just had an offer accepted on a new house. Plan is to live in the new and rent out the old. Old house costs 23k a year to own. Not sure exactly what it will rent for, but high estimate is 36k. Should be pretty good monthly cash flow.
Online calc tools say we should make about 1 mill over the next 20 years with this rental. most of that is appreciation assuming we sell at the 20 year mark
Now the government won't be able to repossess my degrees. Is that how this works?
There is some good news for everyone else with outstanding federal loans; with my luck, I'm sure this means that Biden will forgive your loans any day now.
No way NS. I'm already over qualified compared to my peers in the industry. If I went back to school it would be for an MBA or JD because I was going to get out of architecture into something more lucrative. Neither of those options appeals all that much to me.
Biden will forgive as few loans as possible to get the W without helping the majority. Gotta be able to sell your brand to the establishment AND the ignorati, you know.
I’m surprised I’ve not commented on this thread before. I just switched jobs, previous job was PM in a traditional architecture firm and I was at about $75k plus benefits and good bonuses in good years. My new job is in a non-profit and I’m making a bit more but with better benefits and less stress.
But also: husband and I downsized this year and paid off close to $150k in various kinds of debt (student loans, credit cards, business startup costs). It feels soooooo good. We were really living paycheck to paycheck and *barely* keeping all the balls in the air every month until we downsized. Now we have a little extra cash every month and can also pay for our son’s college without too much pain!
2012-2018: Started at a smaller firm (13, grew to 25 while there). 39.5k to start, 401k match, good benefits, profit sharing. Cost of living increase every year, but decent sized bump at each step of movement up (especially at licensure). Ended there around 60k, which ended up being 70-72k with profit sharing bonus. Hit a ceiling growth-wise.
2018: Went to smaller firm (6) for 70k (PM/PA role) because they were promising second in command and varied work compared to former firm. Promises were all lies, bailed after 2 months.
2018 (2 weeks later) - 2021: Larger firm (130), started at 80k (PM/PA role). 401k match was kind of awful, but that insurance was unicorn insurance that I will never again get in this profession and allowed me to take care of things with little to no out of pocket costs. Never had a raise there because they seemed to be on relatively precarious ground the entire time. 2020 rocked them, 4 rounds of layoffs, massive paycut (mine went to 72k), just heard through the grapevine they instituted another paycut and 4 day work week so my intuitions were correct.
2021: Moved to even larger firm (250 and growing) to help diversify my project experience more (also PA/PM role, more PA focused though). 95k not inclusive of bonuses and 401k match, so over 100k total. Everything they promised during interviews has been accurate and I'm really enjoying it.
TL;DR - grew up working class, decade of experience over 100k total compensation, you do have to jump around to get raises and what you want sometimes. Some student loan debt (50k), little bit of CC debt, but I can basically live comfortably and do what I please as far as travel goes, etc... Not buying a Benz or anything, but I've never been a car guy anyway.
I always thought of the AIA compensation reports as an interesting but likely ineffective tool, mostly due to my general belief that the AIA & commercial architecture are pretty different in their mentality, but I must admit I was happy to be wrong. Our office management just did a review of the latest compensation report & is adjusting salaries as a result. I asked for a raise when I became licensed earlier this year so I wasn't expecting anything for a few years but in a "rising tide lifts all boats" moment I'll be receiving another. Way to go AIA, you may change my mind after all.
It's definitely been an interesting year, especially after 2020. If you count the re-instatement of the salary cuts we took in mid-2020, I got 4 raises this year.
Not sure if this is happening throughout the industry or just with my firm, but it really feels like a major 'recalibration' is happening.
Congrats on your raises ... I'm hoping for a major recalibration across the industry. Architecture salaries have not kept up and a recalibration is needed if we want to get younger professionals to consider this a real career and not some type of hobby you can have fun with while you live off accumulated family wealth. Making the profession an attractive career is necessary if we are to be more diverse and inclusive.
Glad to hear folks are getting their proper due. As well as a 'recalibration', I'd say that firm ownership is also doing their very best to hold on to good talent. They likely understand the market and know that a pay bump is a good way to keep people motivated. (It also helps them later on when they say, 'i know your busy, but could you also take on this as well?')
I've been thinking the 2008-10 Great Recession is the reason for why our salaries are getting pumped. Not because of the beneficence of the managerial class, but for the fact there is no one avaliable to do the work. How else can I explain why I'm doing cds, when there is no one else to do the work. Or why I'm so stressed, or angry af? All of the mid-career peeple dropped off the face of the earth, and likely for the better.
100% agree b3ta. The recession did two things: 1) Artificially deflated starting salaries for a cohort of young professionals who are just now realizing that deflation has carried through in their raises for a decade, and 2) Drove a ton of entry-level designers to different industries. And now Those of us who stuck around are entering our prime productivity / earning years and there simply aren't enough of us left to fill the demand.
