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Equity can't be solved with a speech...

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DTElmore

The AIA made an honorable effort at encouraging equity in it's speeches today, but unfortunately the problem of equity (among many problems) will not be solved until we stop hiding behind architecture as a baffle for  larger deep rooted issues, and face some rather obvious elephants in the room. I had a few instances as a black student/professional when a professor or colleague has outright ignored me, or has told me that I will not be successful. It is a powerful thing to look identical to someone in resume but be treated different because of the way you look. It is hurtful and more discouraging than one can explain. Meanwhile, we've all seen instances of people benefiting from merely "looking the part" of an architect. Ultimately, it helps no one to keep my experiences quite. Are there any instances where you as a woman or person of color have also been discouraged from being an architect or overlooked? Please share.

 
Jun 22, 18 5:30 am

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All 31 Comments

geezertect

Being discouraged or ignored is part of this profession.  You need to develop a very thick skin, regardless of its color, if you're going to go into this overworked, underpaid, insecure and disrespected line of work.


Jun 22, 18 7:23 am
Non Sequitur
Our office has plenty of visible minorities, even a recent refuge. Almost 50/50 men-women split too. You just need to find an office not run by wankers.
Jun 22, 18 7:31 am
Sir Apple Chrissy

White male with observervations here and saw a bunch of those AIA people roaming the streets in my neighborhood yesterday...


agree on speech bit and in general talk is always wishful thinking or pretending to intend to change the situation.


Unless your professor outright said - "you won't make it because you are female and not white" being igored and told you won't make it is unfortunately extremely common in architecture school. 


Example 1: 1st week of 1st semester professor told all of us,most of us would never become architects.  With less than half graduating in architecture and even less sticking with it they were correct.  I also only know only 1 other guy between 2 graduating classes who has his own practice 2/300...also white guy


But school is a place where there should be no barriers and really nothing to prevent you from succeeding. Its in the real world where it gets less equitable - for example.


Example 2: everyone you meet once you start working tells you "you can only go on your own if you marry rich or have money." Yes you can get a corporate job and climb the ladder and yes in my city minorities and women fill up many of the positions.  Had a minortiy commisioner tell me private practice in his area was tough because there was this guy who undercut everyone (in so many words) and hence got out of private practice,so its also an issue of just shitty competition and of course if the guy undercutting everyone is privately wealthy or is a member of the land owning class, they can undercut and put others out of business.  Money is not a problem if you have money.


On Equity made opportunies -  If we ignore the equity provided in city agencies who at least in NYC have a diverse population then we are really talking about private practice and possibly academia if it reflects private practice which it really does not at least idealogically.  The equity you are then talking about is based on available contracts in the free market or open government applications.


For minority and women owned business in NYC you can apply for work as a percentage of contracts issued by the city etc need to meet a standard of hiring MWBEs. On one hand its great, an opportunity is provided but on the other hand its annoying amount of paperwork and a lengthy process and I even know  a dude who had to show face to prove - not white guy.  I know about these processes because my resume is often brought in to beef the team up.  On a private corporate job that was requesting minority owned apps, in theory i would of been the work horse - out in the field making friends in the business.  I mentioned this to an older architect and he said thats been going on forever.  So, the white guy ends up getting the work anyway because the white just happens to have the experience...


So the question is how do you gain experience if in you never get the opportunity?  Architecture is a profession so it is assumed at some point no one will have to show you how to get experience,you will just do it.


So lets accept all that.  Then its really you trying to get work from a free market where, won't bother looking it up, the equity in the market is mainly lopsided towards,you guessed it - white males.  Make a list of developers,a list of CEOs etc....other than diversified public agencies i would wager most heads of business from which "equity"flows are white guys....so white guys hire white guys because they look like me and me like them and have had for the most part similar life experiences except for class differences and then add in the few that have prejudices and you have limited severly the control architecture can have on equity. It is a service profession. No money no work.


So i don't see how filling the seats with not white male butts will change anything and maybe thats why the speech on it is disappointing?

Jun 22, 18 7:41 am
archinet

Yup been ignored all the time and belittled as a woman. The worst instances were being lashed out on verbally in front of others for no apparent reason either during a review as a student or at work after graduation. One day I finally learned to have the courage that when someone yells at me at work for no reason to yell back even louder until they stop. Sounds crazy but works, as women we are constantly being told to be polite and pleasant but pushing back with some people is the only way. Remember the jerks, avoid and ignore them at all costs. Leave the office if you have to and always call them out on their bs. Learn to push back.  

Jun 22, 18 7:50 am
Non Sequitur

where do you work where yelling is a thing?

Sir Apple Chrissy

Yeah that office sounds horrible. Also how do you know its because you are a woman? Assuming its not blatant - like "i am yelling at you because you're a woman.". Insensitive male is asking.

tintt

I never yell back. I don't think you should. Just shrink them down, put them in a box and ship them to the north pole.

Non Sequitur

Hey, the north pole is ours. Send your problems elsewhere and leave the great white north alone.

tintt

Too late. I've sent a bunch of bad boys up there in boxes over the years.

Volunteer

Uh, the north pole is in international waters in the Arctic Ocean. The ocean depth at the pole is 13,000 feet.

archinet

The boss never yelled as much at men then at women. He did yell at men but less so. He also would say misongynist things from time to time, and women never made it as far as men in terms of promotions. He would not yell at me only because I was a woman, he yelled to try to scare me to work harder, but this tactic was never done to men. I quit after that. 

