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Shitty Men in Architecture spreadsheet

665

I sincerely doubt that I, an old woman in this field, would see any surprises on this rumored spreadsheet, but I still kinda want to see it.

https://www.fastcodesign.com/9...


 
Mar 15, 18 12:56 pm

3 Featured Comments

All 107 Comments

And whatever you think about anonymous rumors and false accusations,  this, from the article, is 100% true:

Another thing is that there’s such a problem with architectural labor, with performative and enforced scarcity. When I graduated from architecture school more than a decade ago, it was understood that we were all going to suffer for the next 15 to 20 years, we’d never sleep, we’d be underpaid, we’d work until midnight. We’re trained from the very first studio class to believe that we are going to suffer in service of a higher calling. Our professors modeled this for us, and architecture firms reinforced it.

There’s this idea that architecture is a magical, important contribution to the world that is undervalued. We’re trained to view suffering as deeply related to the work. So something like harassment is easy to dismiss as part of the sacrifice. And even when it’s absolutely wrenching and not easy to dismiss, the culture of genius in architecture remains. Many firms are structured around a “Great Man” with a singular vision, which lowly employees are tasked with carrying out. It’s very top-down. 

I do believe this abusive tradition in our discipline is changing, slowly, both among bold new change agents like The Architecture Lobby and old-guard groups like AIA.

Mar 15, 18 12:59 pm
geezertect

^ How so?

geezer, there is a lot happening and I'm pressed for time but here is one thing: The AIA voted last year to require architects seeking awards, the Gold Medal and building design awards, I believe, the certify that they have not employed people for no pay in their firm.

SneakyPete

Ever? That'll thin the herd.

tintt

Let's just get rid of award culture.

Award culture has its issues, certainly. Pritzker is again under fire for awarding the most recent prize to someone who had previously served on their jury. But then again: architecture is a TINY community. We all kinda know each other and at certain higher levels they all really DO know each other. There're both good and bad aspects of how small a community we are! One thing I like about the AIA Firm Award is that it awards a good culture within a firm, not just focusing on the *hero designer*.

SneakyPete

That's the award I've always been most interested in. It takes a massive amount of effort from everyone on a team to make a great building. Doing it on the regular requires not only a good leader but also great individuals at every level working together. It's a rare thing.

geezertect

I'm with Tinbeary. The awards culture is just another manifestation of the "heroic" star system culture. We're not celebrities, we're supposed to be professionals. There's something sad about people soliciting their fellow professionals for a reward. Leave that shit for the talent-less folks in Hollywood. You don't see doctors doing that.

SneakyPete

https://www.ama-assn.org/excellence-medicine-awards. I think that the relatively unknown nature of these awards is more a function of the lack of appeal to the masses compared to more artistic and experiential professions. To say they don't have them is not true, though.

geezertect

I stand corrected.

SneakyPete

I would also like to see it. I want to make sure I'm not enabling or collaborating with any shitty men. I owe it to all of the talented women I work with.

Mar 15, 18 3:11 pm
tduds

Ditto.

placebeyondthesplines_

agreed

Dangermouse

the fact that the list remains a secret engenders obfuscation, confusion, and gaslighting when the opposite is needed. no one in the profession benefits from a list held by the few. obviously, the media benefits; how else are they to tranche their choice exposés over a period of time? meanwhile abusers continue to abuse, and victims receive no justice.

SneakyPete

That's an interesting observation. I don't think that was the goal, but it's worth considering.

tintt

edit: wrong location. deleted.

archanonymous

I have some names i'd like to submit for consideration! 

Have worked with plenty of creeps in my time, and in many cases, even those that don't overtly harass women say things when talking only with men that should never be shared, let alone thought, in a professional context.

Mar 15, 18 3:55 pm
tintt

This scares me too, the stuff that is done covertly. I can only imagine what men and say and do in the absence of women. My uncle told me that if I knew what men thought about that I'd never talk to one ever again.

TED

Women will need to sit at the table, 50:50, if acceptance of Shitty Men is to change. (TED)

Groups like AIA and RIBA are part of the problem and not change agents. By April in the UK. - larger firms are required to publish gender pay gap.

"All companies in Great Britain (but not Northern Ireland) with more than 250 employees are reporting their gender pay gap to the Government Equalities Office (GEO). All public bodies are due to report by 30 March 2018 and all companies are due to report by 4 April 2018. Companies will also publish details of the proportion of men and women in the company who receive bonuses and the breakdown of men and women in different pay quartiles." (Guardian)


When you look at practices such as Foster

"According to figures posted under the government’s new mandatory reporting rules, the company pays women 10.5 per cent less per hour than men based on the median of its staff salaries – the standard way of comparing payroll between firms.

The mean figure reveals an even wider pay gap of 23.8 per cent. Meanwhile bonuses for women are a third less (33.3 per cent) than those for men." (Architects' Journal)

More important, no senior partners at Fosters' are women.  When you look through web sites, most often women partners are either HR or Financial.  

Architects continually bitch about quality of life - put some women in charge and you will see a difference.

Mar 15, 18 4:07 pm
archi_dude

So do you think the fact that society places a man’s worth on how much he makes as not a factor in pay gaps? That more men are willing to say FU and quit to achieve a bigger salary? And what then do we replace our current negotiated system with to counteract this? A pay scale based purely on tenure and title with no relationship to performance?

archi_dude

I apologize I don’t mean that as confrontational, I really am curious, it scared me that in the equity surveys I’ve taken they seem to think transparent pay is the answer, which then you’ve just turned private enterprise into the government in terms of compensation.

TED

@a_d: Transparency exposes systematic inequality. Many job apps in the UK are done without name, age, gender preference etc., so to remove unconscious bias including nepotism and good old boy systems that give preference to men. Employers only see your statement, cv, portfolio. In Norway and Sweden all individual salaries are on a open database so you can see how much anyone in your office makes. Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark are 1-4 best quality of life countries - much to learn here.

archi_dude

So you would be fine busting your ass and making as much as the person whose only good at looking busy and really just
spends all day web browsing?

tduds

No one is suggesting that.

archi_dude

How not? Equal pay for equal position? Everyone thinks they are a top performer, if there’s a discrepancy surely it must be sexism.

tduds

Next thing you're gonna tell me women make false reports about sexual harassment to stick it to guys they don't like. 

This is a tired argument that's trotted out by naysayers every time, and there's little if any evidence to show it ever happens.

archi_dude

You haven’t offered any evidence that transparent pay doesn’t eliminate individual ability to negotiate a higher salary. Shouldn’t the emphasis be on empowering woman to feel confident enough to demand equal pay instead of bringing every one down to a transparent non-negotiable equal level? And no nowhere in my argument am I saying that sexual harassment claims are false, you only added that becuase currently argument has no merit and you trying to demonize me silence me becuase I disagree. No.

SneakyPete

It's not an either/or. The levels of disinformation that are disemminated by employers regarding whether people can discuss salary are an example of how regarding it in such black and white terms is dangerous. If you're in the dark stabbing blindly you have no leverage, no matter how empowered and confident you might be. And having a system like the government where your salary is fully transparent doesn't encourage much in the way of progress, either. There's probably a good middle ground, but by all means keep fighting over the extremes.

archi_dude

Touché Mr Pete

tduds

"And no nowhere in my argument am I saying that sexual harassment claims are false" ...yes it's called an analogy.

tduds

+ what Pete said.

randomised

"transparent non-negotiable equal level"
Transparent doesn't mean equal or non-negotiable.

archi_dude

Just google the ramifications of implementing it. I personally can negotiate a high salary for myself, if people can’t, that sucks learn how to play the game. Companies that implement transparent pay are generally stuck at attaching pay to years experience and title. Performance is too hard to prove outside of a sales or business development role so you might get a quick bump up if you are downtrodden but then everyone is stuck. “We generally stick at this rate for our job captains and offer a 3% bump per year of additional exerpience, wait for a promotion for a new negotiation.”

RobG

@tduds,

b3tadine[sutures]

Where's your proof Balskid?

b3tadine[sutures]

Blah, blah, blah....no proof.

b3tadine[sutures]

"It was a woman who took the forbidden apple from the Tree against the command of God." - the actual reason he hates women.

noragoesbiking

@archi_dude,

noragoesbiking

Hit enter too soon... A series of studies out of Harvard (Bowles et. al.) over from over a decade ago show that men are more likely to be rewarded and women are more likely to be penalized for attempting to negotiate for a higher salary. In such a situation, men are treated as go-getters, and women are treated as being too aggressive. It is not simply a situation of 'that sucks, learn how to play the game.' The study goes to prove what most women learn through experience: "it is not always good advice for women to act more like men in order to claim the same resources and privilege." In general, men and women are routinely treated differently.

randomised

Romantically it works the exact opposite, doesn't it?

noragoesbiking

What even are you trying to say? Are you implying that because we have a cultural norm for men to pick up the check on dates that women should not push for equal pay? Why don't you lay out your thoughts explicitly and in detail so I can take it down point by point..

