I wanted to start this topic and see what everyone's thought about it is and how we can start a discussion about the future of architects and the industry. From what I'm seeing, while the requirement to be a licensed architect in US is extremely difficult, 5 years school, 7 exams, 3 years experience (Average 12.5 to 15 years, base on NCARB survey, https://www.ncarb.org/press/20...). I have't seen architects in general being successful in society. Architects are not educated in real estate investments so we can't get funding for our own projects and I haven't seen any young architect coming out of school that actually knows how to build... this is very concerning to me. It seems that in today's age, the true architect is the Developers, the GC, and the Engineers...where does that leave us?
Where does it leave us? Who cares where the special millennial snowflakes fall, more work for me and all the others that valued construction and design equally during school and therefore know how to put together a building.
What is your background, are you an architect?
Jul 20, 18 1:23 pm ·
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OneLostArchitect
I can’t stand these snowflakes myself. I have a guy at my office you comes crying to me everyday that the boss yelled at him! Suck it up!!!! Fuck!!!!!
Jul 20, 18 11:20 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
How did you value construction during school? This would get you a lot of negative attention in my school. School is very much about architecture and if you showed signs of interest in buildings, there was a social cost to it. Grades would suffer if you showed that you were interested in building instead of mind-blowing masterpieces of space and form. And in the long run,
maybe that was ok. It's all a game.
Jul 21, 18 6:53 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
Shouldn't try to type on my phone, sorry.
Jul 21, 18 7:00 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
Heavy abstraction got A's. You didn't do buildings, you did spaces. Anything resembling real life got you C's and D's. I think that was the height of that era though, hopefully an anomaly. I have been to other school studios where kids were trying to make ramps ADA accessible which was celebrated there but was not something you would get positive attention for where I was. Our 2-3 practicing professors were shunned by all the others for producing actual buildings with all their silly limitations. The non-practicing professors preached about paradigm shift.
Jul 21, 18 7:15 am ·
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OneLostArchitect
That was my university as well. It was sad. My degree is worth less than a piece of toilet paper in my opinion. What I learned in the profession is ten fold more than I ever learned in the studio. Half the kids at my school couldn’t draw a flashing detail if their life depended on it.
Jul 21, 18 12:07 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Tint, heavy abstraction was the game winner strategy in my undergrad too. I went as far as using acrylics and pallet knives to "draft" my elevations and floor plans in one studio. (got an A too). My point was that one needs to take the other business, prof prac, specifications, technical, etc courses with the same level of effort... My colleagues from the same school who did not place equal care are the same wankers still today complaining that exams are too difficult, low wages, no management roles,etc etc etc... my 2 cents worth
Jul 22, 18 6:21 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I think you are right.
Jul 23, 18 10:34 am ·
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tduds
That sort of self-serving, theory-for-theory's-sake envelope pushing is what drove me away from the Ivory Towers and into a state school for my MArch. Less debt too!
Jul 23, 18 7:11 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
Among 'my A' projects: one drafted with make-up... eye shadow, lipstick, etc. One about a wormhole and some deep stuff about light and dark. One was a performance piece with surreal poetry. One was a presentation with no words, only music. One that ended up being about 40 feet by 20 feet of drawings on the floor, like one of those maps you can stand on. Another that was a building that was a partially submerged 'capsule'. <-- free ideas!
Jul 24, 18 2:54 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
One about sex (topic chosen by professor). Another was a dome built up with jenga-like structure where the gaps were stuffed with glass orbs (like marbles) to catch n throw the light. My classmates all hated that one, professor loved it. Another was a kinetic machine/sculpture that you could wind up. It had blades to cut you if you stood too close.
Jul 24, 18 3:04 pm ·
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tduds
Three out of my four non-thesis graduate studios dealt with sites and programs that were later developed in ways nearly identical to my designs. ...
State school y'all!
Jul 25, 18 5:46 pm ·
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tduds
Then my thesis re-imagined neighborhood housing as an evolving virus and the for / against reactions aligned precisely with "Who is younger than 60?" Too wild for state school, that one.
"Architects are not educated in real estate investments so we can't get funding for our own projects and I haven't seen any young architect coming out of school that actually knows how to build... this is very concerning to me. It seems that in today's age, the true architect is the Developers, the GC, and the Engineers...where does that leave us?"
I'd say then you do not know what architects do, the value they provide, or how to sell it. I'm guessing you aren't an architect based on the idea you seem to think we're easily replaced by those other trades.
You can say all those same things about a Developer, the GC, and the Engineers; they are also clueless about how stuff works coming out of school. Do you honestly think someone with a degree in Real Estate knows about entitlements, funding, etc.? Do you think a construction management degree means they know how to put together a building? Basically, I don't care what degree you get, you aren't ever going to know the business with just a few years of classroom lectures and homework. That comes over time.
Furthermore, I seriously doubt any of them could design something where people want to be from scratch; Every single one of them REVIEWS the conceptual design and adds their own unique little world of expertise based on their own perspectives. But none of them CREATE and none of them can take a generic verbal client program and develop that into a fully functional building. They simply aren't trained to deal with filling in the blanks.
"They simply aren't trained to deal with filling in the blanks."
This comment made me recall an old science teacher in high school who used to say that answers are easy ... coming up with questions is the hard part. He would then elaborate that answering something like a math problem is easy, coming up with the concept of numbers and mathematics in order to ask the question in the first place was the hard part.
Perhaps they could fill in the blanks if the blanks are presented to them ... but figuring out where the blanks are in order to ask how they need to be filled is the hard part.
@Non Sequitur I think looking at the bigger picture will help you individually dramatically. For example, for society to understand the value of an architect will help you have a larger leverage to charge a higher fee. We all know what a doctor or a lawyer does. But for architects to need to explain what our value is devalues us and we lose time and money explaining.
In addition, base on some of the responses and what an architect's role is suppose to be, it seems to me that we don't need a license that takes 12+ years to get? And if not, what's the value of the license, the license that you all paid thousands of dollars and years of abuse for? (I think this is how society and the industry sees us... what's the point?)
In regards to schooling, I think at least the real estate graduates have a better foundation for what they do for less schooling time and cost. It's disheartening to work with graduates who doesn't even know the standard water to cement ratio or the proper grout type for standard masonry work.
The corruption and lies in our industry is unbelievable.
We all suffer from it but we blame each other for being soft. Why do we do this to each other?
We all know architecture education and NCARB/NAAB is fraud and exploits young architects with passion for money but we accept it.
It's just weird for people who loves architecture so much to hate so much on other people who has the same love for architecture.
I have half a $billion (that's with a B) in built projects over the last 9 years.
Jul 20, 18 4:27 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
"In addition, base on some of the responses and what an architect's role is suppose to be, it seems to me that we don't need a license that takes 12+ years to get?"
Incorrect, the license takes roughly 3 to 5years of real world experience. School counts for little.
Jul 20, 18 4:32 pm ·
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curtkram
corruption and lies in our industry? could you elaborate?
Jul 20, 18 5:08 pm ·
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heeroyui
1. So out of the half a billion $ how much did you pay your architect?
Jul 20, 18 5:24 pm ·
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curtkram
he is the architect
Jul 20, 18 5:29 pm ·
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heeroyui
Trust me, I'm sure he didn't architect his own project.
Let's see. New member since ... today, total of 5 posts, and knows more than everyone here on the forum.
Sounds about right.
Jul 20, 18 6:19 pm ·
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heeroyui
why are you even here if you don't support architects?
Jul 20, 18 6:49 pm ·
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curtkram
where else are we going to go to not support architects?
Jul 20, 18 7:04 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Yeah. Choosing the drink instead of replying to this wanker was a good choice.
Jul 20, 18 11:18 pm ·
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joseffischer
Well, using rule of thumb NCARB logic, Non has helped his firms bring him $30-50 mil in revenue (6-10% fees?). Using the low number, his firms have paid their employees (including non) 1/3 of that in salaries (so $10 mil on the low end) and considering teams/fees include engineering staff/consultants interns, PA, PM, etc... I'm guessing 20-30 employees are somehow involved in Non's projects, so Non's probably seen roughly $300-500,000 of that in salary over the years. Just my wild guess.
Jul 23, 18 9:28 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Good one Joe.... keep in mind that my numbers are in Canadian loonies so 400million USD on a good day. Fee % are typically 3 to 5% for commercial here and although I'm not sure on proffit margins (too many moving targets), I quickly calculated I've overseen the full completion of $475million (CAD) just looking at 4 projects and of those fees, I've seen well over $500k in salary during that time.
