Archinect
anchor

Dead/live loads

176
F-Z-J

hey, first post! 

Can anyone help me figure out where the live and dead loads would be on this structure? 

Live load via wind, and also dead load, settlement loads, live loads and ground pressure? 

This is the information centre in St. Paul’s churchyard- London. 

Thanks 

 
Apr 7, 21 12:01 pm
F-Z-J

bump

Apr 7, 21 12:20 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

19mins for a bump, new record? Anyways, when is your homework due?

Apr 7, 21 12:22 pm  · 
7  · 
Wood Guy

No, we can't do your homework for you. If you tell us what you think the loads are, perhaps we can give you feedback. 

Edit to add: responses will take more than 19 minutes.

Apr 7, 21 12:23 pm  · 
4  · 
F-Z-J

Ok, I’ll send you drawings shortly. Thanks

Apr 7, 21 1:17 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

hey, have you seen the drawings at the bottom? thanks

Apr 13, 21 5:47 pm  · 
 · 
( o Y o )

wind load is a factor of bean consumption

Apr 7, 21 12:46 pm  · 
3  ·  1
F-Z-J

I’ve posted a pic of the frame. I’ll do preliminary drawings and post them

Apr 7, 21 1:20 pm  · 
 · 
atelier nobody

Depends if you consider the rats in the walls live load or dead load.

Apr 7, 21 1:03 pm  · 
4  · 

Don't forget the cats that are there to hunt the rats.

Apr 7, 21 1:15 pm  · 
3  · 
atelier nobody

Cats are definitely live load, but rats, despite being technically alive, could be considered part of the structure...

Apr 7, 21 1:21 pm  · 
1  · 
Wood Guy

But are they gravity loads or lateral loads? Or both? Gotta free body diagram that shit.

Apr 7, 21 1:23 pm  · 
 · 

See my diagram below . . .

Apr 7, 21 1:29 pm  · 
 · 
JLC-1

snow 85 psf - wind 115 mph ( 3 second gusts)

Apr 7, 21 1:23 pm  · 
 · 

Here you go.


Apr 7, 21 1:27 pm  · 
5  · 
Non Sequitur

Maybe suggest a spoiler to keep things grounded?

Apr 7, 21 1:58 pm  · 
2  · 

Naw, the rats, cats, and birds will keep things stuck down good.

Apr 7, 21 5:40 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

I hope that one day I will be as successful of an architect as you - being at the worlds best School is a good start I suspect.

Apr 8, 21 11:46 am  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

^not a good endorsement of the “worlds best school”

Apr 8, 21 12:04 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Kinda like being the king - if you have to say you're at the world's best school, you're not the world's best student.

Apr 8, 21 12:22 pm  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

learning via zoom hasn't been ideal

Apr 8, 21 12:23 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Do I have to tell Ochsendorf you're crowdsourcing his problem sets?

Apr 8, 21 12:24 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Snark aside - Wood Guy is onto something here. I'm happy to guide honest attempts towards a better solution, but no one here is going to take the first step for you.

Apr 8, 21 12:37 pm  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

Ding ding ding SSTduds. But really, if all that is required is a vector diagram, then Chad is more than halfway there.

Apr 8, 21 12:54 pm  · 
 · 

F-Z-J - Part of architecture is figuring things out. If you're not willing to even look this up and present a possible solution for a critique then you're not going to get far.

Apr 8, 21 1:00 pm  · 
1  · 
mightyaa

I thought for sure someone would troll it with "RE: Structural" markups.

Apr 8, 21 7:14 pm  · 
 · 
rcz1001

Did you buy your required textbook for your "Structures" class? If you haven't taken it out of its sealed wrapping, you are every day behind since the first day of class. I'm not going to do your homework or spend my time teaching you. If you don't already know how to do this, you shouldn't be in the class you are in if they are requiring that knowledge & skills because you didn't take the class that teaches you basic engineering principles like how to calculate beams. Dude, rafters and floor joists are, for all intents and purposes, beams. Given the huge tributary load, you need to know the roof's live-load, dead load, wind load, and snow loads and calculate for various combinations of loads including possibly computing for the most extreme load conditions so your weakest elements don't fail. You should find the requirements for the types of loads in the codebook and/or local jurisdiction for the design location for the project. Even if the project is fictitious because it is a class assignment, you should have the information either provided to you or find it by contacting that jurisdiction or whatever. This will likely be your fasteners because if they fail, it really doesn't matter, the beams will likely fall down on someone. There are various resources out there for finding the properties of the fasteners from typical common nails, screws, and bolts to more specialized fasteners. You should already have a floor plan of some sort indicating where possible bearing walls and columns would be - if there are any but for some reason, I doubt the roof members are going to span the whole distance given their apparent dimensions without intermediate load-bearing support to transfer the loads to footings or grade beams. 

Another concept you need to be attentive to is the concept of tributary load. In short, it is the area from halfway between spans from a column to the next column or bearing wall by the half-way span between intermediate rows of rafters or joists, or girders (usually perpendicular to the direction of the span of the beam. The concept applies to your above roof, as well but I think the design isn't accounting for the load, somehow. 

Here's something to help you understand the concept of tributary area and various equations for calculating floor loads on beams as well as roofs depends on this concept being understood and knowing how to calculate the tributary area and the load over that area as such as related concepts like tributary width and tributary load per linear foot of beam. A joist, a rafter, etc. are all forms of beams (small beams but the concept applies) and usually require smaller loads due to smaller dimensions. 

You'll probably also want to read up on trusses and space frame concepts as well because there appears to be some aspect of that that may be applied to that building's design.

