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Single Step Handrail Exception? - Courtroom

LittleRed

Hi All. I am using ICC 2018 on an existing courthouse - adding a couple of courtrooms. Existing courtrooms are skimpy on - or completely lacking - handrails at single/couple steps locations. Are there any exceptions for having a handrail on both sides of a SINGLE step at the Judge Bench and Jury Box, currently?

 
Jan 13, 20 8:50 pm
Non Sequitur

I think you need elevators in that situation now. 

Jan 13, 20 9:06 pm
atelier nobody

Judge's bench and jury box must both be accessible to persons with disabilities.

Jan 13, 20 10:14 pm
SneakyPete

Existing buildings have provisions in some cases, no?

atelier nobody

Not for areas of new work - OP specified adding courtrooms. All new work must comply.

SneakyPete

Yep, I reread it more carefully. Gotta redesign instead of simply replicating the prior design.

proto

talk to your building official

Jan 14, 20 12:47 pm

^underrated comment of the day

poop876

Not all building officials are qualified to tell you what is required!

SneakyPete

Therein lies the difference between ASK your building official and TALK TO your building official.

Koww

can I text my building official instead?

LittleRed

Thanks, all. Yes, the new work will need to meet code for new construction. I will reach out to the building department for their interpretation. 

Jan 14, 20 7:16 pm
poop876

What interpretation? It's black and white!

Chad Miller

You'd be surprised how much interpretation is allowed. I've had code officials out right say they aren't going to allow something because they don't like the section of the code that permits it.

poop876

Then that plans examiner would look like an ass during the appeal.

b3tadine[sutures]

poop, unless directed by the client, and the reading isn't cost prohibitive, appealing is a fools errand.

poop876

I would appeal plans examiners "not liking" something on my own dime!

b3tadine[sutures]

Well, I would as well, if I were develop, design build, but then I'm the money and the client.

Apparently you didn't understand the point of SneakyPete's comment, "Therein lies the difference between ASK your building official and TALK TO your building official." Reaching out to the building department for their interpretation is asking rather than talking.

b3tadine[sutures]

Many building code officials don't give two shits about ADA. Issues around ADA have little, or nothing to do with life safety, ADA is a Federal Civil Rights issue. Non ADA compliant spaces are handled by DOJ and through civil suits.

Jan 14, 20 11:52 pm
poop876

In addition they are not liable for any of it and it's all on the professional.

Plenty of building officials care about Chapter 11 of the code and ANSI/ICC A117.1. But you’re right that ADA is not their jurisdiction.

Chad Miller

Our state and local building officials review and inspect for compliance with ANSI/ICC A117.1.

b3tadine[sutures]

Chad, here, it's hit or miss, no laws, but if the code official is an architect, they err on the right side, but they're not required to.

Chad Miller

True. It's just that the few areas I've worked the building department did ADA review and inspection.

b3tadine[sutures]

I've run into that more with For Profit third party groups.

Chad Miller

Interesting. May I ask roughly what part of the US you practice in? Myself it's MN and CO.

b3tadine[sutures]

That's too funny. So do I.

b3ta, is Chad just another one of your personalities and this whole time you've been talking with yourself?

b3tadine[sutures]

That would be, false, but it does make for an interesting story.

LittleRed

This isn't a question about ADA. It is a code question.

Jan 15, 20 10:36 am
b3tadine[sutures]

That's a mistake. However, you will need to review existing building codes for any relevant questions, but I suspect that you will find that once construction exceeds a certain dollar amount, you will have criteria to follow with respect to accessibility. Then, it is, an ADA issue.

Chad Miller

This isn't necessarily correct. In the 2018 IBC existing building code there are several compliance paths, each have different thresholds for making the building and it's parts ADA compliant.

SneakyPete

ADA: Civil Rights Legislation. Can get the client sued. While guidelines are provided, there is no guarantee that following them to the letter protects you from lawsuits if the lawyers can prove you did not comply with the law.

IBC: Code. Adopted by the State verbatim or modified. Not Civil Rights Legislation. Often includes ANSI A117.1. This is what code officials are checking against. ANSI A117.1 tracks closely with the ADA guidelines but some variation exists.

Local Codes (mostly in cities): State Code with local amendments. Some cities adopt extra language that tightens the accessibility requirements.

^underrated comment of the day

threeohdoor

I feel like you (EA) should do a weekly aggregation of the "underrated comments of the day".

atelier nobody

Chad - Existing building provisions apply only to those parts of the building you're not otherwise touching with the project. The specific area of alteration always needs to comply with current Code. Example (from the OP): If you are gutting an existing interior space and remodeling into a new courtroom, then everything inside that room must comply with current Code; the EBC applies once you leave the altered room and enter the existing corridor.

proto

OP refers to modifying existing courtrooms, not converting spaces into courtrooms (tho OP also mentions adding courtrooms )

I'm guessing they might not have to do anything if they aren't really altering the space, unless the client is requesting upgrades everywhere & then it's a question of what is possible in the space

LittleRed

They are entirely new courtrooms, to be clear.

proto

alrighty, then...ignore the above comment

LittleRed

The "existing courtrooms" I reference in the original post are elsewhere in the courthouse.

"I feel like you (EA) should do a weekly aggregation of the 'underrated comments of the day'."

No way. I won the internet. I'm coasting from here on out.

Jan 15, 20 3:21 pm

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