I'm so freaked out about this. Let me be clear that I know NOTHING about what might have happened. But my obsessive desire to *fix problems* means I want to know the cause. So this is TOTAL speculation.
My first thought was collapsed foundation due to sea level rise? Like, do we think that foundations along the coast *everywhere* are going to be trying to exist under different conditions than they were engineered for in upcoming years?
Then someone on Twitter mentioned a sinkhole: is it possible that a sudden sinkhole, even a smallish one, under a footing could bring down an entire building? Remember that sinkholes can be either natural or man-made: if a buried pipe has a slow leak it can eat away at the surrounding bearing soil over decades then suddenly collapse. I'm terrified of sinkholes.
Yes to both depending on foundation type. I think Miami is mostly on limestone bedrock? If you lost a few friction piles you might be ok, maybe but if a whole caisson or corner of a larger foundation system lost bearing, I could totally see this happening.
im going to go with massive leak (like a main burst) and sinkhole - i hope they can figure it out, its very frightening.
Jun 25, 21 3:55 am ·
·
rcz1001
I am hesitant to say it is caused by sea-level rising. I won't rule it out, but it would be a little lower on probability. I would agree that it may be a result of foundation failure. I do believe it could be resulting in 'groundwater' conditions. If the soil has too much moisture, it's a problem that would compromise the piles. Sea-level rising in the past 40 years shouldn't have resulted in failure because the foundation should have been substantive enough to have supported the structure even if the moisture levels were increased because this is in hurricane territory where storm surges and flooding would have occurred and liquefy the soil because those conditions were conditions the building would have faced from day 1 when the building was built. That is why foundations would be deep so even if the conditions of soil at the upper part of the piles was liquefied, at least 3/4 of the pile length would be in soil where moisture is relatively stable and at least 5/8th of the pile would be in soil that would have sufficient friction that it wouldn't have mattered what sea-level rise over the next 1,000 years even with 2 times the rate of what the estimates were back then because 40 or so years ago, we already knew of sea-level rise. In essence, the pile foundation should be able to support a building twice that of what is designed in soil conditions of half the friction. In that environment, pile foundations should be able to support the building even if half the soil was washed away and it is on stilts. Sink hole conditions does have merit especially if there is some sort of undercutting below the surface level. Is the ocean currents undercutting the beach but somehow the beach is still present and able to support people walking on it? That would be very concerning and would require buildings designed there to be on a floating foundation system and limit building height to 1 story for the first 1/4 to 1/2 mile from the coastline at mean sea level. Honestly, high rise structures should not be built on beach sand or in that type of soil condition within coastal inundation zones including that of tsunamis if one were to occur out in the Atlantic ocean area.
Jun 26, 21 6:29 pm ·
·
rcz1001
Some projects I work on are for clients in SW Washington coast is mostly on a penninsula ( Long Beach Penninsula ) and the soil conditions are somewhat similar being that its mostly sandy silt and literally is a nightmare for tsunami concerns and related concerns of liquefaction. Some other related concerns, although the exact conditions for natural sink hole conditions are rare... it potentially possible for similar or related problems that can undermine the foundations of buildings. I would not even consider designing houses 12 story tall or anything like that in that kind of conditions especially that close to the beach. Heck, even a 1/4 mile in from the beach. I may consider one-story dwellings that are on stilts with a stair case to get you to the ground but nothing remotely that tall on such precarious soil. When 80% of the penninsula in SW Washington is basically a tsunami inundation zone on the highest peak runup height projected and about 85-95% of the penninsula area north of Oceanview, WA is a liquefaction area. So from a tsunami hazard perspective, it's a nightmare. Even in hurricane (extratropical cyclones), the potential for storm surges and flooding is real and the hazards associated with that which as a designer, I would have to address as a professional and can be among the most difficult projects because clients underestimates the effort needed to make buildings that will withstand the strongest earthquakes, category 5 hurricane level winds, storm surge flooding conditions, AND tsunamis and the occassional snow seasons and not to mention one of the most wettest climates (rain) in NORTH AMERICA. Then you also have to make sure the structure and means for the most effective evacuation possible but you can't alone address the lack of evacuation routes to high ground. If you're project is up near the north end of the pennisula like Oysterville, you have to drive all the way down the pennisula and head up toward Cape Disappointment State Park because that's about the closest high ground area by road otherwise to get to high ground on the east side of Willapa Bay, you have to drive all the way around along the 101 roads up to highway 4 and then take a right to go to Naselle and go up to the higher hillside area or take the 101 road path to Astoria Megler Bridge (hoping the bridge is still standing after the earthquake itself, and make it to Astoria (hopefully the roads are passable and not F.B.R. getting to some hillside location an away from the riverfront enough that you're not at risk from river seiche. Yeah, it's an evacuation nightmare. In regards to the partially collapsed building in Miami, I am confident that the failure is the result of foundation failure in that part of the building but I can't be certain what caused the foundation failure in particular. There is a number of possibilities but I suspect the soil geology under the building was compromised but how.... don't know. Investigators will have their reports, I am going to assume.