Jul 23, 18 10:25 am ·
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cipyboy
I miss reading stuff from that semi-troll guy that everyone loves to hate, but can't live without from Astoria Oregon, who's that again?lol
Oct 3, 18 4:01 pm ·
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Derek Askari duPont
architecture is meant to transcend the built environment
It seems that this OP is a new poster. We've had this discussion about licensure and shortcomings of education so many times. Does no one know how to use the search function?? I feel like this is another student post looking to get help on a homework assignment.
Jul 20, 18 5:00 pm ·
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heeroyui
Why don't you support young architects and the architecture field? And no, I'm not a student. This post is not about short comings. I've been through it. This post is about how to make the architecture industry better for architects...
Architects provide value the same way a modern artist provides value. You have to be trained in it to appreciate it. So unfortunately, outside of an architects perspective, the role of an architect is permits. What then makes a good architect is one who gets permits on the agreed schedule and then performs a supportive role in CA and VE vs. an adversarial one fighting to keep their gold plated prefab wall panels and ultra designed wall sconces that cost as much as a car.
So the question is, the real estate (includes construction, development, etc) industry have basically pushed architects out. These individuals have gotten into our associations and education system and devalued all future architect prospects.
As an architect, I'm concern about the future of the architecture profession but the response I get when trying to discuss this topic is... You're spoiled, suck it up. I know what I've gone through to get to where I am today so I don't feel the need to justify myself here.
And there's no doubt that I'm sure these individuals are apart of the corrupt associations that's trying to kill the architecture profession. A part of the associations that extort money from architects.
The problem is, there's too many nasty bitter and evil architects out there. I truly hope that young architects meets less of you all. We architects need to stick together & protect our profession.
Jul 21, 18 6:25 pm ·
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curtkram
i am currently working on a project where i sit in a conference room with the developer, the developer's finance guy that hustles banks and investors, the leasing agent that gets the tenants, and the contractor. they didn't cut us out. on the other hand, it isn't all about me and pleasing my oversized ego. i have a certain scope in the project, but there are a lot of other people with other scopes. for the project to be successful, those people need to be successful along with me.
Jul 21, 18 7:36 pm ·
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curtkram
if you don't understand what your job as an architect is, you're never going to get a seat at the table. granted i'm bitter and evil, but i don't think that's a prerequisite. i can assure you this has nothing to do with "corrupt associations." this is about you not understanding what value you provide to others.
Jul 21, 18 7:38 pm ·
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heeroyui
The problem is we know what we do but the public doesn't. Also, please explain to me what you think an architect does that other trades can't replicate or do?
Jul 22, 18 2:37 pm ·
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heeroyui
In addition, are you a partner or are they paying you just 15%? And how much work are you doing compared to them?
Jul 22, 18 2:44 pm ·
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curtkram
my job is ultimately to add value to my client's business model.
i am not a partner, i am a wage slave.
The problem is that many grads don’t really want to be architects...so they blame the profession for not meeting their expectations rather than create the path that they would rather travel.
Jul 21, 18 10:39 pm ·
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heeroyui
If they graduated out of a 5 year program and gained nothing out of it, I'm sure they have the dedication to be an architect. I always look at the NBA and wonder how a guy throwing a ball in a hoop can get millions and millions of dollars. I just think that their associations represented them well. Our associations are pretty crappy.
Jul 22, 18 2:42 pm ·
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x-jla
They bring out crowds and sell tickets and merchandise. Two different things.
Jul 22, 18 2:52 pm ·
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curtkram
people want to pay to be entertained. they don't like paying their architects.
Jul 22, 18 2:54 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
heeroyui, just because you got nothing out of your degree does not mean others did not as well... and that NBA comparison removes what little credibility you had left.
Jul 22, 18 6:17 pm ·
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heeroyui
Non, you never had any credibility. I really am not sure why you are so bitter... and naive to the truth. Why dont we make architecture entertaining or something that people actually like. Its call trying something new or being innovative. Your lack of imagination is disturbing...
Jul 23, 18 12:21 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Lack of imagination? Non credibility? All this from a weekend warrior realtor? Sure... my clients are happy with the many buildings I’ve already done. Don’t see why you’re so bitter. Perhaps it’s because you defaulted to an actual dying profession (realtor) instead of doing something challenging.
Jul 23, 18 6:21 am ·
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Steeplechase
I’m confused. How is the person who is enjoying their career and finding success in it the one who is bitter? What does that make those who don’t like it and try to find boogeymen?
Jul 23, 18 12:52 pm ·
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JLC-1
wonder how a guy throwing a ball in a hoop can get millions and millions of dollars
How many do you see throwing a ball for millions of dollars? it takes decades for a prof player to get to that level, since they're 2 yrs old - How many hours have you effectively invested in your pursue of success? whatever that is, is not instant; those billionerds in mountain view? it's a different wiring, can't fake it or work towards, just flashes of genius(?) that VCs have for blood sucking....
Nobody learns how to actually do anything in higher education, you learn once you hit the real world. It's a problem with the educational system, not just architecture. Or it's not a problem, and just a fact of life.
At least in the residential world where I have always worked, architects and designers have two roles: plan a construction project, and provide entertainment for the client.
You can add "creating art" and "making the world a better place" and whatever else you want, but at the heart of the matter are those two items.
To be productive with this conversation, I'm hearing in order for architects to be less bitter, just be happy with your job and don't worry about getting paid, our industry is never going to improve like others, everyone will always get paid more then you but you'll do all the work, suck it up, there's 1 architect who'll be successful while everyone fail.
Is there anything else I missed?
Jul 23, 18 3:10 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
"Is there anything else I missed?"
Yes there is something you missed: everything.
Jul 23, 18 4:15 pm ·
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Steeplechase
You haven’t stated what needs to be improved. Maybe you’re bitterness is a more personal problem?
Jul 23, 18 4:29 pm ·
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JLC-1
money, she/he wants more money, get paid like a stock broker at 26, without knowing shit.
Jul 23, 18 4:38 pm ·
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x-jla
Your general discontent means nothing without providing more info on what you want out of it all. If it’s more money, open a firm and make more money. If it’s more creativity and design, figure a way to do that and get paid. I’m not really sure who you think is responsible for your future and happiness. In case you don’t know, it’s you.
Jul 23, 18 4:39 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
he/she is nothing but a disgruntled realtor.
Jul 23, 18 4:59 pm ·
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mightyaa
No, money alone ain't it, nor is being really good at it, nor intellectually challenging, nor the quality of the projects, etc.. You really need to enjoy the work you do consistently. Find that, and you'll be happy. For me, that is rare; I've never regretted not going in when I ditch but often regret not just staying in bed when I'm at work. So I convince myself a large salary is 'worth' it.... and I'll do that tomorrow morning too, and the next, and the next..
Jul 23, 18 6:59 pm ·
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x-jla
But if the goal is to create art, which is a good goal, then create art. If it’s to make money, then make money. People are too caught up with “the profession” as if it’s some mandated rigid mold you have to fit. Design your own life. Following the “path to x” is a recipe for disaster. Make your own path. Best advice I ever got was “your most important design project is to design your life.”
For the next 60% of a project, I am an orchestra conductor.
For the last 30% of a project, I am an air traffic controller.
The best advice I ever got from a professor was: "You don't need to know all of this, you only need to know enough to know when your consultant / GC / client is lying to you." Most of my job is calling bullshit on bullshit and preventing crashes before they happen. Usually immediately before they happen.
After looking at this conversation, I can see why the profession is becoming a joke. This really is not about philosophy or bitterness. It's about reality. While I have passion for the profession and the art of building, if money is respect, we are on the bottom of it, that's a fact. Non, I am a realtor and an architect and a builder and a developer. I started my career as an architect and wondered how architects looked at themselves now and where they see themselves in the future. You've confirmed that the profession is going down the dumps. Developers will always treat you like the manure you are and the associations will always steal from you cause you all are ok with it. I'm asking to see if you lot wanted more from your profession and the associations that represents you and the answer is No, I like being stepped on.
Jul 24, 18 12:09 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Cool story, but your opinion does not reflect the experience you claim. I guess you're just damaged beyond repair as is evident from all the responses above. And no downwards spiral from my point of view for those who understand the profession.
Jul 24, 18 12:35 pm ·
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heeroyui
You just lost all of your credibility and respect of all architects...
Jul 24, 18 1:02 pm ·
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heeroyui
Architects are problem solvers. How can you provide any answers when you can't even identify the problem...Seriously, which corrupt association is paying you to make these ridiculous comments on Archinect?
