Be like every other profession out there, FOR REAL. You're not that special or mysterious, no one cares. Grow up, we need to make a living. Y'alls shoestring budgets can either hire or they can't. Then do it yourself.
Sorry charlie, but every other profession isn't so mysterious about what they pay as a starting point. If they like you they will pay more. Clearly you don't get the point woody
What occupation that requires a professional degree is more transparent? There's almost always an imbalance of power that creates an imbalance when negotiating.
"Big Law" is very transparent. This is basically the top tier of law firms, so the top 1% of all lawyers... but they're very lockstep and whatever they pay associates trickles down to the standard firms in mid-market cities. The top ten offices give press releases on their starting salaries and anytime one of the top firms raises salaries, the others all match. It has been an arms race for decades and has actively driven up big law salaries wildly. Even if you look at the starting associate pay 20 years ago vs the starting associate pay today, the growth rate is so much higher than the entry-level architecture job in top-tier markets.
One really big difference between the professions (other than the obvious) is that:
In Law: The "top ten" firms are the ones that are generally identified as the most profitable and thus pay the most. They're generally the firms most desirable to most law students but very few make it.
In Architecture: if you ask current students to make a list of the "top ten" firms, those are the same exact firms that don't pay interns, or if they do it's very little. Architecture students are taught not to value actual value.
True, I suppose Big Law & Corporate Finance like JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, etc. release yearly reports. Outside of the 1% that's pretty non existent though. It trickles down but it's not explicitly said in a press release.
James - Unfortunately architecture students are also not taught to have a whole lot of value when they first enter the profession. How buildings actually go together is pushed to the side as to not quell "design". At least from what I've seen.
Drew my salary range is actually serious. I'm in a rural area with a specialty niche that is in high demand, and I can't find anyone to help me. I am paying one consultant $60/hr and would pay him at least $40/hr if he'd work for me as an employee, but he won't. I'd pay a drafter who wanted to learn my system and who has some skills but is still new $20/hr. I'd pay someone in between an in-between salary. There is nobody here to hire so it doesn't matter.
Josh I might have mentioned that my biggest project at the moment is on the Gouldsboro/Winterharbor line, directly on Frenchman Bay, looking across at Bar Harbor--if there wasn't another island in the way. I'm looking forward to another site visit soon!
Nice! It's beautiful over there. Reminds me of what Maine was like when I was growing up. We're going to New Brunswick in a couple of weeks, though just barely across the border from Maine.
I'm sorry wood guy, but you need to adjust your expectations and comments... there's nobody in your area at the rate you want to pay... $20/hr.... hell, might as well just swing hammers for a living. What's the point? $30/hr minimum for fresh grad, and $60/hr seems like a deal for your consultant help.
Oct 19, 21 12:01 pm ·
·
joseffischer
to put it in perspective, if I know like anything about anything (fresh arch grad with youtube for instance) I could drive around fixing people's leaky faucets and changing light bulbs for $50/hr
Oct 19, 21 1:18 pm ·
·
square.
there aren't hard and fast requirements, but if any government job listed will have a salary range, including for architects. it's a form of fear and withholding on the part of private businesses.
Oct 19, 21 3:12 pm ·
·
Wood Guy
jose, just a few years ago I started a residential construction company and paid about 15% above local average. The only people I could find were a high school classmate between jobs and a 62 year old woman who was a friend of friends, tired of working for non-profits.
What I'll really do is advertise for 2-3 different experience levels and share roles, responsibilities and compensation ranges for each.
jeosef - I'm not totally clear on what your point is? Yes, many trades make more money than architects.
I make between $28 and $44/ hr depending on how much unpaid overtime I work (salary if I work 2000 hours a year works out to about $44/ hr). The GC on my project is currently paying $60/hr for framers with no experience. Considering I've framed light wood and HT structures plus done finish carpentry, I could probably start @ $80/hr on their crew. But I don't want to be a framer, I want to be an architect.