The side that collapsed is a mirror of the other side with a few apparently unbraced columns holding up 10 stories. The open area is used for parking. Without specualting as to cause, this looks like an obvious weak point.
Here is a 'before' photo from Google Earth taken at roughly the same point as the last photo above from citizen which is right above the beach. The large mound of debris in the earlier photo is the bulk of the collapsed part of the building.
Jun 24, 21 10:37 am ·
·
citizen
Then it appears that about 2/3 of the structure collapsed. The massive heap reminds me of the World Trade Center after 9/11. The loss of life will be staggering.
I check-in here for slightly more informed technical speculation on disasters/collapse scenarios. Still mostly a lot of arm-chair sleuthing but usually a good compliation of publically available info. The Hard Rock Hotel collapse was the last big discussion on a building.
A link to the original 1979 permit(?) drawings has been posted. Hive mind is looking at lateral systems and any transfer beams near grade in the structural design. All conventional reinforcement - no PT.
You know, when I'm feeling shitty about the world I like to look at this video again. This is the collapse of the pedestrian bridge, also in Miami, filmed by dashcam. What I love about it is the car drives, then slows, then everything crashes and there's a very brief moment of basically shocked silence, then *immediately* everyone's car doors open and people run to help. Like, people mostly ARE good and want to be of service when they can, especailly in a tragedy.
A Florida high rise that collapsed early Thursday was determined to be unstable a year ago, according to a researcher at Florida International University.
The
building, which was constructed in 1981 on reclaimed wetlands, has been
sinking at an alarming rate since the 1990s, according to a 2020 study
conducted by Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth
and Environment at Florida International University.
When he heard the news that a condo had collapsed, he immediately knew which building it was, Wdowinski said.
“I looked at it this morning and said ‘Oh my god.’ We did detect that,” he said.
Wdowinski
said his research is not meant to suggest any certainty about what
caused the collapse of the condominium. The building was sinking at a
rate of about 2 millimeters a year in the 1990s, and the sinking could
have slowed or accelerated in the time since.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned new Renzo Piano's building that was just completed next door to the site of collapse. Apparently 'excessive vibration' complaints were in play during construction. Good chance everyone involved on that project gets sucked into whatever lawsuits are to follow.
Speaking of the architect, could they, the structural engineer, or the GC involved with this project still be liable for the collapse, despite it being building 40 years old? I was wondering this last night. Curious just how long liability lasts once a structure has been built.
Jun 25, 21 8:13 am ·
·
midlander
most states (all maybe?) have a statute of limitations on civil liability for design work - usually 5-10 years from when a defect should have been discovered. it's hard to imagine this would be in that range. note too there is a twin building (the north tower) a block away which obviously hasn't collapsed and presumably was done by the same team, so will probably be a useful comparison to study if there is a design or construction flaw.
Everybody will be sued. The actions are already being prepared. Limits of liability rest on a variety of fators and legal interpretations such as "when a defect should have been discovered". What about an undiscovered defect?
I also don't think statute of repose applies in instances of gross negligence, which is probable for a failure of this magnitude.
Jun 25, 21 10:16 am ·
·
midlander
i don't know the law on this, but it's certainly arguable whether any problem that remains hidden for 40 years is due to gross negligence. i'm sure miles is right, and i guess we'll never find out though!
Jun 25, 21 10:31 am ·
·
archanonymous
total speculation because we're all just dumb architects, but if re-bar wasn't placed or tied correctly (or per drawings) I would say that is gross negligence and could stay hidden for an indefinite amount of time. Same with soils testing or geotech. Hard to imagine for me that a mistake was made in the actual structural engineering calcs or design, but I suppose it is possible.
yeah who knows. there's so many ways to screw up a building and most of them never will matter or will be a small factor compared to major construction / renovation mistakes. i worked at a firm that got sued for problems arising during construction on a city project which were in fact due to errors in the engineering calcs... reading all these things makes me long to be a construction lawyer - it's fun picking apart the possibilities. i wonder if that actually pays well.
