albob - but why put up a tower that no one will use? it's next to impossible to think that something like that, at that scale, could be done from competition to CDs in a year.
I'd rather wait and know it's done well than rush to build a useless, and ugly, building just to say 'we did it'.
Orhan Ayyuce, the desire to build has nothing to do with replacing the towers ,it's paying respect to the loss and encourage the view of the future, emtionally and technologically.
trace:
''I dont' care what is built, really, as long as it's a great piece of architecture.''
Than You Actually Care.
albob:
''If we have to wait 10 years before even another competition is considered then I suggest we give up now''
Never Give Up, Ever. Not Now, Not Later.
We Stick It Out 'Til The Design Does.
trace:
''I do have faith.''
Excellent! Keep It That Way.
The skyscraper will not be the symbol. What matters is the symbol or symbolism used in or as the skyscraper.
Roselink303, Larry Silverstein needs 100 good men like you to cheer him up. you must have a desire to build. i gather you wouldn't expect any money for it but he is gonna pay. i am thinking about it for the money and i have desire to build. my faith is not cheap.
goddam city life, there goes mah morality...
"trace:
''I dont' care what is built, really, as long as it's a great piece of architecture.''
Than You Actually Care."
Roselink I wonder if just to care would deliver the only thing that will carry the true vision, if it is enough just to want to see just somthing build, --- if just that will not just expose the fact, that there was not enough innovation not enough trust , ---- if just somthing is build.
Remember what could have made the right response, a rebuild discovering a new architecture , a bold response sparking new jobs and new building technikes to profit wherever in the world a rebuild is needed.
The true Vision had been forgotten years ago, that this is not about "an ansver" that the true vision is not nessery to rebuild the wtc but how will you get around , not rebuilding the twin towers ?
Now if you for these years followed how one design replaced the next again and again --- if you wondered where the artistic spark , the thing that shuld make just this or that new design ,what shuld bring the true vision, the thing that would change architecture, prove superiour ,leave you with no doubt that this is the right reply, then look at just two other designs and temm me the state of today's trend architecture ; first what Krinski made in 1922, --- have you seen this before tell me where ;
It is the left one ofcaurse.
Then check a lattrice I published on Designcommunity 04, 2003 at 09:01:58:
Now if you check a few of the other suggested designs, and ask yourself if these display the innovation and new technikes ,that is the only thing to bring a new architecture and a mountain of new jobs, all the rebuild houses you ask then ---- where will you find such a vision, will you find it with a new competition no, there you will only find today's stararchitects at the first second and third place, with somthing they re-invented to offer a new emporors clotches.
so rebuilding the old towers with new structure is innovative? Sorry, I find the idea of rebuilding the old towers ridiculous (they can't fill one, why would they build two?). They did not work, from a functional/urban view point and were pretty ugly (iconic, due to their height and the pair, but ugly).
A new competition would give EVERYONE a chance to contribute, if it was open. Look at the memorial, he was pretty much a no name (and still is, I suppose, as I don't recall it, but I'll learn it as time goes on) one that.
It's the American dream, after all, that the little guy can strike it rich with success and fame, via talent and hard work.
"so rebuilding the old towers with new structure is innovative?"
Where did you read those words ?
What I point to is that it is silli to talk about a rebuild without twin towers, that that will never be the rebuild offering what the world need, a new architecture, new technikes and "rebuilding" is not to be seen in such narrow perspective, somthing much more must be the result.
How do anyone expect that a "rebuild" can be just a trivial highrise who say that rebuilding twin towers have to be exact copies of the old towers, this could and shuld be much more than just that.
