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Can the Architect add a note to a Consultant's drawing?

arnje

For example, hypothetically the structural engineer specifies a 6x6 column, but the architect wants that column to be say an 8x8 for aesthetic reasons. Obviously the architect can show it on his own drawings as 8x8. But experience shows that the builder will typically refer only to the engineer’s page for the structural frame. Can the architect add a note on the engineers sheet that says something like, "oversize this column to an 8x8"? If not, how would you handle that override other than asking the engineer to redo his set? The underlying assumption is that if a 6x6 is structurally sufficient, then so is the 8x8.

 
Aug 20, 21 4:52 pm

Would you be ok with the structural engineer just adding notes to your drawings without consent? Why risk the legal liability of altering the drawings of a registered professional without their consent? Why not just ask the consultant to oversize the column?

Aug 20, 21 5:00 pm  · 
6  · 
ivanmillya

I once worked in an office where we did all of the structural drafting for the SE because the engineers we worked with notoriously produced...how should I say it...less-than-great quality drawings

One of our interns at the time was drafting, and decided he wanted to resize the floor plates to make them thinner, so he added that note to the structural drawings we were drafting up, but didn't communicate it to the SE. So a week later we get a really flabbergasted call from our SE asking why his drawings are noted to have undersized floor joists, when he specified deeper ones. That was a fun conversation.

Aug 20, 21 5:03 pm  · 
4  · 
ivanmillya

Usually I just email my engineer and ask them to change the column. Unless you're working with a real chintzy engineer, they shouldn't have a problem making a tiny change like that...granted, I've usually worked out design changes like that long before I've asked my engineer for signed and sealed drawings.

Your other option is to wait until CA, and just get on the phone with your engineer and G.C. and talk about the change, then have everyone make a note on the drawings. That minor of a change shouldn't warrant any paperwork unless the columns have already been formed or ordered.

EDIT: I'm assuming this is residential. I'm sure the bureaucracy is much deeper when it comes to commercial work.

Aug 20, 21 5:01 pm  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

I do this kind of stuff all the time in commercial on site but paperwork always follows every change. You won’t survive long without a trail.

Aug 20, 21 10:08 pm  · 
2  · 
atelier nobody

Nope.

Aug 20, 21 5:12 pm  · 
4  · 
whistler

double nope

Aug 20, 21 5:50 pm  · 
5  · 

If it's simple enough to handle with a note, it's simple enough to ask the consultant to do it themselves.

Aug 20, 21 5:51 pm  · 
2  · 
natematt

Triple nope. 

Aug 20, 21 6:10 pm  · 
6  · 
Non Sequitur

So instead of asking the actual consultant to make the change l, you opted to ask total strangers if it’s kosher to draw on someone else’s work? Kidsthesedays  amiright ?

Aug 20, 21 6:23 pm  · 
2  · 

Not quite a kid by their post history. They indicated they graduated from Cooper in the 80s.

I'm guessing this is something they've already done (possibly many times) and got caught. Now they are asking a bunch of rando strangers so they can say other people think it's fine to their engineer.

Aug 20, 21 7:46 pm  · 
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citizen

^ I'm stealing Rando Stranger for my next alias/ porn name/ Star Wars character.

Aug 20, 21 9:15 pm  · 
2  · 
Non Sequitur

Hey, old people can be kids too. I don’t judge.

Aug 20, 21 9:23 pm  · 
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arnje

Smug little shits like you give the profession a bad name.

Aug 20, 21 9:45 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

Smug? How so? For calling your obviously dumb question dumb?

Aug 20, 21 10:04 pm  · 
1  · 
arnje

For thinking you have the profession of architecture all figured out. You’re a classic example of dunning-Kruger.

Aug 20, 21 10:14 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

Not all of it, barely even a small fraction figured out I’d say. But in that fraction, you can be assured is included consultant coordination protocol.

Aug 20, 21 10:56 pm  · 
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arnje

Well maybe one day you will run into a situation where you want to get others opinions, but you get smarmy condescending zingers instead. Then please look back on your current behavior. I see in your post history this is typical of your behavior. I hope you become a better than this.

Aug 20, 21 11:16 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

No thank you. It nice over here. Plus, I’m on vacation atm.

Aug 21, 21 8:14 am  · 
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arnje

Yes you seem quite pleased with yourself. And full of yourself. A typical arrogant git

Aug 21, 21 9:04 am  · 
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Non Sequitur

Or… you’re just upset that your simple question did not lead into deeper philosophical discussion beyond “don’t ever do it”.

