It’s about a comic book villain...so the story was direct...the acting and cinematography was fantastic. Not just Phoenix but pretty much the entire cast...I typically hate comic book movies, so my expectations were low going in...maybe that’s the difference?

What was the
“target audience”?

Let me guess...”angry disinfanchised white males...” but that’s not true...audience was very diverse...and that’s not what movie was even about...so they faked the narrative...faked the idea that there is an angry audience...faked the review that it was terrible...aka fake news

"fake news" is a meaningless term in 2019

Absolutely, Bench. It's akin to saying (or writing) a word so frequently as to need to stop and think if it's even a real word.

It started as a real term for a real thing, ie - literal online mills of clickbait from eastern european countries designed to lure in gullible (and online-illiterate) social media users. It now stands in for anything a person 'wishes' not to be true, regardless of 'factual' truth, which one might note is not a thing.

It also makes mistakes less tolerable (they prove the fake-ness) and adds to the artificial need for balance in presenting news.

Phoenix is a fantastic actor, and had this Character been an original property I might be interested. As it is, cannibalizing incel culture to try and cobble together a Frankenstein's monster of a Joker origin story (the character didn't initially have one, and every attempt to retcon one has been lame) doesn't appeal to me.

wo, is that really the attempt made here? If true, then I care even less about it now.

I haven't seen it, might when it becomes a part of whatever streaming service I pay for, but not until then. Here's a review likely of the type jla is railing against which contains a bunch of good links for further reading: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/joker-starring-joaquin-phoenix-sparked-incel-controversy-because-it-s-ncna1062656

You haven’t seen it, but you post articles about how toxic it is....all movies should be PG...and have one of each type of person in it...except angry psychotic white men employed as street clowns. Got it.

You would think people would be as concerned about rap music glorifying killing people when thousands of kids per year are actually listening to rap music, mimicking the style, and killing people. You racist fucks.

So, not caring about a comic book character is racism?

Or is it trying to blame rap music for murder?

I thought video games were the new rap music when it comes to violence.

I love rap music too...just saying why is media so concerned over this particular glorification of violence but not a peep about rap music? Could it be that they Only care when it supports some narrative? Nahhhh. Media good trump bad! All news is real news!

Maybe you need to diversify your media sources.

It’s bs. Art isn’t responsible for behavior. Sometimes it has an effect. I think ozzy was blamed for a few suicides. Marilyn Manson too. Rap for gang violence. Artists have no responsibility for the way the audience reacts to their art.

It’s not a conspiracy...just woke culture destroying the ability to give an honest critique. Black Panther was also very overrated. Works both ways. If Joker was trans, and the same exact movie was made other than that detail, they would be going nuts with praise. My point...Critique is now heavily biased by moral righteousness bs.

Sorry ... to attempt to portray this as some sort of political machination is simply asinine.

It’s worse than that. It’s cowardly critics looking for social brownie points from peers. Yuck

To attempt to portray this as some sort of social brownie points competition is simply asinine.

It’s 100% true.

You honestly believe that this movie wasn’t reviewed with negative bias? And that black panther wasn’t reviewed with positive bias? This was a better movie. Period. Acting, cinematography, story, originality...And funniest thing is...The plot of this movie wasn’t Trumpian as critics seem to suggest...But the plot of BP was actually about pro nationalism. Lmfao.

I mean, I likes BP, but it wasn’t as good of a film overall. Good, not great. The worth of art has become tethered to external narratives that have little to do with the art itself and all to do with the way media wants to frame it and use it as a wedge to further some broader issue.

"...the way the media wants to frame it and use it ..." Your conspiracy theories are coming back into the discussion.

Not a conspiracy theory. It’s an obvious take on the bias of media critics.

I enjoyed black panther

You really have a strong victim quotient in your identity. Everyone is out to get you, right? Just learn to read between the lines and not get so bent out of shape when something is at odds with your world view. Why does it matter to you that "the media" seemed to have had a particular view on this movie? Just watch it and enjoy it. It's such a sign of weakness that you constantly portray "the media" or "the Left" or whatever as the boogie man. G row up.

preemptively ... to attempt to portray this as some sort of boogie man out do get you is simply asinine.

I’m not making the controversy up...it’s been in media for last couple weeks. Since movie came out, people have been baffled as to why the critic reacted the way they did. Vice, Vox, the Guardian, as well as many other msm outlets and online film critics obviously critiqued the film through a moral lens. This isn’t paranoia...it’s observation. This trend that I and many others have pointed out has tainted honest objective expert critiques of art. If art is only for the do gooders, then art will offer a narrow window into the world

Jus saying, the moral qualifiers reduce the value and seriousness of artistic critique.