Jul 24, 18 1:10 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Seriously? I expected better, even from a realtor.
Jul 24, 18 1:11 pm ·
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JLC-1
money is not respect; if it was, teachers would make the most and not cocaine crooks in wall street.
Jul 24, 18 3:44 pm ·
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heeroyui
It doesn't work that way. Respect doesn't mean money but in the construction industry, receiving money is respect. It means, you've done your job and well enough to get paid. The problem is there is a lot of scum who doesn't pay. Which means that they don't have enough respect for you as a human being to pay... Stay away from them and don't work with them.
Jul 24, 18 5:26 pm ·
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curtkram
no, receiving money in construction is 90% about leverage and very little to do with how good of a job you do. having said that, a tight set of drawings leaves less room for the contractor/subs to take advantage of change orders. of course the architect doesn't get paid more for avoiding change orders, so i suppose the reward for a job well done is just a little less annoying CA process.
I don’t think it’s that crazy to expect the professional organizations to back up better education geared for 21st century realities and also provide public awareness and better business practices awareness among members. Why are you bashing this guy so much?
Jul 24, 18 2:38 pm ·
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heeroyui
Thank you.
You give me hope...
Jul 24, 18 5:27 pm ·
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tduds
I could be off-base, but I have trouble subscribing to the idea that it's a zero-sum game, which is the mindset I got from the original post.
Beyond that, I just have little patience for someone who asks a question only to tell people that their answers to the question are wrong. I don't think I'm in a particularly unique station in my career, and most of the cynicism / fatalism about architecture put forth in this thread simply hasn't been my experience.
Maybe a little willingness to entertain alternative viewpoints would yield a little less hostility in response.
Jul 24, 18 5:33 pm ·
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heeroyui
I don't mind the hostility. I've been facing it all my career, it's what it's like to be an architect, overcoming hostility and pushing to learn more and getting better. I already know the hostile individuals mainly Non and Miles Jaffe are just BS-ers. I don't even know if they are even architects. I wish they would think about other architects more not just about themselves. I want the profession to improve. While I'm doing well now, I seem to be one of the few who remember how difficult it was coming out of school. No support, in massive school debts, many all nighters, weekend construction work. 3am ARE study sessions, free pro bono work for IDP. I look back at it and I wonder what if I had more support. What if school taught more about construction and less about useless fluff, what if the market for my first job wasn't less then $40k/yr, after tax $25k. I still ended up ok cause I was relentless with being a great architect and ended up a developer but there was nobody. The profession is just made to kick out everyone who was deemed "weak" and make everyone who got through a slave to the rich. I think anyone who got to the point of being a licensed architect is amazing. But maybe it's time for architects to demand more from our profession? Like I said, 12+ years average to get a license. I think architects deserves to be treated a little bit better.
Jul 25, 18 12:06 am ·
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archi_dude
Heer, I had made this argument a few times at work but any questioning of design dogma was grounds for immediate fast track to unemployment. You can also see with the comments on here it’s pretty pervasive in the industry. Many times I looked back and asked why don’t we do business like this to get salaries up? Why didn’t my school prepare me even with just one drafting or CD course, yup we along with many others only taught “drafting” in context of your studio final to make those first few years not so painful and not such a shock as to what the work really was. It’s a bummer because architects really are in a good spot to contribute but many it seems think their role as stated by some is “disciplining children” in keeping with good design which leaves the state of the profession to be defined by the Katrina Cottages. In my mind, the Katrina cottages is the answer to what the role of a modern architect is. Provide new groundbreaking ideas in their mind, redesigning the wheel and leaving out the roundness to everyone else.
"I am a realtor and an architect and a builder and a developer."
What are you, like 26?
Jul 24, 18 2:39 pm ·
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heeroyui
Lol, I'm definitely not 26 years old. I'm actually pretty sure I'm older then a lot of you lots. That's why I have the view that I have and hoped that the architecture industry gets better for architects. I love architecture and I think that all buildings should be designed by architects because we care. We care about society and how people live. What good is it when you lot are going through the same cycle that doesn't place architects at the forefront of development. I think all architects should be developers. I think architects should earn more money so they can be a developer. Architect should have the money and freedom to build responsibly. Not developers. This is the future I hope to see.
Jul 24, 18 5:20 pm ·
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Steeplechase
Biggest mess of a
project I’ve worked on was an architect turned developer.
"I am a realtor and an architect and a builder and a developer."
A whiny realtor. What a novelty.
Value added: 0.
Jul 24, 18 9:40 pm ·
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heeroyui
Hey miles, why are you even here? You are an artist right?
Jul 25, 18 1:25 am ·
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randomised
You need to be challenged as an architect, if you are the developer too this challenge is gone with bland and boring architecture as a result in my opinion.
Jul 25, 18 3:17 am ·
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tduds
The last job I had was a company that tried to bring Architecture, Development, Construction and Property Management under a single roof. It was a spectacular failure.
Jul 25, 18 11:32 am ·
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heeroyui
it's was only a failure cause the company wasn't trained in it. Architecture education reform is necessary for the 21st century.
Jul 25, 18 2:07 pm ·
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randomised
Maybe it's more about reforming the builders, realtors and developers to think more like architects than to reform architecture and have us become more like realtors and developers.
Jul 25, 18 3:25 pm ·
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tduds
Gigantic assumption that the company I worked for was founded by architects.
I'm going to start a list of forum trolls. It's about time to call some of these people out and ask why they don't support progress in the profession of architecture.
Jul 25, 18 2:10 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
You're the first on the list.
Jul 25, 18 2:33 pm ·
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JLC-1
...
Jul 25, 18 2:53 pm ·
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randomised
Maybe they just disagree with your idea of progress.
Jul 25, 18 3:27 pm ·
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heeroyui
non, I've seen your comments in other forums, for months you and your gang has been trolling every forum telling architects to suffer your fate as an architect which is to be a cad slave. It's about time someone called you out. Why are you hating so bad on architects who wants a better industry for the profession? Why don't you tell your corrupt money grubbing AIA spies on this website to go suck it up? The industry is and will change.
Jul 25, 18 3:32 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
I actually have not and you've called out nothing. Must be nice to be so delusional. If only I had a tin foil hat to sell you.
Jul 25, 18 3:39 pm ·
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heeroyui
Sound Familiar? "Eckhart Tolle is a fucktard. A bunch of new age generic mumbo-jumbo platitudes aimed at the lowest common-denominator. "
Jul 25, 18 4:07 pm ·
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heeroyui
Maybe start by not crowd-sourcing important life decisions.
I know, being a responsible adult is hard, but really, you got to start eventually, right?
Jul 25, 18 4:07 pm ·
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heeroyui
Nice advice...I guess this is type of "suck it up" message people need.
Jul 25, 18 4:10 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
What about it? That Tolle = fucktard comment is accurate.
Jul 25, 18 4:12 pm ·
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JLC-1
second that, tolle is a fucktard - same for coelho.
Jul 25, 18 4:17 pm ·
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heeroyui
JLC-1 & Non, why do we need to demean our own? Why don't we challenge the problem of the architecture field and make it better? I really wanted to have this conversation. Again, how can we improve our profession.
Jul 25, 18 9:07 pm ·
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Steeplechase
What problem?
Jul 25, 18 10:51 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Heero, what aspects of the profession need to be addressed? Sure, most school is heavy on the superficial designy fluff butt that's because too many studio profs are failed/dreamer designers with little practical experience. If students are too sheltered to see that they will not be designing world museums and living like rockstars, are you suggesting we include realistic projects in their studios? I've seen the good profs attempt to do that and the spoiled children revolted. Garbage in, garbage out.
Jul 25, 18 11:15 pm ·
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heeroyui
Schooling is definitely a good beginning, more engineering class, more physical construction training, it's amazing how I met graduates who have never cut a piece of wood before or have wired a lighting system or sweat a copper pipe...now the theory, construction management, real estate investment techniques, bank loans procedure, psychology and proper reaction. The point is not to be a realtor but instead to not need developers to find opportunities to built and make money. Giving architects the knowledge to be there own boss and not need to suck up to "clients". If we have the knowledge to build and the knowledge to create wealth, every architect will tell their clients who treats them like manure to f*** off. I want architects to stop making imaginary models but instead, build real architecture. Client's should be begging to work with architects not the other way around.
Jul 25, 18 11:37 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Now we're getting somewhere... although I'd respectively disagree on the blanket statement. There is a scale at which this works... but, for example, you can't expect some fresh grad to jump into concert hall, hospital, international museum, etc... type developments. I had such a course... 3 actually, but the main one had a semester long project with equal commitment requirements as studio where we took a real site with a real building and proposed an addition. We had to assemble full permit docs with any zoning amendements and provide a cost breakdown and investment return charts. It was eye opening and many students phoned-in the assignment.