The OP may be coming off an interview experience where they did the whole gamut of cover letter, resume, interview(s) and then got a ridiculously low salary offer. A lot of architects out there don't really know what to pay people. Some are unaware of current pay rates and some are just being cheap.
i get the complaint... "compensation commensurate with experience" is bullshit, just be clear and list a salary range. the ambiguity only helps one side..
Eh, I think there is great advantage in being transparent in this regard. I prefer to see job postings with an experience and salary range followed up with 'compensation commensurate with experience'
It would be nice to know what the ceiling is, but from an employers perspective if someone says they will do the job for less money than the employer is willing to pay I'm not surprised when they let them.
Oct 18, 21 5:58 pm ·
·
square.
oh i get the motivation from the employer's standpoint, but it's incredibly one-sided. it puts the prospective employee in a position of uncertainty, which weakens them when negotiating.
sounds like a healthy, not-insecure workplace chad.
Oct 19, 21 10:29 am ·
·
Non Sequitur
We circulated an internal compensation chart a few years back. Nothing specific to each individual's income but grouped experience + responsibilities (Arch, Int Des, Tech, Intern) in $5k to $10k salary increases (and broad details of associate and partner compensation differences). It actually caused some dissention because it showed some staff where their ceiling is. Nothing secret or groundbreaking with the salary grouping and I'm sure anyone who's moderately aware of our market could have predicted them... but some were definitively turned off and moved on... some left the profession entirely.
I could absolutely see people leaving because they look at folks 5-10-15 years their senior & not liking what it looks like. Some people don't realize where the ceiling is until they have an example. It convinces a lot of people to go out on their own.
something i've found a couple times applying for jobs is that there are often undefined needs in a company, and there is no fixed salary because they don't know what it will take to do the job. they just want someone who will come in, get involved, and figure out how to improve the work / team / business in some way. this is less common in corporate offices that already have a structure and slots to fit into - but even there sometimes there are opportunities that depend wholly on what kind of person is available.
and so for some of these roles, the pay is basically "what do you need to be paid to take this job and put in real effort". It actually is very personal, not a one-size fits all kind of thing. Capable people who can do much more than the basic job description can get a higher title and better pay. But not too much better pay, or then they won't be motivated to strive for improvement.
That really is the meaning of "compensation commensurate with experience". It's a polite way of saying "we will pay whatever it takes to get the best person available for this role". There may not be a range, or they might adjust the range and job title if someone shows unexpected potential but otherwise exceeds the range.
even within junior level architecture jobs, there is probably a 2x-3x difference in value to the firm between designers right out of college and those with a year or two of office skills. but the variation is very individual, and can't be easily judged ahead of time. unlike big-law associates, junior architects aren't usually there just to accumulate billable hours on routine work. they really need to get stuff done and figure out how to be useful.
again, this type of "evaluation" is all about what the employee can give the company, and how much the company can take from the employee. normal, sane businesses post salaries without any harm to themselves. and if they're truly uncertain, a range is fine.
What are you going on about or your complaint exactly?
You wrote:
"Be like every other profession out there, FOR REAL. You're not that special or mysterious, no one cares. Grow up, we need to make a living. Y'alls shoestring budgets can either hire or they can't. Then do it yourself."
What are these other professions you are referring to. I know for a fact that you didn't check every profession or occupation out there. What are you defining as a profession?
If it's a licensed profession, then your search list is more narrow but then there are those professions that are not regulated by any sort of government licensing system. This list is far too broad and big for any human being to do on their own even if they were to live to be 1000 years old.
Don't make such likes like "Be like every other profession out their, FOR REAL".
You start the thread with a title of: "Stop being so mysterious about posting compensation"
What's so mysterious? Salary positions are generally negotiated unless the pay is explicitly stated. If an employer doesn't explicitly state the salary, it's negotiated based on similar positions with similar duties which will usually be a range. That's actually the way it works in most occupations. I simplified it and leaving out some of the drama but it's basically how it is.