Jun 22, 18 8:52 am
archi_dude

White Dude’s options that sucks at job - “I’ll have to just do better and try harder.”


Female/Minority’s options that sucks at job - “Inequality!!!! I’ll sue! I’ll tell AIA, Twitter storm you!” 


Obviously not every situation but falling back on the everything is sexist narrative is a lot easier than questioning if you just suck.

Jun 22, 18 9:12 am
tintt

For the record, I never hear white dudes say, "I'll just have to try harder." Thanks for the laugh.

archi_dude

Never? Okay.....

SneakyPete

Jesus, dude. Do you even empathy?

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tintt

That stuff didn't happen in school, but practice, yes, all the time. The president of a large contracting and development company used to call me when I was a 25 year old fresh intern to berate me and ask stuff like "Who do you think you are?" and "What makes you think you are qualified to do this job?" and "What did they even teach you in school?" in a nasty tone. I just did the work. Funny how he never actually had a problem with my work, it was always complete, correct, and on time, just with me for being female with a degree instead of a man with a construction background. That man resembled George Costanza, short, bald, you know, manly. lol. He was so jealous, but did he need to be? He had it better than most architects. He married the daughter of the founder of the company and so that's how he got his job. He desperately wanted to be an architect but was mad that his experience counted for pretty much nothing and that he would have to go back to school to study things that were silly in his small, undeveloped mind like history and art.

A friend of a friend of mine who was a tradesman of some sort once asked me what I did. I said I was an architect. He got up from his chair, came and hovered over me and spit at me, "No. No, you are not." 

In college, my own grandfather told me outright, "Women can't be architects. Better study something else."

I was taken off a job once because the contractor kept calling me the little girl to the client. My boss backed me up but eventually just assigned me to another job and let a man handle it. 

A landscape architect called me a little ******* ***** because I wouldn't change the height of the fence. I told my boss, who called his boss, who fired him. I see him on LinkedIn sometimes, he is a salesman now.

I've also had plenty of experiences that are the opposite. People telling me they are thankful I'm there, that I'm so talented and creative and they love working with me. Contractors, suppliers and subs who go out of their way to say nice things to me. Had a supplier call me and tell me he has never seen such well-prepared documents. Had a contractor who used to smile when he saw me coming instead of my boss. He would greet me at my car and walk me into the jobsite and once muttered something about how glad it was me doing CA and not that a-hole. So I focus on those moments. Had a group of workers build a ramp for me and another female so we wouldn't have to step over a foundation wall.

Jun 22, 18 9:36 am
Non Sequitur

I'm not really able to add much value here on account of my glorious appendage, however, we work with one project management firm who makes it their mission to toss fresh female staff directly in the line of fire on the construction site... with good results and support.

tintt

There were many, many times where I did not have any trouble. My first internship was with a contractor and I fit in really well there. Was on the jobsite a lot and they didn't give me any crap. Quite the opposite, they liked having females around. Just sharing so others know they are not crazy and that discrimination does happen.

tintt

(moved)

proto

"A friend of a friend of mine who was a tradesman of some sort once asked me what I did. I said I was an architect. He got up from his chair, came and hovered over me and spit at me, "No. No, you are not." " ...JFC, tintt, that's awful

Sir Apple Chrissy

fucked up bruh...was it like this

or this


tintt

On a related note, my husband was in school to be an elementary school teacher. The director of the program told him he needed to be more.... (pause) like a woman. Ummmmm. People are so dumb. Just bulldoze them over. 

Jun 22, 18 9:44 am
Featured Comment

People are so cavalier about dismissing other folks claims of discrimination, that is  until it happens to them.  Architects can be horrible people and treat people like dirt. The profession is progressing to correct this but progress is always too slow.  The discrimination in education and in work is not just limited to people of color or women but the LGBT folks out there get discriminated against too.

We need solutions and we need to put the horrible folks who refuse to evolve on this out of business.

Over and OUT

Peter N

Jun 22, 18 9:46 am
DTElmore

The disrespect due to race or gender is different and more damaging than the "run of the mill" professional disrespect certain other people are describing. Racism and sexism falsely presume you have negative qualities, vs professional disrespect is based on true deficiencies. The idea that you're not liked for reasons that are false and beyond your control causes pain in victims that requires more than a thick skin. Despite society telling women and minorities to be strong and suck it up, it's not that easy, and quite invalidating of our experiences frankly. The lack of women and minorities in the profession is a symptom of ideals that start at "Suck it up" and run all the way up to outright hatred. We need to address the causes, not that symptom. 

Jun 22, 18 10:19 am
Sir Apple Chrissy

The causes are outside of architecture as i describe above. Its all speech because architecture can NOT change the cause.

curtkram

part of the solution is that people in architecture, as with people in all professions, need to be able to speak freely about these situations without fearing ostracization or retaliation so when it happens it's identified and stopped. it's not an architectural problem that we can design ourselves out of, but it is a professional problem we can professional ourselves out of.

