I wonder if any architecture school students are beneficiaries of this massive cheating scandal?
The fact that people pretended to need disability accommodation so they could then cheat their SAT scores upwards fills me with rage. I, and so many other parents, have worked hard to get accommodations for our kids who actually need them, and rich people just buy their way into accessibility.
I don't know what to do with how much anger I have about people cheating, just consistently looking for ways to benefits themselves while screwing over others. This scandal, the ARE cheaters, the fucking president's businesses....I'm feeling like there's no bottom.
I'd typically just say that the real world (ie. working world) will knock them on their gold-plated asses... but we all know most of these wankers will never actually work a real day. So, that just adds fuel to this multi-verse dumpster fire (patent pending).
But realistically speaking, what's the % of cheating wankers vs non-cheating wankers? (Not to be taken out of context, everyone can be a wanker). And more importantly, is this really a big problem? Plenty of people will weasel into or out of everything given the opportunity.
As for your prez's business, you're on your own with that one.
I don’t see a reason to believe there aren’t people in architecture programs that have done this. Having been on both sides (teaching/student) several people have made me raise questions
Mar 13, 19 9:52 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Not sure if you were around or remember, but we've had one active member who ranted on that he'd spent 10s of thousands of his parents' money on image consultants in order to get preferential treatment for studio placement. He was a blast but burned-out gloriously. So it happens even after the first bribe is paid apparently.
Mar 13, 19 9:55 am ·
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Anon_grad2.0
Casually browsing at the time. If I’m not mistaken we went to the same school (GSD), I cant remember.
Mar 13, 19 10:02 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Ding ding ding, that was the conclusion at the time. I believe the name was Kozumel, or something along those lines.
Mar 13, 19 10:10 am ·
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babyarchitect1
Although slightly different, there are foreign student's at my own arch school that their countries are paying for them to be there. Its completely out of the arch school hands and goes to the actual university. They know too because they cannot fail. They don't have to do much work nor show up for class.
I paid my way into a top school and cheated to graduate. After graduation, I was easily hired at starchitect firms through the school's alumni network.
Don't be upset, it's just how it works.
Mar 13, 19 10:13 am ·
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Gloominati
It seems to cause a lot of problems for you though, in terms of self-esteem and competence. Your post history here is full of laments on how you don't feel smart enough to do your job, and how you're too slow and not good at what you're doing, etc. You're living plagued by self-doubt and struggle to function in your career, because of how you got there. That's just how that works.
In the news about this latest SAT cheating scandal, it's been reported that some of the parents paid for their kids to have their test answers changed after the kids took the test, and did not want their kids to ever find out that they didn't really earn the high SAT scores on their own. Those parents wanted the kids to remain blissfully deluded, so they wouldn't face the problems you're having.
So Alina you don't care whether we live in a functioning society based on shared ethics? You're a Libertarian, too?
Mar 13, 19 10:28 am ·
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Non Sequitur
^ great one FormelyU.
AlinaF, the only one upset here is you. We know you cheated but we don't give a fuck. You're living through those consequences now in the real world because you didn't put in the time and effort to build up useful skills that carry-over into the workplace.
Mar 13, 19 10:29 am ·
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molten
Trying to determine if this is dripping with sarcasm, or serious.
..
Mar 13, 19 10:30 am ·
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Non Sequitur
^molten, mostly serious given AlinaF's comment history.
Mar 13, 19 10:31 am ·
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Dangermouse
well i worked my way into a top school and a starchitecture office, and thats also "just how it works". the pay to play kids are all hat, no cattle, and they last an appropriately (brief) period of time, before (apparently) living lives wracked with self loathing and doubt. karma, i guess.
Mar 13, 19 8:10 pm ·
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x-jla
Don’t drag libertarians into this Donna. I for one am for a meritocracy. Having grown up working class and poor...working through college...getting a 4.0gpa...getting into arch school...etc I also would feel cheated by people paying their way like this.
Mar 13, 19 9:25 pm ·
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x-jla
The idea that libertarianism would condone such obvious corruption is patently un true. No one should have any non-merit based advantage in college. My silence today was due to me staying home to take care of 2 sick toddlers.
Mar 13, 19 9:28 pm ·
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x-jla
Libertarian: I don’t think the govt should make a law banning people from calling their grandparents cunts. Leftist: libertarians think it’s ok to call your grandma a cunt.
I can't fathom a mindset that thinks it's OK to stomp on everyone else as long as you (Alina) get what you want. In fact it's not even just ok, it's "what successful people do". It's SOP.
I can't understand it.
How can you live with yourself knowing that you've achieved things through dishonest means? Like Formerlyunknown says, how do you consider yourself to *be* smart or talented when you didn't actually *do* anything that smart, talented people can do?
Jesus Christ. I mean, I haven't accomplished much but I am totally clear-minded about what I HAVE accomplished. And I know that people in my community think well of me *because* of what I've accomplished, not because they believe a pack of lies that could crumble down at any moment.
Mar 13, 19 10:33 am ·
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gibbost
I would assume it's based upon a life of entitlement. The satisfaction of a job well done or working hard to achieve goals is a feeling replaced by vanity, greed, and one-upmanship. If you're born into privilege, you'd have to hope the greatest thing to happen to you is getting kicked down in the dirt. Without that, the world is your oyster, and cheating on some entrance exams is hardly going to bother you--especially if you've been told all your life that you 'deserve this.'
This has been going on for years. It took other less blatant forms. Like Charles Kushner donating $2.5M to Harvard in the 90's. And his son Jared being admitted a couple years later. I have to assume that the children that benefit--at some point in their life--wonder if they could've made it on their own. What an empty existence that has to be.
Mar 13, 19 10:57 am ·
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Fruehling
I mean, I thought that was more blatant quid pro quo. It is just that those people didn't cheat on their taxes, or try to get the kids into the school without the Admin getting a piece. But when you try to skirt the IRS and the Admin, then you get caught. I've never been a teacher or coach, but I think it would seem they didn't break any laws, just ethical codes of conduct and duty of care.
It isn't just the rich people who are corrupt here. Coaches, Athletic Directors and others who are charged with upholding standards are the ones taking those rich fucker's kickbacks and bribes. And at the implicated universities the bribed are surely making fine salaries to begin with. Just a bunch of sleazy greedy fucks gaming an already fucked up situation.
Exactly. But in the meantime, I feel guilty if I toss an aluminum can into the trash instead of the recycle bin because I worry that my personal laziness will impact the entirety of society. Godammit.
I don't understand how people can live with themselves knowing they
faked and cheated their way there, and held back others by doing so.
But...
and I feel a little guilty admitting this... these kinds of stories
make me feel a little better about myself. I mean, finding out that
there are more and more cheaters all the time - it seems that those of
use who got there while following the rules are an ever-shrinking group -
an endangered species of the actually-qualified. It wouldn't have occurred to me to pay someone to take a test for me - because I think I'm smart enough that I wouldn't have trusted anyone to get a better score than I could get on my own. It wouldn't have occurred to me to pay someone to admit me to an elite school - I was qualified (and arrogant) enough to risk just... applying! There wasn't a reason to cheat when I got there because: it wasn't all that impossible to just do the work and pass the tests - and plus I wanted to learn stuff.
I feel genuinely sad for all the people who have no confidence in themselves or their kids to do things the right way, and I appreciate more that I'm lucky that I had to fend for myself. Being able to accomplish things on my own is a luxury that some parents don't give their kids.
Being able to accomplish things on my own is a luxury that some parents don't give their kids
Giving your kids the opportunity to fail--in a safe place, while they are young--is invaluable. Perhaps one of the most important things parents can do. Fighting the inclination to always protect your children is not easy--but you can sleep well at night knowing you've given them the tools to navigate the world.