As of January 1st of this year it's Colorado State Law that an employer must disclose pay ranges/rates and benefits in job listings. So far what I've seen they just mirror the AIA Compensation Survey results for the listed title, but it's a step in the right direction.
Yeah but the mountain towns pay too little for the cost of living. The Denver area is still expensive to live but nothing like the mountain towns. I did a quick salary comparison. To live around Denver I'd need to make 40% more, in the Breck area its 65% more to equal to what I make here. Now Grand Junction on the other hand . . .
Slamming - The mountain town firms may pay for your Epic Pass but they won't pay the $180K a year it takes to live around those areas. That's assuming you own a house, car, and don't have roommates. ;)
I once interviewed and firm Breck. Great firm, great people. They could only afford to pay me $8k more than I make here in GJ but they did provide an Epic Pass. Too bad I don't downhill ski.
Crazy isn't it. I'm doing some employee housing in Crested Butte. All their 'affordable housing' was in Gunnison. However all the wealthy people being priced out Vail, Aspen, ect have bought up all the housing there. As such Crusty Butt is having to deal with the real possibility that their town will die because middle class people can't afford to live / work around there.
good for you and for the project, where I live, they hired some firm out of chicago, used glulams on the exterior without paint, just clear seal. don't do that. we're in a lawsuit against the city.
Stop being so mysterious about posting compensation
Be like every other profession out there, FOR REAL. You're not that special or mysterious, no one cares. Grow up, we need to make a living. Y'alls shoestring budgets can either hire or they can't. Then do it yourself.
Sincerely,
The entire profession.
Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
.
da fuk you goin on about? This ain't no wendy's.
Wait I was here to fix the frosty machine...
we all know frosties come from cans, dawg.
THEY WERE PUT THERE BY A MAN...
In a factory doooooowwwwwwwntown.
If I had my little way, I'd eat peaches every day......
oh wait....beer I mean
My mom told me I was special
You are very special.
I'm hiring. $20 to $50 per hour, depending on skills and personality. Does that help?
Sorry charlie, but every other profession isn't so mysterious about what they pay as a starting point. If they like you they will pay more. Clearly you don't get the point woody
The Architecture Salary Poll
What occupation that requires a professional degree is more transparent? There's almost always an imbalance of power that creates an imbalance when negotiating.
"Big Law" is very transparent. This is basically the top tier of law firms, so the top 1% of all lawyers... but they're very lockstep and whatever they pay associates trickles down to the standard firms in mid-market cities. The top ten offices give press releases on their starting salaries and anytime one of the top firms raises salaries, the others all match. It has been an arms race for decades and has actively driven up big law salaries wildly. Even if you look at the starting associate pay 20 years ago vs the starting associate pay today, the growth rate is so much higher than the entry-level architecture job in top-tier markets.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/...
One really big difference between the professions (other than the obvious) is that:
True, I suppose Big Law & Corporate Finance like JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, etc. release yearly reports. Outside of the 1% that's pretty non existent though. It trickles down but it's not explicitly said in a press release.
James - Unfortunately architecture students are also not taught to have a whole lot of value when they first enter the profession. How buildings actually go together is pushed to the side as to not quell "design". At least from what I've seen.
Drew my salary range is actually serious. I'm in a rural area with a specialty niche that is in high demand, and I can't find anyone to help me. I am paying one consultant $60/hr and would pay him at least $40/hr if he'd work for me as an employee, but he won't. I'd pay a drafter who wanted to learn my system and who has some skills but is still new $20/hr. I'd pay someone in between an in-between salary. There is nobody here to hire so it doesn't matter.
Brb, moving to Maine
Maine is pretty damn nice. I enjoyed my time there.
Josh I might have mentioned that my biggest project at the moment is on the Gouldsboro/Winterharbor line, directly on Frenchman Bay, looking across at Bar Harbor--if there wasn't another island in the way. I'm looking forward to another site visit soon!
Frenchman Bay you say? Well... tabernak.
https://goo.gl/maps/toQAs1yR1LrgJmTT8
Nice spot WG. I'm currently helping out family build a tiny house/shack in Riverport NovaScotia... same region.
