First off let me say I am no architect, just a drafter who gave up on architecture school ( Not gona go into this lol).I work for a material supplier doing Cast stone shop drawings / Project management. I'm having trouble trying to explain things to my boss who simply does not understand.
when I started here there were three of us in the drafting office. For one reason or another now it just me. when the others were here we had a pretty good internal review process and split the work load pretty evenly.
Now its just me and I feel overwhelmed. My responsibility's are to take a given set of construction documents and turn them into cast stone shop drawings IE: Dividing up stone into workable lengths, dimensioning, showing placement and anchors, Submit these drawing to architects for approval, Fix any issues, Create Shop tickets and put into production then I become a sort of project manager by fielding phone calls about production time and any issues that come up in the field or with the drawings.
At any given time I have about 10 jobs I need to start shop drawings on (these cant sit around and need to be submitted in two weeks from award date) another 5 or so approved drawings that need shop tickets ( these cant wait or production stops and we don't make any money) and there is always a few revisions that come back here and there (witch most clients want back yesterday)
My problems start at the start of the shop drawings. These can be anywhere from a wall with a cap on it ( 1000 dollar job) to an entire high school complete with stone water table, window sills, columns etc...etc.(100,000 dollar job) . now the small projects are no big deal I can knock out about 5 to 10 of these a day complete with shop ticket and all. The larger ones can take anywhere from a day to a week.
On the larger ones the issue for me is re-creating the drawings (elevations, plan views, sections, details). To re draw an entire high school for example within a day or so completely accurate to an 1/16" is killing me. It takes two or three days to re draw and only about a day or so to detail the stone once I have the building outline done. Sometimes I can get cad files but MOST of the time I don't either due to the architect now wanting to share his files with us (where not a sub contractor but a supplier) due to us not being in the project chain of contractors and subs. Or my boss simply refuses to even ask for them.
I find my self having to rush and shove things out the door, I always need to be drawing and don't have much time for reviewing drawings add to the fact that we have no QC/QA in place but my boss telling me things have to be correct from the get go cause that's my job witch I agree with but I need some slack. every dozen or so jobs something happens usually miscount of stone pcs, a piece being mislabeled, or the most rare the stone just being flat out wrong and cant be installed. this can snowball quickly when one stone is 5/8 of an inch off and there are 100 of them
Is it too much to ask to have someone help review these jobs before they go to the shop? as in the drawings have been submitted and approved and shop tickets have been made and I would just like someone else with a fresh set of eyes to simply spot check dimensions and labels and to give the stones a quick count before we go into production with would cut most of the little errors. we used to do this between us three drafters but as I said its just me now. My boss is flat out annoyed when I tell him someone should look over this 100,000 dollar job just to make sure things are on the up and up cause I simply do not have time. I have to start the next project or deal with a field issue that some mason is calling every 20mins about.
Making me reasonable for my work I agree with but mistakes happen. but putting the weight of the entire job and by extension the company on my shoulders for 15 bucks an hour while my boss plays at his ranch 4 days a week and getting literally screamed at if anything is messed up makes me want to go find another job.
Rant over.
P.S. sorry if this is sloppy I wrote it on my 10 mins or so I have for lunch
The last eight words of your main post are your most succinct and most lucid. You are correct, that amount of stress is not worth the money offered. Given our current construction climate, there must be other jobs available in your area. I would imagine solid drafters that can put together a good set of shop drawings are in high demand--for all sorts of trades. Best of luck. (And BTW, require that the GC seek out cad files from the architect--no sense in you redrawing it).
Yea I know.another job is in my future. This place has put a dent in my self confidence. And the fear of not having a job and the kids not eating is keeping me here. I was more just seeing if I'm just being a baby or the work load is really that crazy compared to other places. Thanks for taking the time to read my rant.
May 1, 19 6:52 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
where are you located? Anyways, not relevant but we often get clients to pick certain companies because we know they have better shop drawings than others. We've even blacklisted some.
$15 an hour? for fuck's sake... there is much better out there. That's probably where the other people jumped ship to.
Do the shops not go back to the architect for final verification? I always verify joints, piece count, anchor details as well as basic conformance to design intent when I review precast or stone shop drawings.