Trace don't think I am saying that the lattrice that was once a celebrated suggstion acturly rebuilding twins was "taken" from the suggestion I posted to Designcommunity or that one of the previous Freedom towers was stolen from Krinsik's 1922 suggestion for a highrise , but look at the dates ----- think about the nonsense "build.in windmills and spetacular indore waterfalls to cover the sad truth ,realy I think quite a lot of the "innovative" designs you seen around , not to mention the silli Serpentine Pavilion where a clumpsy "framework" act a lookalike 3D-H just so that the stararchitects can "borrow" a little here and there where things acturly happen, proving with that pavilion that "borrowing" seem to be the only tallent .
call me crazy now, but pay me when you get paid. :-)
something like a big Bunsen burner flame. people actually love flash but need to be true to their conservatism, so they hate flash. therefore, they'll want color, and blues are acceptable because they will segue into the sky.
call me crazy now, but pay me when you get paid. :-)
"Come down on your own and leave your body alone.
Somebody must change.
You are the reason I've been waiting all these years.
Somebody holds the key."
bs lyrics, good vocal
for all those who doubt the building's space will be rented -
I think it will. There was similar concern when the first two towers were built - at a time when lower Manhattan wasn't even close to what it is today. And yes, the project might go bankrupt, but that's not actually a problem, but a necessary transition of sorts. Things will work out, they always do.
trace, I never said we have to build a tower. If we have to wait 15 years for a good tower then I say ditch the whole tower concept and just build a good park.
My ideal scenario:
Build it well and build it NOW (well, at least give me a chance to see it in person before I leave this world).
I actually want a tower to be built rather than a park (but not this one since it's too blocky) but that's only because I like skyscrapers in general. A memorial park is still good and I welcome the idea if the tower is unfeasable.
BTW, I think everyone's expectations are too high and this is having a negative impact on the whole thing.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have high hopes, but it seems some are expecting this to be the best project/tower in the world which means they'll never be happy. I think the freedom tower right now is mediocre and that's definitely not good enough, but if this got a much better redesign then I can guarantee that many would still not be happy.
As I said before, I would have been happy with the original if it had floors all the way to the top and not a bird cage (aswell the other surrounding bland towers would have to go).
albob, i don't think the current (for that matter all) of this discussion is negative, rather in the case to the world trade center we expect more, 9/11 has been exploited for many various gains and has become more than a date or a happening, so we should expect more from this tower (if it has to be rebuilt). It has become more of a notion or a symbol than just a simple office tower.
you are probably right in that no matter what they design we will probably discuss the fact that it fails, falls short of some preconceived ideal that we have for the tower design, that is our nature, and dialogue (even negative in nature) is good for the advancement of our craft.
hell, we are architects..."if we ain't bitching, we ain't happy"
albob, I understand your discouragement about the dilemma of finding a reasonable if not spectacular design that would please everyone. However, I'm still not saticfied with the original proposal.
architorturealist, ha ha ha, I agree, besides the only way we, architects, get better is arguing and egging each other on.
Anyway, every time I find a new view of the rendered skyline, I can't help but be put-off and discussed by it. Why are the buildings so reflective anyway? Are they trying to make it look like it's non-existant? Do they not even like it???
Seriously, we need a real original, not forged, approach. Man, I wish, I wish..... nevermind.
Orhan Ayyuce, my faith isn't cheap either. If I did not sacrifice my friends, family, car, job, my ups, my downs, my passions and agressions, I would have nothing. Sounds like an oxymoron, I know. Nevertheless, if I did not give everything I have into what I pursue, I could not say ''I gave it my all''. It's as simple as that.
Everyone, never wish or expect something to fail before it has.
has anyone seen the episode of penn & teller's "bullshit" about the rebuilding of the world trade center site? some really good points, i thought, but also missed a lot of stuff.
any new responses on the "final" design? I am appauled. This tower is a montrousity....the design is completely flawed...I cannot believe they are going to build this!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT CAN WE DO?????????!!!!!
