Building on a downslope hillside lot in the hills of Los Angeles is, of course, absurdly expensive, labor intensive, and time consuming. It’s undoubtedly a fool’s errand for an average, inexperienced home owner like myself.
But as I understand it, building a hillside house on stilts is marginally less expensive and easier than constructing a standard hillside home with an elaborate foundation.
Purely for my own edification, how much less expensive is it? What’s involved? For context, my dream is to build a single story, 1,500 to 2,000 square foot classic MCM Neutra-esque hillside house on stilts.
Hire a fucking architect and structural engineer. Pay them for their time and they will answer all your questions.
See point 1
Hillside construction is wicked expensive... your foundation could be a million or more depending on condition esp in California. Again, refer to point 1.
Professional advice costs real money. If you can't afford to hire professionals, you can't afford to build.
Aug 5, 22 12:10 pm ·
·
BluecornGroup
wow - what a command of the English language ...
Aug 27, 24 11:56 am ·
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Non Sequitur
well, English is not my first language. Also, who cares, the points above still stand.
Aug 28, 24 9:37 am ·
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BluecornGroup
second language or not professionals don't use the word "f**k" in any correspondence ...
Aug 28, 24 11:14 am ·
·
Non Sequitur
Da fuck you talking about? Fuck is great fucking word, tabarnac.
Hire and pay an architect to answer these questions.
I'm sure you're not aware but answering the questions you've asked are what architects are paid for.
Don't go online to try and get answers to questions like this. You have no idea what you're doing and thus won't know if the 'free' advise you're getting is accurate.
but Chad, my free advice, as well as yours, is certainly accurate. Are your saying that paying a professional might result in a different answer? Please help keep me distracted on this sunny Friday afternoon.
What everyone else said about hiring an architect and engineer, but a little bit of free advice from an LA architect (and, no, before you ask, I'm not available):
Building Codes have changed a LOT since all of those beautiful stilt houses were built back in the 40s-60s, which is why you don't see many newer houses built that way. I'm not an expert, but my guess is it's probably not a big cost saving anymore, possibly even more expensive, and maybe just not possible at all.
(Also, a bit of an architectonic history digression: Those houses are not actually supported by those skinny little "stilts" - what they actually are, structurally, is cantilevered, with the "stilts" primarily there to stop the house feeling like it's bouncing when you walk around [think diving board].)
There are structural engineers who specialize in Los Angeles hillside construction - I'd look for one of them for real advice.
I loved that they explained how he got the money from a movie, since anyone in LA knew immediately that there's no way a detective's salary bought that house.
Thank you for all the replies. And apologies if I offended anyone. I have the utmost respect for everyone here and wouldn’t dream of asking anyone for free professional advice. Were I to persuade this as anything beyond a hypothetical question for my own edification, I would, of course, hire a professional architect and structural engineer.
And I’ve actually never seen Bosch. :) Just currently live in an mid-century home and love design and architecture from that era.
I think it’s fine to ask as many questions as you need to, how else will you learn?
We are close to pulling permits on our hillside build.
Despite what others have said here, Don’t rely on architects for cost estimations. Ask builders and contractors.
stilt houses are no longer allowed due to codes. It is however cheaper to avoid a lower level and any excavation and retaining wall required, which is what we ended up doing. Not cantilevered, which would be enormously expensive, just supported by a tall framed wall resulting in a voluminous crawl space I hope to use for a workshop, storage etc.
Dec 24, 22 3:47 am ·
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proto
So…round costs, then, for your project?
Dec 24, 22 11:18 am ·
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DaSwede
About 200K for the foundation and $250/sf vertical
please come back and show us pictures of your construction site, would you? I wish you the best, but nothing you wrote above makes any sense, god bless you.
Dec 26, 22 3:21 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
250$ per sq.ft sounds about right for a tool shed on slight inclined site in Cali.
You came back two years later to show a picture of a stepped footing house. Good for you I guess.
Did you hire an architect?
How much did the house cost?