SneakyPete

My wife has repeatedly stated that she would gladly change those norms just to get rid of that lame talking point.

jla-x

archi-dude I agree, studies have shown that women are more agreeable than men. Some psychologists argue that wage imbalance is probably partly because women are less likely to fight for higher wages. He says agreeability is a genetic trait that is beneficial for ones ability to care for an infant...more agreeable...better ability to tend to infants needs...there are evolutionary differences between the sexes that have a lot to do with this all. Automatically assuming that it’s all about sexism is really counterproductive and silly. It may be, it may not, it may be a combination of things.

jla-x

Men and women who ignore these natural differences/tendencies, and buy into this idea that everything is a social construct, are foolish. It’s a little of both. I’m not saying this to suggest that pay gaps are natural/inevitable, as I’m sure some will try to twist things, but rather that maybe women need to be “empowered” like archi-dude suggests, and be conscious to not be as agreeable. If you don’t understand these things fully they can’t be changed.

null pointer

I had a long story, but I decided it was worth keeping to myself with it.


I'm just going to say this:

Architects are fucking terrible people. While I'm all about believing women, but we should acknowledge that Architecture is too close to a zero-sum game for this list to work without providing really specific details about what it means to be a "shitty man".

Mar 15, 18 4:23 pm
SneakyPete

Perhaps:


I'm all about believing women, and we should acknowledge that Architecture is too close to a zero-sum game for this list to work without providing really specific details about what it means to be a "shitty man".

null pointer

Yup.

I've seen people go to HR because "John was being mean to me; he gives me so many red lines".... Except John does that to everyone, it's your second week and you're just fucking up a lot, stop whining.

archi_dude

The same thing just happened at my firm but the interns claimed “ageism” was why they didn’t have expanded roles 6 months post graduation.

SneakyPete

I'm fairly confident that those sorts of issues won't feature prominently on this list.

joseffischer

Hah, I've been "John". The intern apologized later. Since then, I've learned to hold my tongue. There are better ways to ask "Have you ever seen a wall framed before?" ie, not even asking it, and instead, schedule a site visit with a friendly contractor and invite all the interns to go. Then, when you get there, based on the drawings without enough dimensions, have the interns explain to the contractor where the walls should go.

joseffischer

The time when your to-do list is a mile long, including many things the intern was supposed to do, said they completed, and never even touched, and your deadline is EOB (end of business day) and you've given the intern redlines of the table of contents among other minor typos, etc, and they comment "why should I have to do these?" This is not the time to remind them that there is a hierarchy in the office for a reason, that CEO so-and-so put the intern on your team, that you have to get said list of their work done because they didn't do it, and that of the three people working on the job, the intern is best suited to fix the table of contents. That gets you an HR meeting too : /

joseffischer

Admittedly, that HR meeting was more for tone and less verbiage. No yelling or cursing or even mean words were used, but my frustration was clearly obvious.

gwharton

This thread is worthless without a link to the spreadsheet. Dish!

Mar 15, 18 4:55 pm

gwharton: This thread is worthless without a link to the spreadsheet. 

I hear you, but the TOPIC is worth discussing whether one sees unverified gossip or not. There's no link here, but we all know that there is an abusive, horrid culture in architecture that pretends that the only way to succeed is to take part in the abuse first as a receiver and later as one who doles it out.

That culture has to stop. As null pointer says above, it has too-long been a zero sum game when there is absolutely no need for it to be one.

If we can stop the false hero worship at the altar of the visionary single "genius" architect (almost always male) and start celebrating the *fact* that architecture is a collaborative process we'll provide a better culture for ourselves and for those who hire us and use our projects.

I know this sounds like a lot of buzzwords, so what it comes down to is this: good architecture doesn't happen without a whole team of people knowledgeable in different areas: design, specifications, structure, materials, communication, codes, project management...valuing all of the input will help destroy this hero-fetishism that leads to abuse.

Mar 15, 18 5:55 pm
gwharton

I agree that our profession has all kinds of toxic work environment issues. No argument from me on that at all.

gwharton

I still think that if we're going to talk about gossip, we should at least be able to look at the spreadsheet. The prurient interest demands it! ;-)

geezertect

It's a very tiny profession. Most 18 year old would-be architects meet their first architect in school. That's where the Stockholm Syndrome has its roots. Blame the schools.

Don't want to be a broken record, but supply and demands explains 90% of the problems in this profession

b3tadine[sutures]

"Don't want to be a broken record, but supply and demands explains 90% of the problems in this profession" - what does this refer to?

tintt

I wondered what that meant too. Perhaps it means we should cull the herd by taking the license from those who engage in criminal behavior or who harass colleagues. Works for me.

A605

Do you think it is an opportunity to be abused first? Man often master the game after that; however, not many women can do the same. It is one reason of the gap.

SneakyPete

To continue (archinect your in line mobile reply system sucks):




Toxic workplaces in architecure exist both in conjunction with and independently of sexual harassment and gender entitlement. That's something I wish would go away, because it does nothing positive for us. That being said, the sexually predatory shit goes to the front of the line because it's light years worse. Full stop. 

Mar 15, 18 7:00 pm
b3tadine[sutures]

I've seen the list, the comments, most of them, are pretty fucking shocking.

Mar 15, 18 11:46 pm
b3tadine[sutures]

No.

archanonymous

I've seen the list too. It's 20-30% terrible, criminal behavior, and 70-80% bitching about the profession, rigorous work standards, and other things that are expected in practice and in no way unique to or the responsibility of men, beyond the simple fact that our society is traditionally patriarchal.

b3tadine[sutures]

The list says Shitty Men in Architecture, not serial sexual abusers. If you are a man, and can't figure out how to interact with other women, in a professional manner. You're a shit.

archanonymous

Let's try this: If you are a PERSON, and can't figure out how to interact with other PEOPLE, in a professional manner. You're a shit.

b3tadine[sutures]

Oh, you mean a gender-blind society, okay I get it; Fantasyland.

b3tadine[sutures]

Gender blind, color blind, leaves us a blind.

b3tadine[sutures]

You know what? For all your efforts at trying to appear as terribly bright, you reveal yourself as the most obtuse and absurd little pissant. We're all talking about a very specific thing, in which it hasn't become painfully obvious, has men at the centers of the power dynamic. If there are women there, they will be on the list as well, but the numbers, ridiculously infinitesimal.

b3tadine[sutures]

"Men don't report sexual harassment against them by women because it is not done... men aren't suppose to do that. They be laughed at and ridiculed. "

If this happens, it's clear you'd be the one laughing, and ridiculing. You are a piece of work. I'm convinced you're a shut-in.

b3tadine[sutures]

Obligations to the Profession
Members should uphold the integrity and
dignity of the profession.

E.S. 4.1 Honesty and Fairness:
Members should pursue their
professional activities with
honesty and fairness.

Rule Members having substantial
4.101 information which leads to a
reasonable belief that another
Member has committed a
violation of this Code which raises
a serious question as to that
Member’s honesty,
trustworthiness, or fitness as a
Member, shall file a complaint
with the National Ethics Council.

This open secret bullshit, needs to be corrected. If you knew, you need to go, and by "knew"; if you knew and still sent women into hell, you need to go.

Mar 15, 18 11:51 pm
randomised

The list is sexist, it should be a Shitty People list...fighting sexism with sexism, sorry but I pass. Even simply consider the female supervisors that were knowingly sending over new female recruits to Dick Meier's home...

Mar 16, 18 3:19 am

Women talking about men harassing them isn't sexism. The guideline: is it punching up or down? Women saying men harass them is punching UP, because men have more power.

b3tadine[sutures]

additionally, the list isn't about women attacking men, it's also worth noting that there are predatory gay architects. another point, this list is about victims of abuse, and the perpetrators of abuse. your characterization of sexism smacks of misogyny.

randomised

All I'm saying is, it is about harassment and abuse of power first and foremost and not necessarily about Shitty Men, this kind of generalisation is sexist and does more harm than good, especially in this debate. It should therefore be about Shitty People im(h)o...It should be directed at the people in power, the harassers, not necessarily men (in power or not) and women as the passive victim. As if women can't harass people, I find that a very patronising approach to be honest, I've worked for and with plenty of (strong) women and women are at least as capable as men in being a Shitty Person.

@b3ta: "your characterization of sexism smacks of misogyny."