Aug 21, 21 9:12 am  · 
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arnje

Actually i have no issue with the simple don’t ever do it. It’s calling a questioner a kid in a derogatory manner, accusing them of chronic error making, and bullying type language that I find offensive. A younger more sensitive person would be dissuaded from asking and participating in the forum. I’m sure you’ve chased many off. Nothing to be proud of. And yet I do see you’re capable of insight when you choose to be.

Aug 21, 21 9:35 am  · 
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arnje

everyday architect. You are correct about the years in practice, approx 40, but not about the done and caught. We are having an interesting intraoffice discussion about what are acceptable practices and I thought it would be interesting to see some outside opinions. Some of our projects are running into long delays in getting consultants revisions in a timely manner. The delays are very costly. one of our PMs wants to notate as a third party re issues that don’t change the consultants’ essential service. In the example I gave, we could note to keep the structural col at 6x6 and case out to 8”, but might prefer to oversize. 


While I find it amusing to be called out as a novice, or a hack, presumably by someone with far less experience, I’d hoped polite discussion on professional practice would be possible. I do appreciate the sincere thoughts enumerated above by others. Fir what it’s worth,  I tend to agree with the don’t do it school of thought. I also wondered what others were doing as I’m sure we are not the only ones running into long delays by consultants. 

Aug 20, 21 8:21 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

it does not take 40y of experience to know that you do not make changes to your consultants' work.

Aug 20, 21 9:26 pm  · 
2  · 
arnje

How long did it take you to become a rude, know it all, asshole? You’re a special kind of stupid aren’t you?

Aug 20, 21 9:39 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

I’m the nice kind of asshole. Sorry.

Aug 20, 21 10:02 pm  · 
1  · 
arnje

At least you recognize that you’re an asshole.

Aug 20, 21 10:15 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

I’m the nicest asshole you’ll ever meet.

Aug 20, 21 10:57 pm  · 
1  · 
arnje

Fair enough

Aug 20, 21 11:16 pm  · 
1  · 
luvu

I kinda get what your original question was about but I have to say it's poorly worded to say the least.

It's very normal that we've been pressured by the builder/GC during construction to get " get the ball rolling " and asked to update/change "our" drawings without proper coordination. This is very dangerous, I can go on for hours about this / which I wont do that. We always have a rule , if you like,  in the office  that we measure ( ordinate ) twice draw once.

Aug 21, 21 1:57 am  · 
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arnje

luvu, given the absurdly vitriolic responses, and the apparent lack of understanding of the issue, I believe you must be correct. I could try to reword it, but instead will just keep it for discussion in the local community of firms and consultants where it can continue to be addressed without the juvenile snark this forum has too much of. But I thank you for your observation.

Aug 21, 21 4:02 am  · 
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Non Sequitur

If you see vitriol here, then you need a better helmet. That’s the cost of posing bad questions.

Aug 21, 21 8:22 am  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

To add to the above, and something I come across often, is that simple changes can chain into more problems. For example, a column size change without coordination could cause problems for the footing, truss bearing points, saddle and other clips, etc. If junior staff mark up drawings and send them to site and there is a fuckup, then you’ll have the bad trifecta of a pissed off client, contractor, and consultant.

Aug 21, 21 8:26 am  · 
3  · 
arnje

Ah yes. Blame others for your bad attitude. You have a fine knack for hijacking threads with your crappy snark you mistake for cleverness.

Aug 21, 21 9:10 am  · 
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arnje

The added comment is good though.

Aug 21, 21 9:12 am  · 
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Non Sequitur

The two comments are because I’m in my phone, can’t do the paragraphs. Probably would have read differently had I chained them. Anyways, on the fly consultant review and changes is something I do constantly. It’s never as simple as changing a note.

Aug 21, 21 9:42 am  · 
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arnje

Yes I agree and you’ve made good points there. I think my example was not well chosen as it focused on a change. The note doesn’t have to be a change. It might refer the reader to the proper A set page. I actually agree no amendments to others work. But the flip side argument is one could simplify and clarify complex conditions with
a simple. note if one could.

Aug 21, 21 9:51 am  · 
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arnje

Also in part my reason for asking in here is that different jurisdictions have different practices. I was hoping some Europeans or South Americans might enumerate how they handle consultant coordinations and what is acceptable practice there.

Aug 21, 21 9:57 am  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

"But the flip side argument is one could simplify and clarify complex conditions with a simple. note if one could."

What does this mean?

Aug 21, 21 1:46 pm  · 
 · 
citizen

.