One of my peers in grad school told me that I should go into doing architectural grad school applications for wealthy foreign students and said that they knew of people (them incl.) that had done that. I had accidentally given someone my paper for a theory class and found it had quickly been disseminated throughout the network and basically transcribed x10. I forget how much that they said that I could make but it was a lot. After that, I wondered how many students at my top grad school had paid for application material - there were a plethora of awkwardly unskilled people (I am no Zaha reincarnation myself) that had on point portfolios published to Issuu but in group work would have plans that must have been drawn in illustrator/didn't know Rhino/Sketchup/Revit.
This scandal strikes me as a much better coordinated, cross-sectored, far-reaching racket (literally) of corrupt activities that go on all the time in smaller ways. It's like what Starbucks is to people drinking coffee.
It sounds like most students were fraudulently characterized as accomplished and recruited athletes, so the chances they were finagling to get into architecture programs is probably nil.
Mar 13, 19 1:48 pm ·
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Gloominati
Yeah... they're probably not directly stealing architecture school spots.... but it's still distressing that they're taking spots away from deserving kids who might potentially actually want to go to class and get a college education. Hearing about the actress who paid half a million to get her kid into USC (which has not all THAT slim an acceptance rate in the first place - it's not Juilliard!) and meanwhile her kid's been on YouTube saying she doesn't think she'll actually attend classes very much since she doesn't care about college anyway except for the parties and game days...
It's sad that she's taking up a spot, and sad that so much money is going into someone's pocket for such a frivolous purpose when it could be used for better causes. The kid doesn't care about college, so all this is about is the parent's ego trip in getting her kid in by whatever means possible.
I remember catching a student cheating in my arch design studio class. A student submitted the same exact project as another student did the year before, all the drawings were exactly the same, same photos of models everything. I informed the administration at the school and never saw or heard from either student again.
Another time a student of mine received a rough review from one of the guest crits in my studio and then her father who is a known consultant in the city looked up my profile on linkedin and complained to my previous colleagues I used to work with in an architecture practice and even threatened them that he will go to the dean and reverse his donation to the school. He wanted to make sure I would find out from them.
Make no mistake- this shit happens in arch school also- albeit in different forms.
"...even threatened them that he will go to the dean and reverse his donation to the school."
This is the specter that so often haunts design programs. Faculty don't dare give accurate evaluations (read steep grade inflation) for fear of upsetting a parent that the administration (dept./college/institution) sees as a potential donor.
The only shocking part is how elaborate this network was. Sure, for laundering and extortion operations, you need a large support crew, but whenever I am bribing, or taking bribes, I prefer not many witnesses.
Making it an extensive bribe club social makes these people not seem very smart. Perhaps same reason their offspring couldn't get into good schools.
Born in 1945, Francois de Menil is an Award winning Architect, who has led a small design studio for 22 years.He has provided architectural and interior design services for a variety of institutional, residential, retail and corporate office projects. Mr. de Menil founded his architecture firm in 1991 after receiving his Bachelor of Architecture degree from the Irwin S. Chanin School of Architecture at the Cooper Union in 1987. Prior to founding his own firm, de Menil worked in the offices of Richard Meier & Partners and Kohn Pedersen Fox.
I've never liked him, specifically because of the "rumor" that he paid substantial sums to get into Cooper.
The ringleader says he assisted 750 families, but the only two I've heard of so far are these two movie stars. Does anyone know if others have yet been identified by name?
One more needle getting dangerously close to the bubble that "higher" education has become. This is going to be delicious!
Thanks. This sounds like just the beginning. The lawyer could be disbarred and the two actresses have destroyed their careers (one would assume). The stupidity is breathtaking.
archinect showcased a couple people I know for a fact got a huge leg up from their parents and parents’ connections. I went to school with people who obviously came from money and somehow got a job at a big name firm in spite of being pretty mediocre students.
I also have seen it a few different offices - people who are only there because they know someone.
I came from a pretty low-income community and went to an elite school. Not many people from my HS went on to college. My ideas of college being a meritocracy were destroyed that first month. These kids weren’t any smarter than my friends back home. They just happened to be born into better circumstances.
Mar 13, 19 9:18 pm ·
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x-jla
Dude, when I first started college I remember feeling so out of place. The kids all spoke with a fake ness...like they were trying to sound smart. There was this passive aggressive way of being that was very foreign to me. It was for sure a culture shock. Most of my peers from my neighborhood were far more clever and had more life experience...they seemed older by a decade, even though they were the same age as the people I was in school with. It was a good school, but no Ivy League...I can’t even imagine something like Yale.
Mar 14, 19 1:58 am ·
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joseffischer
Ding ding, a sobering experience for sure. Meritocracies don't last long.
Mar 14, 19 9:14 am ·
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thisisnotmyname
What ruined it for me was realizing how much more rigorous the courses were at the humble state school I went to versus the elite private school across town that some of my friends attended.
Mar 14, 19 9:37 am ·
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x-jla
Very true! Actually the hardest classes by far
were ones I took at a community college...
note that this cheating seems to have been done by parents apparently without the knowledge or consent of the children. many seem to have gone to some efforts to hide the fraud from their children, reasonably recognizing that the sense of being a fraud would otherwise poison their development.
i think all parents feel an strong instinct to privilege their own children- most of us are decent people though who suppress the urge to tell our children's teachers why X should be allowed to skip nap time and we know not scream in rage at the toddler who 'fights' with our child at the playground even though we want to.
what's appalling is that these people are all already rich. what marginal difference is it going to make to your child to enroll at a university with a famous name, when those parents already can offer all the money and connections any child would need to get ahead at life? isn't being born rich and well connected good enough anymore?
i think this is a symptom of the disease of parents viewing their children as their own creations, a validation of the parents 'goodness' and skill at nurturing talent. when you and your peers can buy whatever you want, the only way to get one up on everyone is to show off your superiority as a parent. a daughter at yale is like the pritzker prize of parenting.
this is really an absurd and disappointing outcome of social competitiveness and showing off.
Mar 13, 19 10:24 pm ·
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joseffischer
I totally feel you on the "already rich" comments. For the money these people were throwing away, they should just have trusts and invest for their kids... I mean I'm sure they have money for that too, but why pay for a piece of paper you already know isn't worth anything if the kids aren't going to apply themselves anyway and they already have all the wealth and connections needed. Of course I don't know the rules of the rich, maybe it's a requirement to have graduated from an Ivy to continue getting those connections.
Because he's saying "Crime is bad, of course, but my rich white friends shouldn't be punished when *they* do it."
Mar 14, 19 1:11 pm ·
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bowling_ball
Seriously, what is that? "I'm friends with this felon, but they didn't mean to get caught so we should probably just ignore it."
Mar 14, 19 2:38 pm ·
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x-jla
Obviously he’s going to defend his friends. Plenty of poor people do the same when a friend is arrested. Sometimes for really heinous crimes. This is not shocking.
Mar 14, 19 2:41 pm ·
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geezertect
Donna, you're right. I read it too quickly. He seems to be saying that it's a slimy process, but they are lovely people who had a momentary lapse of judgement. Sorry, David, deciding to bribe your kid's way into school isn't a "momentary" lapse. It takes a fair amount of planning with plenty of opportunities to come to your senses.
Mar 14, 19 3:00 pm ·
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geezertect
jla-x: Poor people bribe their friends' way out of jail? How do they do that? They don't have any money, by definition. If you mean jumping bail, they haven't been acquitted or released from prosecution. An arrest warrant is still issued.
Mar 14, 19 3:10 pm ·
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x-jla
Comments were about coming to defense of friends despite allegations, not bribing way out of jail.
Mar 14, 19 3:27 pm ·
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x-jla
Donna asserted that rich white people feel other rich white people are exempt from jail based on a friend defending their friend. That’s an assumption to fit a narrative. The reality is that friends often defend friends. It’s silly to make that leap of confirmation bias.