Sir Apple Chrissy

so yeah it's a human problem, and as I have already suggest, the OP is disappointed because WTF can the AIA do about this, really? let's have a conversation. here's the AIA doc protocol...Q: Do you think women should work? If you answer NO  to this question please read guideline #4...Q: if you see a kid in a hood, probably not white, do you cross the street? take action and call the cops? shoot them? say hello? if you answer 1-3 please stop practicing architecture....reallly what can the AIA do about this?

curtkram

honestly i don't have a very specific answer, but saying something like "it's ok to talk about this" is where i'm leaning. it's not a policy problem, it's an attitude or perspective problem. but, if policy is the only tool you have, it has to somehow be used to influence the attitude and perspective.

Sir Apple Chrissy

policy never solves anything, it just remind people they aren't doing it right. this is the problem with this nation. it makes the problem worse in my opinion. it makes racism and sexism even worse. more obvious. more categorical. more good and evil. more qualifiers. like let is slide man... the big bosses then say "so you're all racist sexist dicks, please be nice!" the good guys "yes sir, yes sir" they're already nice guys so not really the problem anyway...and the bad guys "we're dicks, which makes us a minority, you should respect us." and then they go meet in secret at some lodge..."well boy, when a bleep bleep says this and that, you shut them down, but you can't be obvious, you go about it PC like, say it's the weather, it's the laws, if it's that god damn NFL player who takes knee fly air force over them and wave the flag." you can't stop ingrained behavior with formal speeches, you just can't.

curtkram

when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. if it isn't a policy, then the only tool AIA has is a speech right? still on us to do it right.

tintt

Note the patterns here. It is they who are incompetent themselves that discriminate for race or gender reasons. So when it happens, chuckle to yourself that you now know how insecure they are. 

Jun 22, 18 10:38 am
Xenakis

I goes both ways - I'm a minority white guy at a mostly Asian(Chinese and Indian) architecture firm - Do you think I like it when my co-workers speak mandarin in front of me and laugh? 


Jun 22, 18 12:16 pm
thisisnotmyname

Ideally, your firm management shouldn't permit communication within the office that all employees can't understand. It's pretty inconsiderate.

SneakyPete

So should Xenakis be forced to learn Mandarin or should all the rest be forced to use English? Xenakis, I'm not taking a shot at you, I'm intrigued by this and would like this' thoughts. Yours, too.

thisisnotmyname

I once worked at a firm that is very prominent in AIA circles.  

In order to appear diverse, the firm makes sure to always have 1 or 2 black employees on staff at any given time.   

The secret is that these black employees always got the crappiest work assignments, were always the first to be laid off, and would get fired for things like being late to work, when others would just get a warning.


Jun 22, 18 12:25 pm
Xenakis

I've had to just accept it - What are you going to do? -

well, being the best at your performance negates discrimination - that's really the solution - idiots of all stripes are discriminated against

Jun 22, 18 2:58 pm
DTElmore

Discriminating people don't want to see minorities succeed. You need a better understanding of how discrimination works. Ask your minority friends of their experiences. I have a degree from an ivy league school and am one of the best architects in my office, that doesn't stop me from experiencing discrimination.

SneakyPete

To echo DTEImore, If someone is discriminating against you because of non-performance reasons, being the best doesn't alter the underlying reasons they dislike you.

Xenakis

thisisnotmyname

Ideally, your firm management shouldn't permit communication within the office that all employees can't understand. It's pretty inconsiderate.

I worked at one Indian firm in the South Bay, where we had a real mashup of people, Indians, Chinese, Philipinos, Persians and  3 of us "dumb vanillas" our CEO made a rule that only English be spoken

Jun 22, 18 3:37 pm
SneakyPete

Please ignore my post above, you answered it here. I was also unaware of the location of the firm. I was imagining it overseas, not in South Bay.

Sir Apple Chrissy

i will take a shot at the "lack of empathy" from mainly white male architects (in architecture you could lump Asian men in with the white guys) 


Its as archi_dude explains, since you resemble the oppressor you never get to note your lack of opportunity or ever being discrininated against.  So naturally you never assume a lost opportunity or some weird outcome of unjuunjust 

Jun 22, 18 7:00 pm
Sir Apple Chrissy

Is due to discrimination. So naturaly, by habit a white male would not understand a condition to have empathy in....

Featured Comment

I’m going to expand on the comment tintt made above about trends. I’m seeing a few as well.

A. This is tough profession and you should just suck it up. If you can’t go do something else. Read: I felt abused (not questioning the validity of this claim) when I was I was school/interning and I feel I have the right to pass that abuse along to others because “that’s the way things are done.”   Q: Given the concerns with mental health and welfare in the profession, how can you improve things if you passively want the right to abuse whomever you feel deserves it?

B. Archicture can’t solve this problem. Correct, architecture can’t solve this problem. But the OP was talking about people and not architecture. People can solve things. They can expect better and do better. Hiding behind the amorphous blob called architecture is a cop out. But wait- what about Social club, social housing... Those projects - built and paper- were responses to specific/social cultural needs. Some were humble, other grand, but they responded human needs. Also consider the agora and the pynx. Social spaces that were created in contraposto, but both responded to the needs of society. Consider what would happen if we expanded the canon beyond social housing to consider other architectures that were the product of social response.

C. I feel like I’m being marginalized too (again, not questioning the validity of this claim). There’s something interesting about these types of responses, the assumption that you would never find yourself in this position because of the identity you project. Consider that uncomfortable position and think about the people who are taught to live with that on a daily basis. 