Could you elaborate?

b3tadine[sutures]

What I'm saying is that how about we focus on the status quo first. And, if you have instances of women threatening men, or predatory behavior of women architects, in positions of power, then name the names.

b3tadine[sutures]

Calling victims of sexual harassment sexist, in my opinion is misogynistic. The victims are women, the perps are men.

randomised

I think it is simply not fair to women to only portray them as potential victims, they've come a long way you know...it's a very submissive and passive position they are put in like this, which I think is sexist. If that's misogyny to you, well sorry I don't see it that way.

b3tadine[sutures]

I dare say, women who are abused, or assaulted, are strong. Coming out and naming the abuse, is power, not submissive.

randomised

Sorry, but discussing this about women and not with women is screwing with my mind.

b3tadine[sutures]

This is a men problem, not a women problem. Perhaps we men should get into a room, and work it out?

curtkram

sounds to me like the suggestion that we're portraying women as victims implies women choose to be victims. the mindset that women are being portrayed as victims might be part of the problem, and it might be why beta is suggesting this is a man problem instead of a woman problem.

curtkram

to say it another way, men are being portrayed as perpetrators, because some men choose to be perpetrators.

jla-x

Arm women. Let them shoot a couple of these fuckers...problem solved. Yay for the constitution. That’s what they did in India.

b3tadine[sutures]

Yep. Problem solved in India.

b3tadine[sutures]

Yer dumb.

Not all men are shit people, but most of the shit people are men.

randomised

"Not all men are shit people, but most of the shit people are men."
It's a power thing...not all people in power are shit people, but most shit people are the ones in power. And yes, most of the people are men...

BananaMan123

This is spreading like wildfire, here you all go!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/140sRIqK3D4IIcH33nrn3V7VENncfCQ1gFlu-1fIYltM/edit#gid=0

Mar 16, 18 10:20 am
SneakyPete

Hm, might be legit, might be a scam, clicker beware, they request your email.

Non Sequitur

So, someone came by and posted a link to a shared google docs spreadsheet with the start of a list or big-name arch. Nothing major on there besides general "shitty work environment" and "I've heard rumors of"... etc.    

That link is now gone.


Mar 16, 18 11:17 am
b3tadine[sutures]

Multiple coverups of instances of sexual harassment of female employees by clients and senior male employees of the firm, Blatant discrimination again female leadership in design, female employees encouraged to become project managers rather than design leads, Derogatory comments made by male HR manager about female employees’ potential to become pregnant ...

b3tadine[sutures]

does not sufficiently credit women's contributions to projects, fetishistic targeting of young, attractive women to mentor

b3tadine[sutures]

Asked female assistant to organize studio end of the year party in strip club. Created a hostile learning envionment for women and men; known to have made sexual advances with students in front of other students in parties.

b3tadine[sutures]

kissing/grabbing/hugging women in the office against their will, even after he was asked to stop in the middle of the office by a woman employee

b3tadine[sutures]

Sought out and invited several female students to dine out after a lecture he gave under the guise of 'equality and representation'. Proceeded to describe his practice of overworking his employees (both male and female) until they were in a state of exhaustion which resulted in better architecture during dinner. Hit on multiple students at the dinner and continued to pester one female student to come back to his hotel room with him. She declined.

randomised

That's quite a confession...

b3tadine[sutures]

delivered visiting lecture at Wash U in St. Louis and attended off campus happy hour post event where he innapropriately grabbed female student's ass and suggested continuing the party, his accompanying faculty/travelling partner admitted his behavior is constantly innapropriate toward female students 'thats just the way he is' (different writer) this was my experience when he visited Cornell as well, only that he was after a young female faculty member. (Different writer) dragged his pointer finger along a female student’s body at WashU, from between her breasts to her crotch. Was speaking to her about sex when he did this and told her he could “show her.”

Non Sequitur

To my defense, the list was rather slim when I first looked at it. There were a few dozen active people making changes.

b3tadine[sutures]

The doc is getting better at assigning categories of assholishness.

Non Sequitur

^Yes, I just reopened it.

b3tadine[sutures]

Adam, has sexually assaulted, from groping to rape, 3 known colleagues, 2 of the women received physical violence and verbal abuse

b3tadine[sutures]

I, or anyone else that is human, don't care what you want. You're a misogynist troll. People don't hate you because you are a man, they hate you because you are contemptible.

b3tadine[sutures]

I love men, and women, and gender fluid people equally. I hate you, and hope a truck hits you.

b3tadine[sutures]

delivered visiting lecture at Wash U in St. Louis and attended off campus happy hour post event where he innapropriately grabbed female student's ass and suggested continuing the party, his accompanying faculty/travelling partner admitted his behavior is constantly innapropriate toward female students 'thats just the way he is' (different writer) this was my experience when he visited Cornell as well, only that he was after a young female faculty member. (Different writer) dragged his pointer finger along a female student’s body at WashU, from between her breasts to her crotch. Was speaking to her about sex when he did this and told her he could “show her.” / (different writer) I was invited to give a lecture in a workshop with him, after which he aggressively flirted with me and told me I was beautiful and that he desired me. After explaining that I was not interested in a romantic or physcial relationship, he insisted on accompanying me back to the hotel where we were staying and continued to ask me why I wasn't interested in him. His assistant had supposedly booked my accomodations and I was afraid that he would suggest I share a room with him. He continued to flatter me and keep his body very close to mine while I tried to deflect the attention. At first chance, I firmly said goodnight, ran away to my room, and locked the door.

tintt

I glanced at it. Didn't see any accounts of anybody walking around naked or anything. But rubbing body parts against co-workers sounded kinda bad. 

Mar 16, 18 11:53 am
SneakyPete

IS kinda bad. Scratch that, IS BAD. Don't rub other people at work, people. Unless you're a massage therapist or something.

tintt

I've been dry raped. I know the feeling. It was on a bus. I don't work at starchitect's offices, probably for that reason.

SneakyPete

Gross gross gross. There's no excuse for that shit. I'm sorry you experienced that.

joseffischer

... Criminally bad would be the adverb I would use

ynxi2017

anyone have link yet?

Mar 16, 18 11:58 am
BananaMan123

It has been made private now. Better had hoped they were anonymous or I smell some defamation suits coming real quick as this is all "gossip".


I have posted the Google Doc above and it is REAL. They probably have gotten so much traffic or noise now they request access. You know, don't make something and send it out to people expecting it not to surface. Silly people....

Mar 16, 18 11:59 am
randomised

They made the doc with the sole purpose of it to surface, don't be naive...

b3tadine[sutures]

Why are you impuning the motives of these victims?

randomised

I'm not, but the fact it is shared in GOOGLE docs means it was meant to surface and easily shared with many people, otherwise why make this list at all this way and not write it in your private journal...?

Reminds me of the WaPo fake news list. Anonymous, unverified, malicious, slanderous. Judgement and execution by rumor and hearsay.

b3tadine[sutures]

I believe the accounts.

Non Sequitur

I saved a copy of the doc as it was posted a few hours ago.

Yes it is true that there are ethical problems with false rumors being spread on the internet, whether by google doc or by Twitter.

But please, before immediately coming to an angry opinion about someone's reputation being damaged by a false rumor, weigh that outrage against the fact, and it IS a fact, that of all of the women you know the majority of them have experienced inappropriate sexualization by men. Maintain a healthy balance of outrage for both, please.

Mar 16, 18 2:06 pm
Non Sequitur

Donna, you're correct but based on the spreadsheet that's building.... examples like Steven Holl "heard chatter that he's a harasser" are pretty weak. Healthy skepticism is good, sloganistic yelling is not. 

 side note, I was at the pub for a while. I assume i'm writing something that made sense.

curtkram

can you email me a link NS? my google skills are apparently not up to the job.

curtkram

never mind. someone put it on another thread

Non Sequitur

cool. bookmark it.

Non Sequitur

I have nothing to contribute to that SAM document but it is fascinating watching the information get added and morphed in real time.  Looks like somepeople are removing information thou... so that's unfortunate.

Mar 16, 18 4:40 pm
b3tadine[sutures]

I don't know who here did it, but unless you know something, take it down. He's a dick, but FFS. Stop it.

Mar 16, 18 4:53 pm

Jesus, seriously. Don't make a joke out of this, Archinecters. Please. Save your toy-batting for people coming here to OUR space, Archinect, and asking for free advice about the style of their house.

Non Sequitur

Did I miss something?

b3tadine[sutures]

I'd rather not stir the shit. It's done.

b3tadine[sutures]

I'm close to changing my mind.

placebeyondthesplines_

was this what I think it was?

architecturemetoo

This was 1000% my error. I'm not familiar with Archinect, I knew there was someone with a "b" name missing, and someone offered a name on a discussion forum. I didn't think someone would make jokes about adding someone, so I added the name. It was a terrible error, and I'm glad that it was quickly fixed.

b3tadine[sutures]

It's all good, in fact if you read its posts here, you might understand why he maybe should be added, he hates women. And there's some possibility that, given how he talks about women, why he may have issues with women.

architecturemetoo

oh, interesting! if i had direct experience, it'd be on there. i'll keep an eye on the list. also, @b3tadine you are a gift to this entire discussion.

architecturemetoo

ok i figured out who balkins is and read some posts and ... i get it now. still shouldn't have been on there, but ... i get it.