Something to remember: even if the statue for liability has run out that won't prevent someone from being sued. It just means that after hiring a lawyer and going to court the case would likely be dismissed. The process for the defendant is still costly and can impact their liability insurance costs.
Some of how a suit can happen... They've known there were structural issues for a long time. Theoretically, if those issues were noted within the statute of limitation, that starts the clock again, and so forth until the problem is corrected or agreement is made. They might still be on the hook, particularly if the problems weren't addressed and 'just monitored'. btw; I'll probably have to be quiet on this one...NDS... /cough, cough/...
Bummer for us mightyaa. I was actually hoping you'd be able to chime in given your expertise.
Jun 25, 21 4:38 pm ·
·
rcz1001
I think there may be a whirlwind of lawsuits happening at some point and the client's legal counsel and insurance companies will almost certainly demand it. If anyone was injured (didn't read through the original post or news articles on it yet in-depth), there is almost certain there will be suits for injury (general liability) and possibly more. So it's going to be a hornet nest of lawyers, subpoenas, serving notice of intent to sue, etc.
A few years ago, the last time that I visited Florida when they earthquake hit the east coast, a man died in Florida when unexpectantly a sink hole developed and swallowed his house while he slept at night. This appears to be a big deal in Florida and South America.
I suspect that this problem is related to either a sink hole or undetected sub surface water that eroded the sub soils below the foundation…….sort of like that 40 story condo tower in San Francisco that has sunk 15 inches after construction.
Half of SOMA never existed before end of 19th century. It was man made - lost pirate ships parked by the piers were buried under the sand. Now we have skyscrapers on the top of that. Millennium tower foundation never even reached the bedrock. It is fantastically expensive.
Well, in the case of 60 story Millennium tower in San Francisco, they gutted the lobby to install piles - other wise this could have ended up like WTC 1 and 2.
"Morabito '[sturctural engineer] wrote [in 2018] that the “main issue” at Champlain Towers was that the pool deck and outdoor planters “laid on a flat structure” preventing water from draining. The lack of waterproofing was “a systemic issue” that traced back to a flaw “in the development of the original contract documents” 40 years ago, the report said.
The report documented how the years of standing water on the pool deck had severely damaged the concrete structural slabs below. The problem needed to be addressed quickly, Morabito wrote.
“Failure to replace waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially,” he wrote. The proper repair would be an “extremely expensive” undertaking, he
“[R]emoval of the concrete topping slab to gain access to the waterproofing membrane will take time, be disruptive and create a major disturbance to the occupants of this condominium structure,” the report said.
The parking garage under the pool deck and planter slabs also “revealed signs of distress/fatigue,” according to Morabito’s report. “Several sizable [cracks in the concrete] were noted in both the topside of the entrance drive ramp and underside of the pool/entrance drive/planter slabs, which included instances with exposed, deteriorating rebar,” according to the report.
“Though some of this damage is minor, most of the concrete deterioration needs to be repaired in a timely fashion,” the report said.
Morabito noted that previous attempts by other contractors to repair cracks in the garage “were ineffective” and didn’t fix the problem.
Now officials are discussing evacuating the sister building north of the failed structure until things get sorted out. (I didn't even realize there was a sister building)
Would be nice to hear an opinion of architects from Florida, they should know better the situation
IMHO sadly, most of Florida is made of different kinds of limestone, sandy subsoil layers, other misc types of land. Florida is the LOWEST state from sea level; also its amount of sink holes is growing yearly (cavity that is developing in limestone, which is ruining it little by little). Due to global warming ocean level is rising, water has been taking over the land more.(that it is a growing issue, because public beach area gets smaller, approaching private area land. Authorities has not provided any help to people yet, whose land and housing is disappearing in water). Tall structures, located next to each other on sand by the water, are heavy enough to affect each other w time (sinking, leaning etc). Collapsed building had a WARNING from 2018 about not being seismically compliant from the engineer. No one did anything about it.
Florida is a republican state, as well as one of the most corrupted.. Politics spend a lot of years to make people believe in non-existence of climate change, as well as ignore people who already faced it. Huge chuck of Florida will be underwater by 2100, unless people will start doing something about it now.
PS its not only Florida. Kiribati and other territories, located at sea level w sandy, coral types of soil will be gone.