If you are trying to figure out how to calculate this stuff and you weren't taught engineering enough to do the calculations in preceding classes, you are up sh-t creek and you are doomed to fail (poorly) and none of us can help you learn these concepts quickly enough over this forum platform. There are too many things to teach you that you don't know that we can't possibly teach you in a 3-5 typical length sentence response. Sorry. If you have to do calculations for this homework project and you haven't had sufficiently advance engineering classes and understand how to calculate trusses, beams, columns, space frames, arches, lamella roof calculations, etc. If you aren't already at that level, you are not ready to do this in a homework assignment in its ridiculously small amount of time frame to teach you. 

In my opinion, you are up to nose deep in sh-t creek. 

Apr 8, 21 4:44 am  · 
2  · 
rcz1001

In this case, a project "located" in London (UK) - maybe check the Eurocodes for the UK and look for the regulatory requirements for roof loads and so forth for that type of use occupancy if the London area. I suspect that the biggest requirements are wind, rain, and some snow but again, I'm not going to do your homework.

Apr 8, 21 5:03 am  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

no calculations required, only illustrate the types of loads on the structure.

Apr 8, 21 11:45 am  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

Why haven't you shared a sketch of what you think the loads are? Don't you have a textbook? Or Google? https://theconstructor.org/structural-engg/types-of-loads-on-structure/1698/#:~:text=The%20types%20of%20loads%20acting,wind%20load%20and%20earthquake%20load.

Apr 8, 21 12:51 pm  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

Thanks - there is a lot of work, and the illustration of particular loads is one part of the project.

Apr 8, 21 1:02 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

if you don't want to help me, can you please go away? Thanks 

Apr 8, 21 11:47 am  · 
 ·  4
Non Sequitur

That’s not how this works.

Apr 8, 21 12:02 pm  · 
4  · 
F-Z-J

so, people should be free to troll and harass and bully me? if you don't want to help, please kindly go away.

Apr 8, 21 12:22 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

If that is what you consider harassement, bully, or trolling, then you have a very difficult road ahead of you. You’re in school, figure this shit out for yourself instead of asking for shortcuts.

Apr 8, 21 12:25 pm  · 
2  · 
F-Z-J

I'll upload what I think is right maybe tomorrow and if you can help, I'd appreciate it. 

Apr 8, 21 12:47 pm  · 
2  · 
Wood Guy

It's ok if you're wrong. It's important to get used to being wrong. But it's important to try. Yes, we'll review and critique. Almost certainly with some snark because it's the internet and most of us learned this stuff in the dark ages.

Apr 8, 21 1:01 pm  · 
2  · 

That's a great idea. You should of started with that.

Apr 8, 21 1:02 pm  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

hi guys, I've read the plans, the design statement and dozens of websites and I can't find the name of this structure - is it a sawtooth frame? thanks 

Apr 10, 21 4:37 pm  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

It looks like a space frame to me--a 3-dimensional truss. But it's hard to tell from the photo, and that type of project is outside my expertise.

Apr 10, 21 6:39 pm  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

Do you think the frame is partially beneath the surface to the foundation? Or attached to a levelled cement floor/surface above the soil??Thanks

Apr 11, 21 5:13 am  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

Actually, you can see in the pics it’s above ground. Thanks

Apr 11, 21 5:13 am  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

I'll help you out with some clues, though you have not yet done what you said you would do and tried showing the loads yourself. This was what you asked: figure out where the live and dead loads would be on this structure? Live load via wind, and also dead load, settlement loads, live loads and ground pressure?

As others have pointed out, live loads and dead loads are "gravity loads," they come from above and act directly downward. Gravity loads on the roof are live load from snow and dead load from the weight of the structure itself. Wind uplift counteracts the gravity load but that's probably beyond what they want you to know. Gravity loads on the interior act downward on the floor. Interior live load is the occupants. The interior dead load is the weight of the structure. Both act directly down.

The reaction to these downward loads--the force that keeps the building from sinking into the ground--is the reaction load. It pushes up to counteract the gravity loads. "Ground pressure" isn't an engineering term I'm familiar with but soil bearing pressure is--that's how much the soil is pushing up against the forces pushing down.

Then we get to wind loads, which are one type of lateral load. Wind pushes horizontally on the building's walls, and also the roof, though when pushing against a non-vertical surface the forces have to be resolved into their component vertical and horizontal components, which I would think you'd have gotten into by now but I went to engineering school and not architecture school so I'm not sure. The other lateral load you didn't mention is seismic, which shakes a building and generates significant lateral loads.

Settlement pressure results in internal stresses, mainly in the floor system but it can also translate to the rest of the structure. It typically results from the weight-bearing portions of the building sinking into the ground a bit, while the non-bearing portions don't sink, so you essentially get upward pressure in the middle of the floor where there aren't footings supporting the structure. This can also be differential settling, where some portions of the building settle more than others.

Apr 12, 21 6:17 pm  · 
1  · 
rcz1001

First, it is not a regular roof type. It's a custom roof design that involves concepts from various roof types. This is why trying to decide what roof type is going to be a fruitless effort because it isn't a "type" of roof. "Type" implies that the roof design is used on multiple buildings establishing a typology. This is custom designed and engineered and probably involves principles from multiple roof types.

Apr 13, 21 9:57 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

ok, thanks 

Apr 10, 21 6:51 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

So the above drawing is what I've done based on the drawings online. Is the yellow arrow where the holding down bold goes? Also, is the red arrow where the foundation is? Thanks 

Apr 11, 21 8:58 am  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

hold down *bolt

Apr 11, 21 2:21 pm  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

And architects wonder why those of us who learned how to design and build things on our own don't have a high opinion of architectural education...

