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Stop being so mysterious about posting compensation

Drew Hutcheson

Be like every other profession out there, FOR REAL.  You're not that special or mysterious, no one cares.  Grow up, we need to make a living. Y'alls shoestring budgets can either hire or they can't.  Then do it yourself.

Sincerely,

The entire profession.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

 
Oct 18, 21 3:12 pm
b3tadine[sutures]

.

Oct 18, 21 3:18 pm  · 
2  · 
Non Sequitur

da fuk you goin on about?  This ain't no wendy's.

Oct 18, 21 3:22 pm  · 
1  · 
Drew Hutcheson

Wait I was here to fix the frosty machine...

Oct 18, 21 4:10 pm  · 
 ·  1
Non Sequitur

we all know frosties come from cans, dawg.

Oct 18, 21 4:24 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

THEY WERE PUT THERE BY A MAN...

Oct 18, 21 5:36 pm  · 
3  · 
Non Sequitur

In a factory doooooowwwwwwwntown.

Oct 18, 21 5:41 pm  · 
1  · 
Almosthip

If I had my little way, I'd eat peaches every day......

Oct 18, 21 6:08 pm  · 
 · 
Almosthip

oh wait....beer I mean

Oct 18, 21 6:08 pm  · 
2  · 
Almosthip

My mom told me I was special 

Oct 18, 21 3:22 pm  · 
 · 
Drew Hutcheson

You are very special.

Oct 18, 21 4:06 pm  · 
 ·  1
Wood Guy

I'm hiring. $20 to $50 per hour, depending on skills and personality. Does that help? 

Oct 18, 21 3:33 pm  · 
2  · 
Drew Hutcheson

​Sorry charlie, but every other profession isn't so mysterious about what they pay as a starting point. If they like you they will pay more. Clearly you don't get the point woody

Oct 18, 21 4:09 pm  · 
 ·  3
Almosthip


The Architecture Salary Poll

Oct 18, 21 4:45 pm  · 
4  · 
RJ87

What occupation that requires a professional degree is more transparent? There's almost always an imbalance of power that creates an imbalance when negotiating.

Oct 18, 21 5:25 pm  · 
1  · 
msparchitect

"Big Law" is very transparent. This is basically the top tier of law firms, so the top 1% of all lawyers... but they're very lockstep and whatever they pay associates trickles down to the standard firms in mid-market cities. The top ten offices give press releases on their starting salaries and anytime one of the top firms raises salaries, the others all match. It has been an arms race for decades and has actively driven up big law salaries wildly. Even if you look at the starting associate pay 20 years ago vs the starting associate pay today, the growth rate is so much higher than the entry-level architecture job in top-tier markets.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/... 

Oct 18, 21 6:11 pm  · 
1  · 

One really big difference between the professions (other than the obvious) is that:

  • In Law: The "top ten" firms are the ones that are generally identified as the most profitable and thus pay the most. They're generally the firms most desirable to most law students but very few make it.
  • In Architecture: if you ask current students to make a list of the "top ten" firms, those are the same exact firms that don't pay interns, or if they do it's very little. Architecture students are taught not to value actual value. 
Oct 18, 21 6:13 pm  · 
10  · 
RJ87

True, I suppose Big Law & Corporate Finance like JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, etc. release yearly reports. Outside of the 1% that's pretty non existent though. It trickles down but it's not explicitly said in a press release.

James - Unfortunately architecture students are also not taught to have a whole lot of value when they first enter the profession. How buildings actually go together is pushed to the side as to not quell "design". At least from what I've seen.

Oct 18, 21 6:18 pm  · 
3  · 
Wood Guy

Drew my salary range is actually serious. I'm in a rural area with a specialty niche that is in high demand, and I can't find anyone to help me. I am paying one consultant $60/hr and would pay him at least $40/hr if he'd work for me as an employee, but he won't. I'd pay a drafter who wanted to learn my system and who has some skills but is still new $20/hr. I'd pay someone in between an in-between salary. There is nobody here to hire so it doesn't matter.