Or properly repaired at any time since then, especially after that 2018 structural report.
This is why I always design some slope into terraces and green roofs, even though the Hydrotech reps say you can go completely flat. Yes, your waterproofing product is good, but what happens in 60 years when it has never been maintained....
I don't know if that will be true and even then it maybe only true but does not mean it wouldn't have collapsed anyway just maybe a little later. The pool leaking and contributing to the underlying soil to be compromised is a concern. Other factors may have resulted in the building collapsing, anyway. We need investigative report on the cause of the collapse. That's going to take some time. The first and biggest mistake is this type of development should not even be done at all in Florida let alone within 5 to 10 miles of the beach. Structures between 1 and 5 miles of the beach or the water line level of mean sea level should be no more than 1 or 2 stories tall of wood frame construction (limited use of concrete / steel to stuff like slab and piles). From 5 miles to 10 miles, 3-5 stores of wood frame and light steel frame and maybe post & beam construction.... depending on geological report. In my opinion a 1000 ft deep geological study of the entire coast line witin 10 miles of the coast must be done to find existing and developing below surface hazards. Additionally there should be geotechnical studies done for ANY development anywhere in the state for a depth as may be required for the property but at least 100 ft deep to determine any possible underlying sink hole hazard. All of Florida especially the Florida peninsula is subject of underground hazards like sink holes and other hazards of compromised soil. While that is my opinion, it is sadly based on the precarious nature of the geology that is wasn't really land properly suitable for some of the developments that had been developed in the area.
This is also messed up. I've seen officials getting paid off for smaller projects but I can't imagine what could go on with the larger scale projects. https://nypost.com/2021/06/27/...
Another Miami, Florida, condo was evacuated after it was learned the condo board was sitting on a structural engineer's report saying the building was unfit for occupancy due to structural and electrical issues. This the Crestview Towers, about 4 miles northwest of the collapsed Surfside condo. It is on a canal, not directly fronting the ocean.
Plausible collapse sequence animation with pool deck collapse as the initiating event. Zero redundancy in this structural design, not best practice by today's standards. NY Times series is digging into some of the details with fancy rebar graphics.
friendly reminder to fold your slabs at all occupied outdoor space! don't put waterproofing at grade. don't bury it between topping slabs. don't hide it in a build up to FFE that makes it impossible to inspect/repair. don't expose waterproofing to foot traffic! don't force your landscape architect to build amenities on waterproofed FFE!
structural or topping slab with slope to drain--->waterproofing membrane--->protective mat--->continuous drainage material-->pedestals/turf/decking/whatever to FFE.
And the slope; it is a roof, therefore 1/4" per foot code minimum regardless of what the manufacturer will warranty. Even if it is a garage below, this is the roof of that garage and code dictates slope. I've seen a lot of podium waterproofing failures and they are super expensive to repair; I've yet to see a failure that also doesn't have slope issues as one of those things that went wrong. Seriously, treat it like a roof and beat it into your firm's standard details.
Partial collapse of 12 story building in Miami
A 100-unit twelve story condo built in the 1980s has partially collapsed on Collins Avenue in Miami.
Pretty horrifying.
I'm so freaked out about this. Let me be clear that I know NOTHING about what might have happened. But my obsessive desire to *fix problems* means I want to know the cause. So this is TOTAL speculation.
My first thought was collapsed foundation due to sea level rise? Like, do we think that foundations along the coast *everywhere* are going to be trying to exist under different conditions than they were engineered for in upcoming years?
Then someone on Twitter mentioned a sinkhole: is it possible that a sudden sinkhole, even a smallish one, under a footing could bring down an entire building? Remember that sinkholes can be either natural or man-made: if a buried pipe has a slow leak it can eat away at the surrounding bearing soil over decades then suddenly collapse. I'm terrified of sinkholes.
Yes to both depending on foundation type. I think Miami is mostly on limestone bedrock? If you lost a few friction piles you might be ok, maybe but if a whole caisson or corner of a larger foundation system lost bearing, I could totally see this happening.
im going to go with massive leak (like a main burst) and sinkhole - i hope they can figure it out, its very frightening.
