So, I'm graduating in May, and I've got my first interview coming up soon, and I feel confident about my work, my experience, my resume, everything. Except money. I'm graduating from a 5 year program that's particularly respected in my area (I'm staying in LA), have a lot of experience, know the right computer programs, and have strong design skills (though not everyone agrees with my minimalist tendencies, tend to get an 'A-' in studio). How much should I ask to be paid? Any thoughts/help on this would be much appreciated...
yeah, just on the first few entries, we've got people who are about my level- they're one or two years out of school, but have a lesser degree- that are in my area, but have a 14,000 difference in their salaries! The salary poll is a great idea, don't get me wrong, but that's a big difference.
Would you ask for something at the high end of the range, and risk pricing yourself out? Or would you ask for something lower, and then wonder if you could have gotten more? There are people in my class that are determined to start at 50,000, and some who will take 30,000... does anyone have a strategy for what to ask for? I was told by my parents (not architects) to ask for 2,000 more than I actually want to make, because they'll never just match your price outright. But then I've known firms to not make a counter-offer if you say too high a number at the beginning. Is it better to state a fixed price, or a price range?
You asking good questions Erin. And there are not any real straight answers especially in Arch. You right about not wanting to suggest to high of a price, however you should have a decent idea for the LA area. If I was you, in this market I would start the bidding at 47 and hope for 45 in a big firm in LA. If you want to work for a major design firm then I'd consider significantly less.
I just took a class on Negotiations for my MBA. However, I have a feeling there's not going to be much room to negotiate for an Architectural internship.
Be honest with yourself and look past the short-lived thrill of landing the job. What will it REALLY take for you to be happy at a given job months down the road?
I would personally rather ask for too much, but that might be because I tend to ask for too little.
Or just take what you can get and feel lucky to have it.
You can also come up with an amount that seems reasonable and that you would accept based on looking at the salary poll and talking to your friends, then if and when prospective employers ask how much you want get them to tell you what they are offering for someone with your experience for this position. You should always be ready to say you'll need time to decide if you do get an offer - so if they offer you something you consider to be too low you can say you'd like the job but would they be able to offer "x".
When I graduated with a master's in LA 5 years ago, the starting range was probably 30-38,000. I can't imagine it would have gone up to the high 40s in that short a period of time, maybe I'm wrong but I think you're more likely to get an offer in the mid/high 30's or low 40's.
Also of course depends where you are looking and your exact experience - shoot for more if it's corporate and you're making the most of the school you attended.
I personally had the experience of getting turned down because I asked for too much (which was 35K at the time) - I have also had the experience of being offered something decent and asking for more, which they politely declined and explained why, so I took another job where I had asked for something high and they offered me even more. To make a long story short, it takes some experience to get a feel for negotiating and what you are worth. Right out of school you need a job more than you need a lot of money, but don't take something you will not be able to live on or that you will be unhappy about. It may be that you have to shop around and you end up deciding not to work somewhere because they won't pay you enough. But in my experience if you're interested in design it's more important to try out a firm whose work you respect (and there may not be that many in LA...) than to worry that you're making as much as your friends.
Straight outta school with a bachelor's degree, I would say you can hope to make $30K or a little less in LA. My first job was in Tucson in 1999 and I started at $11 per hour - aka $22k per year. Of course, that is in a smaller market out on the desert frontier...
I think as a student coming fresh out of school you have to keep in mind that any firm that hires you is going to consider it as an investment in you. They are going to take a bit of a loss on your time at first since you won't have much practical experience, but they will work to groom you into a more productive member of the firm. It's natural for a student to have little experience with the day to day work of a firm, but you have to start somewhere. Be open to learn as much as you can, even if you end up taking a job at a firm that doesn't do the kind of work you are really interested in doing. The business of architecture is a multi-faceted, and you can learn alot from an architect is who good at business, construction documents and client relations even if they are a shitty designer. That experience won't make you less of a designer, and will help you gains skills in the areas that most respected designers normally lack (ie How to properly flash a parapet or detail a corner).