As an update since the new replies brought it back into the light: I ended up getting bumped about 5k when that second raise rolled around. Started the year at 52k (which is the rate I started at after I graduated) & between licensure and the second raise I'll finish the year at 70k. So up 34% in base salary. My year end bonus went up 66% too, but I don't know for sure if that's a semi permanent bump or a one time larger payment that will go back down to what the two previous years had been next year. Obviously those depend on how business is going.
When this happens I find myself torn between being happy for the deserved raise, and disappointed in the unrealized earnings during the period of underpayment.
Congrats, Shellarchitect! I've raised my billing rate 15-20% each year for several years now, and just bumped again. I'm booked for 2022 so the new rate will be for projects starting in 2023. I like to think that I'm not money-motivated, but when some projects pay 30% or more better per hour than another, it's easy to prioritize the higher-paying one.
Our bonuses for salaried staff is typically based on how much unpaid overtime you do. I don't do more than 40 hours of overtime a year. Last year I did five hours of OT and still got a $1k bonus.
The firm does pay well and gives out raises on a regular basis. They just don't give out big bonuses.
Gotcha, our office operates on the opposite end of the spectrum. We're typically a 40 hours a week office barring a fire drill. Frequent raises are rarely given out (this year was an exception), but our year end bonuses are much larger than average. I could probably make more in base pay working somewhere else, but the bonus structure puts me above what I'd make elsewhere.
All the other offices I've work with have had that same view of overtime. Hell, the first firm I worked with required you to get permission to do overtime - even if you're salaried. Their view was that overtime burns people out and burnout is bad.
I'm in a similar boat as RJ. Below-average base salary (though improving this year) with very generous bonus / dividends that more than offset the base. My bonus this year was as much as my entire salary in 2010.
Dec 15, 21 6:53 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
end of year bonus in my office are flat 1k loonies regardless of good/bad year but we also payout 100% OT to non-management staff... so the bonus is a thankyou, not a compensation for hours worked beyond the 37.5/week req.
Dec 15, 21 7:31 pm ·
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RJ87
Salaried employees are allowed to ebb & flow with what the work needs. 44 hours here, 36 hours there. But the general expectation is to keep it reasonable. Hourly employees are required to be green lit for OT.
& tduds i'm in a similar boat. Even though it comes every year I try to use it as an infusion of savings / investment money rather than a part of my normal budget. Mine this year was roughly 28% of my salary. That was a higher percentage than I'd received in the past, typically it was more towards 20%. I'd rather get that money throughout the year, but that's not the business model.
Starting with the pandemic i've been doing much more side stuff. Mostly quick renderings or resolving zba issues. total is around $4,000. Intent was to be my own personal spending money but never seems to work out that way.
I wouldn't mind doing renderings on the side. Unfortunately there are only a few architectural firms in my area and I think it would be a conflict of interest to do local work.
I work with one of the local DDAs to provide renderings for proposed facade updates. $250 per quicky sketchup rendering, I think 6 this year. I've also been helping a developer who buys and rehabs properties. They all seem to have problems that take a little diplomacy to resolve. He wouldn't really need me if they were local or had better command of the english language. He's chinese (I think) and his local employees are way to dumb to handle this sort of stuff.
What credit cards do y'all use? I've always used a standard $0 fee travel rewards card since I started college, but I finally started paying attention to the points system & have found that I'm not getting much in the way of "perks". Considering changing / adding another second line of credit that aligns more with my spending habits, which is mostly dining outside of the usual bills.
Feb 2, 22 5:48 pm ·
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SneakyPete
We have a miles card, use it for gifting flights to family who can't afford to join us.
I ended up getting an amex gold card. It has a fee but half of it I'll end up getting back in uber credits I know I'll use & it gave 4x points on dining / groceries, which is my largest non rent / utilities expense. The points conversion for travel rewards seems to be the most efficient so I'll probably end up using them on flights & the like when it comes time to cash in.
Feb 3, 22 11:10 am ·
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SneakyPete
Uber credits? I'd walk before using that trash company.
Miles card for airline I fly - at one point had a higher tier to have lounge access each trip [nice on business trips to be able to work and snack before boarding]
I'm interested in having a bit of a discussion around ESOPs in terms of employee views and benefits. Most of what I see about ESOP businesses is surrounding the exit strategy for the owner as they near retirement and that while ESOPs are employee-owned, they don't really offer employees a lot of control. While related, I'm more interested in hearing what the benefits are to the employee.
Is it simply value that grows until they decide to leave the company or retire and is then paid out? Is this typically at the expense of other retirement planning/benefits offered by firms like 401k matching?