Nice! It's beautiful over there. Reminds me of what Maine was like when I was growing up. We're going to New Brunswick in a couple of weeks, though just barely across the border from Maine.
I'm sorry wood guy, but you need to adjust your expectations and comments... there's nobody in your area at the rate you want to pay... $20/hr.... hell, might as well just swing hammers for a living. What's the point? $30/hr minimum for fresh grad, and $60/hr seems like a deal for your consultant help.
to put it in perspective, if I know like anything about anything (fresh arch grad with youtube for instance) I could drive around fixing people's leaky faucets and changing light bulbs for $50/hr
there aren't hard and fast requirements, but if any government job listed will have a salary range, including for architects. it's a form of fear and withholding on the part of private businesses.
jose, just a few years ago I started a residential construction company and paid about 15% above local average. The only people I could find were a high school classmate between jobs and a 62 year old woman who was a friend of friends, tired of working for non-profits.
What I'll really do is advertise for 2-3 different experience levels and share roles, responsibilities and compensation ranges for each.
jeosef - I'm not totally clear on what your point is? Yes, many trades make more money than architects.
I make between $28 and $44/ hr depending on how much unpaid overtime I work (salary if I work 2000 hours a year works out to about $44/ hr). The GC on my project is currently paying $60/hr for framers with no experience. Considering I've framed light wood and HT structures plus done finish carpentry, I could probably start @ $80/hr on their crew. But I don't want to be a framer, I want to be an architect.
drew, I really hope it's not your real name and you're not applying to jobs, cheers mate.
crazy sauce. Must be a disgruntled employee trying to spoof a coworker/employer. No one is that dumb, right?
The OP may be coming off an interview experience where they did the whole gamut of cover letter, resume, interview(s) and then got a ridiculously low salary offer. A lot of architects out there don't really know what to pay people. Some are unaware of current pay rates and some are just being cheap.
i get the complaint... "compensation commensurate with experience" is bullshit, just be clear and list a salary range. the ambiguity only helps one side..
I think that's the point. There's little advantage in being transparent.
Eh, I think there is great advantage in being transparent in this regard. I prefer to see job postings with an experience and salary range followed up with 'compensation commensurate with experience'
It would be nice to know what the ceiling is, but from an employers perspective if someone says they will do the job for less money than the employer is willing to pay I'm not surprised when they let them.
oh i get the motivation from the employer's standpoint, but it's incredibly one-sided. it puts the prospective employee in a position of uncertainty, which weakens them when negotiating.
I know what everyone in my office makes. So does everyone else.
sounds like a healthy, not-insecure workplace chad.
We circulated an internal compensation chart a few years back. Nothing specific to each individual's income but grouped experience + responsibilities (Arch, Int Des, Tech, Intern) in $5k to $10k salary increases (and broad details of associate and partner compensation differences). It actually caused some dissention because it showed some staff where their ceiling is. Nothing secret or groundbreaking with the salary grouping and I'm sure anyone who's moderately aware of our market could have predicted them... but some were definitively turned off and moved on... some left the profession entirely.
good for them, seems like they ultimately appreciated the honesty.
I could absolutely see people leaving because they look at folks 5-10-15 years their senior & not liking what it looks like. Some people don't realize where the ceiling is until they have an example. It convinces a lot of people to go out on their own.
TED talks have really gone downhill since I was in school.
something i've found a couple times applying for jobs is that there are often undefined needs in a company, and there is no fixed salary because they don't know what it will take to do the job. they just want someone who will come in, get involved, and figure out how to improve the work / team / business in some way. this is less common in corporate offices that already have a structure and slots to fit into - but even there sometimes there are opportunities that depend wholly on what kind of person is available.
and so for some of these roles, the pay is basically "what do you need to be paid to take this job and put in real effort". It actually is very personal, not a one-size fits all kind of thing. Capable people who can do much more than the basic job description can get a higher title and better pay. But not too much better pay, or then they won't be motivated to strive for improvement.