"In introducing changes made to the base of the Freedom Tower, Childs confided that he “wasn’t sure†of the architecture’s ultimate evolution. Safety concerns forced the design team to wrap the bottom 186-foot-tall portion in a wall of concrete that is almost uniformly three feet thick. “The concrete could have looked like a barracks,†he said. The solution: 2,000 sheets of prismatic, laminated safety glass will clad the concrete. The 4-by13-foot panels features prisms of different depths; the variety is meant to animate the skin with a variety of shadows and colors that move according to weather conditions, or with the changing perspective of the viewer. “Most consistent with the building would be to build the space out of glass,†Childs noted. “This is a friendly, warm plinth to the shaft above it.â€"
Thank you Jefferson, I could not agree anymore whole-heartedly.
Even the ''so called'' improved design is no more meaningful than , in the words of Jim Carry, ''... a worthless, steaming pile of cow dung.''
I have a ingenius design, but I don't legally own it. I need pointers and help.
As stupid as it sounds, we need a petition, and over 60% of the signs need to be New Yorkers. I have no doubt the truely devoted architectual community will extremely interessed.
This building is really about politics and not design. Politically it is just a middle finger to the rest of the world. The faster it goes up the happier our elective officials will be. Silverstein will get his over sized beast filled with our governmental departments as tentants. Silverstein there fore will heavily profit off a national tragedy and our tax dollars. This whole project is vapid from the beginning. If this was located anywhere but in the finacial district of Manhattan, maybe there would be a hope for a suitable design.
I don't think there is anything we can do about it. The process has dragged out too long. The public is impatient.
and to metaphorically jab the middle finger into the eyes of the fundie terrorists, open a gay church, swinger sex club and similar in some of the new building's SF.
Man. Look at the several other towers surrounding the freedom tower, I have a word "chaos". But think again, this is realistic urban planning in a modern city. We can't make every building look similar and get a echo and comfort feeling. Each building have its own owners/tenants and should have its own identity. Otherwise, the whole area will looks very arbitrary for the people.
Man. Look at the several other towers surrounding the freedom tower, I have a word "chaos". But think again, this is realistic urban planning in a modern city. We can't make every building look similar and get a echo and comfort feeling. Each building have its own owners/tenants and should have its own identity. Otherwise, the whole area will looks very arbitrary for the people.
Man. Look at the several other towers surrounding the freedom tower, I have a word "chaos". But think again, this is realistic urban planning in a modern city. We can't make every building look similar and get a echo and comfort feeling. Each building have its own owners/tenants and should have its own identity. Otherwise, the whole area will looks very arbitrary for the people.
The SOM "Freedom Tower" embarrassment
yes, the original ones were not liked by many
albob - but why put up a tower that no one will use? it's next to impossible to think that something like that, at that scale, could be done from competition to CDs in a year.
I'd rather wait and know it's done well than rush to build a useless, and ugly, building just to say 'we did it'.
Orhan Ayyuce, the desire to build has nothing to do with replacing the towers ,it's paying respect to the loss and encourage the view of the future, emtionally and technologically.
trace:
''I dont' care what is built, really, as long as it's a great piece of architecture.''
Than You Actually Care.
albob:
''If we have to wait 10 years before even another competition is considered then I suggest we give up now''
Never Give Up, Ever. Not Now, Not Later.
We Stick It Out 'Til The Design Does.
trace:
''I do have faith.''
Excellent! Keep It That Way.
The skyscraper will not be the symbol. What matters is the symbol or symbolism used in or as the skyscraper.
Roselink303, Larry Silverstein needs 100 good men like you to cheer him up. you must have a desire to build. i gather you wouldn't expect any money for it but he is gonna pay. i am thinking about it for the money and i have desire to build. my faith is not cheap.
goddam city life, there goes mah morality...
"trace:
''I dont' care what is built, really, as long as it's a great piece of architecture.''
Than You Actually Care."
Roselink I wonder if just to care would deliver the only thing that will carry the true vision, if it is enough just to want to see just somthing build, --- if just that will not just expose the fact, that there was not enough innovation not enough trust , ---- if just somthing is build.