While perhaps not having a more involved role in decision making as perhaps you might in a cooperative model, do employees feel a greater sense of ownership in an ESOP that impacts how you view loyalty to the firm, or your work ethic overall?
Does working at an ESOP seem more long-term than a stepping stone in an overall career trajectory?
If you're reading this and have no idea what I'm talking about, these two articles by Niall Patrick Walsh give a decent overview and background:
Also, if you've worked for a firm with an ESOP and ended up leaving, I'm curious how you ended up getting the pay out of your shares; rollover into an IRA, lump sum cash payment, etc.? Reasoning for that method?
RedRover, Do you think there's roughly the same turnover at your firm compared to other non-ESOP firms ... just extended to the 5-year mark when employees are 100% vested? Do you find the lower salary to be made up in the stocks? Do you get profit sharing on top of this that helps make up the difference in salary?
Aug 1, 22 12:40 pm ·
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joseffischer
This is a hard one to calculate/value, but I'll repeat what you already said above, as it aligns with what I've been told. Disclaimer, I've only worked at one ESOP company and it didn't even count because the year I was hired they were doing away with it. You mention its consideration for owners as an exit strategy and that is largely what I've been told. Considering that, one must raise the question, why do the owners need an unconventional exit strategy? Where are the usual suspects ready to take the reigns, buy up a firm, or otherwise replace the current retiring owners? With that in mind, and talking to friends who have worked at ESOPs for quite a while, albeit not at a high-level. The numbers don't seem to work out compared to just getting better salaries, bonuses, and 401k matches. Companies that are overall mediocre and otherwise would disappear without current ownership, often due to lack of succession planning, seem to fall on the ESOP model to squeeze out that last punch of retirement money for the owners by charging their employees to work for them. It's not the ESOP model that is the problem, but the idea that more often than not, the model is used by unprofitable companies.
Aug 1, 22 2:25 pm ·
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betonbrut
Spot on from my perspective. ESOP or other ownership structure aside, the inherent profitability and long term outlook on the firm are more important things to consider if evaluating your potential investment (time and/or money) into the business.
Good points and a good reminder that just because a business is employee owned doesn't mean it's a good business and will turn a profit. Also notable that profit isn't the sole metric for determining the valuation of a company and subsequent stock price.
jeseffischer, do you know why the company you worked for decided to do away with it?
Aug 1, 22 8:11 pm ·
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RJ87
I don't work for an ESOP, but we do get additional "profit sharing" contributions to our 401k plans. We get pretty large cash bonuses every year as well, but the reason I put profit sharing in quotes is because one it's directly put into our 401k which I think is malarkey & two the only reason they do it is because the owner pays fewer taxes. If they made less money doing it we wouldn't have it. I imagine ESOP is much the same, if the math didn't work in their advantage no one would do it.
Aug 2, 22 9:38 am ·
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joseffischer
Everyday Architect yes lol, it became quite profitable and the new majority stake employees wanted to go back to a business model where 10% of the profits weren't being given in a structured way to capitol E employees. They'd rather decide at their graces and leisure how much bonus money they'd dole out in a good year. At the time it didn't phase me at all, even if I had been with the company for long, but their were PM level people politicking that were very upset they were outvoted.
RJ87, There are definite advantages for the business and those are well publicized, I'm wondering more about the advantages for the employee and things they may want to be aware of if looking at making a move to a company with an ESOP. Those things aren't quite as easily found. From what I'm finding though it can basically be a portion of a retirement portfolio in addition to a more typical 401k and other investments.
joseffischer, Gotta keep the distinctions between the "haves" and the "have nots" I guess so the hierarchy is clearly established ... sounds toxic AF. One of the things that I think appeals to me is that even the "lower" employees can feel a sense of ownership in an ESOP if it's set up the right way. Hopefully that helps them think of their work differently than just looking busy and punching a time card. Knowing that the overall profitability can come back to you in a more direct and transparent manner would help with that I think, but I've never worked in such a place.
anyone getting raises lately? My old firm was bought be a much larger firm back in March, I plan on asking for a significant raise during my upcoming review. 10% for inflation plus I was a little underpaid coming in as I went from a 10 person firm to 500+
I turned down an 18% raise to take another job (really it was an immediate 10% with additional guaranteed raise next year that would have put it just over 18% total).
I'd be careful assuming a larger firm equals higher pay. That hasn't always been the case for me in my previous experience. In fact, the largest firm I've worked for has a bit of a reputation of underpaying compared to their peers. Even then, you'll probably be able to negotiate to be paid comparative to others in the larger firm which I'm guessing will be more than the smaller firm could afford. Good luck.
Our office's annual reviews keep getting pushed back as ownership needs "more time" to consider... consider what, I'm not sure, but I'll certainly ask whenever my time comes up.
^Profit share & management but no equity. I don’t have an in on the finances.