If you are drawing this type of building and don't know WHERE THE FOUNDATION GOES then I'm afraid no internet forum is going to be able to help you. Personally I like putting the foundation on the roof, and I connect the hold-down bolt to the front door so it doesn't blow away.

I apologize for the snark, but I thought you were going to show us where you thought the external loads were that act on the (or any) structure, and possibly the reaction loads that you actually design for.

Apr 12, 21 11:08 am  · 
2  · 
F-Z-J

ok, well I am a first year student and we are learning entirely online and they've not taught us much detail about the foundations - not much detail about anything tbh. I'm not asking if the foundation goes above or beneath the building, but it in that diagram, is that the foundation because there is a gap between the building and the foundation. furthermore, it looks different from the engineers diagram of the foundation but I also wanted to know if where I put the yellow arrow, is where the holding down bolt would go.

Apr 12, 21 11:44 am  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

It's hard to say on the first diagram what is actual foundation, since it's not a typical type of construction. They should start you off with relatively conventional buildings to learn the basics, not something as unusual as this. Or if this building was your choice, you should start with something that looks more like a normal building, until you understand the various parts and pieces and how they relate. But to answer your question, my GUESS is that the mauve-colored area is the foundation, and in that case, yes the hold-downs would go roughly where your yellow arrow is.

Apr 12, 21 11:55 am  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

they chose the building.

Apr 12, 21 12:05 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

ok, that makes sense! Thanks!!!!

Apr 12, 21 12:18 pm  · 
 · 
rcz1001

How are you possibly going to answer this correctly for a homework assignment if they haven't even taught you basic principles of engineering? Make a guess and go with it. You are going to be wrong so make the instructor explain this. There is no way you should be attempting to do this on this building on first year in what is it.... 2nd term or semester. Good luck. Just accept you are going to answer incorrectly and simply point out they set the class up to fail with only chance someone answers correctly is that the student either is lucky to be answering it correctly by chance of a guess or that student has a more advance education like an engineering degree or something of that and is not a typical first-year student. So... good luck.

Apr 13, 21 10:18 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

bump 

Apr 12, 21 10:03 am  · 
 · 

I'm starting to think that the the student from the 'worlds best school' is actually just a troll. 

Apr 12, 21 10:10 am  · 
2  · 
F-Z-J

why are you calling me a troll? do you want to see my student ID, or will that just make you feel even more insecure - because I'm pretty sure only insecure people try and bully others.

Apr 12, 21 11:38 am  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

can I ask, where did you study?

Apr 12, 21 11:46 am  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

I can only guess that your answer to that question will go a long way to explaining your insecurities.

Apr 12, 21 12:06 pm  · 
 ·  1
Non Sequitur

Oh no, Chad... whatch out. This random dude from "the best school in the world" but who can't figure out how to do basic vector diagrams is calling you out.

Apr 12, 21 12:19 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

As a once-cocky first year, take my advice FZJ & save yourself the regret of remembering this silly rant one random late night a decade from now.

Apr 12, 21 12:26 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

I am a first year student, as you all were once also. I am learning online too. there is no need to mock me.


Apr 12, 21 12:39 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

we're not mocking. we're letting you know that this is not how to do research and/or learn. The answer(s) to your problems are in this discussion... you just need to read in between the snark.

Apr 12, 21 1:09 pm  · 
 · 

F-Z-J - I'm not mocking you. You're either a troll or extremely unprepared to handle basic higher education. All you've done is ask us to do your homework for you. Your questions show that you've put no effort into this assignment Why not contact other students or your professor? 

You wanted my credentials. Well here you go.

I'm an architect who's been practicing for 18 years. 


Apr 12, 21 2:40 pm  · 
 · 

NS - I've been called out by a first year student who is attending one of the 'top schools in world' who can't research, write coherent questions, ask for help from classmates, read a textbook, or find a youtube tutorial on how to determine locations of live and dead loads.

Wait until this student realized that:

1. They are never getting into grad school at this rate.

2.  Where you went to school doesn't matter as long as you have a degree from an accredited university.

3.  Being able to do research on subjects like this is a basic skill needed to become an architect.  Sorry FZJ - you'll have to do things like this all the time.  

Apr 12, 21 2:47 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

I'm not unprepared - I really doubt you could do any better than me in your first year, hence why you didn't go to the schools where I was admitted.

yeah, you have experience and could help me but instead you try and mock me. I doubt in 20 years time I'll be giving first years stick for asking for help. and what with the "top schools" - you have a problem with top schools - is it rooted in not attending one? have you not noticed on here some people are trying to help me, whilst others, like yourself, are going me stick? mocking/bullying is a sign of insecurity. I can do those things but I want confirmation it's right and dw, I wont be asking you and in fact, I would rather you stop replying or I'll just block you. thanks 

Apr 12, 21 2:50 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

I'm not unprepared - I really doubt you could do any better than me in your first year, hence why you didn't go to the schools where I was admitted.

Apr 12, 21 2:50 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

It's unwise to insult the intelligence of people you're also asking for help. That might be a 2nd Year lesson, though.

Apr 12, 21 2:53 pm  · 
4  · 
F-Z-J

he's clearly not helping me - in fact, he's trying to insult me. 


Apr 12, 21 2:55 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

Chad actually offered some excellent help. Not our fault you're not bright enough to get it and for what it's worth, I most certainly would have been able to do this back when I was in 1st year undergrad... and we did not even have facebook back then... 

Having/expecting access to "answers" instantly from your phone is detrimental to learning for some I guess.

Apr 12, 21 2:59 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

I'm sure you could've.

Apr 12, 21 3:04 pm  · 
 · 

FZJ - why are you not asking for help from your professor or other students? Why won't you name the school you go to if it's one the best in the world? Why post anonymously?