Architecture is not a profession that really breeds too many rich people. My brother graduated from a program in English and Technical writing, and he was astounded that he wasn't able to get $45k per year in his first job. I had to remind him that I had gone to school longer and harder than him, and after 5 years of working I wasn't even up to that level yet. Of course, that is more a symptom of how undervalued architecture is in our society. People aren't willing to pay architects what they are worth because they do not understand the worth they can provide.
Best of luck. Don't take less than you can afford to live on because that sucks too, but be flexible in your negotiations. I would ask for $5k more than you need. They may offer a little more than they wanted to, and you cut back a bit on your original price and still you are ahead about 25 large.
Lastly, when you are in your interviews, try to be as engaging and as fun as possible. For sure you are going to be evaluated on your design skills, you savvy in every 3D program under the sun and your graphic abilities to compose a portfolio, but architecture is such a time intensive job people really need to get along with each other. You may be a great designer but if you have a boring personality, no one will want to work with you. Personal chemistry counts for a lot in an interview, and 45 minutes is not much time to get a feel for someone. Don't be shy!
emmfour, I gotta say, I think you got hosed. I don't know anyone (even those who graduated 2001) who started for 30k or less, the lowest I've heard of is 32k, and that was several years ago. I guess my dillemma is that I know the market really well, and know that I'm worth the top rate they'd pay for someone my age, but know that not just any place will pay that. If that makes any sense...
But yeah, as far as what I'm looking for in them, I'll be happy with pretty much anywhere that doesn't have scary mean people and will put me into a design team. I just fear being pigeon holed into construction documents based on my previous experience, so I'll go with almost anybody who offers me a design job at the right price. And you really can't live on 30k in LA if you've got school loans (which I have, in plenty).
Thanks everyone, for your advice. I guess this thread has just emphasized the huge difference in opinion on the topic, but at least I know I'm not the only one who's uncertain about it!
working in LA, i feel it all depends on what type of architect you work for. if you go big corporate commercial architecture you can expect to make more, if you work for someone more design oriented, not so much. pick your poison.
I agree with silver lake, that is a good guess, but remember most architecture offices make most of their money off of the drafting, so fight for the money you want, let them make an offer then counter 10% above it. Expect 5%, but make sure you can live comfortably off of that. And make sure you get paid by the hour or at least get comp. for overtime.. they will work you as much as you let them. I have never known anyone that was fired because they said no to overtime... in fact , in most states that is illegal. .. Ok so I have gotten off track a bit.
USC Erin - I had some friends that came from USC and did the MR+D program over at SCIARC with me. From what I understood from them - everyone was hoping to get 50K coming from that school - far stretch.
Several things: For some reason Cal-Poly people seem to have a better entry rate than USC, mainly because USC, UCLA, SCIARC grads are usually considered designer oriented. Cal-Poly more "technical" so firms usually feel they're better hiring for what they want you to do (usually drafting from the get go).
Last year - there were several firms hiring @ O.C. - 40k a year plus 5k signing - blah, blah, blah. The only problems with those firms are the lack of potential growth.
Personally - if I were in your situation again. I would look for a firm that pays you "resonably" and offers a re-evaluation - potentional for growth after 90 days.
In all reality - beyond the boutique firms - 50k is really high just coming out of school. I would shoot for 40 Corporate - 35 Boutique. Interns have been known for "boosting" their salaries when speaking to friends (just from experience).
I've later made friends with Principles of firms and they have made subsequent offers to me - under no circumstances were they going to pay me (a person who they sought out - as high as a payrate as my friends said they were getting paid, their practices couldn't afford it).
bigger the firm, bigger the salary is completely wrong!!! this is from personal experience. you have to take into consideration of benefits, specifically retirement plans.
my old firm had a kick ass retirmement plan(401 non-match, profit sharing, and esop) but base salry was stupid low. in 5-7 years i would have a nice stash in an account, but i can only withdrawl from it based on a schedule. the downside is that if i wanted to purchase a home, banks would look at my base salary and give me nothing.
in my new firm, which is half the size, is giving me almost a %25 increase, but no retirement plan, just 401. but at least i can save on my own and be eligible for a larger home loan.
so you have to way to options and prioritize what's important. i rather take control of my retirement account and be able to withdrawl from it anytime i want. none of my money is taxed as a bouns so i save even more.
balance out the taxes as well. if a company tries to real you in with bonuse, don't buy it. it's taxed close to 40%. i don't understand how anyone buys into that.
go to a firm where they give you financial control and not the other way around.