The role of the modern day architect is to make it difficult for new architects to enter the profession. Their sole purpose is to either put people down employees in architecture firms in order to make themselves feel better after their clients yell at them, to wait until the last possible moment on a project to identify issues on site, to sneakily slide change orders caused by design errors past their clients, or to find a job as an adjunct professor and try to crush the dreams of any future architects in hopes that less competition will result in higher wages. This whole website and all of the people above are the embodiment of the egotism that exists in the profession and the lack of compassion and empathy that exists in our industry and everything that is wrong with it.
It astounds me that engineers and lawyers can be licensed so quickly, yet architectural licensing takes so much longer. Why is it that the NCARB process has not become reformed to mimick that of bar exam or engineering licensing programs? Is everyone asleep at the wheel?
Lastly, when it comes to salary or the lack of respect for architects in the industry, that stems from the fact that what each firm delivers to their clients is drastically different from their peers. Why is it that sustainable design, code analysis, building envelope performance and true construction knowledge are no longer the responsiblity of the architect? More often than not, I see architecture firms who push sustainability on to sustainability consultants, code review and code conformance onto the code consultants and true construction knowledge on to the sub trades and to the building inspectors who flag the issues with the drawing set and in the field. These same firms then think that it is perfectly o.k. to charge the same amount of money as the other firms who do all of this in house and include this in their standard fee and then try to force the Developer (GP) and their LP to soak up the cost of the additional consultants just so they can shift liability onto others. Additionally, the definition of construction administration in each contract is so drastically different. What's the point to construction adminstration if the architects don't flag the issues on site as they come up?
I leave you with questions: If it takes so long to become a licensed architect and is so much more laborious than becoming a lawyer or engineer, then why is there so much discrepancy in the level of service being delivered to the clients? Shouldn't a rediculously long licensing process result in more consistency? Shouldn't a lengthier licensing process result in higher wages than other professions with less lengthy licensing processes? Why can't you get IDP credit from working for real estate developers, construction companies or for sub trades? Why is there a period of 3 years that you have to report your IDP hours? When you take a look at the passing rate for the NCARB exams, does anyone ever stop to think that the questions within the exam might be written poorly or in an ambiguous manner, which is why the pass rate is currently so low?
If we had more licensed architects, maybe those who really suck at what they do would get pushed out faster. Currently, as I see it, the architectural licensing process is purely about who has the patience and stamina to want to deal with the current broken system and who are willing to pay all the rediculous yearly fees to those who already exist in the "special" circle of arrogance.
I apologize in advance to all of you that set the bar and who provide the excellent level of service and design that we compare against all others who are inferior to you.
Oct 3, 18 3:59 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Damn teenager angst is strong here. The picture you paint here is not reality.
Thanks for your thoughtful dialogue Rick. The modern day meaning of “architect” has become skewed by NCARB and the AIA and is something I whole heartedly believe should be addressed. There are so many talented professionals who I have come across that will never be able to call themselves “architects” because the process is still too laborious and so many believe it is not worth the effort.
I applaud you for taking the time to complete the CPBD process, that must have taken years of experience and training to do so. I am unsure if you chose not to become licensed as an architect yourself or if you succeffully chose to become licensed. In any case, it is clear that you see the importance in truly understanding and being knowledgeable in each of the various skills in the profession.
The thing that I find confusing is that there are so many parts to the exam process but when an “architect” is working in the profession and charging for their services, they do not provide all of those services to their client in their base fee. When an architect advertises themselves as such, they should show competence in all of the areas within the exam process. And yes, as we all know, not all clients want all of the same services but I believe it becomes an issue when there is not a proper apples to apples comparison and irrespective of the items that get sourced out to others, that lots of architects still demand the same fee of others who do provide all of those services in their fees.
Since when did we decide that “code review/consulting”, “building envelope design” , “energy performance” or “sustainability” should fall outside the definition of architect? If we did not, then why are they charged as such?
What ever happened to “master builders” or “chief builders”? I have met so many brilliant unlicensed architects who are so much more qualified than some of the “licensed architects”. The definition of architect lost its meaning long ago when the A.I.A., NCARB and the various other licensing bodies stepped in to create a set of rules which only added a wasteful administration process which does a poor job of weeding out the good from the bad.
With respect to IDP/AXP, of which are both terms still used on the NCARB website, I was referring to being able to submit hours previously worked and how there is a time limitation by which one must submit them which I do not find to be relavent. If a woman goes to architecture school, then works for a period of years in the profession and then leaves the industry briefly to look after children, and then returns to the industry, that prior experience is no longer worth anything in the eyes of NCARB. During her time off from the industry she would have needed to stay current on her fees so her experience and any documentation is not deleted from the system. Why instead can applicants not submit their qualifying hours when they are ready to apply for licensure and complete their exams? I fail to understand why that experience is no longer relevent. Did they somehow lose everything they learned during that period? I also fail to understand why physically performing manual labor in the field of construction, working for General Contractors , Financiers and Developers are not suitable ways to gain experience. After all, that’s how architects became master builders historically.
I would love for some of the graduates from Taliesen to pipe in.
Oct 3, 18 7:09 am ·
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Non Sequitur
"Since when did we decide that “code review/consulting”, “building envelope design” , “energy performance” or “sustainability” should fall outside the definition of architect? If we did not, then why are they charged as such?"
Not all architects exclude these, you just need to broaden your job search.
Oct 3, 18 8:06 am ·
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Steeplechase
This whole complaint seems based on not really knowing enough. Different architects and firms determine the scope of their services. The most basic reason to bring on consultants is scale. At some point work has to be delegated, so might as well delegate to someone with expertise. The architect still has to coordinate all of these consultants and understand what
they are doing. I’m fairly certain AXP hours don’t expire, just the exams. The timeframe to report hours is measured in months, not days, and shouldn’t be difficult to manage. Some experience can be earned through construction work.
Many P.As. force many of us to be just BIM WITS and discourage us from self actualizing into architects - too many elitists
Oct 3, 18 12:43 pm ·
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randomised
Easy to blame those "elitist" PA's for your own shortcomings...
Oct 3, 18 1:07 pm ·
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joseffischer
"Elitist" PA's... hah, as a PA I feel like I'm at the bottom of the totem pole... I guess that makes interns, etc some place far removed from the totem pole at all.
Eco Gen, I’m not sure you are quite getting it. Think of an architect like a composer/conductor of an orchestra. That person knows what every single sounds like and how to get the most out of it; but isn’t an expert at every instrument. So they hire those other experts. That violinist might be able to teach the conductor a thing or two about how to get more out of that violin piece of the ballad and what the violin can do; but that isn’t the same as being able to compose and conduct a full orchestra. It’s also more than just keeping a beat; they’ll need to understand how the listener reacts emotionally, acoustics, lighting, staging, marketing, and on and on and on. And if they make a mistake; big f’n deal.. no one gets hurts. That’s just the aesthetic (audial) side of creation. Licensed architects have to know a lot more than just aesthetics.
Architects have to know code, understand all aspects of life safety, effects of mother nature on buildings, and a hundred other things to avoid travesty. In worst case, if we screw up, people die, get hurt, and get sick. Ever dealt with a building collapse? I have. It’s not just structural. Screw up your rated separations and exiting, and the fire will overwhelm the occupants and they’ll die unable to get out before the structure is compromised and collapses around them. Even dumb stuff like rail attachments I’ve seen screwed up in the details where the eventual issue becomes a failure and someone plunges to their death just by leaning on that rail. It’s why States highly regulate architects. Rick’s certificate doesn’t allow over two stories; that is a survivable fall and it won’t take long to get out in a small building like that (yet people still die). In most jurisdictions, anyone can design a house without any training.
Architects aren’t limited like that and jurisdictions need some sort of reasonable way of making sure the folks designing buildings know enough to keep the general public reasonably safe. We’re often dealing with several hundred people inside our buildings at any given moment. Some jackass off the street or a kid straight out of school has no f’n idea or forethought about that technical side of being able to detail how to avoid tragedy.