I think it's because you're ashamed you don't understand your assignment and are embarrassed to let others know.  It's clear you've got an oversized ego and I suspect you can't handle it.  

I've actually be extremally helpful to your OP.  To make things simpler for you I've posted an more direct diagram farther down the page.  At this point others and myself have basically done your assignment for you.  Anymore help would be dishonest as you've have done no work other than presentation graphics.  

Apr 12, 21 3:13 pm  · 
3  · 
Non Sequitur

Hey, even the best studio classes from the best schools still have students at the bottom of the list.

Apr 12, 21 3:25 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

I took a guess at the school by name dropping a professor and it was ignored, so either I was wrong & the post was confusing, or I was right & hit a nerve.

Apr 12, 21 3:27 pm  · 
 · 

Yeah I saw that tduds. I think the OP just ignores things that upset him / her. I'm rather certain you've figured out where he / she is going to school at. That saddens me because it's a really good school and I'm disappointed to see that such a lazy, egotistical, and dishonest person was accepted.

Apr 12, 21 3:42 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

As I alluded to above, I was also a cocky little shit at that age, high on ego after being the best at everything for 18 years culminating in my arrival at "The Best" college. I wasn't the only one there like that, but the impossibly challenging expectations there have a way of breaking you down by Year 3.

Apr 12, 21 3:48 pm  · 
 · 

A bit of humility is a good thing. There is nothing wrong with saying 'I don't know, let me do some research and get back to you'.

Apr 12, 21 5:04 pm  · 
3  · 
tintt

They don't teach you anything in school, they just judge you (grades) on whether you already know it/have the resources to cheat or otherwise find out.

Apr 12, 21 5:08 pm  · 
 · 

I don't agree with that tintt. I learned quite a bit in school without resources beyond my classmates.

Apr 12, 21 5:58 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

I am egotistical, but I am not particularly lazy, and I am not being dishonest - this is coursework, not an exam. I am sure some of the wealthier students/students with architects in their families have sought professional help - without a doubt!

Apr 12, 21 6:29 pm  · 
 · 
rcz1001

world's best school? I doubt it when it fails basic academic curricular principles of teaching and instructions like "thou shall not require student to do something in a homework assignment without the instruction that would be needed in order for the student to even do the assignment". Could they have actually failed basic principles of academic instruction because you should have the resources in the instruction including text book and other assigned readings to help you through the concepts needed to do the assignments.

F-Z-J, did you enroll in this class without a prerequisite course in engineering because you need at least a semester or two of engineering courses to even be ready to study the load paths of this building you are analyzing.

Apr 13, 21 10:31 pm  · 
 · 
joseffischer

This thing looks so overdone basically because the str eng said OMG crazy shapes, better add more steel


Apr 12, 21 10:29 am  · 
 · 
senjohnblutarsky

My structural engineer would have a heart attack. And then tell us the only way it was possible was in poured concrete or something ridiculous.

Apr 12, 21 11:34 am  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

it was done by Arup

"Taking the top spot in the Engineering Equality firm rankings and 10th for World View".

https://www.newcivilengineer.c...



Apr 12, 21 11:45 am  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

not to say everything they do is amazing, but they're pretty respected internationally

Apr 12, 21 1:20 pm  · 
 · 
joseffischer

sure sure, Arup is who all the starchitects hire... I'm sure it won't fall down. I'm just saying, step back a moment. We've got a 1-story roof with some crazy cantilevers, and those cantilevers have some serious weight, mostly due to the structure itself, but I'd love to see the concept redone with the attitude that the 'shell' was going to be just tent fabric, or break out the 1970's concrete shapes again, look at CAST or something, use the fiber-reinforced concrete... Just tired of the "arch's made a crazy shape, underneath is a moment frame of steel built like an airplane" model

Apr 14, 21 11:47 am  · 
 · 
joseffischer

Frankly, I'm sure the designer would shoot me, but my first response would be "let's put some nice thin columns at the end of your wings here and here" and call it a day

Apr 14, 21 11:48 am  · 
 · 
t a z

https://www.e-architect.com/lo...

The large spans and cantilevers required have been achieved using a steel frame braced by a structural ply skin and clad in stainless steel panels. This solution minimises the thickness of the structural envelope – an important consideration in a building of this scale. In addition, the sensitive and restricted nature of the site made a rapid construction method highly desirable. Accordingly, the steel frame was prefabricated in 2 separate sections which were craned onto the site at night and assembled over the course of a couple of days

https://www.archdaily.com/2003...

https://www.makearchitects.com...

Apr 12, 21 11:40 am  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

thanks, I read that article already but it doesn't answer my last question

Apr 12, 21 11:48 am  · 
 · 
t a z

You can see cast-in anchor bolts and leveling shims in multiple construction photos from the MAKE architects site. This matches what's shown in the engineering detail with the concrete knee wall on a spread footing.

There is also a horizontal post-install anchor bolt, likely because the crank in pre-fab frame causes reactions to act at an angle. 

So what's your question?

Apr 12, 21 12:05 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

thanks!

Apr 12, 21 12:18 pm  · 
 · 
mightyaa

I'm still trying to figure out what the question is. Live load is the occupant loads. Dead loads are the weight of the structure. Wind load is super-imposed lateral along the face. (Snow loads are part of roof live loads). Using the pythagorean theorem, you can figure out how vertical forces are converted to horizontal and vertical components when angled. Load diagrams and moment diagrams illustrate the loads at each intersection and you track it down to the earth. This one is a bit trickier because the lateral (horizontal forces) will also have a vector off the z-axis.