This is obviously happening in architecture as well. The worth of an architectural work being weighted by the morality of its maker, national / political origins, it’s social message, etc....so now that the media outrage was extinguished by the positive reaction that the public had...they are going after the song at the end because the singer is a creep...a song we’ve all heard a billion times.

Critiques will always be framed through some type of lens (cultural, political, economical, what will get the most clicks, etc.) ... no one is disputing that. The job of the critic is to place the work in context (i.e. look at it through a lens) and offer their critical assessment and opinion. To say that because a critique doesn't match the public perception or economic success doesn't mean the critique is invalid, it just means the critic was looking through a different lens than how the public would receive the work. THIS IS NORMAL ... see my original comment above.

The lens that they frame it with lately seems to be very narrow. The fact that everyone needs to infuse moral lecturing into everything they write is why the media and Hollywood types are viewed as elitists. The peasants and deplorables don’t give a shit about getting moral guidance from media and Hollywood. That’s what moms are for.

To attempt to portray this as some sort of heroic stand on behalf of the peasants and deplorables who can't think for themselves is simply asinine.

Do you guys have reading comprehension issues?

Not a heroic anything...actual everyday people don’t give a shit what these twats think or say. They are irrelevant.

And becoming more and more irrelevant with every virtue signal they fart out.

Oh, but it’s so obvious that YOU care what they say making what they say very relevant to you. So by your own actions you’re actually disproving your own point.

Try to follow along. It’s really not that hard. I don’t care about what a particular critic says. The public doesn’t care either. I am questioning the general state of the arts and the idea of expert critiques in general. I think it’s important to have professional critiques by film people that judge the quality of film.

You're not questioning the general state of the arts and idea of expert critiques in general ... you're ranting because the "woke media" said something you disagree with. BTW, we do have professional critiques written by film people that judge the quality of the film. Now see if you can follow along here ... those professional critics aren't there to predict the public's response to any particular film. Rather they are there to place the film in context, and give their professional opinion and analysis. Your personal critique, the public's overall reception, and the professionals' critiques can all exist simultaneously without taking anything away from any of them.

I didn’t say that they can’t coexist. I said that the credibility of the critics goes down with each virtue signal...if their opinion is equal to that of one single audience member, then yeah...but the megaphone that they have amplifies their half assed critiques to seem like more than one singular opinion. See audience vs critics rotten tomatoes below...see the numbers...The media is pushing a narrative. It’s very clear to anyone paying attention. You aren’t paying attention.

By calling them out for alleged "virtue signalling" you're signalling your own virtues and pushing your own* narrative. The difference, they get paid to do it ... so yeah, they have a megaphone. Most people can understand that it is still an opinion and don't get all bent out of shape by it. But then again you basically said you need to stand up for the peasants and deplorables who can't think for themselves so maybe I'm being generous in thinking they can come to their own conclusions. 

If you're really that bothered by it, write an angry email to their editors. If you're lucky it will get them reprimanded or fired. If I'm lucky it will get posted on twitter and we can have another laugh. 

*It's not really your own, it's the right's talking points you're regurgitating.

Oops spellcheck

Alt-right isn't counterculture, it's racism. We fought a war to keep these assholes from ruling the world. F#*ing Nazi's. I hate those people.

Yeah I'm not so sure the problem with the world today is that we aren't being nice enough to the neo-nazis.

liberals circa 1990’s are now...”alt-right”. Because some skinny dick form vice says so....Lost it’s Meaning. Agree though...Nazis are bad. Haven’t seen any in a while. The joker theater was filled with lots of different people. Lots of couples on dates. Black, white, Latinos all fuckin away...not all white incels...expept the joker. That’s just a movie though. Remember when they wanted to Ban rap music? Same shit different shovel.

I don't know who "they" is in that post but I'm guessing you're referring to a much wider cohort of people than actually wanted to ban rap music.

You know exactly what I’m talking about. The pearl clutches used to be old republicans that got brownie points from their church pals...now they are young leftists...this is obvious to anyone paying attention. Liberals used to be chill...now they are not...Joker is the latest example of PC culture trying to ruin art for cheap virtue points on social media. The comedians have been talking about this for a while.

PC culture is anti-creativity.

Liberals circa the 1990's are not now the 'alt-right'. Nazis are the alt-right. Period.

Yeah. Nazis are bad. Is ben Shapiro a nazi? He’s been labeled alt right...doesn’t fit the profile...maybe the Jewish cap is a decoy!