Mar 14, 19 3:30 pm ·
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x-jla
*rich white friends....why not just say friends....why bring in race. It’s annoying
Mar 14, 19 3:41 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
Mamet, is a cunt.
Mar 14, 19 4:16 pm ·
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x-jla
“That a parent’s zeal for her children’s future may have overcome her better judgment for a moment is not only unfortunate, it is, I know we parents would agree, a universal phenomenon.” Sounds like a reasonable assessment. Everyone would rig things in favor of their offspring. Kinda the reason evolution works. This isn’t unique to the rich either. People use connections to benefit their kids. You know how many friends I had with an uncle in the union that was given an impossible to get job sweeping sidewalks for 100k a year or something ridiculous
Mar 14, 19 7:22 pm ·
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x-jla
They obviously did something wrong and illegal...but this isn’t the crime of the century like people are saying. The fact that celebrities were involved seems to be why the media is making it so big. Which ironically is part of the problem.
Mar 14, 19 7:27 pm ·
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SneakyPete
I'm not stunned by either
Mamets idiocy or that you'd be defending it.
Mar 15, 19 11:42 am ·
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x-jla
I’m not defending it you moron. Read better.
Mar 15, 19 11:50 am ·
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x-jla
You either have a low iq, or intentionally fail to see the nuance in things.
Mar 15, 19 11:51 am ·
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x-jla
Framing the issue as rich vs poor, white vs other, etc is reducing it to politics as usual. It’s about a scam perpetrated by rich people. Scams by poor people happen all the time. I’m actually a victim of one that happened last week with some toothless meth heads and my insurance...
Mar 15, 19 11:55 am ·
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x-jla
Everyone is cheating the system. That statement Doesn’t defend the cheaters, just expands the demographics to a more reality based view vs a ideological one like you seem to have.
Mar 15, 19 11:57 am ·
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SneakyPete
I enjoy how you usually end up proving my point while strenuously trying to prove it isn't true. Saves me so much time and typing.
Mar 15, 19 11:59 am ·
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SneakyPete
I less enjoy how you constantly set up a false narrative based on assumptions about my beliefs.
Also unsurprised that you'd use something as misleading as "iq" to try and attack me. You do realize that iq is pretty much bullshit, right?
Mar 15, 19 12:01 pm ·
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x-jla
Didn’t get as much attention...but like I said, everyone is gaming the system
Mar 15, 19 12:02 pm ·
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x-jla
Everyone seems to get more “outraged” when rich people do stuff. Seems like part of the is motivated by jealousy and a desire to see the successful fail. Part is also leftist confirmation bias.
Mar 15, 19 12:11 pm ·
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SneakyPete
Everyone seems to use terms like “everyone” when demonizing people who don't agree with them. Seems like part of this is motivated by ignorance and a desire to be the lone voice of reason. Part is also libertarian delusional
bullshit.
Mar 15, 19 12:53 pm ·
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x-jla
Right wing confirmation bias surrounding the Jussie Smollett hoax was similar in that a singular case was expanded to cast suspicion on an entire class of people- hate crime victims. This is the medias game. Political
narratives. Just saying...treat the case as a case, not a symptom of an entire class of people.
Mar 15, 19 12:56 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
Rich people, as a "class" of people, are first, not a protected class, and b, are fucking future embers of history. come at me aynn.
Mar 15, 19 1:21 pm ·
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SneakyPete
"Everyone seems to get more “outraged” when rich people do stuff. Seems like part of the (SIC) is motivated by jealousy and a desire to see the successful fail. Part is also leftist confirmation bias."
"...treat the case as a case, not a symptom of an entire class of people."
Mar 15, 19 1:28 pm ·
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x-jla
The reaction to the case IS politically motivated though. You can have an isolated incident, followed a reaction that is framed to fit a certain narrative. Look pretty much every news story.
Mar 15, 19 1:47 pm ·
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x-jla
“Future embers of history”? Nuff said. If that’s true we are all future embers of history.
A little off topic but I once had a Spanish friend who told me in Spain if one studied architecture at a "private" university they looked stupid bc they had to pay to study whereas you can go to places like Superior Technical School of Architecture of Madrid or ETSM for free. Thus having a private name for an institution on your degree is looked down upon. By being a free or almost free uni, somewhat bypasses this country club type of education where inevitably bribing or "donating" to the institutions helps students get in.
Another problem with this American country club style education is that by letting ppl get in bc of legacy or there parents donate to the school effectively waters down the quality of students in the place, and kind drags down the schools reputation.
Mar 14, 19 10:40 am ·
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Non Sequitur
I've had a similar conversation with arch students in Lisbon.
Mar 14, 19 10:52 am ·
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randomised
It's totally on topic and very true, gotta love socialism!
Mar 14, 19 11:12 am ·
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geezertect
In this country, an Ivy League education has traditionally been a social standing credential more than a marker of intelligence. Prior to the GI bill, it was really just a finishing school for the eastern elite. Being private and expensive kept out the riff raff.
It's a little more meritocratic now, although this scandal may reveal just how rigged it still is.
Mar 14, 19 12:06 pm ·
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citizen
Riff-raff both outside and inside those hallowed halls.
Mar 14, 19 2:11 pm ·
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geezertect
I should have put riff-raff in quotes. The Ivy League types 100 years ago regarded anybody without old money and an ancestor on the Mayflower as riff raff.
Mar 14, 19 3:20 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I have a dime from the 1950's and am descended from a 15th century Swiss Baron! Riff raff and a half maybe...
Mar 14, 19 4:49 pm ·
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geezertect
My parents used Mayflower Van Lines when they moved. I wonder if that counts.
Mar 14, 19 5:39 pm ·
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Steeplechase
This scandal involves state schools.
Mar 15, 19 8:31 am ·
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archinet
yes it does but the issue is more exasperated at private institutions
Parent's should have just donated to the University like everybody else to assure their kids get in!!! I know people personally where their donations to the University come a long way making things happen. Sad but true!
Mar 14, 19 1:21 pm ·
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thisisnotmyname
Indeed. Using the donation route, no laws would have been broken.
Since the kids who got in are apparently doing ok in their studies you could make a case for doing away with Admissions altogether and having a lottery for everyone who wants in. Of course in that case the colleges couldn't play social justice warrior and make the selections that way either.
Where is your source for the kids are doing ok in their studies? AFAIK almost one of the kids' names have been released.
Mar 14, 19 1:56 pm ·
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x-jla
Yeah, I was curious as to why those on here longing for a meritocracy weren’t outraged on the Asian quotas at Harvard?
Mar 14, 19 2:05 pm ·
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x-jla
I shouldn’t assume your weren’t...were you all outraged about that as I was?
Mar 14, 19 2:07 pm ·
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x-jla
Isn’t it too early in the year for crickets?
Mar 14, 19 2:19 pm ·
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geezertect
I'm outraged. There is a lawsuit pending against one of the big snot schools by Asian plaintiffs alleging discrimination. I hope they prevail.
Mar 14, 19 3:31 pm ·
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x-jla
Me too.
Mar 14, 19 3:32 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
The Asian lawsuit is a fucking canard, Trojan Horse, all in the service of wypipo. Stop playing yourselves.
Mar 15, 19 1:41 pm ·
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x-jla
Right...because Asians do well mostly because of a strong family structure, emphasis on education, and culture of “tightening their bootstraps”. You know Trojan horse tactics by whites to make America look possible if you work hard and study more than grieves
"Its opponents charge that the case is not even about Asian Americans at Harvard; rather, they say it is an issue that has been co-opted by conservative activists whose real goal is ending race-conscious admissions policies that give minority students a better shot at attending universities like Harvard. Supporters on both sides charge the other with racism."