D. Policy doesn’t fix things. Correct, policy does not fix things- when the plenum does not support it. Change the plenum and applicable policy can be constructed. 

But yes, an empty speech and toothless praise of speech that was never really acted upon are useless until then. In the meantime, thank you to those who testified.


And apologies for the long post.

Jun 23, 18 12:07 am
Featured Comment
Sir Apple Chrissy

nah marc, this was a short post, you ever see Balkins... a few quick counterpoints to your points, I think I'll argue it quite well with some efficiency.....

Counter Argument Perspective - America suffers from lots of this "Victimhood" mentality and this is mainly due to money, because this makes lawyers money, so let's not take this constant bitching and moaning too seriously, it has monetary value to a certain profession - Lawyers. The method in which America keeps the masses in place is to cater to their narcissism. Freedom of speech platforms that gather data for monetary reasons - Facebook, etc.. now to your points.  It's easier to appease the cranky children with candy then to beat them until the morale improves (it's also not allowed anymore, spanking, beating USMC into order, etc...)

A) We should define abuse better, but in short if the practices of the office are in conflict with labor laws then it is abuse. If the abuse is "imagined emotionally" then "suck it up."

B) Expanding the canon is beneficial to involve people that address their community with their community values. This though does not mean "architecture" itself makes programs that suggest "this architecture is more black" or "this is feminist architecture", but rather exactly what Mr. Ford is doing, getting people who never thought this mainly male white profession has room for others with different perspectives to be interested in pursuing architecture. This is very different than the delusion of "social housing" being solved by architects.

C) This response is usually from people who are tired of hearing the bitching and moaning. I can't take a white male seriously about lack of opportunity even if "women seem wicked when you are lonely" (Jim Morrison song) and if I can't get into a African-American club or university (unless they need a kicker for the football team). The former is male rejection that turns into weird psychosis and all the guy needs is a damn hug from a lady. The latter, it clearly says in the name of racially intended clubs which race can join, so not sure why a white guy would complain...so as I say at the beginning of point C, the "I am being marginalized" counter is really just someone telling the person voicing their complaints -"we heard you, now suck-it up." as my accountant told me "no one cares, just put your head down and get back to work." this applies to everyone.

D) How do we change the Plenum? If this is a democracy, then the majority rules, and if this is the case then the culture of the majority would dominate. BUT American culture is very much mixed sexually and racially because the media by normal standards is extremely liberal and makes up for lack of diversity in REAL society with MEDIA society. Philosophically, I see this as counterproductive to have a very small portion of the population be very loud and to clearly distinguish the difference - while someone makes money off the dispute (lawyers, social media). maybe the Plenum isn't so bad, maybe its the policies that make it appear bad?

Featured Comment
DTElmore

In response to (D), what world are you living in? It's a democracy for white men, the rights of everyone were reluctantly tacked onto the constitution in hind sight and fairly recently. One day the world will be what you described above, but not yet. Do some research dude. It's a conservative country, designed for the success of one type of person, with systemic road blocks for everyone else.

Featured Comment
Sir Apple Chrissy

[arguing the conservative counter point with as little as possible hyper rhetoric like below from meh2018] but here is some research -

We actually live in a country of milk and honey, enough so that had Apathy ran for presidency would have won. The culture battle is clear on the map as well.


Featured Comment
Sir Apple Chrissy

D) DTElmore we agree REAL society in the US is much different than MEDIA society, correct? This is the world we live in. REALITY is very conservative, MEDIA is not. For instance Hollywood is not conservative, I don't need to much proof for this. Check-out the top 10 songs in the US currently -https://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100 predominately NOT white males. Cable News, besides Fox news it's not conservative nor white male (straight) as well. see MTV "Real World" episodes as a MEDIA world in a nutshell. MEDIA world looks like this

so what I'm saying as the counterpoint to Marc's D is there are two worlds in the US.  there is REALITY which is the Plenum and there is MEDIA world which is Policy.  The Plenum can't be reached because the Policies aren't real.  The Plenum can't be changed because the message is from a fake source....

Featured Comment

The Marshall McLuhan spin only works so much. 

Plenums are not “the media.” They are groups that create a level of expectation. And before we get into the “that’s my point, the media sets our expectations,” bit- consider that a group of people are asking for more despite what you think media is saying. Also consider if the media is so pervasive, they are affecting our expectations for standards of care- which mean all the building codes that receive to much praise and chatter on this site are useless references.

Featured Comment
Sir Apple Chrissy

Marshal McLuhan - Douglas Coupland - me (mental condition),

but I'm doing the counter point here from a conservative perspective (I think). yes the Plenums (which also means a space for air to pass in architecture HVAC, you may have done that intentionally;) )...the Plenums have demands and in theory the media would be the conduit through which their message is delivered.

BUT the media (members) are a Plenum themselves who have the distinct opportunity to create their narrative and silence or minimize the others. If you watch liberal cable news the TV personalities always say the president is playing to his base via twitter going around what was traditional media control.

This obviously is the huge advantage of localized thought being sent global via social media and makes you wonder "were people always this racist and sexist or did the internet make them do it." the answer is, they always were, now you can just say it anonymously if you like and put the phone down and walk away....

