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Frank Lloyd Wright Corner Windows

pdxbride&groom

Lately I’ve been drawing inspiration from my backyard but the dang corner posts keep getting in my way. I decided to blow out a large section of useless, structurally irrelevant wall (He he) and “let in the light” year round. Only problem is now I’m obsessed with post-less 90 degree glass corner windows. My problem is the glass companies are making this process more difficult than it needs to be. FLW nature quotes are the only thing keeping my persistence on this project. Any thoughts?

 
Jun 25, 20 8:17 pm
Formerlyunknown

What do you mean by "the glass companies are making this process more difficult than it needs to be"?  There are any number of window and curtainwall manufacturers that offer various postless corner windows and systems. Some postless options in some locations/climates will require energy code variances. Talk to some reps.  

Jun 25, 20 9:03 pm  · 
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pdxbride&groom

Yes, the options are limited and pricey but there are a few. It’s the contractors/framers that are having to employ other experts like glazers because the glass companies act like it’s so easy to install and adhere. I’m still a bit fuzzy on the proper permits and number of technical panes the window should have because I was under the impression it should be at tempered, weatherproof, able to withstand high wind etc. So is it just one extra thick piece of glass? Either way apparently it comes in 2 pieces that have to be magically joined together by a glazer So how can they guarentee their work? When this thing leaks, do I call the contractor, the glass company or the glazer? Haha not funny but haha.

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drinks_at_avec

there's a glass factory in Spring Green (or nearby) that makes reasonably priced, double-insulated glass that turns corners. Call the hardware store there for more info.

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Almosthip

Check out The Schroder house .....awesome corner windows that open.


Jun 26, 20 11:08 am  · 
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Almosthip

Open says me

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Drawn in

Had the good fortune to have Han Schroeder (Daughter of the Schroeders who commissioned the residence) as a professor in college. She told us lots of stories about living in that home.

1  · 

You're talking about a butt-glazed corner, right? Like this?

Not a good detail, IMO.


Jun 26, 20 12:21 pm  · 
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I personally prefer to use a smaller mullion with structural silicone sealant rather than the above detail.

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gwharton

That can work, but it's expensive and very leak-prone if not installed perfectly.

1  · 

That's a nice way of saying it will leak.

4  · 
Non Sequitur

Ya'll looking at this the wrong way... just get a corner-less folding window system/track. Sure, there will be a mullion at the corner but then just unlock the window and BANG, get those panels tucked away and out of your way.

Nanawall does this.  I was looking into this same situation for a residential project on the east-coast.  


2  · 

Get outa' here with your expensive Canadian ideas!

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Non Sequitur

Hey, so for once I comment on an architectural topic with a architectural (hence relevant) point and I get turned down.

This aggression will not stand, man - This aggression will not stand, man  The Dude

5  · 
Bloopox

A door system is a good idea - but in that case why go with a nanawall system that's still got a post except when folded out of the way? There are some European postless glass corner doors - even some double and triple glazed ones. More expensive even than an "expensive Canadian idea", I suppose.

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pdxbride&groom

Right, so did I mention this is for my home living room 2 stories high? So for umm, my own safety reasons I think I will pass on the nano. Also, it will be next to a sliding glass door so I could just go outside to the patio. But during Winter I want the view which happens to be at a 90 degree corner of an overhang. If I’m getting pushback on a non moveable part window, I’m guessing the nano would be considered “specialty”. I don’t think I could afford the grease or hinge screw on that thing.

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JLC-1

this is the smallest we have been able to get from windows companies, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think FLLW didn't use insulated glass, which would bring the detail to a single silicon bead inside and out.


Jun 26, 20 2:42 pm  · 
1  · 

Rick Joy also used single pane glass on some of his all-glass installations, I believe. I can't think of any application between interior and exterior where single pane is appropriate these days.

1  · 
SneakyPete

Moderate climate and a building with only passive thermal and moisture controls?

