Hello. I'm writing this late at night to solicit some insight from you all since its been bugging me and make me lose sleep for a weeks now.
I've got a job offer of an 85k salary from another firm that does design-build (800+employee) and I'm contemplating if I should leave my current job for this new offer.
A little background about myself. I'm 32 y/o (single) and has been licensed for 2 years now, and I've been on my current job (corporate design company) which is my first job; doing commercial/retail (400 employee) for around 9 years now where I've moved up quickly from being an intern-> junior architect -> and now project manager which is a position I hold for 3 years now. I'm currently making around 74k a year (including bonuses)
I don't complain on my tasks and I work 46 hrs/wk consistently, and love working with our team (client, construction manager/client rep, design team, construction team) which I know is rare to find. they are all nice and have the same mindset of 'we'll do whatever it needs to, to get this project done for our client'. my current company treats me well, with typically 3k-7k yearly bonuses, and the people there are nice.
Our Principal (owner) viewed me as the 'backbone' of this client projects since I've been training new members up to speed, and I'm the only one on the company who knows the ins and outs and the workflow of the project.
I don't really want to leave my current job, and I feel like I'm breaking their hearts specially my boss (who gave me the opportunity) to leave them hanging like that specially with the mountain of projects we have now and the current team not fully up to speed with the program. The team right now is really depending only to me on my guidance to get the project done. I'm now in this conundrum if i were to leave or to stay.
I know the money is good and I will get me more construction exposure with the new job, however, I'm concern if the people as well as the company will be as nice as my current one - which is equally important to me (mental health); or If I'll be up to the task of new responsibilities, and that they may fire me after a few months since I'm not what they expecting.
For you all that have been on this fork in the road, what was going on your mind back then and how did you go about this. I would really like to hear your thoughts, thanks in advance.
you dont owe your team or your boss anything, you should look out for your career. don't seem so grateful - 74k a year for all the experience you have and how indispensable you are is not great. if it's just about the money then you could consider asking for more money and using the other offer as leverage. however, if the other offer will start you on a career path that you want to ultimately walk i encourage you to make a change. you shouldn't worry about failing at the new job if you represented your skills and experience accurately, it seems like you are a hard worker.
thank you for sharing your insight. I understand this mentality, but I do believe that if the time comes that they need to fire me its because the company is about to go under. the current company is around 300-400 team but only around 60-80 are in the architecture department.
If you take the new job your after tax income will not increase by $11,000 a year. No where near it. If you are happy in your work stay with it - look at all the architects on here that are perfectly miserable in their jobs and lives. More than a few threads here on mental health issues arising from work. It also seems that you have a good backload of work to sustain the company should a recession hit.
I don't know why you can't just tell your current job you were headhunted (seems like you were) and offered a sizeable pay increase and if they are able to bump your current pay to keep you on board.
They said they get yearly bonus and I'm guessing they're getting raises. The firm may think they're keeping up with the typical going rate. Bringing attention to what another firm is willing to pay may be an honest eye opening experience for the current firm. Again, it doesn't hurt to bring it up. Worst case scenario? You take the other job.
It can hurt to bring it up. If the current firm leadership thinks you're looking elsewhere it can damage the relationship (even if you were head hunted, you entertained the thought far enough to get an offer ... that's a strike in their eyes). The mentorship I've received has basically indicated that if you're going to use an offer to get a raise at your current place, you're already on the outs with that firm. You're going to be marked as "not a team player" and probably on the chopping block if they need to let people go. Most of the time you don't last for more than a year or two before you're let go, or you decide to leave anyway. It can work to get a raise, but it's a temporary thing and you should probably be planning your escape anyway.
Obviously, this is general and not specific advice. YMMV
I got contacted due to one of my team members leaving for another company (not the same as her husbands) and she recommends me to her husband's company. with regards to bringing up offers, as far as my experience goes seeing other team members, it depends on how it was brought up and if there's any event that leads to it, most of my team they got contacted with their previous employer, so its a non-issue to the company and they matched it. Also, even if the company matched it up most of the times the employee leaves anyways after a year or two.