Architects are the only people involved in the construction process who know enough about everything construction related to make educated, informed decisions and give direction. Your engineers know more about their discipline, but not enough about the rest to understand the full impact of decisions; your structural won’t know mechanical, your landscape arch won’t understand curtainwall, etc. Your GC may know a ton, but most of that knowledge isn’t tested or regulated; it was gained through experience and you can just as easily end up with someone who isn’t that knowledgeable and barely passed their contractor license exam (the PM may not even hold any sort of certifications). Even your plans examiner and inspectors lack a big picture education and testing requirements; an open book three hour test my sister (architect) passed without even studying. It is the architect who is cross trained through multiple disciplines and construction methods that holds the reins and leads the process. 6.0 earthquake hits Indonesia resulting in multiple collapses and hundreds of deaths. 5.6 earthquake hits the channel islands in CA off the LA coast last April, no significant damage and no fatalities. Massive differences and impacts to society. The high level of regulations do work reasonably enough when you look at them from an overall society perspective…
The counter argument always seems to be ‘I know a guy who knows a lot and could out do an architect; Fantastic, I don’t doubt it. Now prove it to someone who doesn’t know this fella…. Oh yea, you probably need some sort of test for that as well as some sort of experience/training history and peer reviews by someone who has proven they know a thing or two…. Hence the accredited degree proving the educational experience, the experience history (internship under the guidance of someone already licensed), and a test to prove you know the basics in a variety of subjects…
Oct 3, 18 1:51 pm ·
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Gloominati
It's not the case in every state that you can't use another state's license in that state. There are some (NY included) that have a streamlined project-specific alternative to reciprocity, where instead of reviewing your record and issuing their own state's license, they essentially take the other state's word for it that you're qualified and then they let you stamp that set with the other state's seal (you just have to staple the permission letter to your cover sheet). For example if you're in Connecticut and you rarely do NY projects but one falls into your lap, rather than go through NY's time-consuming and expensive reciprocity process and paying NCARB to transmit your record and paying NY for your license dues there, you just apply for permission to use your CT stamp on that specific project in NY. You should be careful about making statements about what is or isn't "generally" allowed or what you are "supposed to" do, as you don't seem to have all the facts about anyplace but Oregon.
What is the role of today's architect?
I wanted to start this topic and see what everyone's thought about it is and how we can start a discussion about the future of architects and the industry. From what I'm seeing, while the requirement to be a licensed architect in US is extremely difficult, 5 years school, 7 exams, 3 years experience (Average 12.5 to 15 years, base on NCARB survey, https://www.ncarb.org/press/20...). I have't seen architects in general being successful in society. Architects are not educated in real estate investments so we can't get funding for our own projects and I haven't seen any young architect coming out of school that actually knows how to build... this is very concerning to me. It seems that in today's age, the true architect is the Developers, the GC, and the Engineers...where does that leave us?
Where does it leave us? Who cares where the special millennial snowflakes fall, more work for me and all the others that valued construction and design equally during school and therefore know how to put together a building.
What is your background, are you an architect?
I can’t stand these snowflakes myself. I have a guy at my office you comes crying to me everyday that the boss yelled at him! Suck it up!!!! Fuck!!!!!
How did you value construction during school? This would get you a lot of negative attention in my school. School is very much about architecture and if you showed signs of interest in buildings, there was a social cost to it. Grades would suffer if you showed that you were interested in building instead of mind-blowing masterpieces of space and form. And in the long run,
maybe that was ok. It's all a game.
Shouldn't try to type on my phone, sorry.
Heavy abstraction got A's. You didn't do buildings, you did spaces. Anything resembling real life got you C's and D's. I think that was the height of that era though, hopefully an anomaly. I have been to other school studios where kids were trying to make ramps ADA accessible which was celebrated there but was not something you would get positive attention for where I was. Our 2-3 practicing professors were shunned by all the others for producing actual buildings with all their silly limitations. The non-practicing professors preached about paradigm shift.
That was my university as well. It was sad. My degree is worth less than a piece of toilet paper in my opinion. What I learned in the profession is ten fold more than I ever learned in the studio. Half the kids at my school couldn’t draw a flashing detail if their life depended on it.
Tint, heavy abstraction was the game winner strategy in my undergrad too. I went as far as using acrylics and pallet knives to "draft" my elevations and floor plans in one studio. (got an A too). My point was that one needs to take the other business, prof prac, specifications, technical, etc courses with the same level of effort... My colleagues from the same school who did not place equal care are the same wankers still today complaining that exams are too difficult, low wages, no management roles,etc etc etc... my 2 cents worth
I think you are right.
That sort of self-serving, theory-for-theory's-sake envelope pushing is what drove me away from the Ivory Towers and into a state school for my MArch. Less debt too!
Among 'my A' projects: one drafted with make-up... eye shadow, lipstick, etc. One about a wormhole and some deep stuff about light and dark. One was a performance piece with surreal poetry. One was a presentation with no words, only music. One that ended up being about 40 feet by 20 feet of drawings on the floor, like one of those maps you can stand on. Another that was a building that was a partially submerged 'capsule'. <-- free ideas!
One about sex (topic chosen by professor). Another was a dome built up with jenga-like structure where the gaps were stuffed with glass orbs (like marbles) to catch n throw the light. My classmates all hated that one, professor loved it. Another was a kinetic machine/sculpture that you could wind up. It had blades to cut you if you stood too close.
Three out of my four non-thesis graduate studios dealt with sites and programs that were later developed in ways nearly identical to my designs. ... State school y'all!
Then my thesis re-imagined neighborhood housing as an evolving virus and the for / against reactions aligned precisely with "Who is younger than 60?" Too wild for state school, that one.
"Architects are not educated in real estate investments so we can't get funding for our own projects and I haven't seen any young architect coming out of school that actually knows how to build... this is very concerning to me. It seems that in today's age, the true architect is the Developers, the GC, and the Engineers...where does that leave us?"
I'd say then you do not know what architects do, the value they provide, or how to sell it. I'm guessing you aren't an architect based on the idea you seem to think we're easily replaced by those other trades.
You can say all those same things about a Developer, the GC, and the Engineers; they are also clueless about how stuff works coming out of school. Do you honestly think someone with a degree in Real Estate knows about entitlements, funding, etc.? Do you think a construction management degree means they know how to put together a building? Basically, I don't care what degree you get, you aren't ever going to know the business with just a few years of classroom lectures and homework. That comes over time.
Furthermore, I seriously doubt any of them could design something where people want to be from scratch; Every single one of them REVIEWS the conceptual design and adds their own unique little world of expertise based on their own perspectives. But none of them CREATE and none of them can take a generic verbal client program and develop that into a fully functional building. They simply aren't trained to deal with filling in the blanks.
"They simply aren't trained to deal with filling in the blanks."
This comment made me recall an old science teacher in high school who used to say that answers are easy ... coming up with questions is the hard part. He would then elaborate that answering something like a math problem is easy, coming up with the concept of numbers and mathematics in order to ask the question in the first place was the hard part.
Perhaps they could fill in the blanks if the blanks are presented to them ... but figuring out where the blanks are in order to ask how they need to be filled is the hard part.
That's brilliant EA.
@Non Sequitur I think looking at the bigger picture will help you individually dramatically. For example, for society to understand the value of an architect will help you have a larger leverage to charge a higher fee. We all know what a doctor or a lawyer does. But for architects to need to explain what our value is devalues us and we lose time and money explaining.
In addition, base on some of the responses and what an architect's role is suppose to be, it seems to me that we don't need a license that takes 12+ years to get? And if not, what's the value of the license, the license that you all paid thousands of dollars and years of abuse for? (I think this is how society and the industry sees us... what's the point?)
In regards to schooling, I think at least the real estate graduates have a better foundation for what they do for less schooling time and cost. It's disheartening to work with graduates who doesn't even know the standard water to cement ratio or the proper grout type for standard masonry work.
The corruption and lies in our industry is unbelievable.
We all suffer from it but we blame each other for being soft. Why do we do this to each other?
We all know architecture education and NCARB/NAAB is fraud and exploits young architects with passion for money but we accept it.
It's just weird for people who loves architecture so much to hate so much on other people who has the same love for architecture.
What part of "our" industry is yours?
I have half a $billion (that's with a B) in built projects over the last 9 years.
"In addition, base on some of the responses and what an architect's role is suppose to be, it seems to me that we don't need a license that takes 12+ years to get?"
Incorrect, the license takes roughly 3 to 5years of real world experience. School counts for little.
corruption and lies in our industry? could you elaborate?
1. So out of the half a billion $ how much did you pay your architect?
he is the architect
Trust me, I'm sure he didn't architect his own project.
Let's see. New member since ... today, total of 5 posts, and knows more than everyone here on the forum.
Sounds about right.
why are you even here if you don't support architects?
where else are we going to go to not support architects?
Yeah. Choosing the drink instead of replying to this wanker was a good choice.