Non Sequitur

I removed Balkins name from the google doc and added the note. Figured it would draw too much attention. Someone else might have added the it since then thou.

Oh architecturemetoo no worries! I saw RBA's name on there and immediately had visions of the Archinect commentariat polluting the entire spreadsheet with entries like "Professor Thrusty McThrusterson FAIA told me my model-building skills weren't good enough for the Ivies then to prove it knocked my model off the table with his dick. It broke." There's a time and place for dick jokes and that spreadsheet is NOT it (PS I definitely include myself as one of the commentariat but I usually know when to be jokey and when not).

RobG

..."the use of tactics involving personal attacks on individuals by means
of widely publicized indiscriminate allegations especially on the basis
of unsubstantiated charges." -Merriam Webster online "McCarthyism"

"False reporting is not something I’m concerned with."
-anonymous creator of the spreadsheet

You don't have to be a genius to see that this method is highly problematic. Instead of a new McCarthyism, maybe we should try our hand at substantive structural reform. We're much better than this.

Mar 16, 18 5:36 pm

RobG, I totally agree that this method has problems. But I also think that structural reform efforts have more strength behind them *if* more people realize that harassment and abuse, of both sexual and non-sexual types, are a deep structural flaw within our system of architecture education and practice.

...and, for someone of either gender who has experienced weird/toxic treatment from a specific person, and is floundering in self-doubt wondering if they imagined it or are making more of it than they should (which is extremely common among harassment victims!), to see with that specific person's name a similar story that reinforces their own experience helps every victim analyze their own experience in more light. I take everything I read on this list about people I don't know personally with a huge grain of salt but the names and actions I recognize or have firsthand experience with I now feel more confident in condemning if called upon to do so.

curtkram

this is not mcarthyism. that was political. this is more like people without an outlet searching for some sort of help or some sort of hope. you're right that this method is problematic, but for the time being it's all there is. it's either this, or structural reform to make the problem go away.

Dangermouse

i don't dislike anonymous lists. i dislike secret anonymous lists. apparently we're now in the stage where vigorous pr scrubbing has started to occur, but there is no transparency, no accountability, no concern for victims. i mean, fuck the victims, am i right? we have careers and reputations to preserve! fucking god forbid a link gets posted! perish the thought that everyone, not the privileged few, could have the opportunity to have their experience validated, supported, and 'made real'. i know architects are cowards but somehow i'm still surprised when i see it validated.

RobG

The creator of this list left no ambiguity that she had no concern for the validity of the accusations or by extension their repercussions. Punishing people without regard for guilt or innocence has nothing to do with justice. It is an attack on an enemy. It is dehumanizing to The Other. I’m disappointed that this is where we are. I understand that accusing someone on an anonymous, publicly circulated list doesn’t carry the same punishment as accusing someone in the legal system, but there is also no due process for the accused, or accountability for a false accuser. Neither of those are inconsequential.

I’m still in school, but it seems like many of the structural power imbalances in the entertainment industry are present in architecture as well, for what appear to be the same reasons. From what I can tell our industries make heroes of a privileged few whom are granted access to most of the most high profile and interesting jobs. In addition there are far more people with the requisite skill than opportunities to utilize those skills. I would wager that without addressing the factors that cause such power imbalances that we won’t make much progress on this issue. Perhaps a more productive conversation might be to start brainstorming ways that power imbalances are created, reinforced and what we can do to mitigate or eliminate them.

A few people seem to think that the most reasonable way to engage the list is to treat the accusations with skepticism. I don’t see how that is progress by any metric. We can either focus our outrage on individuals based on unsubstantiated anonymous claims or we can doubt the accuser. No thanks. I won’t indulge in your list.

b3tadine[sutures]

The "creators", creators of the list. Plural.

Phantom's comment has been hidden
Phantom

TAKE IT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT

Here's the spreadsheet

Mar 16, 18 5:44 pm
verynicemodernhouses

I thought architects were better than this too. how disappointing

Mar 16, 18 11:24 pm

Pete: Please stop. I generally ignore your long posts because I know you're playing a character and it's not someone I'm interested in interacting with. (I do enjoy you when you're being your real name, tho.)

But when you say things like this: in short, check the history books, but when someone is tired of someone else, they dig up the sex scandals (or make them up) dump on the media and have the public go at it. you're referencing history in a vacuum.

When Richard Meier was in his 20s, the world was vastly different. Men of his age were brought up, as were women of the time, to think of women as literally less significant than men. I have a certain amount of forgiveness for older men who did gross things decades ago because the culture truly was different. 

When I started architecture school in 1985 I was still routinely met with raised eyebrows by men - and women - when I announced my major, and questions like "Why not interior design?".  I don't think women starting architecture school today get that question as frequently as women of my age did. Culture shifts: we're in a shift now.

People of my generation and younger in our field are products of a social period in which we know that sexual harassment is unacceptable, and someone in his/her 70s has been around for that shift long enough to know that they can't keep doing what they did in the 1980s without repercussions.  That behavior was only "acceptable" back then because it was not spoken of.

It's being spoken of now, and frequently enough that it can't be brushed off and ignored. We all know, honestly, that the culture of architecture has accepted abuse as a rite of passage. Sexual harassment and assault is far worse than berating a tired student in a public crit and suggesting they change their major, but it's all of the same genre of obnoxious, toxic, self-serving behavior that  we are *finally* starting to say we won't tolerate in our profession.

I've said this so often I'm sure ya'll are tired of hearing it, but Men: the professional policies that benefit women also benefit men. If the whole field becomes less focused on the singular all-powerful genius hero and more focused on the team as a whole that's good for all of us.

Mar 17, 18 10:34 am
b3tadine[sutures]

Citations. Citations. Citations. If these things against men are just as rampant, then you should have no problem bringing us evidence. You saying it happened means nothing, but then again most of what ramble on about, means nothing.

b3tadine[sutures]

Right, then there's this:

Balkins: "Not one single woman was EVER publically condemned for sexual harassing of men yet there are women who have done that and court cases."

You're infinitely worse than any anonymous accuser. You're someone that feigns knowledge of something, and then has no evidence to back their claims. Plus you hate women.


"One man to another - i will blackmail you with your own behavior. ..." what does this mean? I seriously don't understand.

Featured Comment

The list has made Jezebel. Read the comments there - there are (for obvious reasons) far more women architect and architecture-adjacent commenters there than here on Archinect.

https://jezebel.com/women-in-a...

Mar 17, 18 10:47 am
b3tadine[sutures]

Good.

tintt

Wow. A woman became a go-go dancer because she can get protection from sexual harassment in that job. Just wow. My husband HATES that I work in the construction industry. We joke all the time that I wish I had a bodyguard. I guess I'm not the only one.

Featured Comment
archanonymous

I was dissapointed this project didn't seem to get off the ground. Seems like a proactive, affirmative list would be another good step: http://architecture-lobby.org/...

Mar 17, 18 10:59 am
b3tadine[sutures]

white people it seems want to live in an a-historical world. Well, that's not how it works.

Mar 17, 18 11:00 am
jla-x

Huh?

jla-x

Are you suggesting that this is an old white guy phenomena? It’s not.

tintt

It seems men don't know that their dicks are not pleasant things to look at. Google "aborted rabbit fetus" and tell me what that looks like. Gods.

Mar 17, 18 11:24 am

Sort of wishing the list was not only public but forwarded to everyone in a position of power in any firm. It helps to see exactly what those under your management find to be acceptable and not acceptable.

Many of the accusations are obvious, obviously, but just as many find the fuzzy lines. It's helpful to understand even where the fuzzy lines are. I appreciate that insight, as a principal.  

I understand the 'no rules' aspect of it, and I also recognize that it's being managed - it's not just a free-for-all.

Seems there has been some trouble with deletions, potentially by those named. Maybe deletions could be made impossible without doc-manager approval. 

Finally, I do wish there was some burden of first-hand account to it. It's anonymous, after all. That would give it more agency/authority in my mind. Nit-picking, though. 

Mar 17, 18 2:25 pm
b3tadine[sutures]

I've noticed a local name on the list, and while I've heard he's likely to have been an abuser/misogynist, I just don't have a real accounting of what he's done.

architecturemetoo

the burden of the first-hand account is almost excruciating. part of the purpose of the list could be to see that there may be the opportunity for people to support each other and work together in speaking up more formally.

Can you help me understand that?

Trying to imagine circumstances:  I assume that's because some women would still be in the situation they want to describe? Because if the circumstances are recognized, there could be retribution?