Mar 15, 19 2:12 pm ·
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x-jla
The lefts racism shows with this case. They don’t want minorities to succeed. They want a cause to structure their white hero narrative around.
Mar 15, 19 2:13 pm ·
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x-jla
There is a difference between weighing hardships based on race/economics vs creating a negative racial quota. One Creates an advantage the other a disadvantage.
Mar 15, 19 2:22 pm ·
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SneakyPete
You're further proof that libertarianism is just shitbag conservatism with an even greater superiority complex.
Mar 15, 19 4:14 pm ·
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x-jla
Because I am libertarianism? That doesn’t make any sense.
Mar 15, 19 7:12 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
You arreeee doomb. Systemic racism is a white peeple problem. Not a lefts racism, whatevs da fucks that means.
Mar 15, 19 8:35 pm ·
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x-jla
Racism shows itself on the right and left differently. That’s what it means.
Mar 15, 19 8:49 pm ·
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SneakyPete
Racism shows itself pretty normally around these parts, I'd say. Nothing special at this forum.
Donna, There have been several stories about the classmates of many of these students being upset with them for receiving help. Other stories were about the colleges deciding whether to expel the students or not. Haven't heard about any students cratering grade-wise. Heavens knows there are enough puff majors to enable almost anyone to graduate once they get in.
Mar 14, 19 2:46 pm ·
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x-jla
True. There seems to be a huge contradiction in those screaming for income equality and also for meritocracy. You CANT have both. If school was actually designed so that only a really smart and studious minority got through the degree would be worth something and there would be even greater income inequality. Alternatively you can make college for everyone, devalue it, and create a slew of equally unemployable people. This fiasco seems to rely on the latter otherwise admission would mean nothing as these kids would fail out any way
Volunteer I haven't heard stories of the kids' cratering grade-wise at the schools either but honestly I've hardly heard *any* stories about the kids at all. I feel like there's been an effort in the media - especially since some of these students didn't even KNOW that their parents were cheating for them! - to not name the names of the kids who benefited, so I have no idea from any news source how well or poorly any of them are doing. I honestly feel sadness for any kids who thought they scored high on the SAT and just 48 hours ago learned through the news that their parents' don't have faith in their intelligence. Jesus.
Mar 14, 19 4:12 pm ·
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Gloominati
In past admissions scandals in the Ivies it's also been the case that the students haven't been terrible students with dismal grades. There was the guy who got into Yale in the 90s with doctored community college transcripts (stamped with the bottom of a beer bottle) and fabricated references from non-existent faculty. And the guy who scammed Princeton TWICE with two different fake personas (and got through at least a whole semester on campus the 2nd time before anyone recognized him from the first scam). And the woman who went to Columbia and Cal State Fullerton using the stolen identity of a missing person. And several others.
NONE of these people were caught or suspected because of poor academic performance. They weren't all stellar students, but they weren't flunking out either. One was caught because he confessed to a roommate, one was recognized by a former classmate, one drew scrutiny of fellow frat members because he had made them angry by flaunting rules, one was caught by inconsistent paperwork for athletic eligibility... One wonders how many more scammers there are, current and former, who just weren't ever caught, and did just fine blending in as at least mediocre students if not better. There's really no reason to think that most of these scammer-parents' kids wouldn't do just fine - especially if they didn't know what their parents did - then they wouldn't even be carrying around the self-doubt of knowing they got in fraudulently.
Mar 14, 19 5:10 pm ·
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midlander
here's one, who was already instagram famous if that counts
Mar 15, 19 1:17 am ·
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midlander
https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/3/14/18266117/olivia-jade-giannulli-lori-loughlin-daughter-usc-college-scandal she has some good quotes about going to school because her parents insisted that are ironic now. actually if people are willing to pay 500k+ to ensure their child who has no intent to attend class or try at all will still get in, maybe schools should just sell sponsorship. as in, sponsor 5 poor students to attend, get a free spot for your child. it's seems grossly unfair but it also gives a wide range of people what they want in an open and transparent way.
I think that a big part of the problem is the inflated importance we place on university degrees in particular, and graduation from "elite" universities in particular.
In the case of architecture, I see university as a place where you go to spend a few years thinking about architecture, before you start your real education, which is spending several years under the mentorship of a good architect.
I think the profession should reinstate a path for licensure which bypasses university altogether, replacing it with an apprenticeship.
As far as "elite" schools, we've had staff who graduated from second and third tier state colleges who were light-years ahead of staff who went to Harvard GSD. And a lot less attitude.
Mar 14, 19 2:58 pm ·
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x-jla
That leads to a different form of elitism where the well connected have a leg up
Mar 14, 19 3:00 pm ·
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TIQM
How so?
Mar 14, 19 3:01 pm ·
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x-jla
Those with family connects get the apprenticeships. In this profession it’s very clear that connections are way more beneficial than wealth. I do support that pathway, but I don’t think it will lead to anything closer to meritocracy. The only way to get closer to that is to eliminate education and apprenticeship...make a harder test...possibly a probation period where you can do certain types of work (which is already allowed anyway).
Mar 14, 19 3:05 pm ·
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thisisnotmyname
@Erik, in my experience, about 50% of Ivy grads are top notch in the workplace and the other 50% have attitudes and are pretty useless in an office setting.
Mar 14, 19 5:44 pm ·
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TIQM
Sounds like about what you'd expect from the general population, then.
Mar 14, 19 5:50 pm ·
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thisisnotmyname
The useless subset of ivy kids have an arrogance that I have never encountered in the general population.
How else are the rich going to advance? Certainly not on merit ...
Mar 15, 19 9:18 am ·
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curtkram
if there is one group that really needs a leg up, it's the rich. i really feel bad for how victimized they are. to paraphrase the president, it's a very scary time for rich people in america.
How about Elizabeth Warren claiming to be native American in order to piggy back into a cushy Harvard faculty gig? Ya think Harvard probably knew she wasn't really a Cherokee despite those high cheek bones?
Mar 15, 19 6:14 pm ·
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x-jla
I thought people can identify as anything now? I was bout to identify as a 5yo and wreck some toddlers in soccer.
Mar 15, 19 7:18 pm ·
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SneakyPete
durrrhurrrrr making light of identity is fun durrrhurrrrrrr
Mar 15, 19 8:20 pm ·
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x-jla
Finding those points where flawed liberal logic breaks down is fun...why can’t she identify as a Native American?
Mar 15, 19 8:53 pm ·
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OneLostArchitect
So out of Elizabeth Warren, Shaun King, and Rachel Dolezal who is telling the truth? I want to identify myself as a unicorn.
Mar 16, 19 11:33 am ·
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SneakyPete
So out if billions of people you have three examples you are using to justify genuine cruelty and callousness. Good job, I guess?
Mar 16, 19 1:10 pm ·
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x-jla
I want everyone to be happy. Identify as you please. I truly believe in individuality, so live as you want. Just don’t try to use your identity to scam the system like Warren...
Mar 16, 19 1:26 pm ·
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x-jla
If Rachel Dolezal said, “hey I’m genetically white, but feel most comfortable like this...” no one would care. If a trans person said “hey, I’m a biological male, but identify as a female” more power to ya. When society says “that trans person IS an actual female and if you don’t believe so you are a terrible person...” then there is a problem of overreach. That’s when trans mma fighters pummel biological women, or dominate in power lifting...true story. When you ask society to accept your reality as the reality, vs society accepting your reality as your reality. A Society that respects individuality must accept your reality and provide equal rights always so that you can live your best life.
Mar 16, 19 1:36 pm ·
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curtkram
warren believed she had native american ancestry because that's what her family told her.