Remember what could have made the right response, a rebuild discovering a new architecture , a bold response sparking new jobs and new building technikes to profit wherever in the world a rebuild is needed.
The true Vision had been forgotten years ago, that this is not about "an ansver" that the true vision is not nessery to rebuild the wtc but how will you get around , not rebuilding the twin towers ?
Now if you for these years followed how one design replaced the next again and again --- if you wondered where the artistic spark , the thing that shuld make just this or that new design ,what shuld bring the true vision, the thing that would change architecture, prove superiour ,leave you with no doubt that this is the right reply, then look at just two other designs and temm me the state of today's trend architecture ; first what Krinski made in 1922, --- have you seen this before tell me where ;
It is the left one ofcaurse.
Then check a lattrice I published on Designcommunity 04, 2003 at 09:01:58:
Now if you check a few of the other suggested designs, and ask yourself if these display the innovation and new technikes ,that is the only thing to bring a new architecture and a mountain of new jobs, all the rebuild houses you ask then ---- where will you find such a vision, will you find it with a new competition no, there you will only find today's stararchitects at the first second and third place, with somthing they re-invented to offer a new emporors clotches.
so rebuilding the old towers with new structure is innovative? Sorry, I find the idea of rebuilding the old towers ridiculous (they can't fill one, why would they build two?). They did not work, from a functional/urban view point and were pretty ugly (iconic, due to their height and the pair, but ugly).
A new competition would give EVERYONE a chance to contribute, if it was open. Look at the memorial, he was pretty much a no name (and still is, I suppose, as I don't recall it, but I'll learn it as time goes on) one that.
It's the American dream, after all, that the little guy can strike it rich with success and fame, via talent and hard work.
"so rebuilding the old towers with new structure is innovative?"
Where did you read those words ?
What I point to is that it is silli to talk about a rebuild without twin towers, that that will never be the rebuild offering what the world need, a new architecture, new technikes and "rebuilding" is not to be seen in such narrow perspective, somthing much more must be the result.
How do anyone expect that a "rebuild" can be just a trivial highrise who say that rebuilding twin towers have to be exact copies of the old towers, this could and shuld be much more than just that.
Trace don't think I am saying that the lattrice that was once a celebrated suggstion acturly rebuilding twins was "taken" from the suggestion I posted to Designcommunity or that one of the previous Freedom towers was stolen from Krinsik's 1922 suggestion for a highrise , but look at the dates ----- think about the nonsense "build.in windmills and spetacular indore waterfalls to cover the sad truth ,realy I think quite a lot of the "innovative" designs you seen around , not to mention the silli Serpentine Pavilion where a clumpsy "framework" act a lookalike 3D-H just so that the stararchitects can "borrow" a little here and there where things acturly happen, proving with that pavilion that "borrowing" seem to be the only tallent .
i dun bin ree eelectud
dont be perfidious. be jazzy and have some faith!!! blind faith!!!
call me crazy now, but pay me when you get paid. :-)
something like a big Bunsen burner flame. people actually love flash but need to be true to their conservatism, so they hate flash. therefore, they'll want color, and blues are acceptable because they will segue into the sky.
call me crazy now, but pay me when you get paid. :-)
"Come down on your own and leave your body alone.
Somebody must change.
You are the reason I've been waiting all these years.
Somebody holds the key."
bs lyrics, good vocal
perhaps traffic is more apt.
the man in the suit has just bought a new car
on the profit he's made from your dreams...
40,000 head men couldn't make me change my mind...
for all those who doubt the building's space will be rented -
I think it will. There was similar concern when the first two towers were built - at a time when lower Manhattan wasn't even close to what it is today. And yes, the project might go bankrupt, but that's not actually a problem, but a necessary transition of sorts. Things will work out, they always do.
two towers with some heart. this is my proposal for the site...
great idea! Since so many will look, shake their heads and snicker at things now, let's give em something to really laugh about!! Cheers!!
trace, I never said we have to build a tower. If we have to wait 15 years for a good tower then I say ditch the whole tower concept and just build a good park.