Aug 27, 24 10:37 am ·
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JonathanLivingston
I have some concerns about that site. What's the height of the retaining wall to the north? Why isn't any rebar capped? Why are there still plants inside the foundation? You definitely got the cheap guys. Hope it works out.
The height is 9.5' (it's actually to the west). We are pouring the top slab this week, the rebar will be bent and in the slab. There are plants because it's taken a long time with rain, a few setbacks and, yes, I got the cheap guys so there have been some time consuming corrections. The foundation finish line is this week so I would say it worked out in the end.
Aug 28, 24 9:35 am ·
·
JonathanLivingston
9.5' is a huge fall risk hopefully you have some protection designed for the final conditions, It should be protected during construction and would be called out during inspections, similar with rebar safety capping. Beyond that 9.5' is a large wall and your house load is a significantly added surcharge to that wall, I hope it was designed to accommodate that. Watch out for plants undermining / disturbing foundations. Plants growing there is a sign the soil may not have been properly compacted and could lead to significant settlement issues later. The cheap guys will usually still get it done and move on. The major problems will really show themselves years later. Its expensive lesson to learn when you have to retro fit / tear down.
Thanks for showing your progress. I imagine if you posted this 2 years ago, it wouldn't be as easy to see the foundation. I wouldn't mind seeing more progress pictures to see how your project is going.
Just designed a mountainside in Evergreen, CO which is west of Denver toward Vail and a few in the Rocky Mountains of New Mexico - you are correct in building an elevated and cantilevered residence that floats above steep terrain - "stilts" would indicate a series of thin profile pole-like members as the "foundation" - a number of isolated concrete support pillars for a stairway, ramp, or elevator as well as utilities is the foundation for the home which is designed in the sky - unreal architectural dynamics in an ultra-modern modular style where a crane truck sets your modular sections - the support columns use geo-mats to stabilize the earth around the tower structure footers - support towers about $200K each with excavation and grading work - cantilever bridged superstructure about $400 to $600 SF - the days of expensively burrowing into the ground are over due to deteriorating soil conditions cause by climate change - I hope your realize you dream home ...
JLC-1, the foundation in the photo is a deep foundation with 14 piles. Cost was 250K, the increase attributed to the pandemic effects. A neighbor just built his 4 pile foundation for 130K .
sure, some contractors wanted 500K for the same job.
There is a lot of negativity in this forum and I wish to offer encouragement to those who dream of building their own home.
2 years, yes because that’s how long it takes.
Educate yourself, hire an architect or a design/build firm, be realistic about the costs and don’t let jerks like Non Sequitur bring you down. It might just be possible to realize your dream.
Thank you to those who share their advice and insights and offer help.
I think DaSwede and CookieJar are the same user. If not then I apologize. If they aren't the same user it is still very odd that DaSwede sought out this discussion just to post this.
DaSwede - You got one hell of a deal on that foundation. You also were fortunate to have decent 'bad' soil. I'm doing a project in CO that isn't a remote location. A foundation similar what you've shown cost $435K.
We are not the same user. I was quite taken aback by Non Sequitur's negative comment and it was always in the back of my mind. Building in LA is hard and there was a time after the pandemic hit, with rising costs, that I gave up on the project. By getting many bids, shopping around for supplies and taking on the GC role we are on track to stay on budget.
Acting as the GC you are responsible for the means and methods of construction. Including site safety liability, FYI. If someone on your job site falls at that wall or is impaled on uncapped rebar you have significant costs. As the GC you need to make sure these are taken care of with the required diligence and insurance. One of those hidden costs that help take you from 250-350.
I'm aware of that JLC-1. You still have to partner with a General Building Contractor B though.
I don't know where DaSwede is and if this is allowed.
Aug 28, 24 1:29 pm ·
·
JLC-1
nope, you can be your general contractor, no partner needed, it's your house. I know because I did it. "As a homeowner you may obtain a building permit to work on your own property without a contractor's license unless the property is a rental property. If the property is not your primary residence, then you cannot pull a homeowner's permit."