The media from the anti-media perspective is a negative feedback and fake world to test your thoughts against, therefore the expectations of the media are suspect and it's quite possible paranoid conspiracy theories hold equal weight to seasoned Media and real journalism (reporting facts).....


now your last point building codes, they have the law behind them, which means they have the tax dollar behind them, which means they ultimately have a form of power to ensure the "ideology" of building codes affect reality directly. this is very different than what I'm referring to as Media. If I take the conservative viewpoint, Veterans fought wars and cops and council people ensure these ideologies that protect you are enforced. on a heaver social level as an analogy - its the strange Blue Lives or Black Lives comparison. Blue is an occupation, Black is an existence. you can't even categorically compare these two or make any argument (this is a logical viewpoint, not a conservative one, the argument would go differently).

Building Code protects Existence (read fire and safety) but must be enforced by those in power to be effective for all.....and that's where we get redlining/zoning/gentrification/systemic stuff like debates, correct?

The "suck it up" conservative view would be, bluntly, your culture has not adapted to our laws (culture), hence we must enforce the negative on your existence....this is getting heady...break the points back down on D I think..

curtkram

toxic masculinity is bad. it just shows you have bad manners and your parents don't know how to raise little boys to be men.

Sir Apple Chrissy

Well curt, was going to ask meh2018 how his child rearin' skills were,something mamas usually do better vs the chess cognitive arguement....dont get this meh2018 troll,i was debating their side, maybe i should have been more committed and then was debating breaking character so might as well now right?. I know the song because i saw Lamb of God live and because i had broke my leg playing Rugby (a masculine sport with a huge lesbian contigency) and could not therefore participate in the wall of death. And my crew were the bullies in elementary school. It interested me for philosophical reasons to bully with words but no real commitment to doing harm (maybe i am just to intellectual,ha). But for the most part most bullied,the kids that were committed had problems at home,so hug both the victims and the bullies....lastly i think its not so much institutional systemic discrimanation as much as its systemic manipulation by those who can...mama tried ;)

curtkram

without going too much into eisenman's bourgeoisie beliefs of architects, i think what we're looking at with meh's comments is something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N9nVLXMhPc

curtkram

"toxic" is a word that has meaning. also, the video from idiocracy isn't about poor people, it's about dumb people. you can google dysgenic fertility theory. average IQ has been falling globally since around 1975. the point is, of course, that you weren't raised to have good manners, and instead choose to be "toxic," because you grew up in an environment of dumb people.

Sir Apple Chrissy

Favorite building and why? I dare you,are you capable? Meh2018

curtkram

yes sir, i think that would count as "toxic." especially the street fight part.

curtkram's comment has been hidden
curtkram

careful sir apple. sexual harassment is toxic too, but i think it's ok to ask for a date as long as you're polite about it and don't act out if he says no.

I think it's important to consider that not all racial and gender discrimination results from explicitly racist and sexist intentions.  Dan Lyons has an interesting take on how a form of "inadvertent" discrimination takes place in the tech industry, at the 25 minute mark in this video:

However, should somebody who hires people like themselves who "fit the culture," and doesn't think about it too deeply, be described as racist or sexist, even if the intent wasn't there?  I don't have an answer to that. 

Jun 23, 18 1:02 pm
tintt

I think there's a difference between intentionally discriminating and not. We all discriminate. But doing it blatantly is what needs to stop.

Xenakis
SneakyPete

If the dominant language Ina firm is Hindi, Mandarin or Tagalog, even those those offices are in give US, you need to learn the dominant language. E.g., if I was to go to Argentina and work there, sure they no English, but I would have to learn Spanish, because that's their language
Jun 23, 18 5:12 pm
Xenakis

Sorry about my last post, I was riding in Bart(Bay Area subway/crazy train) and the tracks were bouncy as if freight trains ran on them - I don't know what they do with all the money we give them in fare increases 

Jun 23, 18 9:25 pm
tintt

This convo is wacky. 


I think it's worth noting that the hardest parts about being an architect aren't math, spatial, physics, engineering, or technical-based but social and political... things are done by unspoken rules... things rooted in customs are shared by certain groups. 

Jun 24, 18 7:48 pm
Sir Apple Chrissy

You mean human behavior?

tintt

A few certain types of human behavior.

Non Sequitur

Hey, people without penises just got permission to drive in Saudi-Arabia today. What a world we live in.

Sir Apple Chrissy

God, islam is such a great thing? We liberals should support the hijab...no. architecture sue me for libel. Peace in mexico.

Sir Apple Chrissy

Wait,and i qoute "until the hijab is rainbow coulors noting a roast beef curtain enthusiats wears this apparal, i am not convinced a lesbian can wear a hijab."

randomised

In today's paper:

Women allowed to drive in 'modern'Saudi-Arabia

"Now I finally don't have to go by bus when I want to watch the stoning of a homosexual"

Non Sequitur

Rando, are tough eating Saudi Arabia has evolved far enough to require seat belts in motor vehicles? This is fantastic news.

tintt

What was stopping women from driving before? Lack of spatial skills?

Non Sequitur

wow... my attempt at a response on the bus is terrible. "are tough" I have no idea how that got through. Tintt, you know the answer to that question. .. something to do with kitchen equipment I believe.

randomised

"What was stopping women from driving before? Lack of spatial skills?"

Lack of vision?



tintt

Oh. Feel silly now.

randomised

Equity also can't be solved by deleting comments...