I am hesitant to say it is caused by sea-level rising. I won't rule it out, but it would be a little lower on probability. I would agree that it may be a result of foundation failure. I do believe it could be resulting in 'groundwater' conditions. If the soil has too much moisture, it's a problem that would compromise the piles. Sea-level rising in the past 40 years shouldn't have resulted in failure because the foundation should have been substantive enough to have supported the structure even if the moisture levels were increased because this is in hurricane territory where storm surges and flooding would have occurred and liquefy the soil because those conditions were conditions the building would have faced from day 1 when the building was built. That is why foundations would be deep so even if the conditions of soil at the upper part of the piles was liquefied, at least 3/4 of the pile length would be in soil where moisture is relatively stable and at least 5/8th of the pile would be in soil that would have sufficient friction that it wouldn't have mattered what sea-level rise over the next 1,000 years even with 2 times the rate of what the estimates were back then because 40 or so years ago, we already knew of sea-level rise. In essence, the pile foundation should be able to support a building twice that of what is designed in soil conditions of half the friction. In that environment, pile foundations should be able to support the building even if half the soil was washed away and it is on stilts. Sink hole conditions does have merit especially if there is some sort of undercutting below the surface level. Is the ocean currents undercutting the beach but somehow the beach is still present and able to support people walking on it? That would be very concerning and would require buildings designed there to be on a floating foundation system and limit building height to 1 story for the first 1/4 to 1/2 mile from the coastline at mean sea level. Honestly, high rise structures should not be built on beach sand or in that type of soil condition within coastal inundation zones including that of tsunamis if one were to occur out in the Atlantic ocean area.
Some projects I work on are for clients in SW Washington coast is mostly on a penninsula ( Long Beach Penninsula ) and the soil conditions are somewhat similar being that its mostly sandy silt and literally is a nightmare for tsunami concerns and related concerns of liquefaction. Some other related concerns, although the exact conditions for natural sink hole conditions are rare... it potentially possible for similar or related problems that can undermine the foundations of buildings. I would not even consider designing houses 12 story tall or anything like that in that kind of conditions especially that close to the beach. Heck, even a 1/4 mile in from the beach. I may consider one-story dwellings that are on stilts with a stair case to get you to the ground but nothing remotely that tall on such precarious soil. When 80% of the penninsula in SW Washington is basically a tsunami inundation zone on the highest peak runup height projected and about 85-95% of the penninsula area north of Oceanview, WA is a liquefaction area. So from a tsunami hazard perspective, it's a nightmare. Even in hurricane (extratropical cyclones), the potential for storm surges and flooding is real and the hazards associated with that which as a designer, I would have to address as a professional and can be among the most difficult projects because clients underestimates the effort needed to make buildings that will withstand the strongest earthquakes, category 5 hurricane level winds, storm surge flooding conditions, AND tsunamis and the occassional snow seasons and not to mention one of the most wettest climates (rain) in NORTH AMERICA. Then you also have to make sure the structure and means for the most effective evacuation possible but you can't alone address the lack of evacuation routes to high ground. If you're project is up near the north end of the pennisula like Oysterville, you have to drive all the way down the pennisula and head up toward Cape Disappointment State Park because that's about the closest high ground area by road otherwise to get to high ground on the east side of Willapa Bay, you have to drive all the way around along the 101 roads up to highway 4 and then take a right to go to Naselle and go up to the higher hillside area or take the 101 road path to Astoria Megler Bridge (hoping the bridge is still standing after the earthquake itself, and make it to Astoria (hopefully the roads are passable and not F.B.R. getting to some hillside location an away from the riverfront enough that you're not at risk from river seiche. Yeah, it's an evacuation nightmare. In regards to the partially collapsed building in Miami, I am confident that the failure is the result of foundation failure in that part of the building but I can't be certain what caused the foundation failure in particular. There is a number of possibilities but I suspect the soil geology under the building was compromised but how.... don't know. Investigators will have their reports, I am going to assume.
The side that collapsed is a mirror of the other side with a few apparently unbraced columns holding up 10 stories. The open area is used for parking. Without specualting as to cause, this looks like an obvious weak point.
Early reports from residents suggest that there may have been large equipment on the roof that may have something to do with the collapse.
Here is a 'before' photo from Google Earth taken at roughly the same point as the last photo above from citizen which is right above the beach. The large mound of debris in the earlier photo is the bulk of the collapsed part of the building.
Then it appears that about 2/3 of the structure collapsed. The massive heap reminds me of the World Trade Center after 9/11. The loss of life will be staggering.
Video of the collapse. Andy Slater on Twitter: "JUST IN: Video I’ve obtained of the building collapse in Surfside, Florida. https://t.co/BGbRC7iSI9" / Twitter
I'm not trying to be morbid, as yes this is video of at least one person dying. But it helps understand the process of the collapse.