The GC isn't the only entity responsible for jobsite safety. Each state is empowered to handle this on their own. They either have their own construction safety regulations, or they defer to OSHA. If they have their own, it cannot be less stringent than OSHA. Without going into specifics, everyone involved in a construction project is responsible for adhering to the safety regulations.
Aug 28, 24 2:06 pm ·
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JonathanLivingston
The AHJ would act on that responsibility by issuing a stop work order for unsafe conditions. The GC is responsible for the means and methods of ensuring that job site safety is provided.
Aug 28, 24 2:18 pm ·
·
betonbrut
It really depends. In Seattle, the City (AHJ) does not issue stop work orders for job site safety. Washington State Labor and Industry is the enforcement agency. The GC (or whoever is acting as the GC) is a responsible party, but so is the subcontractor who may have committed the safety violation. Individuals can also be held liable. Again, jobsite safety is not the responsibility of one person or one entity. It is everyone on the jobsite. This has really wandered off course of the initial discussion. But suffice to say, it is not unique for homeowners to act as their own GC. Nor does that fundamentally change any job site safety requirements.
It is commonly believed that if an employee is covered by a workman's comp insurance policy that's where the builders or owners liability ends - an injured employee can refuse workman's comp benefits and sue the deep pocket in civil court perhaps for gross negligence - UNM had an architectural & construction law course that was taught by an architect who was also an attorney - many years ago - legal liability is also why architects don't want to be party to design-build contracts but that is another story - have other architectural schools offered a course like this or is that something from the distant past? ...
Sep 1, 24 4:51 pm ·
·
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Building an MCM Hillside House on Stilts
Building on a downslope hillside lot in the hills of Los Angeles is, of course, absurdly expensive, labor intensive, and time consuming. It’s undoubtedly a fool’s errand for an average, inexperienced home owner like myself.
But as I understand it, building a hillside house on stilts is marginally less expensive and easier than constructing a standard hillside home with an elaborate foundation.
Purely for my own edification, how much less expensive is it? What’s involved? For context, my dream is to build a single story, 1,500 to 2,000 square foot classic MCM Neutra-esque hillside house on stilts.
wow - what a command of the English language ...
well, English is not my first language. Also, who cares, the points above still stand.
second language or not professionals don't use the word "f**k" in any correspondence ...
Da fuck you talking about? Fuck is great fucking word, tabarnac.
spoken like a 12-year old ...
People who are offended by words are boring.
Hire and pay an architect to answer these questions.
I'm sure you're not aware but answering the questions you've asked are what architects are paid for.
Don't go online to try and get answers to questions like this. You have no idea what you're doing and thus won't know if the 'free' advise you're getting is accurate.
Good luck.
but Chad, my free advice, as well as yours, is certainly accurate. Are your saying that paying a professional might result in a different answer? Please help keep me distracted on this sunny Friday afternoon.
I'll give you a somewhat less snarky answer. There are too many variables to answer your question with anything approaching accuracy.
No idea on a delta btwn stepped foundations vs stilts...not sure it's significant for this level of dreaming
$3-600k to the foundation work
$2-5M for the house
18-22% for the professional fee
all guaranteed if you sign today
(just as good a guess as anyone's without any info...)
What everyone else said about hiring an architect and engineer, but a little bit of free advice from an LA architect (and, no, before you ask, I'm not available):
Building Codes have changed a LOT since all of those beautiful stilt houses were built back in the 40s-60s, which is why you don't see many newer houses built that way. I'm not an expert, but my guess is it's probably not a big cost saving anymore, possibly even more expensive, and maybe just not possible at all.
(Also, a bit of an architectonic history digression: Those houses are not actually supported by those skinny little "stilts" - what they actually are, structurally, is cantilevered, with the "stilts" primarily there to stop the house feeling like it's bouncing when you walk around [think diving board].)
