Okay peeps, I am a long time member and poster and have gone underground to ask your help in solving this problem.
I will be offered a position with a firm that does multi-family and large custom homes. The position pays $70,000 plus, benefits, moving expenses, pay for exams and supplemental education, bonuses, 401k, decent work hours, etc....The problem is I know I am selling my soul in the hopes of raising enough capital to start my own venture. So the question is this; how long will the Devil own my soul if I make this pact? Is it proportional to the time spent? Is it bought right out? Can I lease my soul, and pay Satan a percentage? Is there timeshares in Hell?
First define the knowns and unknowns.
Knowns:
$70,000 [plus other benefits, so maybe more like $80,000]
Travel time short run 1hr there 1hr back. Long term 20 minutes there and back.
Hours spent 40 a week.
Overtime when available, not required.
Design minimally interesting residential.
Unknowns:
Years committed to new firm.
Length of pact with Devil.
Length of time that I will spend in Hell.
Can any of you whiz-bang math all-stars help me out with an equation?
although 70k might be considered chump change by some, i think it needs to be considered relative to where you are and where you want to go.
that is, if you are currently living on 60k and you figure you need 20k to get your own venture off the ground then (provided that you are a discplined saver) it would take two years of penny pinching to get you to where you want to be and maybe that is not so bad.
a couple of things to consider though. first, it does take discipline to save the money. from personal experience i can say that it is very easy to lose the big income gain by incrementally spending more on everything you do. slightly better meals, a nicer car, and of course a fancy vacation (because you have obviously earned it, right?). the key is discipline, have a plan and stick to it.
the second factor is the issue of time. it is easy to overlook, but if this job only requires 40hours/week that can be a pretty good luxury. but again, i'd exercise caution and spend the extra time working towards your goals and have a plan for doing this. it can be very easy to fall into a habit of just coming home every night an watching tv (especially if your job sucks and your are more accustomed to working a lot of hours from previous offices.)
Do it. If it wasn't really woth it you wouldn't be asking. 80k/yr. is definitly not chump change. You will realize that sometime the devil has it's reasons for existing too. If anything it will confirm and validate why the devil is the devil and you will have enough time and maybe even money left over to take a good hard look at your own venture. Good luck, go for it!!
If you are seriously considering it, take it. Most architecture jobs are boring as hell and don't give you much in return, not to mention that most architecture stinks (I find it hard to believe that most people on here are doing good design on a regular basis, if they are, I've never seen it).
Make it work. Who knows, you could find that they let you do what you want, as long as it comes in on budget and helps them make money. From my personal experience, working with developers is easier than working with architects.
Good luck.
Oh, and are you sure you'd be selling your soul to work for a developer? Sure we haven't all already sold our souls??
As long as you having something you're striving for, I think you should take it. If not, it would be very easy to get sucked in without even meaning to and spend years upong years there without being able to break free. Don't let the creature comforts of the job get to you; tell yourself that you're only going to do it for X number of years and stick to that. Invest in a CD or something that has a certain expiration date and use that cash to start your own venture. Just don't get sucked in.
it's more than chump change, it's 20k more, but i get your point Shalak....i think the devil will own me for a while, i just hope it's not Little Nicky......
everyone has made great points, i will have to keep within my means and sock the money away, i think it helps that i am getting side work that i can pick and choose to do. what i mean by that is that i won't do just any crap either, it must be the kind of work i am building towards in my future venture - not unlike the new addition i am doing now.
peter- take the job. and don't worry about the pact...there isn't one to be made.
i think it's sad that all young "designers" think working for a developer is selling out. in fact, those of you who work long hours w/o overtime pay and embarrassingly low salaries in "design" firms should be the ones to wonder if you've "sold out".
peter- the reality is that any job can be dull no matter if you're cranking out 100s of apartment units or detailing the toilet in a multimillion dollar custom house. it's what you make of it and who you have around you to learn from.
as you've indicated, you see your work as a means to and end. And along the way, perhaps you will actually have a chance to impart some of your design skills to a segment of the population that does not generally benefit from architectural involvement.
it's time that we put all our architectural egos aside and recognize that multifamily housing is an area of increased attention and with the unsustainable practices of sprawl and the need to densify our cities, for those of you who haven't been looking in the european architectural journals...welcome to the design world. some of the most amazing projects being published are multifamily housing.
peter, you have a great opportunity to do something great.
so take the job as a challenge. be a rockstar and show them what you can do and really make a difference!
and in 5 years when you've saved up enough cash to develop your own hip, urban condos or other great projects, you can hire some of the interns on this list that are wallowing in the same underpaid jobs they are in now.