Those conditions I understand but, barring that, first-hand anonymous accounts would seem less problematic. More powerful than 'I heard...'

architecturemetoo

sure - so sometimes, someone doesn't want to be the first, because she might be reocgnizable, which could lead to retaliation. but throwing out there - "hey, this is someone who we've heard stuff about," only of course when they actually have heard stuff, it's a little bit of waving a flag that maybe looking over at this person would be a good idea. sometimes women might have experienced an incident but not think it's that big of a deal - seeing someone's name though - recognizing that others might have experienced something - that can start to change the internal dialogue.

Yes. Makes sense. Thank you. 

Chemex

Didn't the Meier accusations get organized in person? And they seemed to be common knowledge (except for those of us podunks not involved in these east coast bourgeois feminist disputes). Seems like these lists are more for the smaller fish.

What gets confusing here is when you trail off into "general shitty behavior" and overwork, like what are you really talking about here? Are we trying to turn architecture into a leisure activity practiced only by a few upper class women? We have to find better, less divisive ways not to alienate 99% of men that don't assault women. Unless you don't care about what men think and do, in that case... good luck with that!

A little perspective would be nice (since nobody is ever going to publish a "good architecture men list") on how domestic, factory, construction workers are abused by upperclass men and women. Would make these issues look like a picnic. 

Mar 17, 18 4:24 pm
Chemex

With all of the publications with women editors whose sole purpose in life is to expose sexual harassment, i don't get the need to publish (cowardly) burn books. Just go to any publication!

Chemex, refer to archanonymous' featured comment at the top of this thread for a link to The Architecture Lobby's attempt to highlight *good* firms to work at. And the AIA's Firm Awards tend to also go to places that treat the whole firm as valued team members - as humans - and make good architecture, too.

jamesaleisterbarcelona

Tiffany Haddish said it best.

Youre Wrong Tiffany Haddish GIF by Saturday Night Live

Mar 17, 18 4:29 pm
jla-x's comment has been hidden
jla-x

I seriously don’t see why this is any different from yelp.  Due process is for criminal offenses where life or liberty is at stake.  Being generally shitty as a person is about as worthy of due process as a reastaraunt that has pubic hair in their soup.  One can put false reviews online and ruin a business pretty easily...but I’d say that overall, I trust yelp reviews when looking for somewhere decent to eat.   I’m not understanding why this list is so “dangerous.”  Men can also make a list of women who accused others falsely of that makes them feel better.  



Mar 17, 18 8:58 pm
jla-x

Wrong. Due process is from legal action not from social consequences or accusations.

b3tadine[sutures]

Immediately pursued a former student who was still an undergrad (22 y.o., 23 years his junior) at another University - called at midnight, left tokens / notes at home door. Was met with confusion then avoidance / ignoring to express no interest from student. After many months, upon meeting for coffee, he told personal details of sexual history (an affair with his professor when he was an undergrad) and propositioned / angled for an affair in many inappropriate words while repeatedly being told no, asked to stop, and then, demanded to hold her hand until student was in tears and stormed out.

asking female students back to his hotel room post lecture, being overly personally interested in female reporters, general shittiness? / (different person) approached a female colleague of mine whom he did not know at an event and began kissing her immediately / (different person - put his arm around me during a studio dinner when I was his student. Invited me to stay with him in his apartment in NYC, when I went to school in a different city. Began dating a student in an adjacent university department when none of the architects were interested.) / (different person) "{myedit}" was famous within the office for having dated countless interns. (different person writing) He was known for seeking out young women even before his career kicked off in the United States. I later learned that during one studio visit by a whole studio in the US he invited a female student back to his apartment during the school visit. / Banned from teaching at Yale because of persistent attempts to sleep with female students

Mar 17, 18 9:52 pm
b3tadine[sutures]

This one is for the Balkins types among us:

"Multiple women were assaulted by him at school. Two went to Yale administrators, one made a Title IX formal complaint. The perpetrator and Yale had a lawyer, the victim did not. No finding was made despite evidence of the victim’s claim of assault. In addition, other women have witnessed his harassing/shitty behavior, especially when they refuse his sexual advances."

Mar 17, 18 9:54 pm
b3tadine[sutures]

Yeah, these selected examples read like "vindictive" women, and are surely signs of "misandry". 

Fuck off already.

Mar 17, 18 9:55 pm
b3tadine[sutures]

Extremely sexist workplace.Female employee was withheld health insurance until her "performance improved" despite working there as long as a male colleague who was given health insurance automatically (at NYC office, not in UK). Other female employees in UK office looked over, not promoted, left due to office culture. Sexist comments toward female clients as well behind their backs. I was told that I "talk too much" during a formal review with no constructive review done (while at client's office). Culture of partying, drinking, smoking, boy's club with obvious favoritism toward other male employees. 


Mar 17, 18 10:01 pm
b3tadine[sutures]

For you men's rights advocates, let me remind you of theses simple facts; men don't walk down darkened streets afraid of women attacking them, men aren't cat-called just for walking on streets, men are never called bitches for turning down the advances of women, and men aren't having to deal with women thrusting their vaginas through their bathrobes at men.

#coda

Mar 17, 18 10:04 pm
b3tadine[sutures]

Sexual Harassment

In 2003, an AIA Women in Architecture study found that women accounted for 27% of staff in U.S. architecture firms. The honorific FAIA was held by 174 women and 2,199 men, or roughly 8% in 2005.

Mar 17, 18 11:02 pm
jla-x

Blaming that 100% on inequality is not accurate. Studies have shown that even in countries where equality is extremely vetted, like Scandinavian nations, men and women gravitate towards different professions...this is rooted in different interests...not abilities...Again, (I posted links in the other thread) a 50/50 even outcome is a poor metric. Things are more complicated than you are making them seem. If you view the entire world as a power struggle, like the post modernists, then you are really leaving out a huge chunk of the puzzle and being a bit disingenuous. We can’t have a discussion about male and female interactions without talking about science...Evolutionary biology, psychology, etc...Sure sociology is a part of it, but it’s a very very complex and nuanced issue, and even sociology is rooted in biology. The problem with these debates is that people reduce them down to the point where it just puts everyone against each other.

jla-x

Stats alone are not evidence. Why no scientific studies about this? Or maybe there are?

jla-x

And also don’t overlook the idea that they just may really be smarter...and have realized that architecture is a shitty profession.

Chemex

Out the shitty men that have broken the law. Leave the culture war or musings about the nature of starchitecture or how hard work life is at home. We have a constitution and laws .....

I do wonder if this SAM was started within the profession or by media. Seems too unoriginal to be a designer thing

Mar 17, 18 11:42 pm
Chemex

It is nice to finally see architecure in the news again. “We don’t care about you silly architects ..... wait, what was that you said about sexual harassment? That goes perfectly with our anti-design narrative....

Chemex

Also, if you see a guy who lectures and has teaching positions at a large number of schools in spite of a practice, that pretty much a dead giveaway. I told you [a certain architect] was bad, didn’t I? Otherwise, I don’t need a list to tell me who is creepy and who to avoid... it was always obvious, wasn’t it?

curtkram

you mean we have a constitution and laws that give these women freedom of speech to produce this document and freedom of press to disseminate it?

b3tadine[sutures]

"As this is a discussion, I suggest maybe the title be relabeled "Shitty Architecture People" (SAP). There may be a case out there where it is a women that is committing wrong. It keeps the list legitimate. We don't need a SAM and SAW list. One list is good enough. Other than that, I think the goal is fine. Sexual harassment, discrimination and like issues is wrong whether the perpetrator is man or women. (Only comment I need to say here.) The label just seems to give the implied impression that it is about targeting only men. The same tool should be applied regardless of gender. We may also learn more about those issues of woman being "Shitty" (whether it be sexual discrimination, sexual harassment or otherwise.) - over and out. RB-A"

Yes, Balkins took his insanely misogynistic monolog to the SAM, and yes, he got punched.


Mar 18, 18 12:37 am
b3tadine[sutures]

Balkins is done in here. Done. He's causing harm outside of this site. Done. 

Mar 18, 18 12:44 am
architecturemetoo

yeah that was v bad

architecturemetoo

<cause of death> <that conversation>


Mar 18, 18 12:52 am
Chemex's comment has been hidden
Chemex

I’m not surprised by the people on the list. They are all the most obnoxious, least talented architects that the media can’t get enough of. Think that would be the right angle — like, I didn’t see anyone that I admired, save for one there who “married a partner” which is weak. The ones that shut up and do good work don’t show up on these lists. 

And all we are going to hear about for the next year is how architecure has a problem. No, media and Ivy League universities have a problem. 

The same ones I was making fun of and y’all were defending. So I guess we can agree they are bad now. Like I said, those ones hanging out at multiple universities, creeping around interns, not a surprise.