Mar 16, 19 2:11 pm ·
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OneLostArchitect
Many more Pete... these are just notable individuals that changed their indentity and cheated the system. They are not the only ones. Listen... I have no problem with whatever people want to indetify with.... but it’s when people do so and take advantage from those that are for actually African American and or Native Indian. That’s when I have a problem with it.
I was reading a bit more about this and, surprise, this all came to light because one of the bribing parents was under indictment for securities fraud and was looking for a way to lighten his sentence. And so, like a good American, he blew his whistle on the person he was bribing. It all unraveled from there. If you aren't cheating. You aren't trying.
Every man for himself ... until he gets caught. LOL
Mar 15, 19 3:34 pm ·
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geezertect
Even the mob used to have a code of omerta. Don Corleone was kinda cool. These people are just sleazy and incredibly stupid. I mean, somebody paid $6.5 million!
Mar 15, 19 6:11 pm ·
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x-jla
Who’s that dumb to think they can run a scam with a bunch of yuppies and not get a rat in the bunch...
The guy that blew the whistle, Morrie Tobin, was being indited for stock fraud. He was attempting to lessen his sentence by revealing the unrelated scam that he was using to buy his daughter's way into Yale. The little twit Morrie was also a Yale graduate.
"We're poor little lambs who have lost our way Baa, baa, baa We're little black sheep who have gone astray Baa, baa, baa"
My parents loved me so much that instead of bribing* people to get me into an overpriced, elite school, they helped me understand that if you’re a good enough student, the universities will bribe you with scholarships to attend their schools.
*Unless you consider bribery paying taxes, a portion of which goes toward funding public education at the school I attended ... in which case nevermind.
Mar 16, 19 11:13 am ·
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Archinect
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Operation Varsity Blues - cheating your (kids') way into elite schools
I wonder if any architecture school students are beneficiaries of this massive cheating scandal?
The fact that people pretended to need disability accommodation so they could then cheat their SAT scores upwards fills me with rage. I, and so many other parents, have worked hard to get accommodations for our kids who actually need them, and rich people just buy their way into accessibility.
I don't know what to do with how much anger I have about people cheating, just consistently looking for ways to benefits themselves while screwing over others. This scandal, the ARE cheaters, the fucking president's businesses....I'm feeling like there's no bottom.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12...
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/0...
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12...
I'd typically just say that the real world (ie. working world) will knock them on their gold-plated asses... but we all know most of these wankers will never actually work a real day. So, that just adds fuel to this multi-verse dumpster fire (patent pending).
But realistically speaking, what's the % of cheating wankers vs non-cheating wankers? (Not to be taken out of context, everyone can be a wanker). And more importantly, is this really a big problem? Plenty of people will weasel into or out of everything given the opportunity.
As for your prez's business, you're on your own with that one.
Not surprised this has been going on. Surprised they actually got caught tho.
I don’t see a reason to believe there aren’t people in architecture programs that have done this. Having been on both sides (teaching/student) several people have made me raise questions
Not sure if you were around or remember, but we've had one active member who ranted on that he'd spent 10s of thousands of his parents' money on image consultants in order to get preferential treatment for studio placement. He was a blast but burned-out gloriously. So it happens even after the first bribe is paid apparently.
Casually browsing at the time. If I’m not mistaken we went to the same school (GSD), I cant remember.
Ding ding ding, that was the conclusion at the time. I believe the name was Kozumel, or something along those lines.
Although slightly different, there are foreign student's at my own arch school that their countries are paying for them to be there. Its completely out of the arch school hands and goes to the actual university. They know too because they cannot fail. They don't have to do much work nor show up for class.
I paid my way into a top school and cheated to graduate. After graduation, I was easily hired at starchitect firms through the school's alumni network.
Don't be upset, it's just how it works.
It seems to cause a lot of problems for you though, in terms of self-esteem and competence. Your post history here is full of laments on how you don't feel smart enough to do your job, and how you're too slow and not good at what you're doing, etc. You're living plagued by self-doubt and struggle to function in your career, because of how you got there. That's just how that works.
In the news about this latest SAT cheating scandal, it's been reported that some of the parents paid for their kids to have their test answers changed after the kids took the test, and did not want their kids to ever find out that they didn't really earn the high SAT scores on their own. Those parents wanted the kids to remain blissfully deluded, so they wouldn't face the problems you're having.
So Alina you don't care whether we live in a functioning society based on shared ethics? You're a Libertarian, too?
^ great one FormelyU. AlinaF, the only one upset here is you. We know you cheated but we don't give a fuck. You're living through those consequences now in the real world because you didn't put in the time and effort to build up useful skills that carry-over into the workplace.
Trying to determine if this is dripping with sarcasm, or serious. ..
^molten, mostly serious given AlinaF's comment history.
well i worked my way into a top school and a starchitecture office, and thats also "just how it works". the pay to play kids are all hat, no cattle, and they last an appropriately (brief) period of time, before (apparently) living lives wracked with self loathing and doubt. karma, i guess.
Don’t drag libertarians into this Donna. I for one am for a meritocracy. Having grown up working class and poor...working through college...getting a 4.0gpa...getting into arch school...etc I also would feel cheated by people paying their way like this.
The idea that libertarianism would condone such obvious corruption is patently un true. No one should have any non-merit based advantage in college. My silence today was due to me staying home to take care of 2 sick toddlers.
Libertarian: I don’t think the govt should make a law banning people from calling their grandparents cunts. Leftist: libertarians think it’s ok to call your grandma a cunt.
I can't fathom a mindset that thinks it's OK to stomp on everyone else as long as you (Alina) get what you want. In fact it's not even just ok, it's "what successful people do". It's SOP.
I can't understand it.
How can you live with yourself knowing that you've achieved things through dishonest means? Like Formerlyunknown says, how do you consider yourself to *be* smart or talented when you didn't actually *do* anything that smart, talented people can do?
Jesus Christ. I mean, I haven't accomplished much but I am totally clear-minded about what I HAVE accomplished. And I know that people in my community think well of me *because* of what I've accomplished, not because they believe a pack of lies that could crumble down at any moment.
I would assume it's based upon a life of entitlement. The satisfaction of a job well done or working hard to achieve goals is a feeling replaced by vanity, greed, and one-upmanship. If you're born into privilege, you'd have to hope the greatest thing to happen to you is getting kicked down in the dirt. Without that, the world is your oyster, and cheating on some entrance exams is hardly going to bother you--especially if you've been told all your life that you 'deserve this.'
This has been going on for years. It took other less blatant forms. Like Charles Kushner donating $2.5M to Harvard in the 90's. And his son Jared being admitted a couple years later. I have to assume that the children that benefit--at some point in their life--wonder if they could've made it on their own. What an empty existence that has to be.
I mean, I thought that was more blatant quid pro quo. It is just that those people didn't cheat on their taxes, or try to get the kids into the school without the Admin getting a piece. But when you try to skirt the IRS and the Admin, then you get caught. I've never been a teacher or coach, but I think it would seem they didn't break any laws, just ethical codes of conduct and duty of care.
It isn't just the rich people who are corrupt here. Coaches, Athletic Directors and others who are charged with upholding standards are the ones taking those rich fucker's kickbacks and bribes. And at the implicated universities the bribed are surely making fine salaries to begin with. Just a bunch of sleazy greedy fucks gaming an already fucked up situation.
Exactly. But in the meantime, I feel guilty if I toss an aluminum can into the trash instead of the recycle bin because I worry that my personal laziness will impact the entirety of society. Godammit.
There are people who recycle?
AlinaF, your trolling is becoming obvious.
http://mcmansionhell.com/post/...
In spirit of Donna's post and current bribing scandal.
LOL Non Seq I'm SO glad Kate is doing this!
I don't understand how people can live with themselves knowing they faked and cheated their way there, and held back others by doing so.