Dont forget that included with the monetary aspects of this job, is the knowledge that you will need to start your own firm, and move into the development field, develop contacts, learn about finance etc, etc. Generally, you are either in a position where you learn what to do or what not to do - both situations can be helpful. You may dislike working on a mass-produced item, but in doing so, you will learn alternatives by comparison.
If you are really fortunate you may be able to start [subtly] changing the nature of the kinds of developments you are talking about.
I am in a similar position to yourself. I ditched a traditional architectural job at a firm, to set up a consultancy to developers. I havent looked back...
Selling out is only an industry perception. In 5 years time when you are doing your own thing, you will be able to do so with more security and less compromise, and thats an unbeatable proposition...
WOW...this is good, honest too. i am not a fresh out school intern - i wish i'd had an opportunity like this then too - i have been working for the same firm for a few years and i can see the end of the world when it comes to the kind of work i am doing now, and i am really concerned about my job stability, i am sorry i left that part out. seems like a no brainer when i point that out i know, i know part of me is just a little afraid of starting over. it's been a while since i've been in the deep end of the pool and i want to make sure i remember how to swim...
i have a question, is there any resource available - aside from insidearch - to us that will identify shit architecture firms? forget the design, i am talking about their ability to make payroll and the related issues...
1). where is the job? 70k is fairly good $ in some areas - near poverty level in others.
2). do you have the drive to create your own venture after putting in 40 hours doing the mundane - or will you simply become comfortable. i always think of michael caine - the actor. he openly admits doing mundane commercial projects in order to support his more serious work. if that's you then go for it.
The devil will only own your soul outright for the time you are there, but it will take a while longer to shake yourself free of the guy completely. Don't stay there too long, because you'll be able to get a better job with the experience, but still not neccessarily as good a job as you'd want, because your experience will be with such shitty projects. If you're looking for outright experience, or experience at a particular responsibility level (i.e. you're making the jump to project manager, etc.), do it for a couple of years, and then move on.
Please Help With My New Math
Okay peeps, I am a long time member and poster and have gone underground to ask your help in solving this problem.
I will be offered a position with a firm that does multi-family and large custom homes. The position pays $70,000 plus, benefits, moving expenses, pay for exams and supplemental education, bonuses, 401k, decent work hours, etc....The problem is I know I am selling my soul in the hopes of raising enough capital to start my own venture. So the question is this; how long will the Devil own my soul if I make this pact? Is it proportional to the time spent? Is it bought right out? Can I lease my soul, and pay Satan a percentage? Is there timeshares in Hell?
First define the knowns and unknowns.
Knowns:
$70,000 [plus other benefits, so maybe more like $80,000]
Travel time short run 1hr there 1hr back. Long term 20 minutes there and back.
Hours spent 40 a week.
Overtime when available, not required.
Design minimally interesting residential.
Unknowns:
Years committed to new firm.
Length of pact with Devil.
Length of time that I will spend in Hell.
Can any of you whiz-bang math all-stars help me out with an equation?
Thanks in advance.
although 70k might be considered chump change by some, i think it needs to be considered relative to where you are and where you want to go.
that is, if you are currently living on 60k and you figure you need 20k to get your own venture off the ground then (provided that you are a discplined saver) it would take two years of penny pinching to get you to where you want to be and maybe that is not so bad.
a couple of things to consider though. first, it does take discipline to save the money. from personal experience i can say that it is very easy to lose the big income gain by incrementally spending more on everything you do. slightly better meals, a nicer car, and of course a fancy vacation (because you have obviously earned it, right?). the key is discipline, have a plan and stick to it.
the second factor is the issue of time. it is easy to overlook, but if this job only requires 40hours/week that can be a pretty good luxury. but again, i'd exercise caution and spend the extra time working towards your goals and have a plan for doing this. it can be very easy to fall into a habit of just coming home every night an watching tv (especially if your job sucks and your are more accustomed to working a lot of hours from previous offices.)
good luck
Do it. If it wasn't really woth it you wouldn't be asking. 80k/yr. is definitly not chump change. You will realize that sometime the devil has it's reasons for existing too. If anything it will confirm and validate why the devil is the devil and you will have enough time and maybe even money left over to take a good hard look at your own venture. Good luck, go for it!!
two words for you peter keating:
howard roark
If you are seriously considering it, take it. Most architecture jobs are boring as hell and don't give you much in return, not to mention that most architecture stinks (I find it hard to believe that most people on here are doing good design on a regular basis, if they are, I've never seen it).