There are structural engineers who specialize in Los Angeles hillside construction - I'd look for one of them for real advice.
Someone watched Bosch recently, eh?
I loved that they explained how he got the money from a movie, since anyone in LA knew immediately that there's no way a detective's salary bought that house.
Thank you for all the replies. And apologies if I offended anyone. I have the utmost respect for everyone here and wouldn’t dream of asking anyone for free professional advice. Were I to persuade this as anything beyond a hypothetical question for my own edification, I would, of course, hire a professional architect and structural engineer.
And I’ve actually never seen Bosch. :) Just currently live in an mid-century home and love design and architecture from that era.
I think it’s fine to ask as many questions as you need to, how else will you learn?
We are close to pulling permits on our hillside build.
Despite what others have said here, Don’t rely on architects for cost estimations. Ask builders and contractors.
stilt houses are no longer allowed due to codes. It is however cheaper to avoid a lower level and any excavation and retaining wall required, which is what we ended up doing. Not cantilevered, which would be enormously expensive, just supported by a tall framed wall resulting in a voluminous crawl space I hope to use for a workshop, storage etc.
So…round costs, then, for your project?
About 200K for the foundation and $250/sf vertical
Seems very low to me. Haven't seen numbers like that in LA for hillside construction in years.
please come back and show us pictures of your construction site, would you? I wish you the best, but nothing you wrote above makes any sense, god bless you.
250$ per sq.ft sounds about right for a tool shed on slight inclined site in Cali.
Will do.
You won’t.
Just did.
Non Sequitur, you were saying...?
Good for you but why come back 2y later? No one cares, it’s just a stepped foundation.
I see a lot more than $250/sf there, and no stilts
DaSwede
You came back two years later to show a picture of a stepped footing house. Good for you I guess.
Did you hire an architect?
How much did the house cost?
I have some concerns about that site. What's the height of the retaining wall to the north? Why isn't any rebar capped? Why are there still plants inside the foundation? You definitely got the cheap guys. Hope it works out.
The height is 9.5' (it's actually to the west). We are pouring the top slab this week, the rebar will be bent and in the slab. There are plants because it's taken a long time with rain, a few setbacks and, yes, I got the cheap guys so there have been some time consuming corrections. The foundation finish line is this week so I would say it worked out in the end.
9.5' is a huge fall risk hopefully you have some protection designed for the final conditions, It should be protected during construction and would be called out during inspections, similar with rebar safety capping. Beyond that 9.5' is a large wall and your house load is a significantly added surcharge to that wall, I hope it was designed to accommodate that. Watch out for plants undermining / disturbing foundations. Plants growing there is a sign the soil may not have been properly compacted and could lead to significant settlement issues later. The cheap guys will usually still get it done and move on. The major problems will really show themselves years later. Its expensive lesson to learn when you have to retro fit / tear down.
Thanks for showing your progress. I imagine if you posted this 2 years ago, it wouldn't be as easy to see the foundation. I wouldn't mind seeing more progress pictures to see how your project is going.
Just designed a mountainside in Evergreen, CO which is west of Denver toward Vail and a few in the Rocky Mountains of New Mexico - you are correct in building an elevated and cantilevered residence that floats above steep terrain - "stilts" would indicate a series of thin profile pole-like members as the "foundation" - a number of isolated concrete support pillars for a stairway, ramp, or elevator as well as utilities is the foundation for the home which is designed in the sky - unreal architectural dynamics in an ultra-modern modular style where a crane truck sets your modular sections - the support columns use geo-mats to stabilize the earth around the tower structure footers - support towers about $200K each with excavation and grading work - cantilever bridged superstructure about $400 to $600 SF - the days of expensively burrowing into the ground are over due to deteriorating soil conditions cause by climate change - I hope your realize you dream home ...
JLC-1, the foundation in the photo is a deep foundation with 14 piles. Cost was 250K, the increase attributed to the pandemic effects. A neighbor just built his 4 pile foundation for 130K .
sure, some contractors wanted 500K for the same job.