Oct 18, 21 9:17 pm  · 
6  · 
archanonymous

Brb, moving to Maine

Oct 18, 21 11:02 pm  · 
3  · 

Maine is pretty damn nice. I enjoyed my time there.

Oct 18, 21 11:11 pm  · 
5  · 
Wood Guy

Josh I might have mentioned that my biggest project at the moment is on the Gouldsboro/Winterharbor line, directly on Frenchman Bay, looking across at Bar Harbor--if there wasn't another island in the way. I'm looking forward to another site visit soon!

Oct 19, 21 8:16 am  · 
2  · 
Non Sequitur

Frenchman Bay you say? Well... tabernak.

Oct 19, 21 8:53 am  · 
2  · 
Wood Guy

https://goo.gl/maps/toQAs1yR1LrgJmTT8

Oct 19, 21 9:54 am  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

Nice spot WG. I'm currently helping out family build a tiny house/shack in Riverport NovaScotia... same region.

Oct 19, 21 10:02 am  · 
2  · 
Wood Guy

Nice! It's beautiful over there. Reminds me of what Maine was like when I was growing up. We're going to New Brunswick in a couple of weeks, though just barely across the border from Maine.

Oct 19, 21 10:07 am  · 
1  · 
joseffischer

I'm sorry wood guy, but you need to adjust your expectations and comments... there's nobody in your area at the rate you want to pay... $20/hr.... hell, might as well just swing hammers for a living. What's the point? $30/hr minimum for fresh grad, and $60/hr seems like a deal for your consultant help.

Oct 19, 21 12:01 pm  · 
 · 
joseffischer

to put it in perspective, if I know like anything about anything (fresh arch grad with youtube for instance) I could drive around fixing people's leaky faucets and changing light bulbs for $50/hr

Oct 19, 21 1:18 pm  · 
 · 
square.

there aren't hard and fast requirements, but if any government job listed will have a salary range, including for architects. it's a form of fear and withholding on the part of private businesses.

Oct 19, 21 3:12 pm  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

jose, just a few years ago I started a residential construction company and paid about 15% above local average. The only people I could find were a high school classmate between jobs and a 62 year old woman who was a friend of friends, tired of working for non-profits.

What I'll really do is advertise for 2-3 different experience levels and share roles, responsibilities and compensation ranges for each.

Oct 19, 21 3:38 pm  · 
1  · 
archanonymous

jeosef - I'm not totally clear on what your point is? Yes, many trades make more money than architects. 

 I make between $28 and $44/ hr depending on how much unpaid overtime I work (salary if I work 2000 hours a year works out to about $44/ hr). The GC on my project is currently paying $60/hr for framers with no experience. Considering I've framed light wood and HT structures plus done finish carpentry, I could probably start @ $80/hr on their crew. But I don't want to be a framer, I want to be an architect.

Oct 19, 21 7:52 pm  · 
 · 
JLC-1

drew, I really hope it's not your real name and you're not applying to jobs, cheers mate.

Oct 18, 21 4:18 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

crazy sauce. Must be a disgruntled employee trying to spoof a coworker/employer. No one is that dumb, right?

Oct 18, 21 4:29 pm  · 
1  · 
reallynotmyname

The OP may be coming off an interview experience where they did the whole gamut of cover letter, resume, interview(s) and then got a ridiculously low salary offer. A lot of architects out there don't really know what to pay people. Some are unaware of current pay rates and some are just being cheap.

Oct 19, 21 10:14 am  · 
1  · 
square.

i get the complaint... "compensation commensurate with experience" is bullshit, just be clear and list a salary range. the ambiguity only helps one side..

Oct 18, 21 5:07 pm  · 
1  · 
RJ87

I think that's the point. There's little advantage in being transparent.