Well, using rule of thumb NCARB logic, Non has helped his firms bring him $30-50 mil in revenue (6-10% fees?). Using the low number, his firms have paid their employees (including non) 1/3 of that in salaries (so $10 mil on the low end) and considering teams/fees include engineering staff/consultants interns, PA, PM, etc... I'm guessing 20-30 employees are somehow involved in Non's projects, so Non's probably seen roughly $300-500,000 of that in salary over the years. Just my wild guess.
Good one Joe.... keep in mind that my numbers are in Canadian loonies so 400million USD on a good day. Fee % are typically 3 to 5% for commercial here and although I'm not sure on proffit margins (too many moving targets), I quickly calculated I've overseen the full completion of $475million (CAD) just looking at 4 projects and of those fees, I've seen well over $500k in salary during that time.
I miss reading stuff from that semi-troll guy that everyone loves to hate, but can't live without from Astoria Oregon, who's that again?lol
architecture is meant to transcend the built environment
It seems that this OP is a new poster. We've had this discussion about licensure and shortcomings of education so many times. Does no one know how to use the search function?? I feel like this is another student post looking to get help on a homework assignment.
Why don't you support young architects and the architecture field? And no, I'm not a student. This post is not about short comings. I've been through it. This post is about how to make the architecture industry better for architects...
Are you an architect?
do you need to ask?
It's not evident from your posts.
Architects provide value the same way a modern artist provides value. You have to be trained in it to appreciate it. So unfortunately, outside of an architects perspective, the role of an architect is permits. What then makes a good architect is one who gets permits on the agreed schedule and then performs a supportive role in CA and VE vs. an adversarial one fighting to keep their gold plated prefab wall panels and ultra designed wall sconces that cost as much as a car.
Best real-world answer so far.
You probably won't notice what architects do until they don't.
Its a lot like being a parent.
... of a spoiled child.
So the question is, the real estate (includes construction, development, etc) industry have basically pushed architects out. These individuals have gotten into our associations and education system and devalued all future architect prospects.
As an architect, I'm concern about the future of the architecture profession but the response I get when trying to discuss this topic is... You're spoiled, suck it up. I know what I've gone through to get to where I am today so I don't feel the need to justify myself here.
And there's no doubt that I'm sure these individuals are apart of the corrupt associations that's trying to kill the architecture profession. A part of the associations that extort money from architects.
The problem is, there's too many nasty bitter and evil architects out there. I truly hope that young architects meets less of you all. We architects need to stick together & protect our profession.
i am currently working on a project where i sit in a conference room with the developer, the developer's finance guy that hustles banks and investors, the leasing agent that gets the tenants, and the contractor. they didn't cut us out. on the other hand, it isn't all about me and pleasing my oversized ego. i have a certain scope in the project, but there are a lot of other people with other scopes. for the project to be successful, those people need to be successful along with me.
if you don't understand what your job as an architect is, you're never going to get a seat at the table. granted i'm bitter and evil, but i don't think that's a prerequisite. i can assure you this has nothing to do with "corrupt associations." this is about you not understanding what value you provide to others.
The problem is we know what we do but the public doesn't. Also, please explain to me what you think an architect does that other trades can't replicate or do?
In addition, are you a partner or are they paying you just 15%? And how much work are you doing compared to them?
my job is ultimately to add value to my client's business model.
i am not a partner, i am a wage slave.
The OP sounds like the nasty and bitter people s/he's complaining about.
Definitely not as bitter as you.
Some stupid people are happy. You are apparently the exception that proves the rule.
The problem is that many grads don’t really want to be architects...so they blame the profession for not meeting their expectations rather than create the path that they would rather travel.
If they graduated out of a 5 year program and gained nothing out of it, I'm sure they have the dedication to be an architect. I always look at the NBA and wonder how a guy throwing a ball in a hoop can get millions and millions of dollars. I just think that their associations represented them well. Our associations are pretty crappy.
They bring out crowds and sell tickets and merchandise. Two different things.
people want to pay to be entertained. they don't like paying their architects.
heeroyui, just because you got nothing out of your degree does not mean others did not as well... and that NBA comparison removes what little credibility you had left.
Non, you never had any credibility. I really am not sure why you are so bitter... and naive to the truth. Why dont we make architecture entertaining or something that people actually like. Its call trying something new or being innovative. Your lack of imagination is disturbing...
Lack of imagination? Non credibility? All this from a weekend warrior realtor? Sure... my clients are happy with the many buildings I’ve already done. Don’t see why you’re so bitter. Perhaps it’s because you defaulted to an actual dying profession (realtor) instead of doing something challenging.
I’m confused. How is the person who is enjoying their career and finding success in it the one who is bitter? What does that make those who don’t like it and try to find boogeymen?
wonder how a guy throwing a ball in a hoop can get millions and millions of dollars
How many do you see throwing a ball for millions of dollars? it takes decades for a prof player to get to that level, since they're 2 yrs old - How many hours have you effectively invested in your pursue of success? whatever that is, is not instant; those billionerds in mountain view? it's a different wiring, can't fake it or work towards, just flashes of genius(?) that VCs have for blood sucking....
Be happy, that's the measure of your own success.
success=money? there's your problem. look no further.
Nobody learns how to actually do anything in higher education, you learn once you hit the real world. It's a problem with the educational system, not just architecture. Or it's not a problem, and just a fact of life.
At least in the residential world where I have always worked, architects and designers have two roles: plan a construction project, and provide entertainment for the client.
You can add "creating art" and "making the world a better place" and whatever else you want, but at the heart of the matter are those two items.
To be productive with this conversation, I'm hearing in order for architects to be less bitter, just be happy with your job and don't worry about getting paid, our industry is never going to improve like others, everyone will always get paid more then you but you'll do all the work, suck it up, there's 1 architect who'll be successful while everyone fail.
Is there anything else I missed?
"Is there anything else I missed?"
Yes there is something you missed: everything.
You haven’t stated what needs to be improved. Maybe you’re bitterness is a more personal problem?
money, she/he wants more money, get paid like a stock broker at 26, without knowing shit.
Your general discontent means nothing without providing more info on what you want out of it all. If it’s more money, open a firm and make more money. If it’s more creativity and design, figure a way to do that and get paid. I’m not really sure who you think is responsible for your future and happiness. In case you don’t know, it’s you.
he/she is nothing but a disgruntled realtor.
No, money alone ain't it, nor is being really good at it, nor intellectually challenging, nor the quality of the projects, etc.. You really need to enjoy the work you do consistently. Find that, and you'll be happy. For me, that is rare; I've never regretted not going in when I ditch but often regret not just staying in bed when I'm at work. So I convince myself a large salary is 'worth' it.... and I'll do that tomorrow morning too, and the next, and the next..
But if the goal is to create art, which is a good goal, then create art. If it’s to make money, then make money. People are too caught up with “the profession” as if it’s some mandated rigid mold you have to fit. Design your own life. Following the “path to x” is a recipe for disaster. Make your own path. Best advice I ever got was “your most important design project is to design your life.”
What is the role of today's architect?
To whine and complain on Archinect, of course.
My role is simple:
For the first 10% of a project, I am an artist.
For the next 60% of a project, I am an orchestra conductor.
For the last 30% of a project, I am an air traffic controller.
The best advice I ever got from a professor was: "You don't need to know all of this, you only need to know enough to know when your consultant / GC / client is lying to you." Most of my job is calling bullshit on bullshit and preventing crashes before they happen. Usually immediately before they happen.
After looking at this conversation, I can see why the profession is becoming a joke. This really is not about philosophy or bitterness. It's about reality. While I have passion for the profession and the art of building, if money is respect, we are on the bottom of it, that's a fact. Non, I am a realtor and an architect and a builder and a developer. I started my career as an architect and wondered how architects looked at themselves now and where they see themselves in the future. You've confirmed that the profession is going down the dumps. Developers will always treat you like the manure you are and the associations will always steal from you cause you all are ok with it. I'm asking to see if you lot wanted more from your profession and the associations that represents you and the answer is No, I like being stepped on.
Cool story, but your opinion does not reflect the experience you claim. I guess you're just damaged beyond repair as is evident from all the responses above. And no downwards spiral from my point of view for those who understand the profession.
You just lost all of your credibility and respect of all architects...
Architects are problem solvers. How can you provide any answers when you can't even identify the problem...Seriously, which corrupt association is paying you to make these ridiculous comments on Archinect?
Seriously? I expected better, even from a realtor.
money is not respect; if it was, teachers would make the most and not cocaine crooks in wall street.