If the firm is an A/E firm, ask for b/tween 45K-50K
If it is just an Arch/Design firm- ask for b/tween 40K-45K, but pick a more precise number.
If you're that desperate and wind up going to just an Engineering firm, take a deep breath and ask for 65K. You'll be happy when you find out that their young engineers start at 67K.
I started less than 30k graduating 2001. (Not in LA). This was fall of 01 and the economy sucked - might have had something to do with it. But I think of it this way, someone had to take a huge chance on me to hire me even though I had some experience, the portfolio and the grades. I had to prove to them that I was even worth a penny by working for them.
For my next job, I will be able to market myself as invaluable to a firm and that they'd be stupid to pass me up. This is where I expect to negotiate a nice salary. I honestly think I would not have been offered my first job had I tried to negotiate a higher salary. As a recent grad, I had no clout - I was honest with myself and realized I wasn't worth a crap and with some good advice I humbly took the job. What would I have negotiated? Would I pull out my school portfolio and show them the fancy graphics again? Or pull out my transcripts and say I got A's in studio? They would have told me "thats nice" and to come back in three to five years. I even graduated from the program that employers nation-wide say the recent graduates are the most hire-able (Iowa State).
I have gotten decent raises several times since and have received praise for my work ethic and ability to pick up on anything they trhow my way. I have gotten to do design work from day one along with the really boring parts like standard details. But mostly I am a little selfish architectural leech gleaning whatever I can from my daily experiences for me to take with me to my next job so I can get a good salary there. I get by on a low salary now knowing that it will come in later years and that I am getting paid in opportunity and experience. I know I bitch a lot, but I really do have a dream job regardless of salary (it's just not MY dream job for various reasons which I will not get into).
So my advice to a recent grad is: money should not be a priority - yes you need to live, but the money will come soon, but later. You still have to prove yourself. Don't count on the name of the school on your degree to get you money - it can certainly land you a cool job (from another alumni who can relate to you) but I don't think it helps with the money yet. Better concentrate on the job you want and not the salary it affords. I know you specifically asked what you should ask for. I think you should ask them what they will pay you and ask for 2-3k more, but don't be surprised if they don't.
I just took a class on Negotiations for my MBA. However, I have a feeling there's not going to be much room to negotiate for an Architectural internship.
50 is pretty high. you would have to be billed out at a very high rate (somewhere in the 100-110/hr range) in order for someone to make money off of you. even if i take your self-assessment at face value, i wouldn't think that you have more work experience than summers and possibly winter breaks. you were lamenting not wanting to be pegged doing cd's and wanted to be doing design work, but i, as an employer, would be dubious of your ability to incorporate a strong sense of constructability into the design at this stage, without a fair amount of guidance or sheer time to figure it out (time that is very hard to justify at those rates). i'm not trying to comment on or criticize your abilities but to point out that you would have to be exceptionally rare for someone just graduating.
for comparison, our research at ga tech shows the average for a masters graduate to be roughly 37k. for those with the b.s. (4 year) roughly 33k.
Make a detailed budget of how much you need per year for absolute necessities. Add 10% for those little extras that make live decent and livable and another %10 as savings to ensure a measure of financial security. Then take the number you’ve arrived at and multiply the total by an architecture-don’t-pay-for-shit coefficient of 0.5. This is the salary you should expect.
Update:
thank you guys for all the advice. So far I've had two interviews (nailed them, expect offers from both within the week), and nobody's batted an eye at the $42,000 price tag yet!
medical, optical, 401k. not the biggest benefits package in the world, but everything else was in line with what I wanted- the right types of projects, right area, design position, good hours. so I figured I could do a lot worse than not having dental or licensing paid for.
how much money should I ask for?