Apr 12, 21 1:55 pm  · 
3  · 
F-Z-J

thanks, I'll draw them onto the diagrams and show you what I've done. thanks

Apr 12, 21 2:54 pm  · 
 · 
t a z

Whatever structural theory or construction class this is for, the footing detail and plan posted upstream are from the structural set (not in public domain) which is likely being used with permission for this class. If OP has access to the complete CDs there's a lot of info that can be extracted without as much guesswork.  I don't think we're getting the full picture.

Apr 12, 21 6:35 pm  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

It's a British building and all info is in the public domain - it's called the freedom of information act.

Apr 12, 21 7:07 pm  · 
 · 
rcz1001

That was particularly helpful.... lol. Maybe try again later and see if the document is accessible from that link or something.

Apr 13, 21 10:45 pm  · 
 · 

Never say I wasn't helpful.

Apr 12, 21 3:08 pm  · 
3  · 
F-Z-J

Thanks, I'm going to give it a go myself and post what I think. thanks

Apr 12, 21 6:22 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

Hi, have you seen my attempt below? Thanks

Apr 13, 21 12:34 pm  · 
 · 
tintt

Dead load is dead bodies, live load is live bodies. But as to which goes in the attic and which go in the crawlspace, you have to consult your local building codes.


Apr 12, 21 4:51 pm  · 
2  ·  1
x-jla

I hear the guy the main building was commissioned for went from a dead load to a live load. They say he was a carpenter, but must be an engineer with funny maths like that.

Apr 13, 21 3:47 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

I'm not sure how the loads will travel through the beam, connecting the structure? 

Apr 13, 21 12:01 pm  · 
1  · 
Wood Guy

That's a good start. I'm not sure if you saw the comment I added above, about halfway down the page.

Apr 13, 21 12:17 pm  · 
1  · 
Almosthip

You must have a roof top patio with all that Live Load going on up there

Apr 13, 21 12:27 pm  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

Thanks, I've just read it. Is it right to have the settlement loads acting in both directions? is there anything I need to add to the first? Furthermore, can you help me with the second? I'm not sure how the forces act on the front beam. It's wide and stretches across. 


Apr 13, 21 12:33 pm  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

I'm not entirely sure how to show the settlement loads; I only design houses and it's not something we worry about. I think they would be green arrows down at the perimeter and up at the center of the structure. On the first drawing you are missing live loads at the first floor/ground level: people walking around. And you're missing both dead loads and live loads at the roof and ground floor. They should look just like your orange arrows pointing down. Those arrows can be smaller. "Ground pressure" (not an official term, IMO) should push up against the footings (big arrows), up against the first floor (smaller arrows) and horizontally at the footings.

Apr 13, 21 5:52 pm  · 
 · 
rcz1001

When calculating loads to footings and grade beams, you need to calculate in total loads (a sum of loads) and the area under the load may need to be spread over a larger area in order to not exceed soil bearing capacity in terms of weight units per square area. Sometimes you may need to go to deep foundation systems. I don't know the answer to this nor want to calculate the load for F-Z-J. It's already a headache.

Apr 13, 21 10:51 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

here, blue is tension, green is compression and the purple is deflection

Apr 13, 21 12:25 pm  · 
 · 
mightyaa

blue would be compression, green tension

Apr 13, 21 12:28 pm  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

I've done it the wrong way? would the centre beam thats travelling right to left, top to bottom also be compression?


Apr 13, 21 12:35 pm  · 
 · 

While the top beams will bend and experience some compression the the load will be handled in tension (green arrows) until it is transferred to the angled columns. At the columns the forces will be handled in compression (dashed blue)


Apr 13, 21 12:59 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

a coloured 3D model would be much easier than a simplified elevation drawing.

Apr 13, 21 1:06 pm  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

a drawing is what they expected

Apr 13, 21 1:45 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

What "they" expect is a thorough investigation and intelligent answer. multiple views of even a sketchup model (prob less than 1hr's worth of work) will make a big difference. If that's too much, use standard arrows to indicate compression and tension members. It'll be easier than muddy colours.

Apr 13, 21 2:00 pm  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

ok, I'll use diff colours - thanks

Apr 13, 21 3:30 pm  · 
 · 
rcz1001

I'm having a headache trying to read the drawings by F-Z-J. Anyone else?

Apr 13, 21 11:08 pm  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

I'm not sure if that's any closer?



Apr 13, 21 12:52 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

For the top one, is it right that the settlement load acts in both directions? 


Also, are my marking for blue compression and green tension correct, and the deflection be acting in those directions? thanks  

Apr 13, 21 3:40 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

also, I'm unsure how the load will act across that front beam. thanks

Apr 13, 21 3:42 pm  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

Do they show where these section cuts are taken? Usually free body diagrams like this are in a single plane, but I think we are looking at a three-dimensional structure? I saw the images in your first post but it's not clear to me how these sections relate. There are different ways you could show the load in or on the "front beam," assuming you mean the beam across the top of the image. If the assignment is to show the loads acting ON the structure, you shouldn't have to show how the loads are transferred through the structure. But if you want to do both, if the only columns under that beam are at the ends, then the top of the beam will be in compression, the bottom will be in tension, and the reaction loads at the ends will be upward to counteract the loads pushing down on the beam.

Apr 13, 21 6:00 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

yeah, it's a section of the building but I've included the entire steal shell structure.

Apr 13, 21 6:05 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

hey 


Apr 13, 21 5:41 pm  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

Rude. We all have jobs and are doing you a favor by helping you with your homework. Try being nice instead of demanding.

Apr 13, 21 6:00 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

hey, I'm sorry, I wasn't intending to rude - I wanted to bump the tread without saying bump. I've just uploaded the latest drawings if you don't having a look - I think i've understood what you said.