Mar 18, 18 12:52 am
architecturemetoo

spoiler : : it's every industry. every one.

Yes, if you read the Jezebel thread there are many comments saying "Lawyers are like this too" Academia is like this too" etc etc etc. The problem is Toxic Masculinity. Some professions elevate and reward the traits of Toxic Masculinity more than others, but it exists everywhere.

Chemex

It's a power issue. Every industry gets misrepresented by its worst examples to some extent. What bothers me most (other than the harassment itself) is that media / academia to some extent gave these bullies a platform despite the fact they were always talentless, creepy a-holes. "We are a young architecture company" comes to mind... like how do they get away with that for so long? It's like, wink wink -- only good looking females students need apply here. Oh by the way, we are, like, interested in feminism. Yeah right!

Meanwhile, pop media will just use this as an opportunity to pay less attention to good architecture. It's a shite state of affairs for everyone... 

jla-x

I don’t believe “toxic masculinity” is a good term. There is nothing “toxic” about masculinity, and nothing wrong with it. asking men to curb their nature is part of problem. I just read an article about a crisis of boys in elementary school. Teachers are scolding them for typical boy behavior like rough housing. They are being put on meds for hyperactivity etc, at an alarming rate. Masculinity is being looked at as “bad” and femininity is being looked at as “good”. This is a ridiculous trend that denies 3 billion years of evolutionary biology. Being an asshole that disrespects women is “bad” being masculine is not. We have to really look at this stuff from a more scientific vantage, or we will be pushing against the stone wall of nature...

jla-x

In other words, rather than saying male nature is bad, we need to embrace it and redirect it in positive ways...sports, more recess time, etc. And in this case, speak of masculinity as standkng up for women colleges and being respectful. Hitting and assaulting women is not a manly thing to do. Punk ass guys do that shit. Masculine dudes slap the shit out of them. Lol

jla-x

* agh spell check

form follows gumption

“toxic masculinity” is a buzzword that only comes out when an argument becomes more emotional than logical.

jla-x

Misguided masculinity is a better term. This is often stemming from a lack of positive male role models/ father figure. Also dare I say, women should practice what they preach and stop giving the loud alpha males all the attention. It’s not secret that women gravitate towards the assholes. The nice guys don’t get the attention. This is a fact. The assholes are being emboldened by attention from females.

Toxic Masculinity means masculinity pushed to a toxic level. Toxic personalities are people you don't want to be around. Toxic rain means rain that has been poisoned. No one is saying that rain is bad or personalities are bad; no one is saying that masculinity is always bad. But masculine traits can be pushed to toxic levels. If it makes you feel safer, boys, I'll happily admit that Toxic Femininity can be a thing too, but while toxic femininity mostly makes people roll their eyes at all the pink, what does Toxic Masculinity do? Gets women killed: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/07/homicides-women/534306/

Oh god jla-x you truly are fucking stupid.  Of course the fact that you started a comment with "As a Libertarian, I..." means I needed to stop listening to you anyway. Through my tears of laughter I'm putting you on Ignore.

Chemex in the midst of so much garbage your comment above is so on point. The media attention to the sexy young exploitative firms or the jerks gets really tiring, and it's terrifying to think that the non-architects only see the worst of our profession. So the flip side to that is: we owe it to other disciplines to not do the same thing to them. There are jerk lawyers, yes, and entire TV shows have been made about them! But I personally know wonderful people who are lawyers and use those skills quietly for good. Same with accountants and contractors and PR people and everything else.

form follows gumption

Oh, we are well aware of toxic femininity, but thank you for your generous concession. "Your are stupid" is a response that has come up several times in this thread. It is incredibly childish and only demonstrates you can't have a reasonable discussion. Your heart is in the right place, but this thread is cancer at this point and only sabotaging the desired outcome.

jla-x

Sjw mode. Good bye.

jla-x

And the libertarian argument supports your list, so you missed out on that I guess.

jla-x

Your intolerance will troll trump into office again. Nice job

jla-x

Sjw’s are hijacking these debates and displaying a complete intolerance for all ideas that even slightly diverge from their pre scripted ideologies...even if the overall goal is shared...they seek a conformity of ideas...They are power hungry... They are intellectually fascist. It really makes me question their motives. Is this really about sexual assault, or about identity politics...

jla-x

They are not interested in building alliances or finding common grounds. They don’t even care about finding solutions.

jla-x

I challenge anyone to read this thread, all my comments, and then ask themselves if Donnas dismissal/attack of not just my ideas, but my person, is warranted.

jla-x

Why was form follows grumptions comment hidden? Lol. This is lunacy.

b3tadine[sutures]

Liberland has found its village idiot.

b3tadine[sutures]

“toxic masculinity” is a buzzword that only comes out when an argument becomes more emotional than logical. - written like a man with many issues

verynicemodernhouses

If you believe that there is literally something like an "alpha male" and cast people's discussion of the right to not be harassed in the work place as "sjw" as if those terms stood in for actual discussion, then yes, yes Donna's comments were warranted.

jla-x

“If” is key word. “If” you read anything I wrote you would see that you are wrong. A sjw is a fucking parody of a person who actually cares about a cause. A sjw is a person so entranced in their ideology that a logical discussion is impossible. Sjws care more about exerting power than the cause itself. Don’t be fooled. The modern university is a puke fest of garbage pseudoscience and poorly developed 19 year olds that haven’t yet found their tribe...I’m just surprised that architects, whom I thought were more open minded have fallen into this cult. It’s easy to say that 20% of women occupy architecture positions, therefore the patriarchy must be keeping the other 30% out. That logic is laughable, unscientific, and downright dishonest. All I said is that it’s ridiculous to assume that a 50/50 split would be the result of a perfect system. It likely would not. It is well known that males and females have different interests generally. More research and scientific studies need to be done before the degree of inequity can be established. It may turn out to be more...who knows...but stats are being thrown around, and anytime someone states an opinion that even slightly diverges from the sjw script they go full on bat shit. Y’all are worse than the religious right. This is like a damn religion. I’m on your side about stopping assault on women. I said that I support their right to oust men several times, and that such actions are free speech (in response to some talking about due process). Honestly this is like arguing with religious peolple about evolution. It’s hopeless.

b3tadine[sutures]

Okay Rand Paul, get back to your Aynn Rand.

jla-x

in b3’s communist utopia we would all have equality of outcome...meaning that RB would get exactly what you get. Accept that and then we’ll talk.

b3tadine[sutures]

I'm not a communist, a lazy Marxist. In my commune, Balkins would be on the outside looking in, as would you. Because, in my commune, we'd enjoy watching douchecanoes such as yourself actually try to do work, all by your wittle self. BTW, how is it being the village idiot of Liberland?

b3tadine[sutures]

Hey, laxative, are you licensed yet, or are you still complaining that NCARB doesn't do stupid?

jla-x

Doing quite well for myself. Thanks for asking. Did your argument run thin? Incredible how a professional as yourself could be such an intolerable narcissist. You must be a very psychologically immature person.

b3tadine[sutures]

Narcissist: a person who is overly self-involved, and often vain and selfish. - OKA, Libertarians.

jla-x

Libertarianism (from Latin: libertas, meaning "freedom") is a collection of political philosophies and movements that uphold liberty as a core principle. Libertarians seek to maximize political freedom and autonomy, emphasizing freedom of choice, voluntary association, and individual judgment.

b3tadine[sutures]

Bwahhhhhhhhhhaaaaa.

jla-x

What is so funny? Libertarian/classical liberal ideals are the reason why gays can marry, and you can speak foolishness freely. Of course any absolute ism is destructive...but the core principles are the basis of LIBERAL beliefs you dolt!

b3tadine[sutures]

Bwahhhhhhhhhhaaaaa.....

jla-x

I want to wipe my ass with that pathetic article.

jla-x

I am for completely open borders...opposite of nationalism.

jla-x

I don’t care what Frankenstein people are twisting things into. Doesn’t affect the core beliefs any more than the isis affects the core beliefs of Islam.

b3tadine[sutures]

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1980/10/28/six-ways-to-argue-with-a/

Enlightened Self-Interest

[3Domestic Policy--here is where you win. Libertarians believe in the deregulation of business, worshipping the free market as a sort of God. Remind your opponent that before regulation of business, industry did not exactly serve as an enlightened force in society. Upton Sinclair had plenty to write about when he turned his attention on the meat-packing industry; immigrants tended to die in apartment fires. If they want to argue that the present system is somehow different or if they start talking about how consumers can band together and start class action suits, then turn to Clark, P. 57: "I will remove the government from the nuclear fuel cycle, and utilities will be liable to any damage to life and property resulting from the conduct of their business and the disposal of spent fuel. One of two things will happen: Either a safe industry will emerge in the free market, or, if that is impossible, no industry will emerge. Either way, we will be safer than we are today." Either that, or an unsafe industry will emerge in a free market, everyone will make buckets of money for a few years, and then a few midwestern cities will disappear in puffs of radioactive fog. Courts and all.