Jun 25, 18 4:08 pm
LITS4FormZ

Late to the party as well but there were at least 140 comments this AM. Now only 95? How inappropriate were those 50 or so deleted comments?

Archinect

It’s called moderation. While we are 100% open to opposing view points from all perspectives, we do not tolerate hate speech or discrimination in our forum. All of the removed comments were either from users exhibiting that type of behavior or by other users responding to those comments and have requested that their comments be deleted as they are now out of context.

randomised

In my opinion not at all, I disagreed with some but don't think silencing the debate is productive...it helps to know who the assholes and bigots are. But mostly I'm sad and disappointed my 'Godwin's Law of Equity' was deleted.

LITS4FormZ

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Non Sequitur

but most of the assholes are one-shot ponies on disposable accounts.

RickB-Astoria

Archinect, while I didn't explicitly request my comments and replies to the topic to be deleted (nor were they hate speech [other than maybe great disdain for Donald Trump] or discrimination), I thank you for removing it especially when the comments would be lingering around without context after the person going by 'meh2018' was purged. Cleaning it up and the rest of the noise is fine. I rather such posts be removed when out of context than to leave it and looking rather odd. If a certain post is totally out of line with Archinect policy, by all means, delete it. If a post isn't, it might have been nice to be asked but I'm okay with it. 

randomised

@archinect, I get that and I kind of support that kind of moderation (although in moderation!), it is just mildly ironic considering the topic. I didn't want my comment deleted, but perhaps if it is a reply comment it will have to go if the initial comment is "moderated" to the afterlife. Keep up the good work though...

Sir Apple Chrissy

D. Policy doesn’t fix things. Correct, policy does not fix things- when
the plenum does not support it. Change the plenum and applicable policy  can be constructed.

How does one go about this in architecture?

Jun 25, 18 9:22 pm

It’s easy! People need to stop talking over others and listen. Ok, to be more direct, there are architecture related plenums in place. You made mention of laws earlier (not sure if that’s still visible), but laws need policy, which need expectations. So codes are a byproduct of a “we need to do better/safer” attitude built into the proffession. This is implicitly ties to a standard of care- “what architects should be responsible for and to what degree.” The standard of care is a v ambiguous thing but also potent in how it frames the role of architects in practice. It performs more as a social contract that is given teeth through the former. 

 I’m not suggesting we burden the daily components - a code for buildings and a code for conduct (that’s an employee decision). What I am suggesting is that we reconsider what the standard of care means. That the term be expanded to consider issues of well-being beyond safety and comfort to perhaps use the term inclusive (off the top of my head here). In addition, I would suggest that the standard of care be expanded to think not of just the client and the user, but also to include professionals (read:employees).

 Also condsider the effort of others to bring all these issues to light. The OP brings up one problem plaguing the profession, and the AIA has yet to address it with anything but inconsistent platitudes. But there are also other voices out there, the #metoo movement, and the great efforts of the Architecture Lobby to reveal the precarities of architectural practice from the individual in an office to the larger role of the profession in the built environment. Theirs is a such an important voice because they are actively tracking change form the outside of the professional organization which allows them to use language that would never be supported in conventions (eg. unions??!!).

 I realize that there will are readers (if they got this far) that would not be in favor of these suggestions such as they may be. To them I would ask what they fin it acceptable to perpetuate practices that have deleterious and marginalizing effects on others. “Same as it ever was” isn’t acceptable , because as the nature of creating the built environment changes, the profession needs to change as well. Or something.

Sir Apple Chrissy

Policy very much drives the interpretation of laws in practice and policy is directed by individuals who are driven by often unknown or at least not known the public causes - politcal, financial, criminal activity, lobbyist type persons, and prejudices. The only counter point i can make to the above is - a successful architecture business model must assume a certain amount of abuse to provide the deliverables and stay competitive. Academia is assisting in the further demise by training useless employees and far worse creating these imaginary places called "safe spaces". The market is rugged and aggressive and therefore the victim mentality will not succeed in an environment where casualties of abuse must be accepted to stay in business. Do not joing the marine corp if you cannot deliver in combat.....marc your outside the profession view is what highlights this mentality the best. Should architecture be as stressful as hedge fund management - only if we were paid for it,should it be like war - no we sit in front of computer screens modt the day....the counterpoint is any positive policy that does not accept the nature of architectures business is a platitude. Maybe architecture just can not be that inclusive place everyone wants it to be -the market and practice will not allow it.

True, a business must be made to be resilient, but not at to the extent that the staff suffers. Also keep in mind that your hedge fund model is interesting given the amount of "self medication" that occurs in an effort to disguise the abusive nature of the work- all with the assumption of getting out early (not sure that jives with architectural practice- or the team based model) followed by therapy. Added to that, none of this has anything to do with being inclusive, they're just excuses to abusive environments and club-like attitudes.

Sir Apple Chrissy

Counterpoint on what it has to do with inclusive- those that can be included must be capable of performing in such an environment. If they cannot take the heat get out of the kitchen. Admittedly this doe not addresd the club mentality which suggest that if you are in that club you could in theory handle the environment. (I am running out of counterpoints, haha)

Trying to sustain the argument that it’s the environment to blame doesn't work. As hum
ans we are more than aware enough to make our own natures, and to do better when they are inadequate.