Apr 13, 21 6:16 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

don't mind have a look please... I'm not sure how many mistakes I've made. we can't sit down with lecturers and have them explain to use what we need to know.

Apr 13, 21 6:51 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J




I've made the back of the structure lighter, and the front beams darker, so I think it's easier to see what is going on. is either of the diagrams I've done right? 

Apr 13, 21 6:49 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

I have to hand this is in a few hours if anyone can help me confirm if it’s right/wrong please? Thanks 

Apr 13, 21 9:38 pm  · 
 · 
Almosthip7

Wow just wow.

Apr 13, 21 11:17 pm  · 
2  · 
rcz1001

F-Z-J, this isn't instant messaging or live chat. I'm sure the few hours have already passed by.

It would take a bit more than a few hours to confirm if it is correct therefore ---- I'm going to confirm it is WRONG because there is almost certainly not correct somewhere in the diagram. If it isn't 100% correct, it's wrong but you may still get some credit for effort considering it is an assignment vs an exam and given the sheer difficulty of the assignment with what appears to be inadequate instruction.


Apr 13, 21 11:21 pm  · 
1  · 
F-Z-J

Where is it incorrect? Thanks

Apr 14, 21 2:17 am  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

Where is it incorrect? Thanks

Apr 14, 21 2:17 am  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

Please do come back and let us how you did with the assignment. This reminds me why teaching early undergrad years could get so exhausting. There is always that group of kids who demand the “right” answer instead of understanding the process required.

Apr 14, 21 7:01 am  · 
3  · 
F-Z-J

I'm not demanding the answer, I want to know where and why I've gone wrong - surely that would help me understand - I understanding is more important than doing it right. 

Although this assignment could've gone better, I know I can improve and do better in the future .

Apr 14, 21 8:03 am  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

where you went "wrong" is that your first approach (other than crowd-sourcing your homework) was to reduce a complex structural frame to simple flat elevation drawings. Had you modelled it, or even, gasp, hand-drawn a perspective, you would have had a much easier time identifying tension/compression, sheer/moment, uplift forces... etc. You made this assignment far more complicated than it needed to be. It's a triangular space truss for Sean Connery's (pbuh) sake... the answers are right there in your face.

Apr 14, 21 8:15 am  · 
1  · 

FZJ - by expecting for us tell you how and where you went wrong you're being demanding. Expecting us to explain this to you in two hours, at 9:30 pm (time zones) makes you a inconsiderate asshole. I'm seriously thinking of emailing this discussion to your professor.

Apr 14, 21 10:10 am  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

I wasn't expecting but hoping for help. Go ahead and tell them - I'm sure they'll be impressed that I joined a forum and asked for help. They'll be able to read that no one did the work but guided me.


Apr 14, 21 11:32 am  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

Non Sequitur - I do draw but it's difficult to travel and visit buildings. but hopefully what I've done is fine. time will tell


Apr 14, 21 11:34 am  · 
 · 

FZJ - Why didn't you ask John and classmates at MIT for help?

Apr 14, 21 5:45 pm  · 
 · 
rcz1001

"Where is it incorrect? Thanks" I don't work for you. Come back with how well or poorly you did and the feedback (written and/or verbal) as to what you did correctly and/or incorrectly.

Apr 14, 21 10:45 pm  · 
 · 
rcz1001

When you are on breaks like summer break or something, I *might* be willing to help you learn the concepts better by you practicing diagraming load-paths and so forth on some simpler buildings which I got some drawing sets in PDF and so forth which would help you understand the concepts better and improve on how to communicate loads. Others can 'grade' you by evaluating what you did right or wrong or how to improve. 

Think of it as a form of tutoring but you have to put the effort into learning, studying, etc. We have real-life jobs and all and can't dedicate ourselves to you other than maybe pointing things out in whatever way they are going to package their responses be it snarky and all. We aren't a school and we aren't getting paid so don't expect nice and gentle behavior. 

I think you are going to come out of the class with some weak spots that you should try to shore up some of it (at the least) before going further. NONE of us has to do any of this to help you. I just don't think trying to shoehorn it while you are loaded with classes would be realistic. I hope that makes sense to you.

Apr 15, 21 4:15 am  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

anyway, the work is done. the drawings were only a small part of the work, but I'm sure I'll find out when its marked if it right or not. thanks for the help. 

Apr 14, 21 12:25 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

believe it or not, big schools are competitive and the students don’t like helping each other. 


I should’ve asked for help from the lecturers but all classes are on zoom and teams, so it’s not the same as approaching them after class and asking questions. 

Apr 14, 21 6:09 pm  · 
 · 

That's a bs excuse for not asking your professor and classmates for help.

My first year class had over 250 students, 30 where admitted to the architecture program.  We helped each other all the time.

I think you don't like having to ask for help because of your ego.  You're going to have to get over that if you want to actually practice architecture.  You'll be asking other for help all the time in the real world. 

Apr 14, 21 6:42 pm  · 
2  · 
rcz1001

Full of sh-t excuses. I've been at a school where the architecture program has a large number of students in the program. Sure, some students are competitive or even standoff-ish. But guess what, no reason to not ask help and willing to help. It's called trading information. At the end, you all are trying to graduate, right?

Apr 14, 21 8:40 pm  · 
2  · 
F-Z-J

well, that’s your experience and this is mine - we didn’t go to the same school, nor are we the same generation. 


Believe what you want. I’m not interested in debating. 