In addition, libertarians advocate the end of the minimum wage. The guaranteed floor of $3.10 per hour is described by Clark as "legislation framed by politicians who seem to think it's better to be on welfare than to hold down a low-paying job." Or, you counter, by politicians who understand that it is impossible to eat on $1.75 an hour.

...But Not the Election

[6] Argument is not like a model submarine, and you've probably lost despite all the instructions. But if you still truly believe libertarians are wrong, there is an escape hatch. Sometime in the course of the conversation, make them admit that the liberties of the individual are paramount ("Ah, so you're saying the liberties of the individual are paramount?" "Exactly!"). Then ask them how they could possibly consider voting in a presidential election. I mean, after all, is the tyranny of 50 per cent plus one any better than the tyranny of one? How can a group of people impose their will on any individual? Don't you think it's incredibly hypocritical of you to vote and give your support to a system that imposes its authority on individuals? Libertarians would rather be stolen, raped and kidnapped than hypocritical. Ed Clark will never win


jla-x

Any ism at its extremes will self destruct. I am not an absolutist. Lean libertarian or probably more so classical liberal. Agree with some basic safety nets like universal medical, public schools, etc. some regulations are fine. I also believe in the competition of ideas...so wouldn’t want a pure libertarian system...I want immigrantion made so easy that no reasonable person would trek through the desert...I want those immigrants to succeed...don’t care about assimilation either. Just want peolle to be free from govt intrusion...because tyranny is always around the corner...The
revolution will be decentralized!

jla-x

And yes, sometimes inequity is the cost of freedom, and while I don’t like it, I like tyranny less. Nothing is perfect because people are imperfect.

jla-x

Question is, how much authority are you willing to deal with to implement a system where 100% equality/equity can be established? who will run this system?

i wouldn't consider the hand on my leg sexual harassment, i would consider it inappropriate behavior and if being more stern was required i could of just stood up or told the lady to back off, after all as a man,and she knew that,whats there to complain about, men are that simple typcially

This collection of words is completely ignorant. 

Men don't get to say "That's just how men are!" any longer. Period, no more. If men can't use their brain to control a sexual desire then they need to remove themselves from any social contact. Women have been *trained* through society and good manners to control our sexual desires at inappropriate times and there's no reason men can't too. The Naked Ape was bullshit when it was written and it's pitiful, laughable bullshit now.

Mar 18, 18 9:48 am
jla-x

Women evolved that way because the cost/risk of sex is high for them.

jla-x

You can’t even talk about well established science anymore without getting read the riot act.

And ugh goddammit let me be perfectly clear: I'm pissed off. This thread and the comments by Pete and RB and so many others are pissing me off.

I'm not pissed off because any of you all are making good points that contradict my argument so I'm getting defensive about it. I'm pissed off because you're making the same tired, boring, ignorant, discredited arguments that men have been making for decades and I am sick and tired of trying to explain it to you. If you won't do your own homework why do I need to spend time convincing you that the world is not flat and vaccines don't cause autism and men engage in behavior that makes the world unsafe and unfair for women?

Listen before you speak. Your experience is not everyone's experience and is not the only legitimate experience that exists. Listen before you speak. Be willing to shut up and learn for a change. FFS.

Mar 18, 18 9:55 am
tintt

when somebody shows how stupid they are, just let them.

Tintt I try, and I try, and I try and then I finally get fed up. And it's Sunday morning so it's not like I can even blame alcohol for losing my cool LOL! But you're right of course. I'm taking a quick break.

randomised

"Listen before you speak. Your experience is not everyone's experience and is not the only legitimate experience that exists. Listen before you speak. Be willing to shut up and learn for a change. FFS."

Telling people to shut up, just because they're a guy...sorry I don't get that, silencing people, especially in this debate, only because of someone's gender...maybe reread these words Your experience is not everyone's experience and is not the only legitimate experience that exists. That goes both ways!

verynicemodernhouses

Usually it goes something like this...

joseffischer

randomized, I think the point is that there really isn't a debate here. What is there to debate? Are you guys seriously suggesting that there is a grey area in this topic? We aren't discussing some theoretical topic in school, women are sharing their direct and often horrifying experiences and calling out names. The only thing we should be doing as men is supporting this process and getting the local authorities to handle the perpetrators. My personal pet peev is how so many men are responding with some sort of "Well that's not how I recall it, huhu, but I apologize if she took it that way."

To mansplain the situation, as a married man, if you do something to someone that they didn't want, and that act would cause me to punch you in the face if you tried it on my wife, you went too far. 

randomised

I don't like to be told to shut up and listen, that's what generations of men told women and is part of the problem...don't you see the irony in that?

tintt

Pete, you should totally start a spreadsheet about your experiences too. You've been through some real hell. (not being serious here.) A girl took off her sweater in front of you, revealing another shirt underneath? And tossed her ponytail? And asked for tutoring? lol I know a good therapist who can help you realize you didn't deserve that.

Mar 18, 18 10:04 am

LOL well done, Tintt.

tintt

Oh, you were kidding? I didn't get that.

b3tadine[sutures]

You've been watching too many Michael Douglas flicks. I'm guessing you think Disclosure happened to you as well?

tintt

Hey pete, I haven't put together what exactly you are talking about but I'm really sorry for whatever you've been through. People hurting and using each other is something I wish I could do away with.

Chemex

one positive note amidst the darkness: the many new female deans aren’t going to stand for this shit. And new branding opportunities .... dBAG Group comes to mind

Mar 18, 18 12:08 pm
Chemex

I’d hope series accusations go to the media, and hope the more grey area offenders aren’t invited to universities or profiled anymore in media

Chemex

Serious

b3tadine[sutures]

You know nothing.

b3tadine[sutures]

I've personally had "conversations" with some of these victims, you literally have zero clue. 16 confirming stories against one of the biggest architects in the profession? Fuggedaboutit. You and I both know, if your daughter ever reported to you one incident of unwanted touching, jersey boots would be the next thing around the offender's feet. So GTFO.

b3tadine[sutures]

That's not true and you know it. Of course the sheet itself takes one person to start, and share, but the listing of the numbers proves that statement is disingenuous at best. As for the content. It's Shitty Architecture Men. I'll agree with this, what is toxic to one, may not be toxic to all, but why did love of Jesus can we not agree second hand douchebaggery is toxic for everyone in the environment.

tintt

I think any reasonable person can agree that working hard and sexual harassment or rape is not the same. Why would that mean the answer is to discredit it all? If in fact you are a victim, Pete, you should know how it feels to be victimized and you should want to support victims, no? Sure there are things on the list to sort out or that didn't belong. So sort them out, dont need to throw it all out.

tintt

Do the "hard work" of sorting it out.

b3tadine[sutures]

"There is no female equivalent of the ways in which Toxic masculinity enables abuse. The concept of "toxic masculinity" exists to highlight the organized, political nature of domestic violence and other forms of violence against women. While abuse by women aimed at adult men exists, it's exceedingly rare and when it isn't actually self-defense being mischaracterized as an abuse, it happens individualistically, not as part of a patriarchal pattern of political violence. Abuse by women aimed at children is much more common, but the roots of that abuse are also in patriarchy, not femininity. Child abuse is a way in which women can actively participate in supporting patriarchal structure, and Internalized sexism means that women, as well as men, will continue to abuse children as long as patriarchy continues."