I do know that the last stone shops I reviewed had some terrible language on them stating that any revisions to be charged extra and that dimensions were to be confirmed by arch and so on. The sub threatened the female PM so I returned all their shops with large red "x" all over their fake legal speak and told them I would not review until they A: removed the notes, and B: verified all dimensions themselves on site. Took 3, maybe 4 revisions. This is one reason why I never give out CAD for shops. We even have that info up-front in our specs.
May 1, 19 7:19 pm ·
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GridBubbles
Question... maybe I'm misinterpreting this but do you not give out CAD drawings because you want the shop to review the actual dimensions on site in the event that the drawings and built form have discrepancies?
May 2, 19 6:07 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
There are always descrpancies. Arch drawings show intent. It is the responsibility of the trades to measure.
May 2, 19 6:19 pm ·
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joseffischer
Agreed, I was always taught not to give out CAD... then you get back your own files. I don't care how much time it saves when it defeats the entire purpose.
On that note, we're asking for shops less and less. I don't check for quantities and I don't check for dimensions. The theory was that everyone would draw out the job at the next level so that you don't get that sill 5/8" too short 100 times, but if the manufacturer/supplier is just copy pasting anyway, and has to correct/replace the stone if they mess up anyway, and I'm not being paid to find their "verify-in-field" mistakes, then why waste the time?
May 3, 19 9:28 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Joe, I ran a construction kick-off meeting yesterday and I made it very clear to the GC that when it comes down to SD review... they better make sure they get all their pieces together or else it's a rejection within 5min of email receipt. I made that comment specifically for WC partitions which have been the worst trades to review in my experience.
I worked for a while at a similar place. It had its good points but was toxic, to say the least. I was not a drafter but had to run interference and clean-up between the boss and the drafter. You can only "manage up" so much--it sounds like you should get your resume and portfolio tuned up ASAP. The skills you learned there will be useful elsewhere.
So we are a supplier we don't do any field verification. that's up the the masons who are under contact with the GC and what not. I ask the architect within my shop drawing questions about missing dimensions as well as note any changes I might have to make from the original CD's that don't conform to the cast institute specs and suggested guidelines. I wish all architects review like you do. I can't tell you how many times I send submittals with cloulded questions that come back approved. when clearly no body looked at the things or they think the mason is going to address the questions and they never even look at the drawing untill I give them setting drawing they just forward everything to the architect who may or may not help you.cause in the end it falls in us anyway for any mistakes.mostly due to my boss does not want to piss off our masons for fear of losing future work.
As far as your stance on not sharing CAD files I get why you don't want to share your work. You want to make sure the people really know the design intent by repeating back to you with detail. But just basic shell drawings help out allot in terms of turn around time and level of detail. Think of it this way I can spend three days redrawing your desgin depending on the quality of your drawings and one day detailing the look of the cast stone or you could give basic shells of elevations and the brick lines of the building and I can spend three days detailing your stone. Just food for thought
May 1, 19 7:53 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
You make good points and regarding the CAD distribution, you may take the extra time to make a kick-ass package but I guarantee that 4.9 out 5 guys out there will just slap their notes on the CAD from the arch, pocket the extra cash, and move on to the next job. The rest of your comment is pretty damn good tho.
May 1, 19 8:05 pm ·
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joseffischer
So, workflow and Quality Control comment:
1. Drafter draws shops
2. In-house QC (not present in this case)
3. Mason reviews (instead just passes it along)
4. GC reviews (instead just puts the stamp saying they reviewed and passes along)
5. Architect reviews (typically reviews, but puts caveats saying dimensions and quantities are not their responsibility)
You should go back into an architecture firm. Be honest about dropping out of school. You know a lot now based on experience and if you have the motivation you could have a very successful job within a firm. You might not ever own it but you can bring a lot of value within the design documentation process and could be compensated accordingly.
Jonathan is completely right. We have a career draftsman at my firm who is highly respected. No formal architectural education, but he can detail pretty much anything we ask him to. He has a background very similar to OP's; worked his way through a few carpentry shops (even had his own for awhile) and just got tired of being on his feet all day. Everyone here values his input and expertise. I think he gets paid better, the hours are better, guaranteed lunch times, site visits, and insurance.
You'll be very welcome, appreciated and paid accordingly at any respectable architecture office with your eye for detail and precision, screw your boss...no wonder everybody left.