So, I'm graduating in May, and I've got my first interview coming up soon, and I feel confident about my work, my experience, my resume, everything. Except money. I'm graduating from a 5 year program that's particularly respected in my area (I'm staying in LA), have a lot of experience, know the right computer programs, and have strong design skills (though not everyone agrees with my minimalist tendencies, tend to get an 'A-' in studio). How much should I ask to be paid? Any thoughts/help on this would be much appreciated...
check out the salary poll.
yeah, just on the first few entries, we've got people who are about my level- they're one or two years out of school, but have a lesser degree- that are in my area, but have a 14,000 difference in their salaries! The salary poll is a great idea, don't get me wrong, but that's a big difference.
Would you ask for something at the high end of the range, and risk pricing yourself out? Or would you ask for something lower, and then wonder if you could have gotten more? There are people in my class that are determined to start at 50,000, and some who will take 30,000... does anyone have a strategy for what to ask for? I was told by my parents (not architects) to ask for 2,000 more than I actually want to make, because they'll never just match your price outright. But then I've known firms to not make a counter-offer if you say too high a number at the beginning. Is it better to state a fixed price, or a price range?
You asking good questions Erin. And there are not any real straight answers especially in Arch. You right about not wanting to suggest to high of a price, however you should have a decent idea for the LA area. If I was you, in this market I would start the bidding at 47 and hope for 45 in a big firm in LA. If you want to work for a major design firm then I'd consider significantly less.
I just took a class on Negotiations for my MBA. However, I have a feeling there's not going to be much room to negotiate for an Architectural internship.
Be honest with yourself and look past the short-lived thrill of landing the job. What will it REALLY take for you to be happy at a given job months down the road?
I would personally rather ask for too much, but that might be because I tend to ask for too little.
Or just take what you can get and feel lucky to have it.
You can also come up with an amount that seems reasonable and that you would accept based on looking at the salary poll and talking to your friends, then if and when prospective employers ask how much you want get them to tell you what they are offering for someone with your experience for this position. You should always be ready to say you'll need time to decide if you do get an offer - so if they offer you something you consider to be too low you can say you'd like the job but would they be able to offer "x".
When I graduated with a master's in LA 5 years ago, the starting range was probably 30-38,000. I can't imagine it would have gone up to the high 40s in that short a period of time, maybe I'm wrong but I think you're more likely to get an offer in the mid/high 30's or low 40's.
Also of course depends where you are looking and your exact experience - shoot for more if it's corporate and you're making the most of the school you attended.
I personally had the experience of getting turned down because I asked for too much (which was 35K at the time) - I have also had the experience of being offered something decent and asking for more, which they politely declined and explained why, so I took another job where I had asked for something high and they offered me even more. To make a long story short, it takes some experience to get a feel for negotiating and what you are worth. Right out of school you need a job more than you need a lot of money, but don't take something you will not be able to live on or that you will be unhappy about. It may be that you have to shop around and you end up deciding not to work somewhere because they won't pay you enough. But in my experience if you're interested in design it's more important to try out a firm whose work you respect (and there may not be that many in LA...) than to worry that you're making as much as your friends.
Straight outta school with a bachelor's degree, I would say you can hope to make $30K or a little less in LA. My first job was in Tucson in 1999 and I started at $11 per hour - aka $22k per year. Of course, that is in a smaller market out on the desert frontier...
I think as a student coming fresh out of school you have to keep in mind that any firm that hires you is going to consider it as an investment in you. They are going to take a bit of a loss on your time at first since you won't have much practical experience, but they will work to groom you into a more productive member of the firm. It's natural for a student to have little experience with the day to day work of a firm, but you have to start somewhere. Be open to learn as much as you can, even if you end up taking a job at a firm that doesn't do the kind of work you are really interested in doing. The business of architecture is a multi-faceted, and you can learn alot from an architect is who good at business, construction documents and client relations even if they are a shitty designer. That experience won't make you less of a designer, and will help you gains skills in the areas that most respected designers normally lack (ie How to properly flash a parapet or detail a corner).
Architecture is not a profession that really breeds too many rich people. My brother graduated from a program in English and Technical writing, and he was astounded that he wasn't able to get $45k per year in his first job. I had to remind him that I had gone to school longer and harder than him, and after 5 years of working I wasn't even up to that level yet. Of course, that is more a symptom of how undervalued architecture is in our society. People aren't willing to pay architects what they are worth because they do not understand the worth they can provide.