Absolutely crazy! Usually you hear of collapses with buildings under construction or recently completed but a building from the 80s...; that's scary.
Damn.
Horrifying.
I check-in here for slightly more informed technical speculation on disasters/collapse scenarios. Still mostly a lot of arm-chair sleuthing but usually a good compliation of publically available info. The Hard Rock Hotel collapse was the last big discussion on a building.
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewt...
^ Some interesting speculation there, on clearly limited info at this point. But enlightening, still.
Also notice how they don't piss all over each other. Maybe they just need some more time.
Thanks t a z! I'll keep checking that link.
A link to the original 1979 permit(?) drawings has been posted. Hive mind is looking at lateral systems and any transfer beams near grade in the structural design. All conventional reinforcement - no PT.
https://www.townofsurfsidefl.g...
Continuation thread:
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewt...
Part 3:
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewt...
You know, when I'm feeling shitty about the world I like to look at this video again. This is the collapse of the pedestrian bridge, also in Miami, filmed by dashcam. What I love about it is the car drives, then slows, then everything crashes and there's a very brief moment of basically shocked silence, then *immediately* everyone's car doors open and people run to help. Like, people mostly ARE good and want to be of service when they can, especailly in a tragedy.
FIU Bridge Collapse Caught on Dash Cam - YouTube
More info, unconfirmed reports say that the basement garage was flooding prior to the collapse.
A Florida high rise that collapsed early Thursday was determined to be unstable a year ago, according to a researcher at Florida International University.
The building, which was constructed in 1981 on reclaimed wetlands, has been sinking at an alarming rate since the 1990s, according to a 2020 study conducted by Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University.
When he heard the news that a condo had collapsed, he immediately knew which building it was, Wdowinski said.
“I looked at it this morning and said ‘Oh my god.’ We did detect that,” he said.
Wdowinski said his research is not meant to suggest any certainty about what caused the collapse of the condominium. The building was sinking at a rate of about 2 millimeters a year in the 1990s, and the sinking could have slowed or accelerated in the time since.
https://www.usatoday.com/story...
I'm surprised no one has mentioned new Renzo Piano's building that was just completed next door to the site of collapse. Apparently 'excessive vibration' complaints were in play during construction. Good chance everyone involved on that project gets sucked into whatever lawsuits are to follow.
Oh damn.
I thought that looked like Piano's condo building, but wasn't sure of it's exact location.
this is terrible
thanks to a different topic on here all I want to know is what diversity labels the architecture office has that designed this...
Please, no...
I don't think that's appropriate rando. Funny, but not appropriate.
I know it’s not appropriate and too soon, sorry for my free association...
It's all good. I just didn't want that douche jla coming over here a spouting more bullshit.
Speaking of the architect, could they, the structural engineer, or the GC involved with this project still be liable for the collapse, despite it being building 40 years old? I was wondering this last night. Curious just how long liability lasts once a structure has been built.
most states (all maybe?) have a statute of limitations on civil liability for design work - usually 5-10 years from when a defect should have been discovered. it's hard to imagine this would be in that range. note too there is a twin building (the north tower) a block away which obviously hasn't collapsed and presumably was done by the same team, so will probably be a useful comparison to study if there is a design or construction flaw.
googled it - i oversimplified above. anyway it still looks like 10 years was the maximum limit in FL under statute of repose (hidden problems) this link gives a good explanation. https://jcj-insurance.com/2015/05/florida-statute-of-repose-when-does-the-clock-begin/
Everybody will be sued. The actions are already being prepared. Limits of liability rest on a variety of fators and legal interpretations such as "when a defect should have been discovered". What about an undiscovered defect?
I also don't think statute of repose applies in instances of gross negligence, which is probable for a failure of this magnitude.
i don't know the law on this, but it's certainly arguable whether any problem that remains hidden for 40 years is due to gross negligence. i'm sure miles is right, and i guess we'll never find out though!
total speculation because we're all just dumb architects, but if re-bar wasn't placed or tied correctly (or per drawings) I would say that is gross negligence and could stay hidden for an indefinite amount of time. Same with soils testing or geotech. Hard to imagine for me that a mistake was made in the actual structural engineering calcs or design, but I suppose it is possible.
yeah who knows. there's so many ways to screw up a building and most of them never will matter or will be a small factor compared to major construction / renovation mistakes. i worked at a firm that got sued for problems arising during construction on a city project which were in fact due to errors in the engineering calcs... reading all these things makes me long to be a construction lawyer - it's fun picking apart the possibilities. i wonder if that actually pays well.