Oct 15, 22 8:07 am ·
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bowling_ball
NS, there's possibly a concern about the billing projections to the end of the year or longer (hello recession). One of the things I hadn't considered before being in an ownership position doing salary reviews is that while employees' cost of living is going up with inflation, you're getting paid with dollars that were likely negotiated years ago. Our stupid fee-competitive system means it's really really difficult to keep up with sudden changes in the strength of the economy. Just my unsolicited experience talking.
Yes, I did get a 10% raise around the start of the year. Guess I prob seem greedy based on how much my income has increased in the pass few years, but I also work pretty damn hard, albeit in brief spurts. Perhaps more importantly I’ve noticed and pointed out that my projects generally don’t have the problems that others in the office do.
Jul 28, 23 4:45 pm ·
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3tk
COLA - though not the SS one, but some "industry average" that gets pitched by partners + evening out each band in the firm. Nothing impactful to anyone [partners all seem to be getting vacation property and new cars...]
Announced today US SS getting an 8.7% COLA. So all our fees should go up 9% too right? and raises of 9% minimum should be expected for the working since the non-working get that too? Gotta keep this Ponzi scheme going somehow.
We had raise increases recently, definitely not like last year, raise ranges varied about 5% across the board, honestly at the lower levels most of the raise variance served to balance out pay gaps. Take it as you will, but some people who may have been strong negotiators and/or actively better candidates when hired haven't necessarily continued to show their edge compared to others who through training have caught up and should, in my opinion, be paid equal to their peers.
Separately, our average raise looks like it kept up with COLA this year, so that's good, definitely been at some firms where that isn't the case.
Anyone ever accept a counteroffer from your existing firm?
15 years experience and running a small team. My little group is or has designed around $100 million in factory and testing buildings in the past year.
I make around 110k now and am expecting an offer soon for around 135k.
I fully expect my employer to make an effort to keep me, especially since there are a lot of deadlines coming up and any delays would be very expensive.
Yes, I presented my previous firm with an offer from another firm and they matched it. Just figure out if you are willing to take X - Y should they counter with that as well as why you searched for a offer from another firm in the first place (money, organization, co-workers, work life balance, etc.)
. It WILL be easier for them to cough up the money to keep you vs. hire someone new on and train them up. Good luck!
Jul 28, 23 1:50 pm ·
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Bench
PH - did the current/matching office inquire why you had been looking for the new position in the first place?
Jul 28, 23 2:47 pm ·
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pandahut
Yea, nothing unique though to be frank and they know it was "business". Salary & Responsibility needed an upgrade and sometimes leadership gets lax. Every once in a while have to light a fire under their ass so to speak.
Instead , I should have factored growth at least for the next 2-3 years. Because , once your current office matched your
request , yrs highly likely that you’d be on that number for at least 2-3 years.
Not that it matters that much since I have 1/3 of your experience, but I also told my former employer that I was offered significantly more, and she told me that no one would ever pay me that, I'm not worth it, etc. So I found another offer that paid even more than the previous one, and happily left. She was ready to negotiate and was painfully polite when I handed her 2 weeks notice (I was 4th designer who quit from 10-person team), but it was too late
Pending the work is what you like, the "vibe" is right that seems fantastic. Congratulations and keep us posted!
Aug 1, 23 10:28 am ·
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Bench
Shell - is that the competing 'outside' firm offer (not the in-house match) ?
Aug 2, 23 10:20 am ·
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shellarchitect
That’s the offer from the new firm, which put me in the 75th percentile of the AIA’s salary guide for a “senior architect.” I took the offer and about 3 months later am happy that I did. Basically doing the same job for 30% more
Money Central
just had an offer accepted on a new house. Plan is to live in the new and rent out the old. Old house costs 23k a year to own. Not sure exactly what it will rent for, but high estimate is 36k. Should be pretty good monthly cash flow.
Hopefully this all works out!!!
Have a corp transfer from Germany moving in shortly, $3000 a month!
Online calc tools say we should make about 1 mill over the next 20 years with this rental. most of that is appreciation assuming we sell at the 20 year mark
@shellarchitect Good luck! Build that equity while you sleep!
I just submitted my last student loan payment!!
Now the government won't be able to repossess my degrees. Is that how this works?
There is some good news for everyone else with outstanding federal loans; with my luck, I'm sure this means that Biden will forgive your loans any day now.
Congrats! I got out of debt a couple of years ago and the immediate bump in kept income was amazing.
Time for another master degree then.
No way NS. I'm already over qualified compared to my peers in the industry. If I went back to school it would be for an MBA or JD because I was going to get out of architecture into something more lucrative. Neither of those options appeals all that much to me.
You’re welcome everyone.