Sir Apple Chrissy

haha...the ones playing victims are the ones admitting the environment is the way it is...

Sir Apple Chrissy

Flipped the script on the anti-victomhood perspective. Stop blaming the environemnt,at least thats how i read it. Which was funny.

The comment had nothing to do with that. To say "it's the environment, so deal with it" is lazy . If you want better do better by others and stop making corrosive environments.

Sir Apple Chrissy

something or someone always is the cause though. the point is to react equally?..that whole Newton - for every action an equal reaction....although I think it's more like some people have coefficients that benefit or make it hard for people to react equally.

Archinect, I would ask that Tintt’s observations be included as a feature comment given that I built upon hers.

Jun 26, 18 9:46 am
I can’t bring myself to read this entire thread because so many of the comments are just dumb knee-jerk-reaction type thoughtless word salad.

But of course as usual curtkram and Marc are doing the hard, thoughtful work of trying to enlighten others, and of course a bunch of white guys are saying “That’s just how it is, grow a thicker skin ya pussy”.

I spent many hours this last week at the official AIA Conference 2018 and also at the simultaneous counter-programmed Think In put on by The Architecture Lobby. Old white guys (I’m a 51yo white woman so I’m closer to you all than you may like): things are not going to stay the way they have always been. Things are changing FAST. Saying that the old abusive self-flagellating practice of our discipline is eternal is like believing that hand-drawn ink on Mylar will NEVER be overtaken by CAD.

And tintt thanks for always bringing your matter-of-fact realness to it. Old white guys: if you know any woman in architecture then you know someone who has experienced belittling treatment by men.
Jun 26, 18 8:11 pm
RickB-Astoria

As long as the labeling bullshit continues, there can NEVER be a rational debate between the irrational label slinging people.

proto

thanks for adding your thoughts, donna...it seems minor, but putting personal perspective in for the commenters & especially silent readers is worthwhile. i'm a middle aged white guy who drew on mylar in school but not ever at work. time marches on, and power positions are shifting to be less male & less white, but not necessarily quickly...more communication = more awareness

Non Sequitur

I've been a mostly silent reader in here. I'd like to contribute but I don't think I have anything worthy to contribute.

citizen

Over the years I've observed the editing and editorializing here by Archinect to be highly selective and targeted.  Entire nuclear threads go on and on untouched, but a single comment may disappear due to... what?  What's the offense?  Whose toes must be avoided to escape censorship?

Jun 27, 18 2:05 pm
curtkram

well, jla is still here so we get the token right wing nutter voice.

The only color that really matters is green.

Not Kermit green.

/end thread

Jun 27, 18 8:16 pm

Equity can't be solved with a speech...

But can be by organisational structure.

Jun 27, 18 9:16 pm
Sir Apple Chrissy

Any suggestions?

Yeah, firstly would be to use your real name and stand by what you say. Otherwise you appear robotic and less deserving of human interaction.

tintt

I think this should be my last post on archinect. I just want to say that all of you wouldn't be anywhere, most definitely not an asshole architect, if it weren't for a woman, perhaps of color, who taught you to read, wiped the snot from your nose, made you eat your veggies, and washed your dirty superman underoos. Good luck all.

Jun 27, 18 9:18 pm

Not to mention squeezed you out into existence.

Sir Apple Chrissy

Since i am dropping counterpoints. You wouldnt exist if it was for a man spreading his seed......and then abandoning mother and child and naming said abandoned son Sue, a boy named Sue... https://youtu.be/_Gbtm-93oqE

curtkram

you can't leave us tintt!

Sir Apple Chrissy

4716 psts. 4+7+1+6= 18 which is 8+1=9. Biblical numerology of number 9 is the finality or the judgement.. so yeah she's gone.

tintt can do whatever she wants. But her calm, reasonable voice and dry wit will be missed.

I'm hiding all of jla-x's posts. Because he offers nothing of value to the forum. He posts the same damn un-nuanced bullshit on every single topic. So many other regulars have so much better thoughts to share.

But tint it would suck if you went away.

Non Sequitur

tintt....no. I guess I could resort to spying on your beer consumption instead. Less fun tho

tintt leaves and we're stuck with jla-x. Perfect.

threadkilla

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/26/17506970/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-joe-crowley-primary-new-york

"Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez ran boldly to the left of New York Rep. Joe Crowley — and won"

Meanwhile on archinect: one more interesting, boldly sane voice goes silent as the macho dumpster drivel runs rampant

RickB-Astoria

Chill out. Lets drop the gender war for crying out loud. Just because a woman birthed men and woman, it is irrelevant as much as it is than without men's semen, neither men & women would exist today. The whole argument is irrelevant. This forum is about architecture. The aptitude for architecture is not about whether you have a cock or a vagina. It is about your ability to apply your knowledge and skills you learn to creating effective design solutions to your clients needs and desires in a cost effective manner. Add to that, skin color and ethnicity are irrelevant factors to having aptitude to architecture.

Sir Apple Chrissy

And so the men again remove another woman voice from the converstion with the standard male tactics of agressive negativity and complete lack of empathy....as a counterpoint - if women want equal treatment in the workplace shouldn't they be able to deal with male locker room treatment? (See Top Gun screenshots above)...if you been following Marc along this behavior is obviously a problem and as an arguement as thin as a thread the counter is - you need to behave this way to survive rough and rugged wilderness of architecture (can't even say that with a straight face,you ain't farming or hunting,you're doodling for survival)

Non Sequitur

Careful there Chris... you're entering the danger zone.

sterling archer quotes - Google Search

For this pattern to change the community needs to change as a whole instead of relying upon a handful of people to do the work. I imagine people are saying "that's exactly my point." But the point has never been about policing, it's been about the expectations for behavior the community has as a whole.