That really is the meaning of "compensation commensurate with experience". It's a polite way of saying "we will pay whatever it takes to get the best person available for this role". There may not be a range, or they might adjust the range and job title if someone shows unexpected potential but otherwise exceeds the range.
even within junior level architecture jobs, there is probably a 2x-3x difference in value to the firm between designers right out of college and those with a year or two of office skills. but the variation is very individual, and can't be easily judged ahead of time. unlike big-law associates, junior architects aren't usually there just to accumulate billable hours on routine work. they really need to get stuff done and figure out how to be useful.
again, this type of "evaluation" is all about what the employee can give the company, and how much the company can take from the employee. normal, sane businesses post salaries without any harm to themselves. and if they're truly uncertain, a range is fine.
Drew Hutcheson,
What are you going on about or your complaint exactly?
You wrote:
"Be like every other profession out there, FOR REAL. You're not that special or mysterious, no one cares. Grow up, we need to make a living. Y'alls shoestring budgets can either hire or they can't. Then do it yourself."
What are these other professions you are referring to. I know for a fact that you didn't check every profession or occupation out there. What are you defining as a profession?
If it's a licensed profession, then your search list is more narrow but then there are those professions that are not regulated by any sort of government licensing system. This list is far too broad and big for any human being to do on their own even if they were to live to be 1000 years old.
Don't make such likes like "Be like every other profession out their, FOR REAL".
You start the thread with a title of: "Stop being so mysterious about posting compensation"
What's so mysterious? Salary positions are generally negotiated unless the pay is explicitly stated. If an employer doesn't explicitly state the salary, it's negotiated based on similar positions with similar duties which will usually be a range. That's actually the way it works in most occupations. I simplified it and leaving out some of the drama but it's basically how it is.
thread's over.
Just move to Colorado.
why dat?
As of January 1st of this year it's Colorado State Law that an employer must disclose pay ranges/rates and benefits in job listings. So far what I've seen they just mirror the AIA Compensation Survey results for the listed title, but it's a step in the right direction.
I say this like it's the end-all-be-all, and even here on the Archinect Job Boards less than half of the listings are in compliance.
Also jobs in architecture are plentiful here in CO. Assuming you want to work in the Denver area. That or Grand Junction. ;)
vail and breck are also busy, and aspen/snowmass as well. lots of firms hiring.
Yeah but the mountain towns pay too little for the cost of living. The Denver area is still expensive to live but nothing like the mountain towns. I did a quick salary comparison. To live around Denver I'd need to make 40% more, in the Breck area its 65% more to equal to what I make here. Now Grand Junction on the other hand . . .
Yeah but a firm in Denver isn't going to pay for my Epic/Ikon Pass!
Just the price of health insurance around here makes me nauseous.
Slamming - The mountain town firms may pay for your Epic Pass but they won't pay the $180K a year it takes to live around those areas. That's assuming you own a house, car, and don't have roommates. ;)
I once interviewed and firm Breck. Great firm, great people. They could only afford to pay me $8k more than I make here in GJ but they did provide an Epic Pass. Too bad I don't downhill ski.
that's so true, I own "employee housing" but If I was paying free market rent I would be dead. SFH median price here is something like 5.4 million.
Crazy isn't it. I'm doing some employee housing in Crested Butte. All their 'affordable housing' was in Gunnison. However all the wealthy people being priced out Vail, Aspen, ect have bought up all the housing there. As such Crusty Butt is having to deal with the real possibility that their town will die because middle class people can't afford to live / work around there.
good for you and for the project, where I live, they hired some firm out of chicago, used glulams on the exterior without paint, just clear seal. don't do that. we're in a lawsuit against the city.
wait a minute…i don’t get paid to post
Who’s getting paid here?!?!?
You're not getting paid?! If we posted here just for fun I don't think anyone would be doing it during the workday...
Yeah. Paul is literally putting my kid through Yale with all the dough I'm getting for my efforts here.
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