May 3, 19 3:33 pm ·
·
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Shop drawings take too long and no help in sight
First off let me say I am no architect, just a drafter who gave up on architecture school ( Not gona go into this lol).I work for a material supplier doing Cast stone shop drawings / Project management. I'm having trouble trying to explain things to my boss who simply does not understand.
when I started here there were three of us in the drafting office. For one reason or another now it just me. when the others were here we had a pretty good internal review process and split the work load pretty evenly.
Now its just me and I feel overwhelmed. My responsibility's are to take a given set of construction documents and turn them into cast stone shop drawings IE: Dividing up stone into workable lengths, dimensioning, showing placement and anchors, Submit these drawing to architects for approval, Fix any issues, Create Shop tickets and put into production then I become a sort of project manager by fielding phone calls about production time and any issues that come up in the field or with the drawings.
At any given time I have about 10 jobs I need to start shop drawings on (these cant sit around and need to be submitted in two weeks from award date) another 5 or so approved drawings that need shop tickets ( these cant wait or production stops and we don't make any money) and there is always a few revisions that come back here and there (witch most clients want back yesterday)
My problems start at the start of the shop drawings. These can be anywhere from a wall with a cap on it ( 1000 dollar job) to an entire high school complete with stone water table, window sills, columns etc...etc.(100,000 dollar job) . now the small projects are no big deal I can knock out about 5 to 10 of these a day complete with shop ticket and all. The larger ones can take anywhere from a day to a week.
On the larger ones the issue for me is re-creating the drawings (elevations, plan views, sections, details). To re draw an entire high school for example within a day or so completely accurate to an 1/16" is killing me. It takes two or three days to re draw and only about a day or so to detail the stone once I have the building outline done. Sometimes I can get cad files but MOST of the time I don't either due to the architect now wanting to share his files with us (where not a sub contractor but a supplier) due to us not being in the project chain of contractors and subs. Or my boss simply refuses to even ask for them.
I find my self having to rush and shove things out the door, I always need to be drawing and don't have much time for reviewing drawings add to the fact that we have no QC/QA in place but my boss telling me things have to be correct from the get go cause that's my job witch I agree with but I need some slack. every dozen or so jobs something happens usually miscount of stone pcs, a piece being mislabeled, or the most rare the stone just being flat out wrong and cant be installed. this can snowball quickly when one stone is 5/8 of an inch off and there are 100 of them
Is it too much to ask to have someone help review these jobs before they go to the shop? as in the drawings have been submitted and approved and shop tickets have been made and I would just like someone else with a fresh set of eyes to simply spot check dimensions and labels and to give the stones a quick count before we go into production with would cut most of the little errors. we used to do this between us three drafters but as I said its just me now. My boss is flat out annoyed when I tell him someone should look over this 100,000 dollar job just to make sure things are on the up and up cause I simply do not have time. I have to start the next project or deal with a field issue that some mason is calling every 20mins about.
Making me reasonable for my work I agree with but mistakes happen. but putting the weight of the entire job and by extension the company on my shoulders for 15 bucks an hour while my boss plays at his ranch 4 days a week and getting literally screamed at if anything is messed up makes me want to go find another job.
Rant over.
P.S. sorry if this is sloppy I wrote it on my 10 mins or so I have for lunch
Yeah so go get a different job. Sounds like you have transferable skills. That doesn't sound healthy at all.
Second this.
The last eight words of your main post are your most succinct and most lucid. You are correct, that amount of stress is not worth the money offered. Given our current construction climate, there must be other jobs available in your area. I would imagine solid drafters that can put together a good set of shop drawings are in high demand--for all sorts of trades. Best of luck. (And BTW, require that the GC seek out cad files from the architect--no sense in you redrawing it).
Yea I know.another job is in my future. This place has put a dent in my self confidence. And the fear of not having a job and the kids not eating is keeping me here. I was more just seeing if I'm just being a baby or the work load is really that crazy compared to other places. Thanks for taking the time to read my rant.
where are you located? Anyways, not relevant but we often get clients to pick certain companies because we know they have better shop drawings than others. We've even blacklisted some.
put in your two weeks notice bud. There are better places out there to work for... and they are not paying 15 bucks either. Best of luck
Get that next gig first. No sense jumping ship if you have nowhere to land.
$15 an hour? for fuck's sake... there is much better out there. That's probably where the other people jumped ship to.