Something to remember: even if the statue for liability has run out that won't prevent someone from being sued. It just means that after hiring a lawyer and going to court the case would likely be dismissed. The process for the defendant is still costly and can impact their liability insurance costs.
Some of how a suit can happen... They've known there were structural issues for a long time. Theoretically, if those issues were noted within the statute of limitation, that starts the clock again, and so forth until the problem is corrected or agreement is made. They might still be on the hook, particularly if the problems weren't addressed and 'just monitored'. btw; I'll probably have to be quiet on this one...NDS... /cough, cough/...
Bummer for us mightyaa. I was actually hoping you'd be able to chime in given your expertise.
I think there may be a whirlwind of lawsuits happening at some point and the client's legal counsel and insurance companies will almost certainly demand it. If anyone was injured (didn't read through the original post or news articles on it yet in-depth), there is almost certain there will be suits for injury (general liability) and possibly more. So it's going to be a hornet nest of lawyers, subpoenas, serving notice of intent to sue, etc.
A few years ago, the last time that I visited Florida when they earthquake hit the east coast, a man died in Florida when unexpectantly a sink hole developed and swallowed his house while he slept at night. This appears to be a big deal in Florida and South America.
I suspect that this problem is related to either a sink hole or undetected sub surface water that eroded the sub soils below the foundation…….sort of like that 40 story condo tower in San Francisco that has sunk 15 inches after construction.
https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southeast/2011/03/30/192278.htm
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfchronicle.com/environment/amp/San-Francisco-Bay-Area-sinking-under-its-own-15961703.php
BSET
https://youtu.be/kw5VkI2JAqM
Half of SOMA never existed before end of 19th century. It was man made - lost pirate ships parked by the piers were buried under the sand. Now we have skyscrapers on the top of that. Millennium tower foundation never even reached the bedrock. It is fantastically expensive.
Well, in the case of 60 story Millennium tower in San Francisco, they gutted the lobby to install piles - other wise this could have ended up like WTC 1 and 2.
https://www.enr.com/articles/5...
This is very horrifying
condition report done in 2018, courtesy reddit
https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/docs/default-source/default-document-library/town-clerk-documents/champlain-towers-south-public-records/8777-collins-ave---structural-field-survey-report.pdf
page 8, indication of ongoing garage column failure
The architecture firm was dissolved 20 years ago.
Holy shit! Thanks for posting this. Ignoring this report is truly disturbing!
Cliff notes version from the Miami Herald
"Morabito '[sturctural engineer] wrote [in 2018] that the “main issue” at Champlain Towers was that the pool deck and outdoor planters “laid on a flat structure” preventing water from draining. The lack of waterproofing was “a systemic issue” that traced back to a flaw “in the development of the original contract documents” 40 years ago, the report said.
The report documented how the years of standing water on the pool deck had severely damaged the concrete structural slabs below. The problem needed to be addressed quickly, Morabito wrote.
“Failure to replace waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially,” he wrote. The proper repair would be an “extremely expensive” undertaking, he
“[R]emoval of the concrete topping slab to gain access to the waterproofing membrane will take time, be disruptive and create a major disturbance to the occupants of this condominium structure,” the report said.
The parking garage under the pool deck and planter slabs also “revealed signs of distress/fatigue,” according to Morabito’s report. “Several sizable [cracks in the concrete] were noted in both the topside of the entrance drive ramp and underside of the pool/entrance drive/planter slabs, which included instances with exposed, deteriorating rebar,” according to the report.
“Though some of this damage is minor, most of the concrete deterioration needs to be repaired in a timely fashion,” the report said.
Morabito noted that previous attempts by other contractors to repair cracks in the garage “were ineffective” and didn’t fix the problem.
Now officials are discussing evacuating the sister building north of the failed structure until things get sorted out. (I didn't even realize there was a sister building)
Would be nice to hear an opinion of architects from Florida, they should know better the situation
IMHO sadly, most of Florida is made of different kinds of limestone, sandy subsoil layers, other misc types of land. Florida is the LOWEST state from sea level; also its amount of sink holes is growing yearly (cavity that is developing in limestone, which is ruining it little by little). Due to global warming ocean level is rising, water has been taking over the land more.(that it is a growing issue, because public beach area gets smaller, approaching private area land. Authorities has not provided any help to people yet, whose land and housing is disappearing in water). Tall structures, located next to each other on sand by the water, are heavy enough to affect each other w time (sinking, leaning etc). Collapsed building had a WARNING from 2018 about not being seismically compliant from the engineer. No one did anything about it.