But... and I feel a little guilty admitting this... these kinds of stories make me feel a little better about myself. I mean, finding out that there are more and more cheaters all the time - it seems that those of use who got there while following the rules are an ever-shrinking group - an endangered species of the actually-qualified. It wouldn't have occurred to me to pay someone to take a test for me - because I think I'm smart enough that I wouldn't have trusted anyone to get a better score than I could get on my own. It wouldn't have occurred to me to pay someone to admit me to an elite school - I was qualified (and arrogant) enough to risk just... applying! There wasn't a reason to cheat when I got there because: it wasn't all that impossible to just do the work and pass the tests - and plus I wanted to learn stuff.
I feel genuinely sad for all the people who have no confidence in themselves or their kids to do things the right way, and I appreciate more that I'm lucky that I had to fend for myself. Being able to accomplish things on my own is a luxury that some parents don't give their kids.
Do you recycle?
Being able to accomplish things on my own is a luxury that some parents don't give their kids
Giving your kids the opportunity to fail--in a safe place, while they are young--is invaluable. Perhaps one of the most important things parents can do. Fighting the inclination to always protect your children is not easy--but you can sleep well at night knowing you've given them the tools to navigate the world.
One of my peers in grad school told me that I should go into doing architectural grad school applications for wealthy foreign students and said that they knew of people (them incl.) that had done that. I had accidentally given someone my paper for a theory class and found it had quickly been disseminated throughout the network and basically transcribed x10. I forget how much that they said that I could make but it was a lot. After that, I wondered how many students at my top grad school had paid for application material - there were a plethora of awkwardly unskilled people (I am no Zaha reincarnation myself) that had on point portfolios published to Issuu but in group work would have plans that must have been drawn in illustrator/didn't know Rhino/Sketchup/Revit.
And the ACT test administrators were in on it as well. What a hoot.
This scandal strikes me as a much better coordinated, cross-sectored, far-reaching racket (literally) of corrupt activities that go on all the time in smaller ways. It's like what Starbucks is to people drinking coffee.
It sounds like most students were fraudulently characterized as accomplished and recruited athletes, so the chances they were finagling to get into architecture programs is probably nil.
Yeah... they're probably not directly stealing architecture school spots.... but it's still distressing that they're taking spots away from deserving kids who might potentially actually want to go to class and get a college education. Hearing about the actress who paid half a million to get her kid into USC (which has not all THAT slim an acceptance rate in the first place - it's not Juilliard!) and meanwhile her kid's been on YouTube saying she doesn't think she'll actually attend classes very much since she doesn't care about college anyway except for the parties and game days...
It's sad that she's taking up a spot, and sad that so much money is going into someone's pocket for such a frivolous purpose when it could be used for better causes. The kid doesn't care about college, so all this is about is the parent's ego trip in getting her kid in by whatever means possible.
I remember catching a student cheating in my arch design studio class. A student submitted the same exact project as another student did the year before, all the drawings were exactly the same, same photos of models everything. I informed the administration at the school and never saw or heard from either student again.
Another time a student of mine received a rough review from one of the guest crits in my studio and then her father who is a known consultant in the city looked up my profile on linkedin and complained to my previous colleagues I used to work with in an architecture practice and even threatened them that he will go to the dean and reverse his donation to the school. He wanted to make sure I would find out from them.
Make no mistake- this shit happens in arch school also- albeit in different forms.
That father sounds like a real ass.
"...even threatened them that he will go to the dean and reverse his donation to the school."
This is the specter that so often haunts design programs. Faculty don't dare give accurate evaluations (read steep grade inflation) for fear of upsetting a parent that the administration (dept./college/institution) sees as a potential donor.
"the land of the rich and home of the cheaters"
I hope a "shitty list" is in the making to out all these cheaters.
The only shocking part is how elaborate this network was. Sure, for laundering and extortion operations, you need a large support crew, but whenever I am bribing, or taking bribes, I prefer not many witnesses.
Making it an extensive bribe club social makes these people not seem very smart. Perhaps same reason their offspring couldn't get into good schools.
Born in 1945, Francois de Menil is an Award winning Architect, who has led a small design studio for 22 years.He has provided architectural and interior design services for a variety of institutional, residential, retail and corporate office projects. Mr. de Menil founded his architecture firm in 1991 after receiving his Bachelor of Architecture degree from the Irwin S. Chanin School of Architecture at the Cooper Union in 1987. Prior to founding his own firm, de Menil worked in the offices of Richard Meier & Partners and Kohn Pedersen Fox.
I've never liked him, specifically because of the "rumor" that he paid substantial sums to get into Cooper.
Mother was a Schlumberger, from the world's largest oil field services company.
Bachelors to ownership in four years with stints in Meier and KPF? I'm sure the early work was spectacular.
If I'm 40 and loaded I'd buy my way into Cooper, GSD, et al. too. Worked for Philip Johnson.
The ringleader says he assisted 750 families, but the only two I've heard of so far are these two movie stars. Does anyone know if others have yet been identified by name?
One more needle getting dangerously close to the bubble that "higher" education has become. This is going to be delicious!
Full list: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/0...
Thanks. This sounds like just the beginning. The lawyer could be disbarred and the two actresses have destroyed their careers (one would assume). The stupidity is breathtaking.
High number of real estate developers on that list. Not surprising.
archinect showcased a couple people I know for a fact got a huge leg up from their parents and parents’ connections. I went to school with people who obviously came from money and somehow got a job at a big name firm in spite of being pretty mediocre students.
I also have seen it a few different offices - people who are only there because they know someone.
I came from a pretty low-income community and went to an elite school. Not many people from my HS went on to college. My ideas of college being a meritocracy were destroyed that first month. These kids weren’t any smarter than my friends back home. They just happened to be born into better circumstances.
Dude, when I first started college I remember feeling so out of place. The kids all spoke with a fake ness...like they were trying to sound smart. There was this passive aggressive way of being that was very foreign to me. It was for sure a culture shock. Most of my peers from my neighborhood were far more clever and had more life experience...they seemed older by a decade, even though they were the same age as the people I was in school with. It was a good school, but no Ivy League...I can’t even imagine something like Yale.
Ding ding, a sobering experience for sure. Meritocracies don't last long.
What ruined it for me was realizing how much more rigorous the courses were at the humble state school I went to versus the elite private school across town that some of my friends attended.
Very true! Actually the hardest classes by far
were ones I took at a community college...
note that this cheating seems to have been done by parents apparently without the knowledge or consent of the children. many seem to have gone to some efforts to hide the fraud from their children, reasonably recognizing that the sense of being a fraud would otherwise poison their development.
see this article for some good quotes from the accused https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/03/college-admissions-scandal-9-revealing-moments/584803/
i think all parents feel an strong instinct to privilege their own children- most of us are decent people though who suppress the urge to tell our children's teachers why X should be allowed to skip nap time and we know not scream in rage at the toddler who 'fights' with our child at the playground even though we want to.
what's appalling is that these people are all already rich. what marginal difference is it going to make to your child to enroll at a university with a famous name, when those parents already can offer all the money and connections any child would need to get ahead at life? isn't being born rich and well connected good enough anymore?
i think this is a symptom of the disease of parents viewing their children as their own creations, a validation of the parents 'goodness' and skill at nurturing talent. when you and your peers can buy whatever you want, the only way to get one up on everyone is to show off your superiority as a parent. a daughter at yale is like the pritzker prize of parenting.
this is really an absurd and disappointing outcome of social competitiveness and showing off.
I totally feel you on the "already rich" comments. For the money these people were throwing away, they should just have trusts and invest for their kids... I mean I'm sure they have money for that too, but why pay for a piece of paper you already know isn't worth anything if the kids aren't going to apply themselves anyway and they already have all the wealth and connections needed. Of course I don't know the rules of the rich, maybe it's a requirement to have graduated from an Ivy to continue getting those connections.