Oct 18, 21 5:16 pm  · 
1  · 

Eh, I think there is great advantage in being transparent in this regard. I prefer to see job postings with an experience and salary range followed up with 'compensation commensurate with experience'

Oct 18, 21 5:54 pm  · 
2  · 
RJ87

It would be nice to know what the ceiling is, but from an employers perspective if someone says they will do the job for less money than the employer is willing to pay I'm not surprised when they let them.

Oct 18, 21 5:58 pm  · 
 · 
square.

oh i get the motivation from the employer's standpoint, but it's incredibly one-sided. it puts the prospective employee in a position of uncertainty, which weakens them when negotiating.

Oct 19, 21 9:52 am  · 
 · 

I know what everyone in my office makes. So does everyone else.

Oct 19, 21 10:09 am  · 
2  · 
square.

sounds like a healthy, not-insecure workplace chad.

Oct 19, 21 10:29 am  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

We circulated an internal compensation chart a few years back. Nothing specific to each individual's income but grouped experience + responsibilities (Arch, Int Des, Tech, Intern) in $5k to $10k salary increases (and broad details of associate and partner compensation differences). It actually caused some dissention because it showed some staff where their ceiling is. Nothing secret or groundbreaking with the salary grouping and I'm sure anyone who's moderately aware of our market could have predicted them... but some were definitively turned off and moved on... some left the profession entirely.

Oct 19, 21 11:09 am  · 
5  · 
square.

good for them, seems like they ultimately appreciated the honesty.

Oct 19, 21 4:25 pm  · 
2  · 
RJ87

I could absolutely see people leaving because they look at folks 5-10-15 years their senior & not liking what it looks like. Some people don't realize where the ceiling is until they have an example. It convinces a lot of people to go out on their own.

Oct 19, 21 5:17 pm  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

TED talks have really gone downhill since I was in school.

Oct 18, 21 5:24 pm  · 
2  · 
midlander

something i've found a couple times applying for jobs is that there are often undefined needs in a company, and there is no fixed salary because they don't know what it will take to do the job. they just want someone who will come in, get involved, and figure out how to improve the work / team / business in some way. this is less common in corporate offices that already have a structure and slots to fit into - but even there sometimes there are opportunities that depend wholly on what kind of person is available.

and so for some of these roles, the pay is basically "what do you need to be paid to take this job and put in real effort". It actually is very personal, not a one-size fits all kind of thing. Capable people who can do much more than the basic job description can get a higher title and better pay. But not too much better pay, or then they won't be motivated to strive for improvement.

That really is the meaning of "compensation commensurate with experience". It's a polite way of saying "we will pay whatever it takes to get the best person available for this role". There may not be a range, or they might adjust the range and job title if someone shows unexpected potential but otherwise exceeds the range.

Oct 18, 21 11:02 pm  · 
2  · 
midlander

even within junior level architecture jobs, there is probably a 2x-3x difference in value to the firm between designers right out of college and those with a year or two of office skills. but the variation is very individual, and can't be easily judged ahead of time. unlike big-law associates, junior architects aren't usually there just to accumulate billable hours on routine work. they really need to get stuff done and figure out how to be useful.

Oct 18, 21 11:05 pm  · 
2  · 
square.

again, this type of "evaluation" is all about what the employee can give the company, and how much the company can take from the employee. normal, sane businesses post salaries without any harm to themselves. and if they're truly uncertain, a range is fine.

Oct 19, 21 9:54 am  · 
3  · 
rcz1001

Drew Hutcheson, 

What are you going on about or your complaint exactly?

You wrote: 

"Be like every other profession out there, FOR REAL.  You're not that special or mysterious, no one cares.  Grow up, we need to make a living. Y'alls shoestring budgets can either hire or they can't.  Then do it yourself."

What are these other professions you are referring to. I know for a fact that you didn't check every profession or occupation out there. What are you defining as a profession? 

If it's a licensed profession, then your search list is more narrow but then there are those professions that are not regulated by any sort of government licensing system. This list is far too broad and big for any human being to do on their own even if they were to live to be 1000 years old. 