There is a lot of negativity in this forum and I wish to offer encouragement to those who dream of building their own home.
2 years, yes because that’s how long it takes.
Educate yourself, hire an architect or a design/build firm, be realistic about the costs and don’t let jerks like Non Sequitur bring you down. It might just be possible to realize your dream.
Thank you to those who share their advice and insights and offer help.
Dude... ain't no jerks here.
I was mixing you up with cookie jar, that's a nice foundation, cheap - waiting to see the $250/sf above.
I think DaSwede and CookieJar are the same user. If not then I apologize. If they aren't the same user it is still very odd that DaSwede sought out this discussion just to post this.
DaSwede - You got one hell of a deal on that foundation. You also were fortunate to have decent 'bad' soil. I'm doing a project in CO that isn't a remote location. A foundation similar what you've shown cost $435K.
"ain't no" is a double negative ;)
We are not the same user. I was quite taken aback by Non Sequitur's negative comment and it was always in the back of my mind. Building in LA is hard and there was a time after the pandemic hit, with rising costs, that I gave up on the project. By getting many bids, shopping around for supplies and taking on the GC role we are on track to stay on budget.
'taking on the GC role" is the key here, so you're really building at $350/sf if you had a GC.
DaSwede - are a licensed contractor?
chad, when you're building your own house, you can act as a gc, here in Colorado you just take a brief exam at the building dept and they get you a b card, in California is even easier https://www.cslb.ca.gov/Consumers/Building_Officials/Owner_Builder_Overview.aspx
Acting as the GC you are responsible for the means and methods of construction. Including site safety liability, FYI. If someone on your job site falls at that wall or is impaled on uncapped rebar you have significant costs. As the GC you need to make sure these are taken care of with the required diligence and insurance. One of those hidden costs that help take you from 250-350.
I'm aware of that JLC-1. You still have to partner with a General Building Contractor B though.
I don't know where DaSwede is and if this is allowed.
nope, you can be your general contractor, no partner needed, it's your house. I know because I did it. "As a homeowner you may obtain a building permit to work on your own property without a contractor's license unless the property is a rental property. If the property is not your primary residence, then you cannot pull a homeowner's permit."
Someone has to be responsible for the safety of working conditions.
https://www.aspen.gov/224/HomeownerBuilder-Licensing
The GC isn't the only entity responsible for jobsite safety. Each state is empowered to handle this on their own. They either have their own construction safety regulations, or they defer to OSHA. If they have their own, it cannot be less stringent than OSHA. Without going into specifics, everyone involved in a construction project is responsible for adhering to the safety regulations.
The AHJ would act on that responsibility by issuing a stop work order for unsafe conditions. The GC is responsible for the means and methods of ensuring that job site safety is provided.
It really depends. In Seattle, the City (AHJ) does not issue stop work orders for job site safety. Washington State Labor and Industry is the enforcement agency. The GC (or whoever is acting as the GC) is a responsible party, but so is the subcontractor who may have committed the safety violation. Individuals can also be held liable. Again, jobsite safety is not the responsibility of one person or one entity. It is everyone on the jobsite. This has really wandered off course of the initial discussion. But suffice to say, it is not unique for homeowners to act as their own GC. Nor does that fundamentally change any job site safety requirements.
JCL-1 from you links:
For CA:
"The owner builder contracts with General Building ("B") contractor. (The number of structures is then unlimited.)"
For CO:
Pitkin county (Aspen) allows it. Not every county in CO does.
Thanks for the update -- always nice to see a pic of people's efforts!
It is commonly believed that if an employee is covered by a workman's comp insurance policy that's where the builders or owners liability ends - an injured employee can refuse workman's comp benefits and sue the deep pocket in civil court perhaps for gross negligence - UNM had an architectural & construction law course that was taught by an architect who was also an attorney - many years ago - legal liability is also why architects don't want to be party to design-build contracts but that is another story - have other architectural schools offered a course like this or is that something from the distant past? ...
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