Also David Mamet can go fuck himself with this. I'm so ready for Boomers to shut the hell up.
Why are you on his case? Sounds like he doesn't approve of this practice either.
Because he's saying "Crime is bad, of course, but my rich white friends shouldn't be punished when *they* do it."
Seriously, what is that? "I'm friends with this felon, but they didn't mean to get caught so we should probably just ignore it."
Obviously he’s going to defend his friends. Plenty of poor people do the same when a friend is arrested. Sometimes for really heinous crimes. This is not shocking.
Donna, you're right. I read it too quickly. He seems to be saying that it's a slimy process, but they are lovely people who had a momentary lapse of judgement. Sorry, David, deciding to bribe your kid's way into school isn't a "momentary" lapse. It takes a fair amount of planning with plenty of opportunities to come to your senses.
jla-x: Poor people bribe their friends' way out of jail? How do they do that? They don't have any money, by definition. If you mean jumping bail, they haven't been acquitted or released from prosecution. An arrest warrant is still issued.
Comments were about coming to defense of friends despite allegations, not bribing way out of jail.
Donna asserted that rich white people feel other rich white people are exempt from jail based on a friend defending their friend. That’s an assumption to fit a narrative. The reality is that friends often defend friends. It’s silly to make that leap of confirmation bias.
*rich white friends....why not just say friends....why bring in race. It’s annoying
Mamet, is a cunt.
“That a parent’s zeal for her children’s future may have overcome her better judgment for a moment is not only unfortunate, it is, I know we parents would agree, a universal phenomenon.” Sounds like a reasonable assessment. Everyone would rig things in favor of their offspring. Kinda the reason evolution works. This isn’t unique to the rich either. People use connections to benefit their kids. You know how many friends I had with an uncle in the union that was given an impossible to get job sweeping sidewalks for 100k a year or something ridiculous
They obviously did something wrong and illegal...but this isn’t the crime of the century like people are saying. The fact that celebrities were involved seems to be why the media is making it so big. Which ironically is part of the problem.
I'm not stunned by either
Mamets idiocy or that you'd be defending it.
I’m not defending it you moron. Read better.
You either have a low iq, or intentionally fail to see the nuance in things.
Framing the issue as rich vs poor, white vs other, etc is reducing it to politics as usual. It’s about a scam perpetrated by rich people. Scams by poor people happen all the time. I’m actually a victim of one that happened last week with some toothless meth heads and my insurance...
Everyone is cheating the system. That statement Doesn’t defend the cheaters, just expands the demographics to a more reality based view vs a ideological one like you seem to have.
I enjoy how you usually end up proving my point while strenuously trying to prove it isn't true. Saves me so much time and typing.
I less enjoy how you constantly set up a false narrative based on assumptions about my beliefs.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/us/tm-landry-college-prep-black-students.amp.html
Also unsurprised that you'd use something as misleading as "iq" to try and attack me. You do realize that iq is pretty much bullshit, right?
Didn’t get as much attention...but like I said, everyone is gaming the system
Everyone seems to get more “outraged” when rich people do stuff. Seems like part of the is motivated by jealousy and a desire to see the successful fail. Part is also leftist confirmation bias.
Everyone seems to use terms like “everyone” when demonizing people who don't agree with them. Seems like part of this is motivated by ignorance and a desire to be the lone voice of reason. Part is also libertarian delusional bullshit.
Right wing confirmation bias surrounding the Jussie Smollett hoax was similar in that a singular case was expanded to cast suspicion on an entire class of people- hate crime victims. This is the medias game. Political
narratives. Just saying...treat the case as a case, not a symptom of an entire class of people.
Rich people, as a "class" of people, are first, not a protected class, and b, are fucking future embers of history. come at me aynn.
"Everyone seems to get more “outraged” when rich people do stuff. Seems like part of the (SIC) is motivated by jealousy and a desire to see the successful fail. Part is also leftist confirmation bias."
"...treat the case as a case, not a symptom of an entire class of people."
The reaction to the case IS politically motivated though. You can have an isolated incident, followed a reaction that is framed to fit a certain narrative. Look pretty much every news story.
“Future embers of history”? Nuff said. If that’s true we are all future embers of history.
A little off topic but I once had a Spanish friend who told me in Spain if one studied architecture at a "private" university they looked stupid bc they had to pay to study whereas you can go to places like Superior Technical School of Architecture of Madrid or ETSM for free. Thus having a private name for an institution on your degree is looked down upon. By being a free or almost free uni, somewhat bypasses this country club type of education where inevitably bribing or "donating" to the institutions helps students get in.
Another problem with this American country club style education is that by letting ppl get in bc of legacy or there parents donate to the school effectively waters down the quality of students in the place, and kind drags down the schools reputation.
I've had a similar conversation with arch students in Lisbon.
It's totally on topic and very true, gotta love socialism!
In this country, an Ivy League education has traditionally been a social standing credential more than a marker of intelligence. Prior to the GI bill, it was really just a finishing school for the eastern elite. Being private and expensive kept out the riff raff. It's a little more meritocratic now, although this scandal may reveal just how rigged it still is.
Riff-raff both outside and inside those hallowed halls.
I should have put riff-raff in quotes. The Ivy League types 100 years ago regarded anybody without old money and an ancestor on the Mayflower as riff raff.
I have a dime from the 1950's and am descended from a 15th century Swiss Baron! Riff raff and a half maybe...
My parents used Mayflower Van Lines when they moved. I wonder if that counts.
This scandal involves state schools.
yes it does but the issue is more exasperated at private institutions
Parent's should have just donated to the University like everybody else to assure their kids get in!!! I know people personally where their donations to the University come a long way making things happen. Sad but true!
Indeed. Using the donation route, no laws would have been broken.
Since the kids who got in are apparently doing ok in their studies you could make a case for doing away with Admissions altogether and having a lottery for everyone who wants in. Of course in that case the colleges couldn't play social justice warrior and make the selections that way either.
Where is your source for the kids are doing ok in their studies? AFAIK almost one of the kids' names have been released.
Yeah, I was curious as to why those on here longing for a meritocracy weren’t outraged on the Asian quotas at Harvard?
I shouldn’t assume your weren’t...were you all outraged about that as I was?
Isn’t it too early in the year for crickets?
I'm outraged. There is a lawsuit pending against one of the big snot schools by Asian plaintiffs alleging discrimination. I hope they prevail.
Me too.
The Asian lawsuit is a fucking canard, Trojan Horse, all in the service of wypipo. Stop playing yourselves.
Right...because Asians do well mostly because of a strong family structure, emphasis on education, and culture of “tightening their bootstraps”. You know Trojan horse tactics by whites to make America look possible if you work hard and study more than grieves
*grieve
Plaaaaaaayin' yo-self...
https://www.aclu.org/blog/raci...
https://www.theguardian.com/ed...
"Its opponents charge that the case is not even about Asian Americans at Harvard; rather, they say it is an issue that has been co-opted by conservative activists whose real goal is ending race-conscious admissions policies that give minority students a better shot at attending universities like Harvard. Supporters on both sides charge the other with racism."
The lefts racism shows with this case. They don’t want minorities to succeed. They want a cause to structure their white hero narrative around.
There is a difference between weighing hardships based on race/economics vs creating a negative racial quota. One Creates an advantage the other a disadvantage.
You're further proof that libertarianism is just shitbag conservatism with an even greater superiority complex.
Because I am libertarianism? That doesn’t make any sense.
You arreeee doomb. Systemic racism is a white peeple problem. Not a lefts racism, whatevs da fucks that means.
Racism shows itself on the right and left differently. That’s what it means.
Racism shows itself pretty normally around these parts, I'd say. Nothing special at this forum.