Florida is a republican state, as well as one of the most corrupted.. Politics spend a lot of years to make people believe in non-existence of climate change, as well as ignore people who already faced it. Huge chuck of Florida will be underwater by 2100, unless people will start doing something about it now.
PS its not only Florida. Kiribati and other territories, located at sea level w sandy, coral types of soil will be gone.
And yet had the pool deck been properly designed from the drainage aspect 40 years ago the building would still be standing.
Or properly repaired at any time since then, especially after that 2018 structural report.
This is why I always design some slope into terraces and green roofs, even though the Hydrotech reps say you can go completely flat. Yes, your waterproofing product is good, but what happens in 60 years when it has never been maintained....
I don't know if that will be true and even then it maybe only true but does not mean it wouldn't have collapsed anyway just maybe a little later. The pool leaking and contributing to the underlying soil to be compromised is a concern. Other factors may have resulted in the building collapsing, anyway. We need investigative report on the cause of the collapse. That's going to take some time. The first and biggest mistake is this type of development should not even be done at all in Florida let alone within 5 to 10 miles of the beach. Structures between 1 and 5 miles of the beach or the water line level of mean sea level should be no more than 1 or 2 stories tall of wood frame construction (limited use of concrete / steel to stuff like slab and piles). From 5 miles to 10 miles, 3-5 stores of wood frame and light steel frame and maybe post & beam construction.... depending on geological report. In my opinion a 1000 ft deep geological study of the entire coast line witin 10 miles of the coast must be done to find existing and developing below surface hazards. Additionally there should be geotechnical studies done for ANY development anywhere in the state for a depth as may be required for the property but at least 100 ft deep to determine any possible underlying sink hole hazard. All of Florida especially the Florida peninsula is subject of underground hazards like sink holes and other hazards of compromised soil. While that is my opinion, it is sadly based on the precarious nature of the geology that is wasn't really land properly suitable for some of the developments that had been developed in the area.
This is also messed up. I've seen officials getting paid off for smaller projects but I can't imagine what could go on with the larger scale projects. https://nypost.com/2021/06/27/...
The bigger the project, the bigger the bribes. U$A.
You must know some shady people Miles. I've never encountered bribery in my career. Oh wait, my clients don't have money like that. :P
Wow!!!
I once saw a coworker get blasted by management for for brining donuts to a 9am meeting with a government client...
I knew a guy whose first job in NYC development was delivering envelopes full of cash.
@natematt - what are you supposed to bring, Yankees tickets and 20-year scotch?
Photo of basement column in sister condo a block to the north that has not collapsed. (From Eng-tips.com)
Another Miami, Florida, condo was evacuated after it was learned the condo board was sitting on a structural engineer's report saying the building was unfit for occupancy due to structural and electrical issues. This the Crestview Towers, about 4 miles northwest of the collapsed Surfside condo. It is on a canal, not directly fronting the ocean.
21 Million Floridians Evacuated After State Deemed Structurally Unsound
I think the entire state is emotionally and menially unsound. ;)
Dont ever google "Florida man"
I've heard all about 'that guy'.
Plausible collapse sequence animation with pool deck collapse as the initiating event. Zero redundancy in this structural design, not best practice by today's standards. NY Times series is digging into some of the details with fancy rebar graphics.
friendly reminder to fold your slabs at all occupied outdoor space! don't put waterproofing at grade. don't bury it between topping slabs. don't hide it in a build up to FFE that makes it impossible to inspect/repair. don't expose waterproofing to foot traffic! don't force your landscape architect to build amenities on waterproofed FFE!
structural or topping slab with slope to drain--->waterproofing membrane--->protective mat--->continuous drainage material-->pedestals/turf/decking/whatever to FFE.
And the slope; it is a roof, therefore 1/4" per foot code minimum regardless of what the manufacturer will warranty. Even if it is a garage below, this is the roof of that garage and code dictates slope. I've seen a lot of podium waterproofing failures and they are super expensive to repair; I've yet to see a failure that also doesn't have slope issues as one of those things that went wrong. Seriously, treat it like a roof and beat it into your firm's standard details.
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