It doesn't work that way. Respect doesn't mean money but in the construction industry, receiving money is respect. It means, you've done your job and well enough to get paid. The problem is there is a lot of scum who doesn't pay. Which means that they don't have enough respect for you as a human being to pay... Stay away from them and don't work with them.
no, receiving money in construction is 90% about leverage and very little to do with how good of a job you do. having said that, a tight set of drawings leaves less room for the contractor/subs to take advantage of change orders. of course the architect doesn't get paid more for avoiding change orders, so i suppose the reward for a job well done is just a little less annoying CA process.
I don’t think it’s that crazy to expect the professional organizations to back up better education geared for 21st century realities and also provide public awareness and better business practices awareness among members. Why are you bashing this guy so much?
Thank you. You give me hope...
I could be off-base, but I have trouble subscribing to the idea that it's a zero-sum game, which is the mindset I got from the original post.
Beyond that, I just have little patience for someone who asks a question only to tell people that their answers to the question are wrong. I don't think I'm in a particularly unique station in my career, and most of the cynicism / fatalism about architecture put forth in this thread simply hasn't been my experience.
Maybe a little willingness to entertain alternative viewpoints would yield a little less hostility in response.
I don't mind the hostility. I've been facing it all my career, it's what it's like to be an architect, overcoming hostility and pushing to learn more and getting better. I already know the hostile individuals mainly Non and Miles Jaffe are just BS-ers. I don't even know if they are even architects. I wish they would think about other architects more not just about themselves. I want the profession to improve. While I'm doing well now, I seem to be one of the few who remember how difficult it was coming out of school. No support, in massive school debts, many all nighters, weekend construction work. 3am ARE study sessions, free pro bono work for IDP. I look back at it and I wonder what if I had more support. What if school taught more about construction and less about useless fluff, what if the market for my first job wasn't less then $40k/yr, after tax $25k. I still ended up ok cause I was relentless with being a great architect and ended up a developer but there was nobody. The profession is just made to kick out everyone who was deemed "weak" and make everyone who got through a slave to the rich. I think anyone who got to the point of being a licensed architect is amazing. But maybe it's time for architects to demand more from our profession? Like I said, 12+ years average to get a license. I think architects deserves to be treated a little bit better.
Heer, I had made this argument a few times at work but any questioning of design dogma was grounds for immediate fast track to unemployment. You can also see with the comments on here it’s pretty pervasive in the industry. Many times I looked back and asked why don’t we do business like this to get salaries up? Why didn’t my school prepare me even with just one drafting or CD course, yup we along with many others only taught “drafting” in context of your studio final to make those first few years not so painful and not such a shock as to what the work really was. It’s a bummer because architects really are in a good spot to contribute but many it seems think their role as stated by some is “disciplining children” in keeping with good design which leaves the state of the profession to be defined by the Katrina Cottages. In my mind, the Katrina cottages is the answer to what the role of a modern architect is. Provide new groundbreaking ideas in their mind, redesigning the wheel and leaving out the roundness to everyone else.
"I am a realtor and an architect and a builder and a developer."
What are you, like 26?
Lol, I'm definitely not 26 years old. I'm actually pretty sure I'm older then a lot of you lots. That's why I have the view that I have and hoped that the architecture industry gets better for architects. I love architecture and I think that all buildings should be designed by architects because we care. We care about society and how people live. What good is it when you lot are going through the same cycle that doesn't place architects at the forefront of development. I think all architects should be developers. I think architects should earn more money so they can be a developer. Architect should have the money and freedom to build responsibly. Not developers. This is the future I hope to see.
Biggest mess of a
project I’ve worked on was an architect turned developer.
"I am a realtor and an architect and a builder and a developer."
A whiny realtor. What a novelty.
Value added: 0.
Hey miles, why are you even here? You are an artist right?
You need to be challenged as an architect, if you are the developer too this challenge is gone with bland and boring architecture as a result in my opinion.
The last job I had was a company that tried to bring Architecture, Development, Construction and Property Management under a single roof. It was a spectacular failure.
it's was only a failure cause the company wasn't trained in it. Architecture education reform is necessary for the 21st century.
Maybe it's more about reforming the builders, realtors and developers to think more like architects than to reform architecture and have us become more like realtors and developers.
Gigantic assumption that the company I worked for was founded by architects.
I'm going to start a list of forum trolls. It's about time to call some of these people out and ask why they don't support progress in the profession of architecture.
You're the first on the list.
...
Maybe they just disagree with your idea of progress.
non, I've seen your comments in other forums, for months you and your gang has been trolling every forum telling architects to suffer your fate as an architect which is to be a cad slave. It's about time someone called you out. Why are you hating so bad on architects who wants a better industry for the profession? Why don't you tell your corrupt money grubbing AIA spies on this website to go suck it up? The industry is and will change.
I actually have not and you've called out nothing. Must be nice to be so delusional. If only I had a tin foil hat to sell you.
Sound Familiar? "Eckhart Tolle is a fucktard. A bunch of new age generic mumbo-jumbo platitudes aimed at the lowest common-denominator. "
Maybe start by not crowd-sourcing important life decisions. I know, being a responsible adult is hard, but really, you got to start eventually, right?
Nice advice...I guess this is type of "suck it up" message people need.
What about it? That Tolle = fucktard comment is accurate.
second that, tolle is a fucktard - same for coelho.
JLC-1 & Non, why do we need to demean our own? Why don't we challenge the problem of the architecture field and make it better? I really wanted to have this conversation. Again, how can we improve our profession.
What problem?
Heero, what aspects of the profession need to be addressed? Sure, most school is heavy on the superficial designy fluff butt that's because too many studio profs are failed/dreamer designers with little practical experience. If students are too sheltered to see that they will not be designing world museums and living like rockstars, are you suggesting we include realistic projects in their studios? I've seen the good profs attempt to do that and the spoiled children revolted. Garbage in, garbage out.
Schooling is definitely a good beginning, more engineering class, more physical construction training, it's amazing how I met graduates who have never cut a piece of wood before or have wired a lighting system or sweat a copper pipe...now the theory, construction management, real estate investment techniques, bank loans procedure, psychology and proper reaction. The point is not to be a realtor but instead to not need developers to find opportunities to built and make money. Giving architects the knowledge to be there own boss and not need to suck up to "clients". If we have the knowledge to build and the knowledge to create wealth, every architect will tell their clients who treats them like manure to f*** off. I want architects to stop making imaginary models but instead, build real architecture. Client's should be begging to work with architects not the other way around.
Now we're getting somewhere... although I'd respectively disagree on the blanket statement. There is a scale at which this works... but, for example, you can't expect some fresh grad to jump into concert hall, hospital, international museum, etc... type developments. I had such a course... 3 actually, but the main one had a semester long project with equal commitment requirements as studio where we took a real site with a real building and proposed an addition. We had to assemble full permit docs with any zoning amendements and provide a cost breakdown and investment return charts. It was eye opening and many students phoned-in the assignment.
"...and ask why they don't support progress in the profession of architecture."
I believe that's known as begging the question.
tdud, what do you think can be done to make the profession better?
The role of the modern day architect is to make it difficult for new architects to enter the profession. Their sole purpose is to either put people down employees in architecture firms in order to make themselves feel better after their clients yell at them, to wait until the last possible moment on a project to identify issues on site, to sneakily slide change orders caused by design errors past their clients, or to find a job as an adjunct professor and try to crush the dreams of any future architects in hopes that less competition will result in higher wages. This whole website and all of the people above are the embodiment of the egotism that exists in the profession and the lack of compassion and empathy that exists in our industry and everything that is wrong with it.
It astounds me that engineers and lawyers can be licensed so quickly, yet architectural licensing takes so much longer. Why is it that the NCARB process has not become reformed to mimick that of bar exam or engineering licensing programs? Is everyone asleep at the wheel?
Lastly, when it comes to salary or the lack of respect for architects in the industry, that stems from the fact that what each firm delivers to their clients is drastically different from their peers. Why is it that sustainable design, code analysis, building envelope performance and true construction knowledge are no longer the responsiblity of the architect? More often than not, I see architecture firms who push sustainability on to sustainability consultants, code review and code conformance onto the code consultants and true construction knowledge on to the sub trades and to the building inspectors who flag the issues with the drawing set and in the field. These same firms then think that it is perfectly o.k. to charge the same amount of money as the other firms who do all of this in house and include this in their standard fee and then try to force the Developer (GP) and their LP to soak up the cost of the additional consultants just so they can shift liability onto others. Additionally, the definition of construction administration in each contract is so drastically different. What's the point to construction adminstration if the architects don't flag the issues on site as they come up?