My ideal scenario:
Build it well and build it NOW (well, at least give me a chance to see it in person before I leave this world).
I actually want a tower to be built rather than a park (but not this one since it's too blocky) but that's only because I like skyscrapers in general. A memorial park is still good and I welcome the idea if the tower is unfeasable.
BTW, I think everyone's expectations are too high and this is having a negative impact on the whole thing.
Ha Ha Ha, good one vado retro, that will look good on a post card or plate. Unfortunately, it won't hold well against the wind gusts from the Hudson.
Thank you trace and Orhan Ayyuce, thank you, thank you.
vindpust, the one design I can actually view looks like a phantom joke. No inspiration, relying to much on the past. I'm not impressed.
e909, if you really have nothing to contribute, don't try, please.....
albob, I not trying to egg you ,but wants wrong with high hope expectations, thats what makes it interesting and challenging.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have high hopes, but it seems some are expecting this to be the best project/tower in the world which means they'll never be happy. I think the freedom tower right now is mediocre and that's definitely not good enough, but if this got a much better redesign then I can guarantee that many would still not be happy.
As I said before, I would have been happy with the original if it had floors all the way to the top and not a bird cage (aswell the other surrounding bland towers would have to go).
albob, i don't think the current (for that matter all) of this discussion is negative, rather in the case to the world trade center we expect more, 9/11 has been exploited for many various gains and has become more than a date or a happening, so we should expect more from this tower (if it has to be rebuilt). It has become more of a notion or a symbol than just a simple office tower.
you are probably right in that no matter what they design we will probably discuss the fact that it fails, falls short of some preconceived ideal that we have for the tower design, that is our nature, and dialogue (even negative in nature) is good for the advancement of our craft.
hell, we are architects..."if we ain't bitching, we ain't happy"
"i
the 2021 (earliest construction date estimate) towers!"
order your tshirt now.
and they're chrome.
rl:e909, if you really have nothing to contribute, don't try, please.....
and in contrast, you're 'contributing'?
???
Sorry, e909.
albob, I understand your discouragement about the dilemma of finding a reasonable if not spectacular design that would please everyone. However, I'm still not saticfied with the original proposal.
architorturealist, ha ha ha, I agree, besides the only way we, architects, get better is arguing and egging each other on.
Anyway, every time I find a new view of the rendered skyline, I can't help but be put-off and discussed by it. Why are the buildings so reflective anyway? Are they trying to make it look like it's non-existant? Do they not even like it???
Seriously, we need a real original, not forged, approach. Man, I wish, I wish..... nevermind.
Orhan Ayyuce, my faith isn't cheap either. If I did not sacrifice my friends, family, car, job, my ups, my downs, my passions and agressions, I would have nothing. Sounds like an oxymoron, I know. Nevertheless, if I did not give everything I have into what I pursue, I could not say ''I gave it my all''. It's as simple as that.
Everyone, never wish or expect something to fail before it has.
has anyone seen the episode of penn & teller's "bullshit" about the rebuilding of the world trade center site? some really good points, i thought, but also missed a lot of stuff.
Nope, never saw it.
Describe it. Was it intelligent, tactful, satirical, or slap-stick???
hahaha roselink.
What???
more 187 foot goodness from SOM.
Architects Unveil New Design for Freedom Tower
are they building it?
187? coincidence?
homicide?
I hope not!!!!!
what is the symbolic significance of the number of office floors, 69?
any new responses on the "final" design? I am appauled. This tower is a montrousity....the design is completely flawed...I cannot believe they are going to build this!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT CAN WE DO?????????!!!!!