1  · 
pdxbride&groom

Wow, I appreciate the response to my wine infused rant. Yeah, postless, seamless window fusion... I believe the term is “mitered” but I think the glass glazing has to be done on site rather than ahead of time. Either way I refuse to let little details derail my project. Not many people want to touch this sort of thing.



Jun 26, 20 3:28 pm  · 
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JLC-1

conveniently avoided to show the glass seal

1  · 
pdxbride&groom

I guess I am about to learn if the “butt glaze” applies here because I was naive to think you would just take two 45 degree angles and heat them to adhere, using the framework as main supports. Or pre mold the glass so that it’s one solid piece at 90 degrees then custom cut the glass sides to fit the opening. I don’t want to concede my (Frank’s) idea of a postless corner but if the windows are big enough maybe it won’t be as noticeable that I went the cheaper easier route? 

Jun 26, 20 3:57 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

Gorilla Glue will do just fine.

2  · 
pdxbride&groom
archanonymous

that's because they were mostly made up or omitted. Pretty much any FLW building tour will include an anecdote about how bad the project a) used to leak b) still leaks or c) probably will leak in the future, again.

1  · 

FLW was/is not immune ... there are only two types of windows in architecture: 1) windows that leak, and 2) windows that don't leak yet.

1  · 
archanonymous

Totally! Also applicable to roofs (see my comment in "Types of Roofs" thread like 4 days ago.

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pdxbride&groom

haha, so you’re saying just design a glass irrigation system to compliment the window and water my plants below?! Genius.

Jun 26, 20 4:41 pm  · 
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SneakyPete

Overhanging roof eaves that are 10 feet deep also help.

1  · 
x-jla

“plant vines”

Jun 26, 20 5:31 pm  · 
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proto

hire a professional & be prepared to pay for custom design & installation -- what you want to do is in "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" territory {this is not meant to be insulting, just frank...}

there are companies that can handle this

they'll even design the structure that needs to support this glass system top & bottom...the glass isn't going to hold up the roof or resist lateral forces

Jun 26, 20 5:35 pm  · 
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pdxbride&groom

Yes, I learned the term ‘Structural Glass’ is not a real thing, just an ill conceived concept you architects made up to trick people. Also be aware, no single company handles this, multiple quotes and multiple outsourcing applies.

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threadkilla

you could, you know... copy directly from FLW

Jun 26, 20 5:50 pm  · 
1  · 
pdxbride&groom

well if I’m going to borrow, maybe I should just remove the whole problem corner and make it inverted so that I’m sure to get closer to that ten foot eave overhang 

Jun 26, 20 6:19 pm  · 
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randomised


There I fixed it for you, a simple glass curtain wall corner!

Source: Neutelings Riedijk Architecten, MAS Museum in Antwerp

Jun 27, 20 6:31 am  · 
3  · 

OP I want to thank you for having all these architects do my research!


Jun 27, 20 8:08 am  · 
1  · 
Volunteer

Put the support column outside. You will never have to worry about a cantilever failing. 

Jun 28, 20 9:01 pm  · 
1  · 
pdxbride&groom

​^^Nailed it. This is on a home that’s already been built so it can get a bit tricky. So that’s what sparked the idea... I noticed the support column was outside supporting the patio (it’s a daylight ranch design) so the cantilever was installed and then we could play jenga with the rest.​

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pdxbride&groom

Midway point project update: so the hole has been cut, cantilever installed (Order is up to you to arrange) and just got another update from the glass company: the frame is constructed but the glass is technically coming from Canada! So one more month to go for glass install and on-site butt glaze/gorilla glue -assuming they don’t just adhere with maple syrup. ;) So I was given the choice of having a post (immediately rejected) or going with glass that is 3/4” thick, single pane, laminated, & tempered because you know, heat efficiency doesn’t matter -this project is all about aesthetic and persistence. :D 

Side note: if you attempt this design on an already constructed home with people living inside, leave the interior drywall alone so that way you can more comfortably allow for weeks/months for the glass to be properly mitered by the Canadians. Wish me luck on the install.

Aug 14, 20 9:06 am  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

Don’t forget to shim the glass with broken hickey sticks eh.

2  · 
Non Sequitur

*hockey.

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proto

As a fellow pdx’er, I’m compelled to ask for a photo of the space & the finished condition when the canadians deliver

2  · 
pdxbride&groom

For sure! Just note that I recently moved up mountain :D

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proto

looks like you got er done

I hope you and your window are safe from the fires

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This isn't going to go well. 

Aug 14, 20 12:48 pm  · 
1  ·  1
pdxbride&groom

You’re sort of right... it didn’t go ‘well’, it went stunningly glorious!

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pdxbride&groom

You’re sort of right, it didn’t go ‘well’ ...it went stunningly glorious!

1  · 
pdxbride&groom

Ta-da! Probably more on the basic side and less grandiose than many imagined but still unique and within budget. With my slider doors I get a decent panoramic view so the corner gives nice peripheral vision and there’s a tiny bridge I like to look at. So you might notice it still needs finishing work, siding, drywall etc. and there’s a 1 inch gap all the way around the frame as well as a 1/8 inch gap where the glass should be joined. There’s a reason for this: “to let more nature in”, duh.  No, funny story... sometime between Canada and the install, the glass got scratched so there will be a replacement piece. [...enter snarky remark here]

So other than constantly trying to be sold a corner post, my persistence has paid off in other ways. For instance, I was asked what color buttglaze I prefer because the glass installers were going to use black, which would leave a solid black line down the crease, so clear glaze was not as much an obvious choice as I thought. FYI, sticking with clear.

Glass cost $6000 <— includes free replacement piece

Total cost of construction with cantilever beam, scaffolding, permits, etc: to be determined, but somewhere between a Yaris and a 21 paneled fully restored kombi. I’ve been looking at live virtual tours of FLW homes and next week finally get to go to one in person. Thanks for letting me share my experience with you all.

Sep 8, 20 12:09 pm  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

As someone who owns a yaris... that's a cheap price!

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pdxbride&groom

Haha — typed from the passenger seat of my unicorn Tacoma.

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pdxbride&groom

FLW FTW

Sep 8, 20 12:10 pm  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

The location of that outlet bothers me excessively. Why spend all this $ and effort on a feature corner only to have a pesky power outlet sour the view?

1  · 
pdxbride&groom

My chaise lounge covers it, but that way I can charge my phone etc while posting and reading this forum. :) My spouse wanted a faux eames chair but then it would be too low profile. Also, the framers added a bonus outlet on the outside near the window so I acually gained an outlet and didnt lose power to the patio light.

1  · 
SneakyPete

Please avoid buying knock-offs as it perpetuates the theft of capital from designers by large companies with no ethics.

2  · 
Non Sequitur

So Pete... am I a terrible person for owning 8 replica Eames Eiffel chairs?

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SneakyPete

No, the purchasing of knock-off furniture is totally understandable, it's why the market is saturated with them. But until the USA decides to protect designers the way they do shitheads like Walt Fucking Disney, the only way we can try and affect change is with our wallets.

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SneakyPete

Also there's a bit of a grey area with regards to the Eames shell chairs, as Modernica bought the factory with the molds and still sells the shell chairs. Vitra uses the Eames name (probably holds the rights to do so) and the current chairs are Herman Miller and are plastic, which fits with the Eames' ethos best, even though they aren't "original."

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pdxbride&groom

no glass, perhaps less headache

Sep 8, 20 12:12 pm  · 
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pdxbride&groom

^^^Partial view living room. The debate was never whether or not to follow through with the design despite the cost but the real debate came on what type & style of furniture to put in front of it. Perhaps I need a mid century modern piece by FLW. Donations gladly accepted.

Sep 8, 20 12:16 pm  · 
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It looks nice. Is it single pane or thermal glass?

Sep 8, 20 12:40 pm  · 
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pdxbride&groom

Single pane in my rear. But only because the see thru glass with built in heat element was fire hazard. ;)

 · 

It's expansive and lovely. And I'm glad you're happy with it, because I do think people should love their home. This is such an important part of my philosophy as a designer that when people show me something they did in their home that I *don't* like I won't say so, because I don't want them forever seeing that thing they loved and having their enjoyment of it be tainted by whatever I think. It's none of my business.

(I have one former non-architect coworker who showed me his own house, that he built himself, and it was disastrous on so many levels - for example, the only access to the porch with a great view of the river that was used for grilling and family gatherings was through the master bedroom?!? -  that I was overwhelmed and ended up just nodding my head and biting my tongue but I'm sure I had a pained expression on my face.)

With all that said, I'm going against my typical rule just to repeat: it's irresponsible to use single pane glass if the interior of your space has HVAC controls. If you're naturally heated and cooled, then bravo, enjoy it, it really is beautiful!  





Sep 8, 20 3:31 pm  · 
4  · 
Non Sequitur

maybe there is another single pan glass corner just behind and the lounging space is filled with argon gas. Thermal issues solved baby! 

Just need a breathing tank/mask to enjoy the corner, but that's no biggie when the reward is mullion-less corner glazing!

 · 
apscoradiales

Done corner glazing as show by Donna Sink a number of times, and never had problems.

Mind you, that was in commercial buildings and using curtain wall frames, not residential.

Sep 8, 20 3:38 pm  · 
1  · 
pdxbride&groom

I appreciate all the feedback and funny comments and no offense is taken if you say it’s not your cup of tea haha. I didn’t have much choice on the pane because I was told you can’t double miter and double glaze a double pained window (can’t or they just won’t). That’s why many people get talked into double pane plus a posted corner frame but that’s not as cool in my opinion and it ruins the seamless view and is pointless because you could just put two windows next to each other one on each wall. It’s probably more irresponsible to leave any window or door open while running your heat or A/C. With the thickness of the glass plus insulation it will probably be more energy efficient than those kitchen greenhouse windows. Bonus, mine is sandwiched between a fireplace and double paned slider door so it’s easy to regulate temp and I’m in moderate climate with not much fluctuation. FLW installed radiant floor heating to help compensate for his magnificent yet inefficient windows and he also used affordable, non custom, standard store bought windows and just lined them all up next to each other to window whole walls for the non rich but with a few wood panels in between (that and the indoor water element will probably serve as inspiration for my next project on my quest to make my home less generic). ;)

Sep 8, 20 4:44 pm  · 
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SneakyPete

The hubris of FWL was well known, and while he took cues from nature, they weren't usually environmentally conscious ones, more aesthetic and experiential. Don't apologize for your choice, as it's one you made and should own. You have your priorities, and people will either agree or won't, so don't bother trying to change anyone's mind. Unsolicited advice. 


 There's a process to making IG units, and it usually includes a gas being put into the cavity, which would likely be impossible without a new piece of machinery, one that would not pay for itself.

3  · 
pdxbride&groom

Aww, shucks, thanks for all the positivity. It’s a bit late now but IG units, great thought... do they come near floor to ceiling sized and can they be mitered at 45 deg? I still think with the right custom frame someone out there is able to miter and glaze then take slightly larger pieces and miter and glaze but the corner might become some weird warped eyesore illusion or perhaps start an indoor fire when the sun shines. :D

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archanonymous

There's an easy workaround... just do a curved IGU unit!

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gwharton

Frameless corner IGU installations are pretty common in structural glazing systems. It's not impossible, no matter what your local glazing supplier might think. It's done all the time.

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SneakyPete

Linked above and discarded as unworthy. Please link a frameless corner IGU with nothing but the two pieces of glass at the corner and nothing else.

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gwharton

Lots of examples here: https://www.pilkington.com/en-gb/uk/products/product-categories/glass-systems/pilkington-planar

I've used this system to do frameless IGU corners in several built projects. It's not cheap, but it's completely possible.

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SneakyPete

I see no details.

1  · 

Get ready for that single pane glass to frost up if you're in a colder climate and have serious condensation if you're in a hot climate and you have AC.  

Sep 9, 20 11:24 am  · 
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