained in using a cnc mill could have access to using?

I'm pretty sure that PlyArch has one - their work focuses on using CNC and digifab as a tool, rather than an aesthetic. There was just a little blurb about their work on a Mies plaza rehab in the latest Metropolis.

Our office does (Commonwealth). We just placed an order for a 4 X 8 bed made by Thermwood. Also the guys from 4-PLY are about to acquire one as well. In the meantime most of us rely on the services of a carperter who already owns these machines in New Jersey.. Here are some images of 4-ply recent work.

(Patina at the Walt Disney Concert Hall) and Pugh Scarpa (Co-op Editorial) have used Spectrum Oak in Tustin. Neither have strong academic affiliations...

Show me a 6-axis mill for $30K. Wait, what is the sixth axis? Show me 6-axis mill.

Bill Massie has one. Uses it.

The sixth axis is the rotation of the tool, you would use the sixth axis for cuts that require the chuck to be out of the way of the cutting axis. There are even seven axis mills that are used for making propellors where normal deviation is critical.

I really see no need for an architect to have a mill unless they are making things they can sell. It is pointless to throw down 150k on something that emachineshop.com can easily make. The other costs associated with mills is the operator (if you want a qualified machinist that will coat you 60k at least) and maitenance contracts run into the tens of thousands as well.

$30k for 6 axis cnc machine? Wow, that's pretty good.

I've been looking at simple laser cutters and I'll need to spend between $15k (for wood/plexi butting) and $100k+ (for one that can handle metal). That's just a laser - no clean up, minimal moving parts, etc. Those are the cheapest prices I've found.

I'd like to see where you could get one for that price. It certainly couldn't machine metal - not to mention the lubrication/clean up needed for metal machining. It all costs a lot.

I am with JG. The only way I can see it being reasonable for a firm to have one is if you get one 'handed down', as surely Lynn did via Sylvia.


Oh, and a printing machine (and laser cutting) is different. That's rapid prototypes. Making simple models quickly, producing several of the same thing, is a reasonable investment. CNCing is just not good for anything that architect's are involved with 99% of the time. Not to mention how slow it is.

plyarchitects use the cnc router at the university of michigan, fwiw.

the tough thing here is that it is expensive to LEARN how to use the mill (or other CNC machine ie: water jet / laser / plasma / router, etc) unless you have access to a free one for awhile.

also, if you own one, or are even shopping your work out to a shop that has a CNC machine, this sort of implies that your architecture firm is doing design / build. again, fwiw

oh oh - also thought of this:

there are CNC machines then there are CNC machines. The sky is the limit on price. And of course, what they do...

you can do alot w/a 2d cutting machine ... and some stepper driven 2d machines are pretty cheap (PLASMA CAM, etc)

if you are buying a 6 head, servo driven 20' x 100' water jet unit/bed, you'd better have over a million bucks.

multi axis machining centers - made in the far east - are cheaper than the usa made equivelent.

used machines can often be had at a fraction of the cost.

*still writing software for my own home brew stepper driven CNC sawing and drilling machine - le sigh*

Machines that are reliable for production are more expensive. IF you are planning to use it for models then you can get a mill like the ones usually found on schools such as Precix (which is what Greg Lynn owns and barely uses anymore) those go for around 28 to 40 grand depending on a lot of things, z clearance, gantry, servo motors ect, frame.
If you want a more precise machine, reliable and that will hold big jobs you are going to be spending starting around 75thousand dollars. It only goes up from there. Any other do it yourself machines for the most part and not going to let you produce fast accurate work.
Keep in mind that more axis (4 5 ect...) doesn't mean better. 5-axis machines are expensive, delicate, and most of the time you have to prepare files that work relative to certain axis orientations to save time.
When you acquire a big reliable machine, you get a professional training at their facilities for 5 to 10 days. What you learn from the pros has nothing to do with the models that as students we tend (or used) to produce.
Anyways, YES a good machine is expensive. Also not everyone needs to own one, you need to evaluate what type of work you want and can produce and if such an investment makes sense to you.
Also you can always, outsource and find places (there’s more places than Warner Bros!) to do the job for you.

Gruen is (as close to realistic.........) right. There are cnc machines and then there are cnc machines. You can cut a block of blue machining wax or 10" steel plate.

The dollar investment has to have a return. Its better to know companies that have machines and use them - than to pick up a toy that will drill holes in your pocket book thru the amortization/ depreciation cycle.