Our Principal (owner) viewed me as the 'backbone' of this client projects
I feel like I'm breaking their hearts specially my boss (who gave me the opportunity)
The team right now is really depending only to me on my guidance to get the project done.
all read flags for me from both the employer and employee.
go for the money. and to be blunt: you need to stop believing the lie that your company loves you. push comes to shove, they will do what's best for them, which means get rid of you the second they have to. in other words, you are replaceable; this is not an insult, because we all are. but i hope eventually you are able to see that the very reason that you feel so attached to this office is the very reason they are able to pay you that low of a salary. it's one thing to like your job and feel the pains of leaving for those reasons, but it's entirely another to feel obligated to the company and that you owe it something other than good work.
likewise, you should feel completely free to do the same- jump at an opportunity to make a salary that aligns much more with your experience and competency. and, i think working at a different office will give you a healthy perspective on these sorts of questions.
the OP seems like a people person and team player, which is why they are such a good fit at the corporate office. but they need to wake up and realize working so hard for less than mediocre pay is going to be totally unsustainable and not at all worth it if they ever have dependents. i don't care where the region is, that pay is meh for a 400 person corporate firm to a licensed p
roject manager with 9 years of exp.
I guess geography is a question. I'm a little older than you but the difference between 85k for a 'junior' PM and 120k for a 'senior' PM and all the positioning in between really should only come down to 3-5 more years experience.
TL:DR take the $85k, but don't get comfy, after your first major completion at the new job, angle for more complicated/larger projects, prove profitability, and shoot for $100k shortly.
Thank you for your insight. I'm located in Jacksonville, FL. both firms are multi-disciplinary, the one I'm at right now is more on design (Arch,Str,MEP,Civil/Landscape,ProjMngment are in house) and the other company is a design-build (Arch,Str,GeneralContractor,Fabricator and the other consultants are outside consultants)
Once in a while is ok but consistently is a grind and I a
counter productive.
Aug 6, 21 12:46 pm ·
·
,,,,
*I agree*
Aug 6, 21 12:47 pm ·
·
amenapi
I work around 9 to 9.25hrs a day, sometimes I'll work 10 hrs on one day and 8 hrs on another day. I'm now limited to M-F. Its usually non-stop, I'm only available for production work / QC/reviewing stuff on Monday and Thursday, most of the other days are all meetings with some 1-2 hour window for QC.
Aug 7, 21 12:00 am ·
·
rcz1001
I would work between 6-10 hours a day over 6 to 7 days. Sunday, I might be working less than 6 hours but just to make sure I'm not getting behind schedule. However, those weekdays maybe 5 to 10 hours spread over from 7am to 8pm maybe 9pm at the latest. The weekend hours are a variable and may require as little as a couple of hours or maybe a full day on Saturday and maybe a half-day on Sunday unless I'm particularly swamped by an extraordinary amount of hours of work.
yes, definitely I'm located in Jacksonville, FL, and both companies are multi disciplined firm my current one is design focus which has inhouse arch,MEP,Structural,Civil,permitting/Project Management.
While the other firm is Arch/STR/constructor/manufacturer and the other consultants are contracted outside.
As a general rule it’s desirable to avoid burning bridges. At a minimum I would suggest that you have a calm and thoughtful conversation with your current boss. Explain the situation that has occurred and ask sincerely for his advice. Bosses know that their good people always are subject to recruitment by other firms so this won’t be a surprise, nor will it make you appear unhappy where you are. Be honest about your mixed feelings and see where the conversation goes.
This happens all the time. Don’t let the awkwardness prevent you from discussing this with your boss. It may work out or it may not. But, at a minimum, it will give your boss a chance to retain your services with an appropriate counter offer. That may satisfy you or it may not … but you at least made the effort to work something out … if you just quit he’s much more likely to be resentful.
Great advice. People go and come all the time, but it is always good to not burn bridges (especially that they seem to be good employers). Having a calm discussion would help and show your boss that you are actually trying.
On the other hand, be totally prepared to hear "ok cool, good luck with your new gig" - and do not get butt hurt because of this. They need to run a business as well...