I leave you with questions: If it takes so long to become a licensed architect and is so much more laborious than becoming a lawyer or engineer, then why is there so much discrepancy in the level of service being delivered to the clients? Shouldn't a rediculously long licensing process result in more consistency? Shouldn't a lengthier licensing process result in higher wages than other professions with less lengthy licensing processes? Why can't you get IDP credit from working for real estate developers, construction companies or for sub trades? Why is there a period of 3 years that you have to report your IDP hours? When you take a look at the passing rate for the NCARB exams, does anyone ever stop to think that the questions within the exam might be written poorly or in an ambiguous manner, which is why the pass rate is currently so low?
If we had more licensed architects, maybe those who really suck at what they do would get pushed out faster. Currently, as I see it, the architectural licensing process is purely about who has the patience and stamina to want to deal with the current broken system and who are willing to pay all the rediculous yearly fees to those who already exist in the "special" circle of arrogance.
I apologize in advance to all of you that set the bar and who provide the excellent level of service and design that we compare against all others who are inferior to you.
Damn teenager angst is strong here. The picture you paint here is not reality.
Thanks for your thoughtful dialogue Rick. The modern day meaning of “architect” has become skewed by NCARB and the AIA and is something I whole heartedly believe should be addressed. There are so many talented professionals who I have come across that will never be able to call themselves “architects” because the process is still too laborious and so many believe it is not worth the effort.
I applaud you for taking the time to complete the CPBD process, that must have taken years of experience and training to do so. I am unsure if you chose not to become licensed as an architect yourself or if you succeffully chose to become licensed. In any case, it is clear that you see the importance in truly understanding and being knowledgeable in each of the various skills in the profession.
The thing that I find confusing is that there are so many parts to the exam process but when an “architect” is working in the profession and charging for their services, they do not provide all of those services to their client in their base fee. When an architect advertises themselves as such, they should show competence in all of the areas within the exam process. And yes, as we all know, not all clients want all of the same services but I believe it becomes an issue when there is not a proper apples to apples comparison and irrespective of the items that get sourced out to others, that lots of architects still demand the same fee of others who do provide all of those services in their fees.
Since when did we decide that “code review/consulting”, “building envelope design” , “energy performance” or “sustainability” should fall outside the definition of architect? If we did not, then why are they charged as such?
What ever happened to “master builders” or “chief builders”? I have met so many brilliant unlicensed architects who are so much more qualified than some of the “licensed architects”. The definition of architect lost its meaning long ago when the A.I.A., NCARB and the various other licensing bodies stepped in to create a set of rules which only added a wasteful administration process which does a poor job of weeding out the good from the bad.
With respect to IDP/AXP, of which are both terms still used on the NCARB website, I was referring to being able to submit hours previously worked and how there is a time limitation by which one must submit them which I do not find to be relavent. If a woman goes to architecture school, then works for a period of years in the profession and then leaves the industry briefly to look after children, and then returns to the industry, that prior experience is no longer worth anything in the eyes of NCARB. During her time off from the industry she would have needed to stay current on her fees so her experience and any documentation is not deleted from the system. Why instead can applicants not submit their qualifying hours when they are ready to apply for licensure and complete their exams? I fail to understand why that experience is no longer relevent. Did they somehow lose everything they learned during that period? I also fail to understand why physically performing manual labor in the field of construction, working for General Contractors , Financiers and Developers are not suitable ways to gain experience. After all, that’s how architects became master builders historically.
I would love for some of the graduates from Taliesen to pipe in.
"Since when did we decide that “code review/consulting”, “building envelope design” , “energy performance” or “sustainability” should fall outside the definition of architect? If we did not, then why are they charged as such?"
Not all architects exclude these, you just need to broaden your job search.
This whole complaint seems based on not really knowing enough. Different architects and firms determine the scope of their services. The most basic reason to bring on consultants is scale. At some point work has to be delegated, so might as well delegate to someone with expertise. The architect still has to coordinate all of these consultants and understand what
they are doing. I’m fairly certain AXP hours don’t expire, just the exams. The timeframe to report hours is measured in months, not days, and shouldn’t be difficult to manage. Some experience can be earned through construction work.
Many P.As. force many of us to be just BIM WITS and discourage us from self actualizing into architects - too many elitists
Easy to blame those "elitist" PA's for your own shortcomings...
"Elitist" PA's... hah, as a PA I feel like I'm at the bottom of the totem pole... I guess that makes interns, etc some place far removed from the totem pole at all.
Eco Gen, I’m not sure you are quite getting it. Think of an architect like a composer/conductor of an orchestra. That person knows what every single sounds like and how to get the most out of it; but isn’t an expert at every instrument. So they hire those other experts. That violinist might be able to teach the conductor a thing or two about how to get more out of that violin piece of the ballad and what the violin can do; but that isn’t the same as being able to compose and conduct a full orchestra. It’s also more than just keeping a beat; they’ll need to understand how the listener reacts emotionally, acoustics, lighting, staging, marketing, and on and on and on. And if they make a mistake; big f’n deal.. no one gets hurts. That’s just the aesthetic (audial) side of creation. Licensed architects have to know a lot more than just aesthetics.
Architects have to know code, understand all aspects of life safety, effects of mother nature on buildings, and a hundred other things to avoid travesty. In worst case, if we screw up, people die, get hurt, and get sick. Ever dealt with a building collapse? I have. It’s not just structural. Screw up your rated separations and exiting, and the fire will overwhelm the occupants and they’ll die unable to get out before the structure is compromised and collapses around them. Even dumb stuff like rail attachments I’ve seen screwed up in the details where the eventual issue becomes a failure and someone plunges to their death just by leaning on that rail. It’s why States highly regulate architects. Rick’s certificate doesn’t allow over two stories; that is a survivable fall and it won’t take long to get out in a small building like that (yet people still die). In most jurisdictions, anyone can design a house without any training.
Architects aren’t limited like that and jurisdictions need some sort of reasonable way of making sure the folks designing buildings know enough to keep the general public reasonably safe. We’re often dealing with several hundred people inside our buildings at any given moment. Some jackass off the street or a kid straight out of school has no f’n idea or forethought about that technical side of being able to detail how to avoid tragedy.
Architects are the only people involved in the construction process who know enough about everything construction related to make educated, informed decisions and give direction. Your engineers know more about their discipline, but not enough about the rest to understand the full impact of decisions; your structural won’t know mechanical, your landscape arch won’t understand curtainwall, etc. Your GC may know a ton, but most of that knowledge isn’t tested or regulated; it was gained through experience and you can just as easily end up with someone who isn’t that knowledgeable and barely passed their contractor license exam (the PM may not even hold any sort of certifications). Even your plans examiner and inspectors lack a big picture education and testing requirements; an open book three hour test my sister (architect) passed without even studying. It is the architect who is cross trained through multiple disciplines and construction methods that holds the reins and leads the process. 6.0 earthquake hits Indonesia resulting in multiple collapses and hundreds of deaths. 5.6 earthquake hits the channel islands in CA off the LA coast last April, no significant damage and no fatalities. Massive differences and impacts to society. The high level of regulations do work reasonably enough when you look at them from an overall society perspective…
The counter argument always seems to be ‘I know a guy who knows a lot and could out do an architect; Fantastic, I don’t doubt it. Now prove it to someone who doesn’t know this fella…. Oh yea, you probably need some sort of test for that as well as some sort of experience/training history and peer reviews by someone who has proven they know a thing or two…. Hence the accredited degree proving the educational experience, the experience history (internship under the guidance of someone already licensed), and a test to prove you know the basics in a variety of subjects…
It's not the case in every state that you can't use another state's license in that state. There are some (NY included) that have a streamlined project-specific alternative to reciprocity, where instead of reviewing your record and issuing their own state's license, they essentially take the other state's word for it that you're qualified and then they let you stamp that set with the other state's seal (you just have to staple the permission letter to your cover sheet). For example if you're in Connecticut and you rarely do NY projects but one falls into your lap, rather than go through NY's time-consuming and expensive reciprocity process and paying NCARB to transmit your record and paying NY for your license dues there, you just apply for permission to use your CT stamp on that specific project in NY. You should be careful about making statements about what is or isn't "generally" allowed or what you are "supposed to" do, as you don't seem to have all the facts about anyplace but Oregon.
I attended a recent talk by Thom Mayne in Tampa, and one of the students just bluntly asked this brilliant question:
"How can we become rich right after graduation?"
I was so pissed off for Thom. I can see he was too.
You may be that kind of guy.
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