Apr 15, 21 12:24 am  · 
 · 
rcz1001

Who is this in response to? Chad or me? Do you seriously think your generation's experience is that unique or that your school is particularly unique in terms of studio culture. Are students in your classes actually being graded on a curve? If not, then there is no reason why you can't attempt to collaborate instead of playing non-sense competition against each other when it is not necessary for the assignment. I've seen the same mistaken attitude by 1st year students thinking it's all about competition because they come into it thinking because it was a competitive process for admissions that it is all about competitiveness with every assignment. Enough with that thinking. You are already in the program, set aside competition a little and work together as fellow students trying to graduate. Do you think that architectural practice is all about competition? It's not and guess what, it isn't that different in the UK or any other developed country in the world. The competition maybe between firms for procuring work but its about being collaborative within your firm. Otherwise, no one works together and guess what, the biggest projects literally can't possibly be done by a single sole person. Guess what, that's true in just about every country on the planet. It's time you understand that there is no "I" in TEAM and yes there is an "I" in DICKHEAD. If you can't work together as a team with your project team member, you are a DICKHEAD to not just your team but the project clients and everyone else. Is that understood? Yes or No.

Apr 15, 21 4:31 am  · 
2  · 
F-Z-J

I’m pretty sure I said that there’s a culture of competitiveness at the school (as in it’s the school - I’m clearly all for asking for help when needed), which doesn’t exist in other schools - one of the lecturers confirmed it. Furthermore, one of the other students literally said they won’t help each other and it is the case across to year. Ask tduds and he’ll confirm it.

Apr 15, 21 7:19 am  · 
 · 

Ok - tduds. Care to confirm FZJ's assertion?

Apr 15, 21 8:54 am  · 
 · 

FZJ - so you think your experience is special because you're experiencing some competition? My first year we had 250 students competing for 30 spots in the architectural program.

What you're going though isn't unique.  It doesn't give you permission to be an entitled wanker.  Work with your profs and classmates and put your ego aside.  

Apr 15, 21 9:05 am  · 
 ·  1
Wood Guy

This is actually an interesting, bigger conversation. Things HAVE changed in the 10-40 years since we were in school. Kids are used to crowd-sourcing everything online. For better or worse, it's just how things are done now. Most of us crowd-source things like what product to buy, how to fix things, where to eat, what to watch, etc.. While I got help from classmates--I wouldn't have made it through school otherwise--the internet was just becoming a thing at that point. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good thing; I've noticed that young people really struggle with in-person interactions and collaborations. But to some degree I think FZJ is simply acting the way he/she was trained to act. And clearly, while inclined to take advice from random internet strangers when it comes to their homework assignment, they don't want to take advice regarding their own programing.

Apr 15, 21 10:05 am  · 
2  · 

I do understand that Wood. I have no problem with crowd sourcing. My issue is the entitlement FZJ has shown. He / she has basically asked us to do their assignment for them and been rude when we wouldn't.

Apr 15, 21 1:32 pm  · 
3  ·  1
rcz1001

"I’m pretty sure I said that there’s a culture of competitiveness at the school (as in it’s the school - I’m clearly all for asking for help when needed), which doesn’t exist in other schools - one of the lecturers confirmed it. Furthermore, one of the other students literally said they won’t help each other and it is the case across to year. Ask tduds and he’ll confirm it." 

 Tduds mentioned Mr. Ochsendorf, a professor at MIT. If the school is in fact the architecture department at MIT, I can tell you that MIT isn't that unique in that it projects some notion of competitiveness for admissions into their program. 

However, all NAAB accredited programs (to varying degrees) attempt to foster collaborative learning because it been a NAAB accreditation requirement for a while and much of modern-day learning outcomes standards of any academic program in the last 15 years are fostering collaboration and teamwork to solve problems. It's the way things are. FZJ, you're justifying the "competitiveness" culture as the reason for not working collaboratively with other students makes absolutely no sense. That makes little sense. 

It sounds like a justification of anti-social and egotistical behavior than it is about anything real. I can contact the university director and professors about whether the school fosters collaboration, teamwork, etc., or not and about how they do it. In fact, I can contact any architecture program about it, not just those in the U.S. After all, we are in the internet age for the past 30 years.

Apr 15, 21 2:28 pm  · 
1  ·  1
rcz1001

I agree with you Wood Guy. Now, FZJ, there is a difference between crowdsourcing information and asking people to do your homework for you. There are ethics about how to go about asking for information. For example: Don't ask people for information without doing diligent efforts of researching online and using the search engine to find resources to study online. You are a student, therefore, your homework is for you to do not for other people to do for you. You might ask what books or information may be helpful for you to study in order to do the homework which means explaining what you need to do. I'm sure people will be willing to give you pointers to resources to read or study that can help you but not do the work for you. In addition, attempt to do the homework before asking those who are not fellow students. Ask your classmates before asking the rest of the world who is more disconnected from your academic program than your fellow students in the class as you are.

Apr 15, 21 2:42 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

It's been 15 years since I took Ochsendorf's course, so maybe the world has changed, but I remember my time at MIT as the most non-competitive and collaborative environment I've ever been a part of - both within the Arch department and throughout the larger institute.

Apr 15, 21 4:01 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

Perhaps it's worth examining whether you're asking for collaboration or simply answers. You tend to make more friends with the former.

Apr 15, 21 4:02 pm  · 
2  · 
rcz1001

From what I can tell, MIT is fairly collaborative and since you took courses from Ochsendorf, I doubt he has changed that much in 15 years. Just like I have had instructors whom I took courses 15+ years ago and they still conduct their classes similarly. Sure, they may modify their course curriculum but they don't usually change so radically. Collaborative learning had by now become a common norm in education compared to say, 25+ years ago. 

Since you been there, I doubt it has changed that much. They may update their technology but that doesn't mean they will have changed their core institutional values. Looking at this page: https://web.mit.edu/campus-life/ - between your testimony and the web page, I think the FZJ is FULL OF SH*T about the lack of collaboration which I think things are more closer to how things were when you were there than it is different. 