"In introducing changes made to the base of the Freedom Tower, Childs confided that he “wasn’t sure†of the architecture’s ultimate evolution. Safety concerns forced the design team to wrap the bottom 186-foot-tall portion in a wall of concrete that is almost uniformly three feet thick. “The concrete could have looked like a barracks,†he said. The solution: 2,000 sheets of prismatic, laminated safety glass will clad the concrete. The 4-by13-foot panels features prisms of different depths; the variety is meant to animate the skin with a variety of shadows and colors that move according to weather conditions, or with the changing perspective of the viewer. “Most consistent with the building would be to build the space out of glass,†Childs noted. “This is a friendly, warm plinth to the shaft above it.â€"
HORSESHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you Jefferson, I could not agree anymore whole-heartedly.
Even the ''so called'' improved design is no more meaningful than , in the words of Jim Carry, ''... a worthless, steaming pile of cow dung.''
I have a ingenius design, but I don't legally own it. I need pointers and help.
As stupid as it sounds, we need a petition, and over 60% of the signs need to be New Yorkers. I have no doubt the truely devoted architectual community will extremely interessed.
This building is really about politics and not design. Politically it is just a middle finger to the rest of the world. The faster it goes up the happier our elective officials will be. Silverstein will get his over sized beast filled with our governmental departments as tentants. Silverstein there fore will heavily profit off a national tragedy and our tax dollars. This whole project is vapid from the beginning. If this was located anywhere but in the finacial district of Manhattan, maybe there would be a hope for a suitable design.
I don't think there is anything we can do about it. The process has dragged out too long. The public is impatient.
Damn you Childs!
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My vision, what do you think. Thats the best way I can show you.
nevermind it messed up. DARN!!!!!!
Sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!
answer: it needs a partner
re: http://www.construction.com/newscenter/headlines/ar/20060629r.asp
the glass sounds nice looking, spectrum morphing by vantage. further optimization (fx, maint, etc) depends on size and placement.
since most office buildings are clones, it takes little effort to create distinction.
the fully 'random' spectral region could segue vertically into... (ahem) sky blue (ahem) as someone mentioned previously in this thread.
call them and me crazy now, but they're going to be paid later.
note the ref to pwa, who should have hired me years ago...
as for the rest of
http://www.construction.com/newscenter/headlines/ar/20060629r.asp
i recommend canning the pr yadda. instead describe design.
and to metaphorically jab the middle finger into the eyes of the fundie terrorists, open a gay church, swinger sex club and similar in some of the new building's SF.
more good stuff
Designs Unveiled for Freedom Tower’s Neighbors
More bars in more places.
Man. Look at the several other towers surrounding the freedom tower, I have a word "chaos". But think again, this is realistic urban planning in a modern city. We can't make every building look similar and get a echo and comfort feeling. Each building have its own owners/tenants and should have its own identity. Otherwise, the whole area will looks very arbitrary for the people.
What is the solution?
HOW about adopt some general guidances like axis, similar set back profile? I think COBB's "Tour EDF at La Défense" set a good example for this type of thing.
Your opinions are welcome.
Man. Look at the several other towers surrounding the freedom tower, I have a word "chaos". But think again, this is realistic urban planning in a modern city. We can't make every building look similar and get a echo and comfort feeling. Each building have its own owners/tenants and should have its own identity. Otherwise, the whole area will looks very arbitrary for the people.
What is the solution?
HOW about adopt some general guidances like axis, similar set back profile? I think COBB's "Tour EDF at La Défense" set a good example for this type of thing.
Your opinions are welcome.
Man. Look at the several other towers surrounding the freedom tower, I have a word "chaos". But think again, this is realistic urban planning in a modern city. We can't make every building look similar and get a echo and comfort feeling. Each building have its own owners/tenants and should have its own identity. Otherwise, the whole area will looks very arbitrary for the people.
What is the solution?
HOW about adopt some general guidances like axis, similar set back profile? I think COBB's "Tour EDF at La Défense" set a good example for this type of thing.
Your opinions are welcome.
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