Sir Apple Chrissy

Damn you NS! Song in the head. The community here is a handful to be quite honest and each time a newbie posts they often do not come back,granted some are looking for safe space echo chambers...but maybe that is what the internet is for, a safe space to think freely and then be trolled...errrr

randomised

Sorry Donna but I think you're stretching your moderator powers here, just because you think someone's posts don't contribute to the thread. I found jla-x posts contributing more to this conversation than people simply calling out the old white guys yet again ;)

Non Sequitur

“Of course I’ve gone mad with power! Have you ever tried going mad without power? It’s boring and no one listens to you!" — Russ Cargill

curtkram

if you want to move a community, you need leadership. people follow leaders. the handful of people we need will be strong, charismatic leaders that people want to follow, and they use things like speeches to get people to do the right thing. i did not hear the speech the AIA made that the OP is referencing, but speeches like that are how leaders get their message across. i don't see what other way you're going to get a bunch of disparate people to move in the same direction.

Deleted. Not entering the black hole. Sorry, don't know what got into me.

tintt

I'm trying to quit archinect. I need AA.

tintt

Not AIA.

Non Sequitur

I need Batman

I need a drink.

curtkram

you're one of us tintt! the tribe wouldn't be the same without you :(

Sir Apple Chrissy

it's a club, a diverse fuckin' club....and I'm drinkin' the Thursday already at 60 hours still workin' drinkin'

Non Sequitur

I'm drinking a pineapple sour beer. It's not great... pretty shitty actually.

Sir Apple Chrissy

delerium tremens...

curtkram

four roses. best bourobn ever. sort of.donna, sorry to say this, but jla is part of the tribe too despite him being, you know, him.

tintt

I have needs. :)

tintt

My husband was standing over my shoulder as I typed that. I got in trouble for 1 sec.

Sir Apple Chrissy

tribe, just like the real world (MTV)

(my wife always go  "oh, you're on that archinect..." she don't care ;)

curtkram

well, if you need an archinector to meet your needs.. i'm just sayin.....

Sir Apple Chrissy

donna should probably edit that.

tintt

Edit what?

Sir Apple Chrissy

get your mind in the gutter damnit. curtkram's comment.

tintt

I have needs for non-censorship. And politeness/decency.

tintt

If you can do that, I'm all yours.

curtkram

Chris I'm pretty sure #metoo will still let me flirt with pretty girls a little bit

Sir Apple Chrissy

About 25% of that was a puritan movement. Be careful..and her husband peering over her ;)

curtkram

Chris, I'm confident she'll be able to resist my socially awkward charms

curtkram, randomised, you guys are right: I was wrong to hide jla-x's comments. The ones I hid, that is. I know I accidentally said up there that "I'm hiding all of jla-x's posts" but I only hid 3. Anything else he's said that's been hid was by other moderators. Archinect's moderation is done by an unconnected crowd, there is no single control.

And even though I shouldn't have hidden them, I'm not going to unhide them because they contribute nothing. This is to everyone here: if you're a white person, and being called a white person gets your panties in a bunch, you need to do some pretty deep self-reflection about why you feel offended. This is the zeitgeist we are in: older white people like me need to shut up a little bit.

tintt

(my hubby... he is always asking what Chrissy and Donna are up to... He likes archinectors. I think he wishes he had a tribe.)

randomised

"This is the zeitgeist we are in: older white people like me need to shut up a little bit."

More people should be heard and take part in the conversation, not less by telling only some people (based on their racial features, gender or age or whatever) to shut up, even for a little bit.

tintt

Speech is the only thing that ever did and will change anything. Keep speaking, all of you.



Jun 29, 18 12:56 am
Sir Apple Chrissy

No violence changes things...along the lines of Thomas Hobbes and maybe some angry Foucult?....and in architecture Form follows Finances (goes for all aspects).

Sir Apple Chrissy

I throw in the philosophical references to indicate i am being civil about the disagreement,like let's debate it and not yell over each other (on the internet)...

Non Sequitur

What about tarifs? Do those solve the problem? Because that’s all I seem to see everywhere.

Sir Apple Chrissy

Well lumber prices are jacked up right now in the USA thanks to tariffs. Not sure what its solving other than higher bids at the moment.

tintt

Tariffs ARE speech. Authority and author have to same root.

tintt

And chess is something only guys are interested in being good at. I'll beat you anyways.

Jun 29, 18 1:23 am
Non Sequitur

I don’t like chess. I mean, I know how to play and understand strategy, but I find it boring. Whenever I do play with people who take it seriously, I make it my mission to play as random as possible to mess with their heads. Risk on the other, I’ll take on any challenger!

tintt

I played a ranked player once and that's how I threw him off, being random. I didn't win but scared him.

Non Sequitur

Exactly. I don't play to win, I play to make things burn.

I'm a mediocre player, but I really enjoy the game. If anyone's up for a casual game sometime , I'm nickowski on the lichess app.

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