I think FZJ's failure to get students willing to help him has a lot to do with FZJ manner, approach, etc. Something that FZJ is not saying. Yes, I'm confident even back then there were individual students that never socially worked well with other students and never get help and for any number of reasons had problems getting people willing to help them. It's that way at the University of Oregon and even at Clatsop Community College from my experience. Sure there are also standoff-ish students at any college. That's life. 

Thank you for sharing your insight on MIT which I can not personally say I have experienced on-campus and regular course taking experience from that college but thanks for confirming my gut instincts which I felt were suspicious comments from FZJ which I don't think really represents the university. If you like to share more about your experience with Professor Ochsendorf so I can get a better sense of the person's character and teaching ethics, that will be nice.

Apr 15, 21 4:57 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

thanks, Wood Guy! I have asked for help from class mates previously and I’ve been refused. So, coming here was an option. 

Apr 15, 21 10:09 am  · 
 · 
rcz1001

There must be something you aren't telling us. How did you ask for help? If it is like how you asked us, then yeah.... they refused. How were you with your fellow classmates the previous term. Have you considered asking students in the architecture program who had taken the class last year or the year before for any insight they may have on how to do the assignment? Current students may be too overwhelmed with the assignment to want to help because they don't know how to. I suspect that contacting the other students in the school maybe difficult than it would be on-campus learning. In which case, you could have fielded a similar question for insights and pointers which you can use to do the assignment but no one here will do the homework for you.

Apr 15, 21 2:49 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

​I don’t have the time to reply to you
. I came here for help. That’s it. Thanks

Apr 15, 21 3:00 pm  · 
 · 
F-Z-J

I appreciate the help that was given but
it’s time I move onto my other assignments

Apr 15, 21 3:01 pm  · 
 · 
rcz1001

lol... you have no time to reply but made two replies. 

You do realize that you can reply whenever you have time, right? It isn't like you have to make a reply when you don't have time to reply. Get ready for your next assignment and keep your focus on doing your assignments.

Apr 15, 21 3:33 pm  · 
1  · 

I figured that FZJ was being dishonest and probably couldn't get help elsewhere. FZJ has run away now because we're not going to help her/ him anymore. I still think FZJ's proff would be upset to learn how they got their assignment done . . .

Apr 16, 21 12:05 pm  · 
 · 
rcz1001

Yeah.

Apr 17, 21 2:52 am  · 
 · 
James Bragg

Haters gonna hate. Trollers gonna troll.

Apr 19, 21 12:47 pm  · 
 · 
caramelhighrise

This whole thread has been a rollercoaster of emotions. I don't have $.02 to add, just saying it's been extremely entertaining.

Apr 15, 21 11:19 pm  · 
2  · 

A good guide of how NOT to ask for help. I find it funny that the OP basically just copied the diagrams I posted. Too bad I got a C in structures, 20 years ago. I don't think they will get a good grade on this assignment . . .

Apr 16, 21 12:07 pm  · 
3  · 
tintt

I hope they come back and tell you what grade you got!

Apr 16, 21 12:10 pm  · 
3  · 
rcz1001

Chad, even with the ones with comedic text, it was more coherent. Although there are ways to do it better for purpose of the assignment, it is important to communicate clearly. I'm guessing FZJ is going to get what he/she deserves.

Apr 16, 21 12:33 pm  · 
 · 
joseffischer

I'm definitely curious as to how they do as well... I assume they'll get an A or B... I don't know the prof or MIT, but this has got to be a structure's 1-week assignment, right? We had those for a few buildings around town, quick turnarounds, prove you can visit a site, analyze it, and show some reasonable understanding of structural concepts through diagram. Homework was maybe 20% of the grade with 10 or so of these types of assignments and 10 more plug-and-chug formula type assignments, so we're talking 1% of final grade of a 3-credit hour course?

Apr 16, 21 12:51 pm  · 
 · 

I hope I got a passing grade on that assignment! :P

Apr 16, 21 1:09 pm  · 
5  · 
rcz1001

As I take a look at the academic calendar system of MIT, the Spring Semester began back in February so there should have been ample time to do this and there would have been a few assignments like this assignment but on simpler buildings. Therefore, if the student already did two or three assignments like this one on buildings with more conventional design principles, FZJ should be better prepared and doing this assignment better. This would be a 1 to 2-week assignment which should be sufficient in doing the assignment.

PS: Chad, I hope you got a passing grade :-) ....  but don't expect it because FZJ possibly still f---ed it up..... oh well. 


Apr 16, 21 3:17 pm  · 
 · 
caramelhighrise

While we're all helping each other out with structures, can someone please find a way to support a roof for me. The span is probably about 200' and I only have 14" to work with, including the lights and ductwork. This is due tomorrow, thanks in advance.

Apr 16, 21 3:25 pm  · 
2  · 
Wood Guy

Caramel, I could describe what to do but you probably want drawings too, right? (Hint: it involves a sky hook.)

Apr 16, 21 3:29 pm  · 
2  · 
rcz1001

To meet all the above conditions, maybe a cable-supported (suspended) roof.

Apr 16, 21 3:38 pm  · 
 · 
caramelhighrise

I hoped my sarcasm would be met with more rage. I'll think of a more annoying question next time, maybe something about live and dead loads.

Apr 16, 21 3:57 pm  · 
1  · 
tintt

Space frame.

Edit: Oh wait, 14 inches. lol. Didn't see that part.


Apr 17, 21 12:02 pm  · 
 · 

Come on FZJ - I want to know what grade I, er you got on your assignment.

Apr 19, 21 12:20 pm  · 
1  · 

Block this user


Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?

  • ×Search in: