I believe typically the whole folding system is hung (because of the weight of the doors) so the header beam, in addition to spanning, also has to be sized for very little LL deflection to keep the doors operational.
This isn't correct. Most all NanaWall systems are floor (bottom) supported) and the top track is only a guide. The opening is the same for all systems (costs, etc.) but when the panels are closed (and to open and close) is the difference between a NanaWall and others.
Mar 9, 21 12:07 pm ·
·
mthomas
Not necessarily for replacement of standard 10' typical sliding openings. In your typical slider, you'll only get 5' or under total opening. With a small 3 panel folding system, you're going to get roughly 9' total opening within the same opening. Most of these systems are under 8k. Sure, more expensive than a cheap (or even decent slider), but you're getting a large raw opening and these days, it's nice to have natural ventilation right?
ditto b3ta’s comment. We have some “money is no issue” type clients and even then these types of system causes them to have second thoughts. If they can’t afford it, find a clever workaround that gets you similar effect but it’s a little more complicated than just picking out a product in a glossy catalogue.
Greetings. It's much more than a glossy brochure. We're aware that everyone thinks NanaWall is the most expensive and that's far from the truth. As we know, all jobs are different but on many projects where we are put up against our competitors, we've not only come out cheaper, but we're the better product too. Everything comes into play and not just price—although we know that looms large—factor in long term durability, easy of use, choices, quality, and testing (water, air, thermal, etc.). Yes, I am with NanaWall and would gladly be open to any counterpoints.
That's about what I've ended up doing in similar situations. Also alternated pairs of French doors with fixed lites to cut the cost a little more while still getting the "mostly" open feel.
Mostly. Sure, that's an option but you're comparing apples and oranges (IMO). You'll have all of those structural posts and then have to unlock and open multiple sets of doors. Those multiple sets of doors also increase security risk points too as each door is a weak point. With products such as ours, each set of panels sends 1" stainless steel locking rods into both the sill and the head jam, creating an incredibly secure wall.
Mar 9, 21 12:37 pm ·
·
mthomas
I'd also have to imagine that there's the cost to trim out (6) openings over (1) would be an additional cost point... (general defense for all large opening glass wall vendors here ;)
A few years ago, I was pleasantly surprised by the price point, construction quality, and aesthetics of Eclipse C3 aluminum accordion folding door systems in a civic project. These doors were installed as a CM-initiated VE suggestion from Nanawall. My (hazy) recollection is they cost about one-third less than Nanawall. I also preferred their more slender sightlines as well, as they do not have the unappealing middle astragal that were part of commercial Nanawall systems.
Eclipse is near Vancouver B.C., and has residential systems as well. My recollection is they are gravity loaded, but regardless, as mentioned above, they need a stiff header (usually hot rolled steel) to meet defection criteria.
Good luck!
Feb 23, 21 5:46 am ·
·
t a z
Yeah, to clarify my gross generalization above, if the door height is short enough they can be floor loaded. Probably a more likely
residential scenario.
Feb 23, 21 11:46 am ·
·
proto
+1 to Eclipse, but I believe they don't sell direct - you go through a custom door builder...(& not sure I believe 1/3 less than Nana as a general rule, just my $.02).
Bottom loaded is avail from Western Window Systems too, but the local reseller steered me away from those for any exterior installation.
NanaWall is bottom supported (loaded). In addition, we have 10 different folding glass walls. The unit you were referring to is the SL70 which has thicker profiles which at the time, was used for achieving greater heights. Since then, we have new systems out that are the thinnest profiles in the industry while still achieving higher heights. As I noted above, we are price competitive but have better product that lasts longer, is better tested (all independent testing - not our numbers), better features, and most important, having over 10 folding products allows us to better meet customer requirements at the right price point. All that needs to be done is to work with us. Most of the time, it's just assumed that we're more expensive. There are times we won't win, but you won't know until you try - don't believe "word on the street".
I've priced out La Cantina folding doors and they're usually a bit less than Nanawall. Marvin and other brands now offer folding door systems as well. Plan on roughly $5-8K per slab.
This goes the other way too. We've done extensive price analysis and it's a mix but also dependent on specs, requirements, etc... Marvin's folding door has really thick profiles. At the IBS show, they were telling buildings to not put hardwood floors within a foot of the doors - not something you need to worry about with NanaWall. We start about $700/linear foot or so...
One potential alternative: bi-parting pocket doors. I'm designing a project now that will have a 14' exterior opening with 4 panels that disappear into the walls. My client originally wanted folding panels but they take up a lot of space and require frequent adjustment. The sliding doors cost a bit less. We will probably go with a Loewen unit but possibly La Cantina.
Sierra Pacific also has multi-slide, bi-fold walls, and large pivot door systems. No idea about cost.
edit; it who I'd use in upper tier residential since they can also handle the entire window package as well which means a single source warranty. I've also been happy with their tech support services mixing and matching systems as well as integrating custom features like solar shade devices and fins.
I just installed my first Sierra Pacific windows and was impressed. Their H3 line. When possible I like to use the products I spec and these passed all of my tests.
Depending on where you live the structural design for the opening can be a substantial part of the cost. We did one home where the window / door unit was approx $75,000.00 for a 28' wide unit but the additional engineering and structure to create the opening was another $60,000.0 ( footings, concrete, steel beam and associated framing )
That's insane. For most, it is more like the cost of double garage door header (16'-18' wide) if you don't do anything fancy like a column-less 90 degree corner.
Feb 23, 21 4:38 pm ·
·
whistler
Well we have a snow load of 250 lbs / sf so the overall structural costs are always higher here. The price of steel beams increases exponentially as you go from 16' to 28' as most systems require minimal deflection so the tolerance for the steel beam is significant. Also was on a site with some dodgy soils so the footings were up sized massively.
Sorry, didn't mean to come across as condescending. Most residential ones I've seen or dealt with aren't that wide. Commercial, like restaurant/bar with curbside seating I've done similar and it is expensive to open up that much wall. And you touched on something else; deflection matters. On a commercial one I did for a rooftop amenity 'ballroom', I cheated... two headers; one to hold the building structural loads up high, the other was just to hang the collapsible wall set lower. The building load one could deflect independently, so the wall one was designed with very minimal deflection and only the nanawall loading on it. With shorter spans, like residential scale, its less of issue.
One of the trickier details is the floor track drainage. It's basically like a gutter trough with weeps, but if you have a flush patio slab, you need a underdrain collector and structural accommodation similar to a trench drain. Even when top hung, that bottom rail has a pin and rollers to resist lateral wind. I sort of prefer the pivot door style since it is simpler if you can live with the floor space loss in the open position.
Also surprised no one has mentioned glass overhead doors. There are variations on that as well. I sort of like the single panel that lift and tilt creating a canopy.
Reminds me of the hydraulic lift door we tried to use on a school project. The manufacturer said around 60K per door. Got chopped off during rebid VE. The door can be single panel or bi-fold. Very good for retail if you ask me.
Affordable folding and accordion doors systems, Do they even exist?
Hi I'm building a simple modern home and been getting all architects to tell me that the folding doors systems are very expensive.
I'm wondering if anyone know of an affordable brand that still good and looks decent.
Example attached is the style I'm looking for.
Yeah, even if you use something other than Nanawall, it's still pricey as hell. The structure is a beast, so it's not just the doors.
I believe typically the whole folding system is hung (because of the weight of the doors) so the header beam, in addition to spanning, also has to be sized for very little LL deflection to keep the doors operational.
This isn't correct. Most all NanaWall systems are floor (bottom) supported) and the top track is only a guide. The opening is the same for all systems (costs, etc.) but when the panels are closed (and to open and close) is the difference between a NanaWall and others.
Not necessarily for replacement of standard 10' typical sliding openings. In your typical slider, you'll only get 5' or under total opening. With a small 3 panel folding system, you're going to get roughly 9' total opening within the same opening. Most of these systems are under 8k. Sure, more expensive than a cheap (or even decent slider), but you're getting a large raw opening and these days, it's nice to have natural ventilation right?
ditto b3ta’s comment. We have some “money is no issue” type clients and even then these types of system causes them to have second thoughts. If they can’t afford it, find a clever workaround that gets you similar effect but it’s a little more complicated than just picking out a product in a glossy catalogue.
Greetings. It's much more than a glossy brochure. We're aware that everyone thinks NanaWall is the most expensive and that's far from the truth. As we know, all jobs are different but on many projects where we are put up against our competitors, we've not only come out cheaper, but we're the better product too. Everything comes into play and not just price—although we know that looms large—factor in long term durability, easy of use, choices, quality, and testing (water, air, thermal, etc.). Yes, I am with NanaWall and would gladly be open to any counterpoints.
6 sets of french doors?
That's about what I've ended up doing in similar situations. Also alternated pairs of French doors with fixed lites to cut the cost a little more while still getting the "mostly" open feel.
Mostly. Sure, that's an option but you're comparing apples and oranges (IMO). You'll have all of those structural posts and then have to unlock and open multiple sets of doors. Those multiple sets of doors also increase security risk points too as each door is a weak point. With products such as ours, each set of panels sends 1" stainless steel locking rods into both the sill and the head jam, creating an incredibly secure wall.
I'd also have to imagine that there's the cost to trim out (6) openings over (1) would be an additional cost point... (general defense for all large opening glass wall vendors here ;)
@OP, the architects here agree with the architects you’ve been talking to
Yeah, "folding doors" and "affordable" have never been uttered in the same sentence, for a reason. Best of luck.
Yes @t a z
A few years ago, I was pleasantly surprised by the price point, construction quality, and aesthetics of Eclipse C3 aluminum accordion folding door systems in a civic project. These doors were installed as a CM-initiated VE suggestion from Nanawall. My (hazy) recollection is they cost about one-third less than Nanawall. I also preferred their more slender sightlines as well, as they do not have the unappealing middle astragal that were part of commercial Nanawall systems.
https://www.eclipsearchitectur...
Eclipse is near Vancouver B.C., and has residential systems as well. My recollection is they are gravity loaded, but regardless, as mentioned above, they need a stiff header (usually hot rolled steel) to meet defection criteria.
Good luck!
Yeah, to clarify my gross generalization above, if the door height is short enough they can be floor loaded. Probably a more likely residential scenario.
+1 to Eclipse, but I believe they don't sell direct - you go through a custom door builder...(& not sure I believe 1/3 less than Nana as a general rule, just my $.02).
Bottom loaded is avail from Western Window Systems too, but the local reseller steered me away from those for any exterior installation.
Series 9500 Folding door [click on pdf under folding door section] - https://www.westernwindowsyste...
NanaWall is bottom supported (loaded). In addition, we have 10 different folding glass walls. The unit you were referring to is the SL70 which has thicker profiles which at the time, was used for achieving greater heights. Since then, we have new systems out that are the thinnest profiles in the industry while still achieving higher heights. As I noted above, we are price competitive but have better product that lasts longer, is better tested (all independent testing - not our numbers), better features, and most important, having over 10 folding products allows us to better meet customer requirements at the right price point. All that needs to be done is to work with us. Most of the time, it's just assumed that we're more expensive. There are times we won't win, but you won't know until you try - don't believe "word on the street".
I've priced out La Cantina folding doors and they're usually a bit less than Nanawall. Marvin and other brands now offer folding door systems as well. Plan on roughly $5-8K per slab.
This goes the other way too. We've done extensive price analysis and it's a mix but also dependent on specs, requirements, etc... Marvin's folding door has really thick profiles. At the IBS show, they were telling buildings to not put hardwood floors within a foot of the doors - not something you need to worry about with NanaWall. We start about $700/linear foot or so...
To add to the list (for future reference):
Panda Wall markets themselves as the "affordable" folding wall option but I'm not sure about domestic availability.
https://www.panda-windows.com/
One potential alternative: bi-parting pocket doors. I'm designing a project now that will have a 14' exterior opening with 4 panels that disappear into the walls. My client originally wanted folding panels but they take up a lot of space and require frequent adjustment. The sliding doors cost a bit less. We will probably go with a Loewen unit but possibly La Cantina.
Sierra Pacific also has multi-slide, bi-fold walls, and large pivot door systems. No idea about cost.
edit; it who I'd use in upper tier residential since they can also handle the entire window package as well which means a single source warranty. I've also been happy with their tech support services mixing and matching systems as well as integrating custom features like solar shade devices and fins.
I just installed my first Sierra Pacific windows and was impressed. Their H3 line. When possible I like to use the products I spec and these passed all of my tests.
Depending on where you live the structural design for the opening can be a substantial part of the cost. We did one home where the window / door unit was approx $75,000.00 for a 28' wide unit but the additional engineering and structure to create the opening was another $60,000.0 ( footings, concrete, steel beam and associated framing )
That's insane. For most, it is more like the cost of double garage door header (16'-18' wide) if you don't do anything fancy like a column-less 90 degree corner.
Well we have a snow load of 250 lbs / sf so the overall structural costs are always higher here. The price of steel beams increases exponentially as you go from 16' to 28' as most systems require minimal deflection so the tolerance for the steel beam is significant. Also was on a site with some dodgy soils so the footings were up sized massively.
Sorry, didn't mean to come across as condescending. Most residential ones I've seen or dealt with aren't that wide. Commercial, like restaurant/bar with curbside seating I've done similar and it is expensive to open up that much wall. And you touched on something else; deflection matters. On a commercial one I did for a rooftop amenity 'ballroom', I cheated... two headers; one to hold the building structural loads up high, the other was just to hang the collapsible wall set lower. The building load one could deflect independently, so the wall one was designed with very minimal deflection and only the nanawall loading on it. With shorter spans, like residential scale, its less of issue.
One of the trickier details is the floor track drainage. It's basically like a gutter trough with weeps, but if you have a flush patio slab, you need a underdrain collector and structural accommodation similar to a trench drain. Even when top hung, that bottom rail has a pin and rollers to resist lateral wind. I sort of prefer the pivot door style since it is simpler if you can live with the floor space loss in the open position.
Also surprised no one has mentioned glass overhead doors. There are variations on that as well. I sort of like the single panel that lift and tilt creating a canopy.
Reminds me of the hydraulic lift door we tried to use on a school project. The manufacturer said around 60K per door. Got chopped off during rebid VE. The door can be single panel or bi-fold. Very good for retail if you ask me.
https://www.crowndoors.com/
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