Personal experience = its better to learn what a job shop wants to feed a machine first and each machine type potential. Then - you have access to all of them depending on design, material and delivery date needed for a project. All these toys are .dxf or IGES dependent. There are no universal standards for programming across the whole of the machines that the industry develops. Each company adapts for what they think their market is going to best be - and then companies adapt them further into a specialized niche. The software interface is the biggest buggaboo..............

sometime next spring I will repost a current to be 2006 free pass application to WESTEC in Los Angeles - its the biggest tool show in the western US - at the LA convention center in early March to a new thread. Well worth attending - you can find out the newest machines - what they do and ask questions of techies at the top of the food chain. But a caveat - engineers who develop machines and software - don't think that there is a market in 'architecture'. They serve a different master.

i just want a good old mill for making furniture and such like i use to in school. i am guessing 3 axis would be plenty for me, x,y, and z.

Kimo Griggs has a home-made one I've been told.

you can pick up a bridgeport 3 axis mill with cnc (or even NC) attachments pretty cheap (IE: less than $10k) on ebay or other second hand tool sites if you look hard enough. Even a worn bridgeport is good enough for much architectural work. That's a 3+ axis machine (depending on the head & number of motors attached to it).

new (not as high quality) asian made mills w/CNC are also probably affordable.

are we talking "machining center" or mill? There's a lot of stuff out there!

ie: here is a 3 axis cnc mill:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Acra-CNC-Vertical-Mill-Very-Nice_W0QQitemZ7551353703QQcategoryZ12584QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

for 12 grand on ebay

here is a machining center:

http://cgi.ebay.com/KITAMURA-MYCENTER-2-CNC-MACHINING-CENTER-FANUC-8000-RPM_W0QQitemZ7548973794QQcategoryZ12584QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

for less than 10 grand

i want one of these for my apartment.

I would say the original post is quite clear: what schools/firms use cnc mills (mills being the operative word). So right away I think about the less-than-$30K mills with roughly 4' X 8" bed found at most acedemic/theory-based architecture schools.

It is interesting that we all point out all of the cnc technologies, but if we want to get into cnc, we have barely begun. There are thousands of "computer numerically controlled" devices.

So, back to cnc mills, and what I know of their use in architecture:

UCLA has a mill that gets used about 24-7 during the busy parts of the quarter. They often throw around the idea of getting a second mill as often the one mill cannot satisfy the demand. Even the less nurbsy crowd find a use for the mill. Sci-ARC also has a mill(s) that get plenty of use.

Firms/people that I know use the mills regularly for professional work are Greg Lynn (as mentioned), servo, gnuform, Pattern, well, just about all of the youngin's at UCLA and Sci-ARC have used them one way or another, and a few non-acedemics: Pugh Scarpa and smaller firms that I can't recall.

the machines I posted (from ebay) won't take a 4' x 8' anything. So I'm assuming you're talking about a machining center (IE: 3d cnc mill) with a REALLY BIG bed. Yes, expensive.

But if you're looking for something that takes a smaller work piece, 2' x 2' or so, it's much cheaper.

I've got nothing more to add to the thread "who uses them..." we sure don't.

I'm only half convinced they have a life outside of academics - the cost of use is too high for most of the projects we do.

I do though, think that we need to keep at it - at some point the cost will drop and they will become mainstream.

My favorite use of CNC is actually with 2d cutting - how shape can inform form - using flat stock to create space.

However, I posted a thing above, I'd like to get comments on:

"....this sort of implies that your architecture firm is doing design / build...."

That is interesting, gruen. I never really considered all of those little guys at UCLA and Sci-ARC as design-build, but I suppose they are. They are personally delivering materials to the shops with the mills and vacuum formers (like Warner Bros. in LA).

This could mean an all new type of design build. Weird. Greg Lynn's firm is design build.

Are many of these firms actually doing buildings this way? I know Massie does, but they are relatively small residences. It seems to me that most projects that firms are designing and building using their own or conveniently available machines are interiors, galleries, installations, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong--I haven't really researched it, it's just my perception.

Another thing that I've heard is that it doesn't become cost effective to own a machine unless you are taking on contracts to do fabrication, i.e. someone is running the machine(s) everyday to make things other people have ordered. Much the same way that some design/build firms keep a contracting/building side of business somewhat independent of the design side of things, so that the design/build happens when it makes sense, otherwise its either design or build. This seems to me to be a good way to integrate this type of fabrication into design process outside of the academy.

well, yeah - actually, that's a good idea for ANY machine, if it is a saw or a CAD station - you gotta have it working to pay for itself. A CNC machine can "work" w/o anyone watching it so yes, it should be running 24/7, esp. considering it's cost.

this is something that took me a LONG time to learn. =)

We're looking at doing some custom cut plywood panels for an upcoming project - we're just straight architecture, so it will be interesting to see how we interface with the contractor, and ultimately sub and sub sub contractors for cutting and installing the panels.

I think the main difference is that usually the architect receives shop drawings; in the case of CNC, the architect is producing the shops.

cool.