How many Nazis have you met? My grandpa killed lots of them...I think I saw 2 at a punk show in 1995 once. That’s all. Not an actual big part of daily modern life. But if I ever see one I’ll bitch slap him for ya.

it was Tipper Gore that wanted labels on CDs

Yeah. I remember that. I think 2-live-crew got pulled from shelves or something. Ridiculous then, ridiculous now.

Just pointing out that this thread isn't a discussion of the movie but a rant about perceived enemies using the (overstated) discourse about the movie as a flimsy example. I'm looking forward to watching the film soon, & maybe I'll start a thread about it.

It’s a thread about critique being poisoned by virtue signaling. Kinda funny when the imbalance between elite “experts” and actual audience is soooo off. Where’s DSB when you need her?

On one hand, there are quite a few mis-guided & overblown interpretations of the film. On another hand, there is just as much genuinely good critique and analysis. On a third hand, since when is the popularity of something the indicator of its quality?

Media is not ok with a particular type of violence, but fine with other types of violence

Popularity is not a good indicator of quality...I agree...so why do you support direct democracy and removal of electoral college?

"Media" are plural.

If I remember correctly from past discussions...

The electoral college is broken but my personal opinion is that it should be strengthened, not abolished. I also have issues with the 17th Amendment. I'm pretty vocally against direct democracy. Anyway, this thread is about movies, not your failed whataboutisms.

Must be thinking about someone else

Did you see the movie?

The guy blocks me and then stalks my threads like a crazy ex.

You're not that special . . . deal with it.

You guys aren’t very good at ignoring me.

Waiting for a big Revit file to sync . . .

I’m so offended! Those depolrables!

The pc media always lecturing us...they Are soooo woke. This ain’t funny anymore because I said so! Whaaa

Sample bias.

The performative outrage over PC Culture is more stifling (and more annoying) than PC Culture because it results in a bunch of try-hard edge-lords embracing a mediocre product just to "own the libs." It's all very fucking dumb and I'm disappointed that you'd buy into it.

Bill Burrs new special is fuckin hilarious. Have you seen it? He talks about this stuff a little. Exposes the absurdity in all of it in a bit about actors playing disabled characters. It’s brilliant.

I haven't seen his new special but I love Bill Burr. One of the most underrated comedians working today. When Louis CK got #cancelled I was really hoping Burr would be able to fill the void CK left. Not sure if that's happening though. 

Chappelle, on the other hand, peaked with his Comedy Central show & would rather blame woke culture than try harder. 

F is for family is pretty good too. Chappelle show was great...but comedians understand that the sacred cow has changed. This is linked to current gatekeepers of moral outrage...which happens to be the left media and overall pc culture. Back then it was the Christian Right and the conservatives.

personally, I like it when the morally righteous get poked fun at regardless of who it is.

.

Correct that the rules are not actual rules...I guess it’s more of an annoyance than anything. Like serving food to picky eaters.

But also maybe you're just a bad cook.

I’m an amazing cook :)

But you're not great at metaphors.

Same can be said for you . . .

Well...I’m married so you may be right.

Explains a lot of your angst .

Good point. The narrative that a white manic is created by circumstances is one that no one wants to hear. Strangely enough the narrative that our environment creates us...and that we aren’t 100% responsible for our actions is one the left has always pushed. When it’s a white incel psychopathic clown that no longer applies. Why? Sounds very racist. Like white people are capable of self determination...and others are incapable of self determination...

Reality is, mentally unstable people of any background are more easily influenced by environmental factors.

The thing is that racism and sexism aren't a mental disorder, they're a culture that one chooses to be part of.

I am...and been ridiculously busy lately....
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/film/2019/oct/04/joker-the-incels-the-incitement-the-ending-discuss-with-spoilers

This guardian article confirms the media bias im talking about...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

That's an opinion piece. Opinions are NEVER biased. Opinions are the truth! #1984

Yes. Opinions...but an opinion that clearly fits comfortably into the overall bias of the Guardian. That was kinda the whole point of the thread. I can dig up a dozen more examples of media outlets attempting to lecture us on morality rather than critiquing the quality of the film...kinda a waste of time with you people though. The brainwashing is too deep.

The fact that you'd need to dig up dozens of examples for us, rather than these op-eds being something we're already choosing to read, kinda undercuts your point here, don'tcha think?

No, the point was that the majority of film critics are full of shit. They are judging films with virtue points. Architecture critics aren’t far behind

That shit article was a good example of that.

You guys are doing a shitty job of arguing on this thread. Worse than usual.

I'm not really arguing anything - just pointing out that you came in and made a thread apropos of nothing as if it was a response to something. You made a point but you're pretending it's a counterpoint. You're throwing a tantrum about what you perceive is other people throwing a tantrum. You seem very affected by people you perceive to be too delicate. Every accusation here is an admission.