Best of luck. Don't take less than you can afford to live on because that sucks too, but be flexible in your negotiations. I would ask for $5k more than you need. They may offer a little more than they wanted to, and you cut back a bit on your original price and still you are ahead about 25 large.
Lastly, when you are in your interviews, try to be as engaging and as fun as possible. For sure you are going to be evaluated on your design skills, you savvy in every 3D program under the sun and your graphic abilities to compose a portfolio, but architecture is such a time intensive job people really need to get along with each other. You may be a great designer but if you have a boring personality, no one will want to work with you. Personal chemistry counts for a lot in an interview, and 45 minutes is not much time to get a feel for someone. Don't be shy!
emmfour, I gotta say, I think you got hosed. I don't know anyone (even those who graduated 2001) who started for 30k or less, the lowest I've heard of is 32k, and that was several years ago. I guess my dillemma is that I know the market really well, and know that I'm worth the top rate they'd pay for someone my age, but know that not just any place will pay that. If that makes any sense...
But yeah, as far as what I'm looking for in them, I'll be happy with pretty much anywhere that doesn't have scary mean people and will put me into a design team. I just fear being pigeon holed into construction documents based on my previous experience, so I'll go with almost anybody who offers me a design job at the right price. And you really can't live on 30k in LA if you've got school loans (which I have, in plenty).
Thanks everyone, for your advice. I guess this thread has just emphasized the huge difference in opinion on the topic, but at least I know I'm not the only one who's uncertain about it!
working in LA, i feel it all depends on what type of architect you work for. if you go big corporate commercial architecture you can expect to make more, if you work for someone more design oriented, not so much. pick your poison.
if you go to a corporate firm ask for 38, hope to get 35.
if you go to a boutique firm ask for 32 hope to get 30.
I agree with silver lake, that is a good guess, but remember most architecture offices make most of their money off of the drafting, so fight for the money you want, let them make an offer then counter 10% above it. Expect 5%, but make sure you can live comfortably off of that. And make sure you get paid by the hour or at least get comp. for overtime.. they will work you as much as you let them. I have never known anyone that was fired because they said no to overtime... in fact , in most states that is illegal. .. Ok so I have gotten off track a bit.
USC Erin - I had some friends that came from USC and did the MR+D program over at SCIARC with me. From what I understood from them - everyone was hoping to get 50K coming from that school - far stretch.
Several things: For some reason Cal-Poly people seem to have a better entry rate than USC, mainly because USC, UCLA, SCIARC grads are usually considered designer oriented. Cal-Poly more "technical" so firms usually feel they're better hiring for what they want you to do (usually drafting from the get go).
Last year - there were several firms hiring @ O.C. - 40k a year plus 5k signing - blah, blah, blah. The only problems with those firms are the lack of potential growth.
Personally - if I were in your situation again. I would look for a firm that pays you "resonably" and offers a re-evaluation - potentional for growth after 90 days.
In all reality - beyond the boutique firms - 50k is really high just coming out of school. I would shoot for 40 Corporate - 35 Boutique. Interns have been known for "boosting" their salaries when speaking to friends (just from experience).
I've later made friends with Principles of firms and they have made subsequent offers to me - under no circumstances were they going to pay me (a person who they sought out - as high as a payrate as my friends said they were getting paid, their practices couldn't afford it).
bigger the firm, bigger the salary is completely wrong!!! this is from personal experience. you have to take into consideration of benefits, specifically retirement plans.
my old firm had a kick ass retirmement plan(401 non-match, profit sharing, and esop) but base salry was stupid low. in 5-7 years i would have a nice stash in an account, but i can only withdrawl from it based on a schedule. the downside is that if i wanted to purchase a home, banks would look at my base salary and give me nothing.
in my new firm, which is half the size, is giving me almost a %25 increase, but no retirement plan, just 401. but at least i can save on my own and be eligible for a larger home loan.
so you have to way to options and prioritize what's important. i rather take control of my retirement account and be able to withdrawl from it anytime i want. none of my money is taxed as a bouns so i save even more.
balance out the taxes as well. if a company tries to real you in with bonuse, don't buy it. it's taxed close to 40%. i don't understand how anyone buys into that.
go to a firm where they give you financial control and not the other way around.
If the firm is an A/E firm, ask for b/tween 45K-50K
If it is just an Arch/Design firm- ask for b/tween 40K-45K, but pick a more precise number.
If you're that desperate and wind up going to just an Engineering firm, take a deep breath and ask for 65K. You'll be happy when you find out that their young engineers start at 67K.
I started less than 30k graduating 2001. (Not in LA). This was fall of 01 and the economy sucked - might have had something to do with it. But I think of it this way, someone had to take a huge chance on me to hire me even though I had some experience, the portfolio and the grades. I had to prove to them that I was even worth a penny by working for them.
For my next job, I will be able to market myself as invaluable to a firm and that they'd be stupid to pass me up. This is where I expect to negotiate a nice salary. I honestly think I would not have been offered my first job had I tried to negotiate a higher salary. As a recent grad, I had no clout - I was honest with myself and realized I wasn't worth a crap and with some good advice I humbly took the job. What would I have negotiated? Would I pull out my school portfolio and show them the fancy graphics again? Or pull out my transcripts and say I got A's in studio? They would have told me "thats nice" and to come back in three to five years. I even graduated from the program that employers nation-wide say the recent graduates are the most hire-able (Iowa State).
I have gotten decent raises several times since and have received praise for my work ethic and ability to pick up on anything they trhow my way. I have gotten to do design work from day one along with the really boring parts like standard details. But mostly I am a little selfish architectural leech gleaning whatever I can from my daily experiences for me to take with me to my next job so I can get a good salary there. I get by on a low salary now knowing that it will come in later years and that I am getting paid in opportunity and experience. I know I bitch a lot, but I really do have a dream job regardless of salary (it's just not MY dream job for various reasons which I will not get into).
So my advice to a recent grad is: money should not be a priority - yes you need to live, but the money will come soon, but later. You still have to prove yourself. Don't count on the name of the school on your degree to get you money - it can certainly land you a cool job (from another alumni who can relate to you) but I don't think it helps with the money yet. Better concentrate on the job you want and not the salary it affords. I know you specifically asked what you should ask for. I think you should ask them what they will pay you and ask for 2-3k more, but don't be surprised if they don't.
no matter what you do, nego=$$
usc -
50 is pretty high. you would have to be billed out at a very high rate (somewhere in the 100-110/hr range) in order for someone to make money off of you. even if i take your self-assessment at face value, i wouldn't think that you have more work experience than summers and possibly winter breaks. you were lamenting not wanting to be pegged doing cd's and wanted to be doing design work, but i, as an employer, would be dubious of your ability to incorporate a strong sense of constructability into the design at this stage, without a fair amount of guidance or sheer time to figure it out (time that is very hard to justify at those rates). i'm not trying to comment on or criticize your abilities but to point out that you would have to be exceptionally rare for someone just graduating.
for comparison, our research at ga tech shows the average for a masters graduate to be roughly 37k. for those with the b.s. (4 year) roughly 33k.
Make a detailed budget of how much you need per year for absolute necessities. Add 10% for those little extras that make live decent and livable and another %10 as savings to ensure a measure of financial security. Then take the number you’ve arrived at and multiply the total by an architecture-don’t-pay-for-shit coefficient of 0.5. This is the salary you should expect.
Update:
thank you guys for all the advice. So far I've had two interviews (nailed them, expect offers from both within the week), and nobody's batted an eye at the $42,000 price tag yet!
Update #2:
cancell that last one. Just got HIRED for $42,000/year!!!
YAY!
awsome
congrats. good luck.
did you negotiate it?
Didn't need to. I asked for 42, they said OK. I feel satisfied.
thats great.
other benefits?
medical, optical, 401k. not the biggest benefits package in the world, but everything else was in line with what I wanted- the right types of projects, right area, design position, good hours. so I figured I could do a lot worse than not having dental or licensing paid for.
congrats on the job...
how many years work experience do you have?
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