Don't make such likes like "Be like every other profession out their, FOR REAL".

You start the thread with a title of: "Stop being so mysterious about posting compensation"

What's so mysterious? Salary positions are generally negotiated unless the pay is explicitly stated. If an employer doesn't explicitly state the salary, it's negotiated based on similar positions with similar duties which will usually be a range. That's actually the way it works in most occupations. I simplified it and leaving out some of the drama but it's basically how it is. 


Oct 19, 21 5:16 am  · 
 · 
square.

thread's over.

Oct 19, 21 9:54 am  · 
6  · 
SlammingMiruvor

Just move to Colorado. 

Oct 19, 21 10:55 am  · 
2  · 
tintt

why dat?

Oct 19, 21 9:37 pm  · 
 · 
SlammingMiruvor

As of January 1st of this year it's Colorado State Law that an employer must disclose pay ranges/rates and benefits in job listings. So far what I've seen they just mirror the AIA Compensation Survey results for the listed title, but it's a step in the right direction.

Oct 20, 21 9:01 am  · 
1  · 
SlammingMiruvor

I say this like it's the end-all-be-all, and even here on the Archinect Job Boards less than half of the listings are in compliance.

Oct 20, 21 9:14 am  · 
1  · 

Also jobs in architecture are plentiful here in CO. Assuming you want to work in the Denver area. That or Grand Junction. ;)

Oct 20, 21 10:22 am  · 
1  · 
JLC-1

vail and breck are also busy, and aspen/snowmass as well. lots of firms hiring.

Oct 20, 21 10:28 am  · 
 · 

Yeah but the mountain towns pay too little for the cost of living. The Denver area is still expensive to live but nothing like the mountain towns. I did a quick salary comparison. To live around Denver I'd need to make 40% more, in the Breck area its 65% more to equal to what I make here. Now Grand Junction on the other hand . . .

Oct 20, 21 11:10 am  · 
3  · 
SlammingMiruvor

Yeah but a firm in Denver isn't going to pay for my Epic/Ikon Pass!

Oct 20, 21 12:13 pm  · 
1  · 
JLC-1

Just the price of health insurance around here makes me nauseous.

Oct 20, 21 1:18 pm  · 
 · 

Slamming - The mountain town firms may pay for your Epic Pass but they won't pay the $180K a year it takes to live around those areas. That's assuming you own a house, car, and don't have roommates. ;)  

I once interviewed and firm Breck. Great firm, great people. They could only afford to pay me $8k more than I make here in GJ but they did provide an Epic Pass. Too bad I don't downhill ski.

Oct 20, 21 2:50 pm  · 
2  · 
JLC-1

that's so true, I own "employee housing" but If I was paying free market rent I would be dead. SFH median price here is something like 5.4 million.

Oct 20, 21 3:54 pm  · 
 · 

Crazy isn't it. I'm doing some employee housing in Crested Butte. All their 'affordable housing' was in Gunnison. However all the wealthy people being priced out Vail, Aspen, ect have bought up all the housing there. As such Crusty Butt is having to deal with the real possibility that their town will die because middle class people can't afford to live / work around there.

Oct 20, 21 4:04 pm  · 
1  · 
JLC-1

good for you and for the project, where I live, they hired some firm out of chicago, used glulams on the exterior without paint, just clear seal. don't do that. we're in a lawsuit against the city.

Oct 20, 21 4:28 pm  · 
 · 
proto

wait a minute…i don’t get paid to post

Who’s getting paid here?!?!?

Oct 19, 21 10:21 pm  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

You're not getting paid?! If we posted here just for fun I don't think anyone would be doing it during the workday...

Oct 20, 21 5:42 pm  · 
2  · 
Non Sequitur

Yeah. Paul is literally putting my kid through Yale with all the dough I'm getting for my efforts here.

Oct 20, 21 5:59 pm  · 
2  · 

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