Donna, There have been several stories about the classmates of many of these students being upset with them for receiving help. Other stories were about the colleges deciding whether to expel the students or not. Haven't heard about any students cratering grade-wise. Heavens knows there are enough puff majors to enable almost anyone to graduate once they get in.
True. There seems to be a huge contradiction in those screaming for income equality and also for meritocracy. You CANT have both. If school was actually designed so that only a really smart and studious minority got through the degree would be worth something and there would be even greater income inequality. Alternatively you can make college for everyone, devalue it, and create a slew of equally unemployable people. This fiasco seems to rely on the latter otherwise admission would mean nothing as these kids would fail out any way
Volunteer I haven't heard stories of the kids' cratering grade-wise at the schools either but honestly I've hardly heard *any* stories about the kids at all. I feel like there's been an effort in the media - especially since some of these students didn't even KNOW that their parents were cheating for them! - to not name the names of the kids who benefited, so I have no idea from any news source how well or poorly any of them are doing. I honestly feel sadness for any kids who thought they scored high on the SAT and just 48 hours ago learned through the news that their parents' don't have faith in their intelligence. Jesus.
In past admissions scandals in the Ivies it's also been the case that the students haven't been terrible students with dismal grades. There was the guy who got into Yale in the 90s with doctored community college transcripts (stamped with the bottom of a beer bottle) and fabricated references from non-existent faculty. And the guy who scammed Princeton TWICE with two different fake personas (and got through at least a whole semester on campus the 2nd time before anyone recognized him from the first scam). And the woman who went to Columbia and Cal State Fullerton using the stolen identity of a missing person. And several others.
NONE of these people were caught or suspected because of poor academic performance. They weren't all stellar students, but they weren't flunking out either. One was caught because he confessed to a roommate, one was recognized by a former classmate, one drew scrutiny of fellow frat members because he had made them angry by flaunting rules, one was caught by inconsistent paperwork for athletic eligibility... One wonders how many more scammers there are, current and former, who just weren't ever caught, and did just fine blending in as at least mediocre students if not better. There's really no reason to think that most of these scammer-parents' kids wouldn't do just fine - especially if they didn't know what their parents did - then they wouldn't even be carrying around the self-doubt of knowing they got in fraudulently.
here's one, who was already instagram famous if that counts
https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/3/14/18266117/olivia-jade-giannulli-lori-loughlin-daughter-usc-college-scandal she has some good quotes about going to school because her parents insisted that are ironic now. actually if people are willing to pay 500k+ to ensure their child who has no intent to attend class or try at all will still get in, maybe schools should just sell sponsorship. as in, sponsor 5 poor students to attend, get a free spot for your child. it's seems grossly unfair but it also gives a wide range of people what they want in an open and transparent way.
I think that a big part of the problem is the inflated importance we place on university degrees in particular, and graduation from "elite" universities in particular.
In the case of architecture, I see university as a place where you go to spend a few years thinking about architecture, before you start your real education, which is spending several years under the mentorship of a good architect.
I think the profession should reinstate a path for licensure which bypasses university altogether, replacing it with an apprenticeship.
As far as "elite" schools, we've had staff who graduated from second and third tier state colleges who were light-years ahead of staff who went to Harvard GSD. And a lot less attitude.
That leads to a different form of elitism where the well connected have a leg up
How so?
Those with family connects get the apprenticeships. In this profession it’s very clear that connections are way more beneficial than wealth. I do support that pathway, but I don’t think it will lead to anything closer to meritocracy. The only way to get closer to that is to eliminate education and apprenticeship...make a harder test...possibly a probation period where you can do certain types of work (which is already allowed anyway).
@Erik, in my experience, about 50% of Ivy grads are top notch in the workplace and the other 50% have attitudes and are pretty useless in an office setting.
Sounds like about what you'd expect from the general population, then.
The useless subset of ivy kids have an arrogance that I have never encountered in the general population.
How else are the rich going to advance? Certainly not on merit ...
if there is one group that really needs a leg up, it's the rich. i really feel bad for how victimized they are. to paraphrase the president, it's a very scary time for rich people in america.
I think it is a delicious hoot. it is like the Animal House movie but with parents, coaches, and college officials each playing the John Belushi role.
This is similar to Hillary Clinton, Yale Law School grad, being given, and accepting, the presidential debate questions beforehand, no?
no.
It's not similar at all, but your gut instinct to drag Hillary Clinton into the conversation speak s volumes about your point of view.
makes you wonder if any archinectors got their education and license through similar corrupt avenues
Not the same. But both are examples of corruption.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/clinton-received-debate-questions-week-before-debate/
Curt, it doesn't make me wonder at all.
Hey, Snopes is cool! https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donna-brazile-leaves-cnn/
How about Elizabeth Warren claiming to be native American in order to piggy back into a cushy Harvard faculty gig? Ya think Harvard probably knew she wasn't really a Cherokee despite those high cheek bones?
I thought people can identify as anything now? I was bout to identify as a 5yo and wreck some toddlers in soccer.
durrrhurrrrr making light of identity is fun durrrhurrrrrrr
Finding those points where flawed liberal logic breaks down is fun...why can’t she identify as a Native American?
So out of Elizabeth Warren, Shaun King, and Rachel Dolezal who is telling the truth? I want to identify myself as a unicorn.
So out if billions of people you have three examples you are using to justify genuine cruelty and callousness. Good job, I guess?
I want everyone to be happy. Identify as you please. I truly believe in individuality, so live as you want. Just don’t try to use your identity to scam the system like Warren...
If Rachel Dolezal said, “hey I’m genetically white, but feel most comfortable like this...” no one would care. If a trans person said “hey, I’m a biological male, but identify as a female” more power to ya. When society says “that trans person IS an actual female and if you don’t believe so you are a terrible person...” then there is a problem of overreach. That’s when trans mma fighters pummel biological women, or dominate in power lifting...true story. When you ask society to accept your reality as the reality, vs society accepting your reality as your reality. A Society that respects individuality must accept your reality and provide equal rights always so that you can live your best life.
warren believed she had native american ancestry because that's what her family told her.
Many more Pete... these are just notable individuals that changed their indentity and cheated the system. They are not the only ones. Listen... I have no problem with whatever people want to indetify with.... but it’s when people do so and take advantage from those that are for actually African American and or Native Indian. That’s when I have a problem with it.
I was reading a bit more about this and, surprise, this all came to light because one of the bribing parents was under indictment for securities fraud and was looking for a way to lighten his sentence. And so, like a good American, he blew his whistle on the person he was bribing. It all unraveled from there. If you aren't cheating. You aren't trying.
Every man for himself ... until he gets caught. LOL
Even the mob used to have a code of omerta. Don Corleone was kinda cool. These people are just sleazy and incredibly stupid. I mean, somebody paid $6.5 million!
Who’s that dumb to think they can run a scam with a bunch of yuppies and not get a rat in the bunch...
Spring is coming in.
It’s is. I’m only wearing one jacket today.
I see buttercups and crocus.
Spring is coming and the smell of scandal is in the air. What a wonderful time to be alive!
Allergies and scandals.
The guy that blew the whistle, Morrie Tobin, was being indited for stock fraud. He was attempting to lessen his sentence by revealing the unrelated scam that he was using to buy his daughter's way into Yale. The little twit Morrie was also a Yale graduate.
"We're poor little lambs who have lost our way
Baa, baa, baa
We're little black sheep who have gone astray
Baa, baa, baa"
My parents loved me so much that instead of bribing* people to get me into an overpriced, elite school, they helped me understand that if you’re a good enough student, the universities will bribe you with scholarships to attend their schools.
*Unless you consider bribery paying taxes, a portion of which goes toward funding public education at the school I attended ... in which case nevermind.
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