Make it work. Who knows, you could find that they let you do what you want, as long as it comes in on budget and helps them make money. From my personal experience, working with developers is easier than working with architects.
Good luck.
Oh, and are you sure you'd be selling your soul to work for a developer? Sure we haven't all already sold our souls??
As long as you having something you're striving for, I think you should take it. If not, it would be very easy to get sucked in without even meaning to and spend years upong years there without being able to break free. Don't let the creature comforts of the job get to you; tell yourself that you're only going to do it for X number of years and stick to that. Invest in a CD or something that has a certain expiration date and use that cash to start your own venture. Just don't get sucked in.
Good luck.
it's more than chump change, it's 20k more, but i get your point Shalak....i think the devil will own me for a while, i just hope it's not Little Nicky......
everyone has made great points, i will have to keep within my means and sock the money away, i think it helps that i am getting side work that i can pick and choose to do. what i mean by that is that i won't do just any crap either, it must be the kind of work i am building towards in my future venture - not unlike the new addition i am doing now.
peter- take the job. and don't worry about the pact...there isn't one to be made.
i think it's sad that all young "designers" think working for a developer is selling out. in fact, those of you who work long hours w/o overtime pay and embarrassingly low salaries in "design" firms should be the ones to wonder if you've "sold out".
peter- the reality is that any job can be dull no matter if you're cranking out 100s of apartment units or detailing the toilet in a multimillion dollar custom house. it's what you make of it and who you have around you to learn from.
as you've indicated, you see your work as a means to and end. And along the way, perhaps you will actually have a chance to impart some of your design skills to a segment of the population that does not generally benefit from architectural involvement.
it's time that we put all our architectural egos aside and recognize that multifamily housing is an area of increased attention and with the unsustainable practices of sprawl and the need to densify our cities, for those of you who haven't been looking in the european architectural journals...welcome to the design world. some of the most amazing projects being published are multifamily housing.
peter, you have a great opportunity to do something great.
so take the job as a challenge. be a rockstar and show them what you can do and really make a difference!
and in 5 years when you've saved up enough cash to develop your own hip, urban condos or other great projects, you can hire some of the interns on this list that are wallowing in the same underpaid jobs they are in now.
if u can make this money with no registration take it.
word..whats your experience level? If you don't want to sell your soul to this devil I sure would!
70k right out of school?
wtf?
yeah, i may have to take that job if you don't.
or go to a design firm and make closer to half that.
Peter,
Dont forget that included with the monetary aspects of this job, is the knowledge that you will need to start your own firm, and move into the development field, develop contacts, learn about finance etc, etc. Generally, you are either in a position where you learn what to do or what not to do - both situations can be helpful. You may dislike working on a mass-produced item, but in doing so, you will learn alternatives by comparison.
If you are really fortunate you may be able to start [subtly] changing the nature of the kinds of developments you are talking about.
I am in a similar position to yourself. I ditched a traditional architectural job at a firm, to set up a consultancy to developers. I havent looked back...
Selling out is only an industry perception. In 5 years time when you are doing your own thing, you will be able to do so with more security and less compromise, and thats an unbeatable proposition...
WOW...this is good, honest too. i am not a fresh out school intern - i wish i'd had an opportunity like this then too - i have been working for the same firm for a few years and i can see the end of the world when it comes to the kind of work i am doing now, and i am really concerned about my job stability, i am sorry i left that part out. seems like a no brainer when i point that out i know, i know part of me is just a little afraid of starting over. it's been a while since i've been in the deep end of the pool and i want to make sure i remember how to swim...
i have a question, is there any resource available - aside from insidearch - to us that will identify shit architecture firms? forget the design, i am talking about their ability to make payroll and the related issues...
1). where is the job? 70k is fairly good $ in some areas - near poverty level in others.
2). do you have the drive to create your own venture after putting in 40 hours doing the mundane - or will you simply become comfortable. i always think of michael caine - the actor. he openly admits doing mundane commercial projects in order to support his more serious work. if that's you then go for it.
70k near poverty?! careful that tongue doesn't blast straight through your cheek.
The devil will only own your soul outright for the time you are there, but it will take a while longer to shake yourself free of the guy completely. Don't stay there too long, because you'll be able to get a better job with the experience, but still not neccessarily as good a job as you'd want, because your experience will be with such shitty projects. If you're looking for outright experience, or experience at a particular responsibility level (i.e. you're making the jump to project manager, etc.), do it for a couple of years, and then move on.
"70k near poverty?! careful that tongue doesn't blast straight through your cheek."
really... im a summer intern...and if i did work there for a year i would only get 15k... so sad but true...
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