Biden administration extends a student loan payment pause. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/06/us/politics/biden-student-loan-repayment-extension.html
Biden will forgive as few loans as possible to get the W without helping the majority. Gotta be able to sell your brand to the establishment AND the ignorati, you know.
By many measures the establishment is the ignorati.
I’m surprised I’ve not commented on this thread before. I just switched jobs, previous job was PM in a traditional architecture firm and I was at about $75k plus benefits and good bonuses in good years. My new job is in a non-profit and I’m making a bit more but with better benefits and less stress.
But also: husband and I downsized this year and paid off close to $150k in various kinds of debt (student loans, credit cards, business startup costs). It feels soooooo good. We were really living paycheck to paycheck and *barely* keeping all the balls in the air every month until we downsized. Now we have a little extra cash every month and can also pay for our son’s college without too much pain!
Major city in Midwest for all of the below:
2012-2018: Started at a smaller firm (13, grew to 25 while there). 39.5k to start, 401k match, good benefits, profit sharing. Cost of living increase every year, but decent sized bump at each step of movement up (especially at licensure). Ended there around 60k, which ended up being 70-72k with profit sharing bonus. Hit a ceiling growth-wise.
2018: Went to smaller firm (6) for 70k (PM/PA role) because they were promising second in command and varied work compared to former firm. Promises were all lies, bailed after 2 months.
2018 (2 weeks later) - 2021: Larger firm (130), started at 80k (PM/PA role). 401k match was kind of awful, but that insurance was unicorn insurance that I will never again get in this profession and allowed me to take care of things with little to no out of pocket costs. Never had a raise there because they seemed to be on relatively precarious ground the entire time. 2020 rocked them, 4 rounds of layoffs, massive paycut (mine went to 72k), just heard through the grapevine they instituted another paycut and 4 day work week so my intuitions were correct.
2021: Moved to even larger firm (250 and growing) to help diversify my project experience more (also PA/PM role, more PA focused though). 95k not inclusive of bonuses and 401k match, so over 100k total. Everything they promised during interviews has been accurate and I'm really enjoying it.
TL;DR - grew up working class, decade of experience over 100k total compensation, you do have to jump around to get raises and what you want sometimes. Some student loan debt (50k), little bit of CC debt, but I can basically live comfortably and do what I please as far as travel goes, etc... Not buying a Benz or anything, but I've never been a car guy anyway.
Midwest is rather large and includes some very large metro areas. Care to be a bit more specific with your locations?
I assume you graduated in 2012? Also, at what point of your career did you get a license? Thank you for sharing the info.
EDIT: This was supposed to be response to Le Courvoisier post.
I always thought of the AIA compensation reports as an interesting but likely ineffective tool, mostly due to my general belief that the AIA & commercial architecture are pretty different in their mentality, but I must admit I was happy to be wrong. Our office management just did a review of the latest compensation report & is adjusting salaries as a result. I asked for a raise when I became licensed earlier this year so I wasn't expecting anything for a few years but in a "rising tide lifts all boats" moment I'll be receiving another. Way to go AIA, you may change my mind after all.
It's definitely been an interesting year, especially after 2020. If you count the re-instatement of the salary cuts we took in mid-2020, I got 4 raises this year.
Not sure if this is happening throughout the industry or just with my firm, but it really feels like a major 'recalibration' is happening.
Congrats on your raises ... I'm hoping for a major recalibration across the industry. Architecture salaries have not kept up and a recalibration is needed if we want to get younger professionals to consider this a real career and not some type of hobby you can have fun with while you live off accumulated family wealth. Making the profession an attractive career is necessary if we are to be more diverse and inclusive.
Glad to hear folks are getting their proper due. As well as a 'recalibration', I'd say that firm ownership is also doing their very best to hold on to good talent. They likely understand the market and know that a pay bump is a good way to keep people motivated. (It also helps them later on when they say, 'i know your busy, but could you also take on this as well?')
Profit share is essentially the only thing that justifies extra effort, in my opinion.
I've been thinking the 2008-10 Great Recession is the reason for why our salaries are getting pumped. Not because of the beneficence of the managerial class, but for the fact there is no one avaliable to do the work. How else can I explain why I'm doing cds, when there is no one else to do the work. Or why I'm so stressed, or angry af? All of the mid-career peeple dropped off the face of the earth, and likely for the better.
100% agree b3ta. The recession did two things: 1) Artificially deflated starting salaries for a cohort of young professionals who are just now realizing that deflation has carried through in their raises for a decade, and 2) Drove a ton of entry-level designers to different industries. And now Those of us who stuck around are entering our prime productivity / earning years and there simply aren't enough of us left to fill the demand.
In short: go out & get while the gettin's good!
As an update since the new replies brought it back into the light: I ended up getting bumped about 5k when that second raise rolled around. Started the year at 52k (which is the rate I started at after I graduated) & between licensure and the second raise I'll finish the year at 70k. So up 34% in base salary. My year end bonus went up 66% too, but I don't know for sure if that's a semi permanent bump or a one time larger payment that will go back down to what the two previous years had been next year. Obviously those depend on how business is going.
I’m up 18% this year… left for a raise and came back 6 weeks later for another…. Guess I was pretty underpaid for awhile
When this happens I find myself torn between being happy for the deserved raise, and disappointed in the unrealized earnings during the period of underpayment.
I share that sentiment. from 80k to 94k and a
I share that sentiment. from 80k to 94k and a
I'm considering doing the same. Or at least leaving for more $$$.
Little more than 12 years of exp.
Congrats, Shellarchitect! I've raised my billing rate 15-20% each year for several years now, and just bumped again. I'm booked for 2022 so the new rate will be for projects starting in 2023. I like to think that I'm not money-motivated, but when some projects pay 30% or more better per hour than another, it's easy to prioritize the higher-paying one.
shellarchitect - are you here in the states? If so approximately what is your location?
Metro Detroit
Dang! You're making quite a bit!
We stayed put in 2021, but our rates are going up in 2022 too.
Bonus hit my bank account this morning. Drinks on me tonight!
congrats. Kind of working on something now for the end of year, beginning of 2022 when regular inquiries for services starts rolling in.
Nice, I'll take a Balvenie Double Wood please. No ice.
I suspect my bonus won't break $1k.
Sorry Chad. Slow year or stingy employer?
In general, what does a typical bonus in y'alls offices look like?
Neither a slow year or a stingy employer.
Our bonuses for salaried staff is typically based on how much unpaid overtime you do. I don't do more than 40 hours of overtime a year. Last year I did five hours of OT and still got a $1k bonus.
The firm does pay well and gives out raises on a regular basis. They just don't give out big bonuses.
Gotcha, our office operates on the opposite end of the spectrum. We're typically a 40 hours a week office barring a fire drill. Frequent raises are rarely given out (this year was an exception), but our year end bonuses are much larger than average. I could probably make more in base pay working somewhere else, but the bonus structure puts me above what I'd make elsewhere.
All the other offices I've work with have had that same view of overtime. Hell, the first firm I worked with required you to get permission to do overtime - even if you're salaried. Their view was that overtime burns people out and burnout is bad.
I'm in a similar boat as RJ. Below-average base salary (though improving this year) with very generous bonus / dividends that more than offset the base. My bonus this year was as much as my entire salary in 2010.
end of year bonus in my office are flat 1k loonies regardless of good/bad year but we also payout 100% OT to non-management staff... so the bonus is a thankyou, not a compensation for hours worked beyond the 37.5/week req.
Salaried employees are allowed to ebb & flow with what the work needs. 44 hours here, 36 hours there. But the general expectation is to keep it reasonable. Hourly employees are required to be green lit for OT.
& tduds i'm in a similar boat. Even though it comes every year I try to use it as an infusion of savings / investment money rather than a part of my normal budget. Mine this year was roughly 28% of my salary. That was a higher percentage than I'd received in the past, typically it was more towards 20%. I'd rather get that money throughout the year, but that's not the business model.
Starting with the pandemic i've been doing much more side stuff. Mostly quick renderings or resolving zba issues. total is around $4,000. Intent was to be my own personal spending money but never seems to work out that way.
zba issues? What are those?
I wouldn't mind doing renderings on the side. Unfortunately there are only a few architectural firms in my area and I think it would be a conflict of interest to do local work.
I work with one of the local DDAs to provide renderings for proposed facade updates. $250 per quicky sketchup rendering, I think 6 this year. I've also been helping a developer who buys and rehabs properties. They all seem to have problems that take a little diplomacy to resolve. He wouldn't really need me if they were local or had better command of the english language. He's chinese (I think) and his local employees are way to dumb to handle this sort of stuff.
DDA's?
Downtown development authority
Ah! Thanks.
What credit cards do y'all use? I've always used a standard $0 fee travel rewards card since I started college, but I finally started paying attention to the points system & have found that I'm not getting much in the way of "perks". Considering changing / adding another second line of credit that aligns more with my spending habits, which is mostly dining outside of the usual bills.
We have a miles card, use it for gifting flights to family who can't afford to join us.
All about those miles.
Cashback card. Take your money and do what you want with it.
I ended up getting an amex gold card. It has a fee but half of it I'll end up getting back in uber credits I know I'll use & it gave 4x points on dining / groceries, which is my largest non rent / utilities expense. The points conversion for travel rewards seems to be the most efficient so I'll probably end up using them on flights & the like when it comes time to cash in.
Uber credits? I'd walk before using that trash company.
Miles card for airline I fly - at one point had a higher tier to have lounge access each trip [nice on business trips to be able to work and snack before boarding]
I'm interested in having a bit of a discussion around ESOPs in terms of employee views and benefits. Most of what I see about ESOP businesses is surrounding the exit strategy for the owner as they near retirement and that while ESOPs are employee-owned, they don't really offer employees a lot of control. While related, I'm more interested in hearing what the benefits are to the employee.
Is it simply value that grows until they decide to leave the company or retire and is then paid out? Is this typically at the expense of other retirement planning/benefits offered by firms like 401k matching?
While perhaps not having a more involved role in decision making as perhaps you might in a cooperative model, do employees feel a greater sense of ownership in an ESOP that impacts how you view loyalty to the firm, or your work ethic overall?
Does working at an ESOP seem more long-term than a stepping stone in an overall career trajectory?
If you're reading this and have no idea what I'm talking about, these two articles by Niall Patrick Walsh give a decent overview and background:
Also, if you've worked for a firm with an ESOP and ended up leaving, I'm curious how you ended up getting the pay out of your shares; rollover into an IRA, lump sum cash payment, etc.? Reasoning for that method?
RedRover, Do you think there's roughly the same turnover at your firm compared to other non-ESOP firms ... just extended to the 5-year mark when employees are 100% vested? Do you find the lower salary to be made up in the stocks? Do you get profit sharing on top of this that helps make up the difference in salary?
This is a hard one to calculate/value, but I'll repeat what you already said above, as it aligns with what I've been told. Disclaimer, I've only worked at one ESOP company and it didn't even count because the year I was hired they were doing away with it. You mention its consideration for owners as an exit strategy and that is largely what I've been told. Considering that, one must raise the question, why do the owners need an unconventional exit strategy? Where are the usual suspects ready to take the reigns, buy up a firm, or otherwise replace the current retiring owners? With that in mind, and talking to friends who have worked at ESOPs for quite a while, albeit not at a high-level. The numbers don't seem to work out compared to just getting better salaries, bonuses, and 401k matches. Companies that are overall mediocre and otherwise would disappear without current ownership, often due to lack of succession planning, seem to fall on the ESOP model to squeeze out that last punch of retirement money for the owners by charging their employees to work for them. It's not the ESOP model that is the problem, but the idea that more often than not, the model is used by unprofitable companies.
Spot on from my perspective. ESOP or other ownership structure aside, the inherent profitability and long term outlook on the firm are more important things to consider if evaluating your potential investment (time and/or money) into the business.
Good points and a good reminder that just because a business is employee owned doesn't mean it's a good business and will turn a profit. Also notable that profit isn't the sole metric for determining the valuation of a company and subsequent stock price.
jeseffischer, do you know why the company you worked for decided to do away with it?
I don't work for an ESOP, but we do get additional "profit sharing" contributions to our 401k plans. We get pretty large cash bonuses every year as well, but the reason I put profit sharing in quotes is because one it's directly put into our 401k which I think is malarkey & two the only reason they do it is because the owner pays fewer taxes. If they made less money doing it we wouldn't have it. I imagine ESOP is much the same, if the math didn't work in their advantage no one would do it.
Everyday Architect yes lol, it became quite profitable and the new majority stake employees wanted to go back to a business model where 10% of the profits weren't being given in a structured way to capitol E employees. They'd rather decide at their graces and leisure how much bonus money they'd dole out in a good year. At the time it didn't phase me at all, even if I had been with the company for long, but their were PM level people politicking that were very upset they were outvoted.
RJ87, There are definite advantages for the business and those are well publicized, I'm wondering more about the advantages for the employee and things they may want to be aware of if looking at making a move to a company with an ESOP. Those things aren't quite as easily found. From what I'm finding though it can basically be a portion of a retirement portfolio in addition to a more typical 401k and other investments.
joseffischer, Gotta keep the distinctions between the "haves" and the "have nots" I guess so the hierarchy is clearly established ... sounds toxic AF. One of the things that I think appeals to me is that even the "lower" employees can feel a sense of ownership in an ESOP if it's set up the right way. Hopefully that helps them think of their work differently than just looking busy and punching a time card. Knowing that the overall profitability can come back to you in a more direct and transparent manner would help with that I think, but I've never worked in such a place.
anyone getting raises lately?
My old firm was bought be a much larger firm back in March, I plan on asking for a significant raise during my upcoming review. 10% for inflation plus I was a little underpaid coming in as I went from a 10 person firm to 500+
I got a 10% raise when I had my annual review in April.
I turned down an 18% raise to take another job (really it was an immediate 10% with additional guaranteed raise next year that would have put it just over 18% total).
I'd be careful assuming a larger firm equals higher pay. That hasn't always been the case for me in my previous experience. In fact, the largest firm I've worked for has a bit of a reputation of underpaying compared to their peers. Even then, you'll probably be able to negotiate to be paid comparative to others in the larger firm which I'm guessing will be more than the smaller firm could afford. Good luck.