About 18 years ago or so (I'm old..), I was in a similar sort of predicament. I was licensed 1.5 years into the profession (accumulated enough hours through internships) and by 4 years in my first firm led complicated projects through all phases as project manager. I was earning 74k$/yr in California - really well-valued by all peers, owners partners and clients. I was working regularly 50 hrs a week or more making my senior PM's and principal look like a million dollars on projects. Slowly but surely came the painful realization that although my contributions to the projects & its success were obviously very appreciated - I was literally paying for bonuses and pay-rises for folk at a more senior level with little to nothing to show for myself (cursory 5k bonuses which were in infact less than my overtime if I wasn't salaried). BUT, I had the same dilemma as I was treated very well - the go-to person for many things. At that point, I got an offer which was much higher (about 90K$ base pay) from a less design oriented firm which was just asking me to do CA work. They really appreciated my drawings sets and overall approach to working with superintendents and facility managers. I took the gig and respectfully moved on without burning bridges. After a few years of doing that, I took up an offer from a mid-sized corporate firm in a more business development oriented role for around 130k$ a year. I did that for about 5 years. After about 14 years, I decided to open up my own shop and one of the earliest projects I did was from my first employer who was too busy to take up that project and went from there. At the end of the day, as much as personal relationships mean a ton, it's a business - you got to look out for yourself and your family. At the same time, it's always good to be thoughtful in moving on even if there is resentment about your previous job. No one will be-grudge you for doing what's best for yourself. That only means you value your hard work, professionalism and skill and all the time you have dedicated into being good.
My advice would be to do your homework on the potential opportunity: interview them for the corporate culture, check on turnover rates and see if people in equivalent positions are close to your skillset and are happy. Also have a frank conversation with your boss about compensation, workload and be positive about the good experience you have had with them. Maybe they match/counteroffer, even if they don't leave the door open for opportunity to return in the future. Sometimes its best to get some differing experiences, and at times people do return to offices with added value from other places (and in different roles).
Contemplating of Leaving a very good first job..
Hello. I'm writing this late at night to solicit some insight from you all since its been bugging me and make me lose sleep for a weeks now.
I've got a job offer of an 85k salary from another firm that does design-build (800+employee) and I'm contemplating if I should leave my current job for this new offer.
A little background about myself. I'm 32 y/o (single) and has been licensed for 2 years now, and I've been on my current job (corporate design company) which is my first job; doing commercial/retail (400 employee) for around 9 years now where I've moved up quickly from being an intern-> junior architect -> and now project manager which is a position I hold for 3 years now. I'm currently making around 74k a year (including bonuses)
I don't complain on my tasks and I work 46 hrs/wk consistently, and love working with our team (client, construction manager/client rep, design team, construction team) which I know is rare to find. they are all nice and have the same mindset of 'we'll do whatever it needs to, to get this project done for our client'. my current company treats me well, with typically 3k-7k yearly bonuses, and the people there are nice.
Our Principal (owner) viewed me as the 'backbone' of this client projects since I've been training new members up to speed, and I'm the only one on the company who knows the ins and outs and the workflow of the project.
I don't really want to leave my current job, and I feel like I'm breaking their hearts specially my boss (who gave me the opportunity) to leave them hanging like that specially with the mountain of projects we have now and the current team not fully up to speed with the program. The team right now is really depending only to me on my guidance to get the project done. I'm now in this conundrum if i were to leave or to stay.
I know the money is good and I will get me more construction exposure with the new job, however, I'm concern if the people as well as the company will be as nice as my current one - which is equally important to me (mental health); or If I'll be up to the task of new responsibilities, and that they may fire me after a few months since I'm not what they expecting.
For you all that have been on this fork in the road, what was going on your mind back then and how did you go about this. I would really like to hear your thoughts, thanks in advance.
you dont owe your team or your boss anything, you should look out for your career. don't seem so grateful - 74k a year for all the experience you have and how indispensable you are is not great. if it's just about the money then you could consider asking for more money and using the other offer as leverage. however, if the other offer will start you on a career path that you want to ultimately walk i encourage you to make a change. you shouldn't worry about failing at the new job if you represented your skills and experience accurately, it seems like you are a hard worker.
thank you for sharing your insight. I understand this mentality, but I do believe that if the time comes that they need to fire me its because the company is about to go under. the current company is around 300-400 team but only around 60-80 are in the architecture department.