Aug 20, 21 9:14 pm  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]
  1. For example, hypothetically the structural engineer specifies a 6x6 column, but the architect wants that column to be say an 8x8 for aesthetic reasons. Call your consultant, and direct them to change.
  2. Obviously the architect can show it on his own drawings as 8x8. But experience shows that the builder will typically refer only to the engineer’s page for the structural frame. Experience also demonstrates that builders not reviewing all contract documents do one of two things; redo the work, or get fired.
  3. Can the architect add a note on the engineers sheet that says something like, "oversize this column to an 8x8"? You propose to do this how, Bluebeam? 
  4. If not, how would you handle that override other than asking the engineer to redo his set? Why would the engineer have to "redo his set"? If you hired them, and they want to work with you again, they'll make the change.
  5. The underlying assumption is that if a 6x6 is structurally sufficient, then so is the 8x8. What if your assumption was proven incorrect, you'd be one the hook for a number of things, if the work failed. I suspect that your modification of a set drawings, of a discipline, with potential statutory, and ethical consequences would place your status as a 40 year licensed professional in jeopardy, would it not?
Aug 21, 21 1:57 pm  · 
3  · 
arnje

Thank you for your response

Aug 21, 21 3:15 pm  · 
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I’m waiting for Rick to come in with a rambling response. 

Aug 21, 21 9:58 pm  · 
6  · 
rcz1001

nope.

Aug 23, 21 9:06 pm  · 
5  · 
rcz1001

It's good to see ya, Josh. Been busy, myself.

Aug 24, 21 1:12 am  · 
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midlander

this is a firm NO, NEVER. From management practice and legal liability there are plenty problems - but the most serious is simply safety.

Just to follow your example - imagine you've instructed the contractor to increase all column sizes and they do that. In a simple building I suppose it's fine (but that's only a guess). But we aren't really qualified to judge that - we're just assuming it's fine because in your opinion it's a small adjustment. It's very easy to imagine situations on larger buildings where a small 'adjustment' would cascade into changing fundamental design conditions.

What if increasing column sizes increases the dead load weight on a floor below, overloading columns there? What if it causes an uneven weight distribution at the foundation and causes differential settlement? What if the stiffer structure changes the natural frequency of the building to match the expected frequency of a seismic event - causing it to collapse suddenly in a minor earthquake?

40 years ago a bridge collapsed at a Kansas City hotel, killing 100+ people. The basic cause was a minor design change on a bolt connection made by a steel sub which wasn't reviewed by the engineer. It was a very small change on a small component which the steel fabricator thought was adequately covered by a quick phone call with one of the engineers, and they didn't follow up with a submittal for review because it would slow things down. Small changes sometimes matter. It's not the architect (or contractor's) place to decide which structural changes are important enough to matter.

Aug 21, 21 11:43 pm  · 
4  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

I mean, could you even begin to imagine the legal chaos you put the engineering firm in by altering their documents? The precedent, and damage to the profession wound be hard to recover.

Aug 21, 21 11:47 pm  · 
2  · 
midlander

i was thinking what happens if the contractor thought the architect's note meant 'all columns should be 6x6' and now all the 12x12 columns get downsized too... do you go back and blame the contractor for that now (smh)

Aug 21, 21 11:50 pm  · 
1  · 
arnje

The question has now been definitively answered. Thank you all who made serious responses.

Aug 21, 21 11:55 pm  · 
2  · 
Non Sequitur

turns out I have a few example of possible shitstorms. One that I can recall from last year… I needed to increase the thickness of concrete on deck to meet a particular fire rating for the floor. I had previously asked the structural eng but that request never got put into the construction docs. Anyways, I call them and ask if they are cool with an extra 38mm. I knew the steel and spans would be fine since we had other similar projects with them however, I had no considered the impact on their footings, bracing, and rebar… which would require redesign.  Now, they should have been designed to suit the thicker concrete floor in the first place, but it was missed and I don’t need to throw them to the wolves and risk future projects, so I solved the issue without asking them to redo work. Probably came out cheaper for the client too but it’s not like they would have cared. This is a project to house their sports car collection and helicopter. 

Aug 22, 21 9:26 am  · 
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Non Sequitur

I have another example that did quite some damage but it was a clueless client who made the change. End user is a gov department but the executive overseeing the new build decided that the blast force for their mail room was too low. How they knew this? No idea because they clearly did not know that blast force is exponential when they demanded we increase resistance by x5. The half-million extra in rebar just for a 20’x20’ room was only the tip. 

Aug 22, 21 9:30 am  · 
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I can only imagine what that rebar cage looked like

Aug 22, 21 6:02 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

Bottom of walls were finished on a 45d (like a cant) because of the bending of bars.

Aug 22, 21 6:19 pm  · 
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arnje

If they kept adding enough rebar eventually they wouldn’t need any concrete.

Aug 22, 21 7:03 pm  · 
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