We got a billion dollar backlog and are offering signing bonuses for new employees. It’s real simple… pay or I’m leaving. I’ll update when I have news
Sorry for the poor grammar….
I just gave myself a 30% raise. Now to wrap up my current projects and sign new ones at my higher billing rate so I can afford my salary!
Our office's annual reviews keep getting pushed back as ownership needs "more time" to consider... consider what, I'm not sure, but I'll certainly ask whenever my time comes up.
... arent you in ownership now ...
^Profit share & management but no equity. I don’t have an in on the finances.
NS, there's possibly a concern about the billing projections to the end of the year or longer (hello recession). One of the things I hadn't considered before being in an ownership position doing salary reviews is that while employees' cost of living is going up with inflation, you're getting paid with dollars that were likely negotiated years ago. Our stupid fee-competitive system means it's really really difficult to keep up with sudden changes in the strength of the economy. Just my unsolicited experience talking.
any updates?
Yes, I did get a 10% raise around the start of the year. Guess I prob seem greedy based on how much my income has increased in the pass few years, but I also work pretty damn hard, albeit in brief spurts. Perhaps more importantly I’ve noticed and pointed out that my projects generally don’t have the problems that others in the office do.
COLA - though not the SS one, but some "industry average" that gets pitched by partners + evening out each band in the firm. Nothing impactful to anyone [partners all seem to be getting vacation property and new cars...]
SS? Are you talking about soda and stainless steel or social security?
social security
Pardon my ignorance and confusion, what increase in pay is related to social security?
Announced today US SS getting an 8.7% COLA. So all our fees should go up 9% too right? and raises of 9% minimum should be expected for the working since the non-working get that too? Gotta keep this Ponzi scheme going somehow.
Only if your clients are on SS.
if you're charging a percent of construction cost, your fees did go up. why not adjust salaries to reflect that?
capitalism, this is our chance at some of those "record profits"
I haven't received any raise recently, and it's really frustrating seeing all these prices blown up.
Have you asked for one?
We had raise increases recently, definitely not like last year, raise ranges varied about 5% across the board, honestly at the lower levels most of the raise variance served to balance out pay gaps. Take it as you will, but some people who may have been strong negotiators and/or actively better candidates when hired haven't necessarily continued to show their edge compared to others who through training have caught up and should, in my opinion, be paid equal to their peers.
Separately, our average raise looks like it kept up with COLA this year, so that's good, definitely been at some firms where that isn't the case.
Anyone ever accept a counteroffer from your existing firm?
15 years experience and running a small team. My little group is or has designed around $100 million in factory and testing buildings in the past year.
I make around 110k now and am expecting an offer soon for around 135k.
I fully expect my employer to make an effort to keep me, especially since there are a lot of deadlines coming up and any delays would be very expensive.
Thoughts?
I've had some made but I didn't accept them.
Yes, I presented my previous firm with an offer from another firm and they matched it. Just figure out if you are willing to take X - Y should they counter with that as well as why you searched for a offer from another firm in the first place (money, organization, co-workers, work life balance, etc.) . It WILL be easier for them to cough up the money to keep you vs. hire someone new on and train them up. Good luck!
PH - did the current/matching office inquire why you had been looking for the new position in the first place?
Yea, nothing unique though to be frank and they know it was "business". Salary & Responsibility needed an upgrade and sometimes leadership gets lax. Every once in a while have to light a fire under their ass so to speak.
The mistake i did was telling my current employer the real number to match.
Instead , I should have factored growth at least for the next 2-3 years. Because , once your current office matched your
request , yrs highly likely that you’d be on that number for at least 2-3 years.
This is 1000% true.
Not that it matters that much since I have 1/3 of your experience, but I also told my former employer that I was offered significantly more, and she told me that no one would ever pay me that, I'm not worth it, etc. So I found another offer that paid even more than the previous one, and happily left. She was ready to negotiate and was painfully polite when I handed her 2 weeks notice (I was 4th designer who quit from 10-person team), but it was too late
We'll see how it goes, offer came in last night. 135k but also 5k signing bonus, another week of PTO (5), better benefits, and a cell phone allowance.
Pending the work is what you like, the "vibe" is right that seems fantastic. Congratulations and keep us posted!
Shell - is that the competing 'outside' firm offer (not the in-house match) ?
That’s the offer from the new firm, which put me in the 75th percentile of the AIA’s salary guide for a “senior architect.” I took the offer and about 3 months later am happy that I did. Basically doing the same job for 30% more
How's everyone fairing / expecting to fair with end of year bonuses, raises etc.? I'm expecting that conversation here in the next week or so.
https://archinect.com/forum/thread/150100167/year-end-bonuses
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