If you take the new job your after tax income will not increase by $11,000 a year. No where near it. If you are happy in your work stay with it - look at all the architects on here that are perfectly miserable in their jobs and lives. More than a few threads here on mental health issues arising from work. It also seems that you have a good backload of work to sustain the company should a recession hit.
I don't know why you can't just tell your current job you were headhunted (seems like you were) and offered a sizeable pay increase and if they are able to bump your current pay to keep you on board.
This never works.
Worked for me... in fact I begin to think the only way to get a real raise at my office is to walk into the boss's door with a competitor's offer
If that's the only way you can get a raise then you're either working at a bad firm or you're not that valuable to your firm.
They said they get yearly bonus and I'm guessing they're getting raises. The firm may think they're keeping up with the typical going rate. Bringing attention to what another firm is willing to pay may be an honest eye opening experience for the current firm. Again, it doesn't hurt to bring it up. Worst case scenario? You take the other job.
It can hurt to bring it up. If the current firm leadership thinks you're looking elsewhere it can damage the relationship (even if you were head hunted, you entertained the thought far enough to get an offer ... that's a strike in their eyes). The mentorship I've received has basically indicated that if you're going to use an offer to get a raise at your current place, you're already on the outs with that firm. You're going to be marked as "not a team player" and probably on the chopping block if they need to let people go. Most of the time you don't last for more than a year or two before you're let go, or you decide to leave anyway. It can work to get a raise, but it's a temporary thing and you should probably be planning your escape anyway.
Obviously, this is general and not specific advice. YMMV
I got contacted due to one of my team members leaving for another company (not the same as her husbands) and she recommends me to her husband's company. with regards to bringing up offers, as far as my experience goes seeing other team members, it depends on how it was brought up and if there's any event that leads to it, most of my team they got contacted with their previous employer, so its a non-issue to the company and they matched it. Also, even if the company matched it up most of the times the employee leaves anyways after a year or two.
The only way to increase salary, is to move from firm to firm. If you are looking to retire at one firm, then stay where you are.
Our Principal (owner) viewed me as the 'backbone' of this client projects
I feel like I'm breaking their hearts specially my boss (who gave me the opportunity)
The team right now is really depending only to me on my guidance to get the project done.
all read flags for me from both the employer and employee.
go for the money. and to be blunt: you need to stop believing the lie that your company loves you. push comes to shove, they will do what's best for them, which means get rid of you the second they have to. in other words, you are replaceable; this is not an insult, because we all are. but i hope eventually you are able to see that the very reason that you feel so attached to this office is the very reason they are able to pay you that low of a salary. it's one thing to like your job and feel the pains of leaving for those reasons, but it's entirely another to feel obligated to the company and that you owe it something other than good work.
likewise, you should feel completely free to do the same- jump at an opportunity to make a salary that aligns much more with your experience and competency. and, i think working at a different office will give you a healthy perspective on these sorts of questions.
the OP seems like a people person and team player, which is why they are such a good fit at the corporate office. but they need to wake up and realize working so hard for less than mediocre pay is going to be totally unsustainable and not at all worth it if they ever have dependents. i don't care where the region is, that pay is meh for a 400 person corporate firm to a licensed p roject manager with 9 years of exp.
I guess geography is a question. I'm a little older than you but the difference between 85k for a 'junior' PM and 120k for a 'senior' PM and all the positioning in between really should only come down to 3-5 more years experience.
TL:DR take the $85k, but don't get comfy, after your first major completion at the new job, angle for more complicated/larger projects, prove profitability, and shoot for $100k shortly.
Thank you for your insight. I'm located in Jacksonville, FL. both firms are multi-disciplinary, the one I'm at right now is more on design (Arch,Str,MEP,Civil/Landscape,ProjMngment are in house) and the other company is a design-build (Arch,Str,GeneralContractor,Fabricator and the other consultants are outside consultants)
Check my math but I figure you are working about 6 days a week with about 15000 unpaid overtime.
Pretty close. It would be around $16,650 if you were paid 1.5x for the overtime.
3-7 in bonuses. Imo It is the 6 days that is the kicker.
Or five nine our days . . . .which still sucks.
We do nine hour days here, 7 am to 5pm. M-Th - nine hours, Fri - four hours. It's really nice!
I'm a strong believer that anything over 40 hours a week isn't actually productive.