Do the shops not go back to the architect for final verification? I always verify joints, piece count, anchor details as well as basic conformance to design intent when I review precast or stone shop drawings.
I do know that the last stone shops I reviewed had some terrible language on them stating that any revisions to be charged extra and that dimensions were to be confirmed by arch and so on. The sub threatened the female PM so I returned all their shops with large red "x" all over their fake legal speak and told them I would not review until they A: removed the notes, and B: verified all dimensions themselves on site. Took 3, maybe 4 revisions. This is one reason why I never give out CAD for shops. We even have that info up-front in our specs.
Question... maybe I'm misinterpreting this but do you not give out CAD drawings because you want the shop to review the actual dimensions on site in the event that the drawings and built form have discrepancies?
There are always descrpancies. Arch drawings show intent. It is the responsibility of the trades to measure.
Agreed, I was always taught not to give out CAD... then you get back your own files. I don't care how much time it saves when it defeats the entire purpose.
On that note, we're asking for shops less and less. I don't check for quantities and I don't check for dimensions. The theory was that everyone would draw out the job at the next level so that you don't get that sill 5/8" too short 100 times, but if the manufacturer/supplier is just copy pasting anyway, and has to correct/replace the stone if they mess up anyway, and I'm not being paid to find their "verify-in-field" mistakes, then why waste the time?
Joe, I ran a construction kick-off meeting yesterday and I made it very clear to the GC that when it comes down to SD review... they better make sure they get all their pieces together or else it's a rejection within 5min of email receipt. I made that comment specifically for WC partitions which have been the worst trades to review in my experience.
I worked for a while at a similar place. It had its good points but was toxic, to say the least. I was not a drafter but had to run interference and clean-up between the boss and the drafter. You can only "manage up" so much--it sounds like you should get your resume and portfolio tuned up ASAP. The skills you learned there will be useful elsewhere.
So we are a supplier we don't do any field verification. that's up the the masons who are under contact with the GC and what not. I ask the architect within my shop drawing questions about missing dimensions as well as note any changes I might have to make from the original CD's that don't conform to the cast institute specs and suggested guidelines. I wish all architects review like you do. I can't tell you how many times I send submittals with cloulded questions that come back approved. when clearly no body looked at the things or they think the mason is going to address the questions and they never even look at the drawing untill I give them setting drawing they just forward everything to the architect who may or may not help you.cause in the end it falls in us anyway for any mistakes.mostly due to my boss does not want to piss off our masons for fear of losing future work.
As far as your stance on not sharing CAD files I get why you don't want to share your work. You want to make sure the people really know the design intent by repeating back to you with detail. But just basic shell drawings help out allot in terms of turn around time and level of detail. Think of it this way I can spend three days redrawing your desgin depending on the quality of your drawings and one day detailing the look of the cast stone or you could give basic shells of elevations and the brick lines of the building and I can spend three days detailing your stone. Just food for thought
You make good points and regarding the CAD distribution, you may take the extra time to make a kick-ass package but I guarantee that 4.9 out 5 guys out there will just slap their notes on the CAD from the arch, pocket the extra cash, and move on to the next job. The rest of your comment is pretty damn good tho.
So, workflow and Quality Control comment:
1. Drafter draws shops
2. In-house QC (not present in this case)
3. Mason reviews (instead just passes it along)
4. GC reviews (instead just puts the stamp saying they reviewed and passes along)
5. Architect reviews (typically reviews, but puts caveats saying dimensions and quantities are not their responsibility)
Talk about wasting everyone's time...
You should go back into an architecture firm. Be honest about dropping out of school. You know a lot now based on experience and if you have the motivation you could have a very successful job within a firm. You might not ever own it but you can bring a lot of value within the design documentation process and could be compensated accordingly.
Jonathan is completely right. We have a career draftsman at my firm who is highly respected. No formal architectural education, but he can detail pretty much anything we ask him to. He has a background very similar to OP's; worked his way through a few carpentry shops (even had his own for awhile) and just got tired of being on his feet all day. Everyone here values his input and expertise. I think he gets paid better, the hours are better, guaranteed lunch times, site visits, and insurance.
You'll be very welcome, appreciated and paid accordingly at any respectable architecture office with your eye for detail and precision, screw your boss...no wonder everybody left.
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