Once in a while is ok but consistently is a grind and I a
counter productive.
*I agree*
I work around 9 to 9.25hrs a day, sometimes I'll work 10 hrs on one day and 8 hrs on another day. I'm now limited to M-F. Its usually non-stop, I'm only available for production work / QC/reviewing stuff on Monday and Thursday, most of the other days are all meetings with some 1-2 hour window for QC.
I would work between 6-10 hours a day over 6 to 7 days. Sunday, I might be working less than 6 hours but just to make sure I'm not getting behind schedule. However, those weekdays maybe 5 to 10 hours spread over from 7am to 8pm maybe 9pm at the latest. The weekend hours are a variable and may require as little as a couple of hours or maybe a full day on Saturday and maybe a half-day on Sunday unless I'm particularly swamped by an extraordinary amount of hours of work.
OP - May I ask for your approximate location? It would be a great help with determining if your pay is acceptable.
yes, definitely I'm located in Jacksonville, FL, and both companies are multi disciplined firm my current one is design focus which has inhouse arch,MEP,Structural,Civil,permitting/Project Management.
While the other firm is Arch/STR/constructor/manufacturer and the other consultants are contracted outside.
As a general rule it’s desirable to avoid burning bridges. At a minimum I would suggest that you have a calm and thoughtful conversation with your current boss. Explain the situation that has occurred and ask sincerely for his advice.
Bosses know that their good people always are subject to recruitment by other firms so this won’t be a surprise, nor will it make you appear unhappy where you are. Be honest about your mixed feelings and see where the conversation goes.
This happens all the time. Don’t let the awkwardness prevent you from discussing this with your boss. It may work out or it may not. But, at a minimum, it will give your boss a chance to retain your services with an appropriate counter offer. That may satisfy you or it may not … but you at least made the effort to work something out … if you just quit he’s much more likely to be resentful.
Good luck.
Solid advice. Do this.
Great advice. People go and come all the time, but it is always good to not burn bridges (especially that they seem to be good employers). Having a calm discussion would help and show your boss that you are actually trying.
On the other hand, be totally prepared to hear "ok cool, good luck with your new gig" - and do not get butt hurt because of this. They need to run a business as well...
Good luck!
Two cents:
About 18 years ago or so (I'm old..), I was in a similar sort of predicament. I was licensed 1.5 years into the profession (accumulated enough hours through internships) and by 4 years in my first firm led complicated projects through all phases as project manager. I was earning 74k$/yr in California - really well-valued by all peers, owners partners and clients. I was working regularly 50 hrs a week or more making my senior PM's and principal look like a million dollars on projects. Slowly but surely came the painful realization that although my contributions to the projects & its success were obviously very appreciated - I was literally paying for bonuses and pay-rises for folk at a more senior level with little to nothing to show for myself (cursory 5k bonuses which were in infact less than my overtime if I wasn't salaried). BUT, I had the same dilemma as I was treated very well - the go-to person for many things. At that point, I got an offer which was much higher (about 90K$ base pay) from a less design oriented firm which was just asking me to do CA work. They really appreciated my drawings sets and overall approach to working with superintendents and facility managers. I took the gig and respectfully moved on without burning bridges. After a few years of doing that, I took up an offer from a mid-sized corporate firm in a more business development oriented role for around 130k$ a year. I did that for about 5 years. After about 14 years, I decided to open up my own shop and one of the earliest projects I did was from my first employer who was too busy to take up that project and went from there. At the end of the day, as much as personal relationships mean a ton, it's a business - you got to look out for yourself and your family. At the same time, it's always good to be thoughtful in moving on even if there is resentment about your previous job. No one will be-grudge you for doing what's best for yourself. That only means you value your hard work, professionalism and skill and all the time you have dedicated into being good.
My advice would be to do your homework on the potential opportunity: interview them for the corporate culture, check on turnover rates and see if people in equivalent positions are close to your skillset and are happy. Also have a frank conversation with your boss about compensation, workload and be positive about the good experience you have had with them. Maybe they match/counteroffer, even if they don't leave the door open for opportunity to return in the future. Sometimes its best to get some differing experiences, and at times people do return to offices with added value from other places (and in different roles).
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