Mar 18, 18 1:05 pm
jla-x

Everything is patriarchy! Who comes up with this shit. Women abusing children is not caused by patriarchy...that is the most absurd argument of all time.

placebeyondthesplines_

god it’s just so hard to be you, isn’t it

jla-x

This sjw thing is a mental disease. Really.

jla-x

Pbts what does that have to do with anything? Blaming everything on the patriarchy, but convieniently only the “western” patriarchy...when in fact the west is like 1000x more just and free for women. FOH. It’s clear that there is a hidden agenda riding on the back of this issue along with others.

jla-x

I’ll leave it at this Pete....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1agIlLlhg

jla-x

like watching a cult of mental midgets.

b3tadine[sutures]

Leave to two ass clowns. You snowflakes really are having a hard time with the reality; white male hegemony is coming to an end, and toxic masculinity is responsible. Suck it up buttercups, you're symptoms, not causes.

jla-x

The Bret Weinstein incident in case you didn’t know. This is the kind of madness happening in universities.

jla-x

But, hey blame the patriarchy...take zero responsibility for your actions...see “martyr complex”

jla-x

That’s what happens with the sjw madness being spread.

jla-x

Like I said...it’s complicated

jla-x

The neo-marxists in the humanities departments want you to think it’s simple...because they are pushing pseudoscience and pimping nimble minded students...

jla-x

Actually, they aren’t even pushing pseudoscience...that gives them too much credit... they are just pushing biased opinions...

jla-x

One example...I argued with a sociology professor in front of like 100 students in a lecture...she was trying to say that gender is 100% social construct...even had test questions that to get correct, one would have

jla-x

Comply with that narrative...which is false and very well understood by real scientists.

jla-x

And Ironically, women like the strong and successful men...it can be argued (don’t have the time to do it justice now) that women prop up the patriarchy by desiring partners whom are successful...Men do what they do to attract females...this is the case with all mammals...females select the fittest, and men struggle to be the fittest...it’s why Donna dreams about Brad Pitt rather than Brad Shmitt from 7-11...A little introspection and understanding of why these structures exist on a basic biological level is a good starting point...but the sjws can’t have a serious in depth debate without going nuts and labeling anyone who dares ask the hard questions as sexist, racist, etc...Simultaneously we have movies like 50 shades that you pointed out...and a total lack of outrage over some of the most oppressive regimes towards women like Saudi Arabia, Quatar, etc...Not a mention of firms who work in these areas...where is the list of countries that have abominable human and women’s rights violations...why not
boycott them?crickets.

jla-x

We aren’t in the jungle anymore, so we can to a degree circumvent our biology...but we have to be honest and understand this stuff first. To simply blame it all on the “patriarchy” is a very narrow and dishonest approach. Women have had far more power in shaping society, since the beginning, than they like to admit. And yes, matriarchal societies have existed...powerful female leaders have too. Some have even been quite brutal.

jla-x

Don’t want that last part to get misconstrued...it is a fact that males are far more violent and aggressive...fact...but that’s not to say that women aren’t playing a part in that system...

jla-x

The idea that we have been clobbering women over the head and dragging them around for the last million years is simply not true. It’s been mostly a cooperative effort towards survival. This idea that men and women are rivals and have been in a power struggle since the dawn of time is foolish.

jla-x

Wow. Yeah, have you seen the show on Netflix “cold justice sex crimes”. Two female detectives go to various towns police departments and try to solve rape cases on backlog...many from pre-dna era. I was shocked to see how many kits have been just sitting there. Check it out. Good show. Really scary to think how many people are out there who have done things and got away with it.

Featured Comment

This expectation — that power over others is a viable, noble path to happiness — lingers in the way we talk, in the way we define manhood, in the expectations males place on each other....The forces of civilization and education are very slowly discrediting this stone-age approach to life, and dismantling the power imbalance that has grown around it.

For us to get there, young men need to understand as early in their lives as possible that men have a long history of getting their way for no good reason. This advantage comes, of course, at the expense of fellow human beings, and we need to learn to be aware of it and eliminate it wherever we see it.

https://buildingboys.net/one-m...

Mar 18, 18 2:19 pm
jla-x

some matrilineal societies...very rare throughout history...but interesting read...http://mentalfloss.com/article/31274/6-modern-societies-where-women-literally-rule

Mar 19, 18 1:58 am
Non Sequitur

On a tangential note, and not to cause distraction to the more important cause, I've always been careful when discussing washroom accessories with female coworkers.  Not sure if I'm just being too cautious, but I don't want to risk making some junior staff feel uncomfortable because the topic of conversation is proper location of sanitary disposal receptacles / vendors or urinals.  Getting that stuff right is part of the job and like it or not, we still need to get it correct. I mean, I almost refused an occupancy letter to a contractor last summer because he refused to put a sanitary waste basket in a unisex washroom.  That was an actual argument I had, and won.

We have quite a few young women here and every project have these in addition to others we need to address like view angles, deadend corners, security alarm locations, films on glass for the upskirt peepers, etc.  

Am I just being too cautious? Are some people affected negatively by these seemingly normal office relevant discussions, and if so, should I approach this differently? 

p.s. Is this the first serious thing I've ever written on archinect? Probably.

p.p.s. for Sir Connery's sake Balkins... happy his fake Donna apology tread was nuked.





Mar 19, 18 9:31 am

I'm hoping RB was nuked with it.

tintt

It is not sexual harassment to talk about waste receptacles or plumbing fixtures. But I know what you mean. The women in the offices I worked at talked about this once, that none of the males would spec sanitary napkin disposals so we decided it was out job and we would go into projects that we weren't even on to sneak them in. Never brought it up to the guys, just did it.

Non Sequitur

Thanks Tintt. I actually do most of the spec for the accessories and I draw up careful elevations so that the devices appear functional and rational eventhough I have no practical experience with them. It's another thing when I have to talk about security if a designer is foolish enough to place the women's washroom at the end of a corridor and past the men's room. How do you explain... well, in the event that someone wants to attack, placing the women's room closer to the atrium gives them a better chance at escape... or have to remind people that you could unknowingly design places that could lead to uncomfortable situations. See that balcony, if you don't put opaque film, all the men will be waiting to catch a free upskirt shot. eugh. oh and yes, don't pay any attention that I am also a man.

b3tadine[sutures]

Sweet Jesus. Women have periods? What? You mean they need places to put pads? No way? Psst....guess what? We're even putting changing tables in Men's rooms!

Non Sequitur

^I don't think you understood what I was getting at there.

b3tadine[sutures]

Non, I do, if you approach the conversation like an adult, not as 16 year old kid, then these questions are matters of fact, and have nothing to do with what ever you think it does.

b3tadine[sutures]

Biological function, is not sexual function.

Non Sequitur

There was more to it that simple accessories thou as per the follow-up paragraph. Still not within the harassment specter, but curious to see what others consider evasive.

b3tadine[sutures]

I think you do what we all do; consider the audience, and modify speech accordingly. Treat people like their adults, and don't talk about the coefficient of friction of stripper poles with your priest.

curtkram

if you overcome the uneasiness, i think it becomes pretty easy. pretty soon you'll be walking the girls into the mens room and have them lead you into the women's room so you can talk about why you should keep toilet partitions 12" off the ground (not 305mm).
aside from that, 'mirroring' in psychology is where you subconsciously imitate the behavior of the person you're interacting with.  so if you make them nervous talking about toilets and such, it's quite possible you can become nervous as well.


Non Sequitur

but we specify partitions at 305mm AFF... unless it's at 205 for the nice models. The custodians don't automatically get better thou. Where were we going with this?

randomised

Partitions should go all the way from ceiling to the floor and made of nice strong material, preferably with tiles glued to it...those partitions where you can see and hear people s(h)sitting are freakin cheap and disgusting, ugh...

curtkram

Would you have a separate floor drain in each stall then? Are you going to break all that for tile to accommodate the slope to the drain? Crazy.

b3tadine[sutures]

curt, you can put a slot at the base of the wall. The partitions for an air I worked on were essentially stud walls. Although it's pricey af.

Non Sequitur

^Right? If the client demands it, we just spec high-privacy stalls. They have no peek gaps and are 4" AFF. It's a pain to mop the floors thou so most building owners don't want them.

randomised

How are proper walls a pain in the ass to keep clean in bathrooms? Don't you have those at home, how's that working? Or do people not know how to properly use a toilet and shit all over the walls in American offices?

Non Sequitur

First Rando, I'm Canadian. Those shelves are for Tim Horton cups, not pistols. Second and from my experience, the custodian's union tends to have a say in washroom dividers and accessories when it comes to large office buildings and federal tenants. Far easier to mop under everything in one swoop than go in each stall. Cost also functions in too. We do hardwall and tile partitions between showers thou. I'd like to consider hardwalls, but you gota pick your battles.

b3tadine[sutures]

Have you ever taken a dump at Newark Airport?

tintt

I thought the space between the bottom of stall partition and the floor was to see if anybody was slumped over (heart attack) or in other trouble (being raped).

b3tadine[sutures]

random, you should know this about Americans; we're filthy animals.

curtkram

I would suggest we reference 604.9.5.1 of 2009 ICC A117.1 as well. https://cdn-codes.iccsafe.org/bundles/document/new_document_images/559/Fig_604.9.5.jpg

b3tadine[sutures]

curt, the airport restrooms i've worked on had separate ada toilet rooms.

Non Sequitur

I've never seen that before Curt. We just require our handicap stalls to be 1600w x 2060d at the minimum (also, in mm) just enough space for a 1525 dia turning space without hitting anything.

curtkram

ANSI is scoped in the IBC. Canada still uses that as a model code don't they? Beta, I like the idea of separate accessible rooms, which are also good for taking a little kid into the restroom, assisting old or disabled people, transgender people or those who might not be comfortable in a public restroom environment, etc. It eats leasable square footage though, which a lot of developers don't care for.

b3tadine[sutures]

curt, in fact, they have those too.

Non Sequitur

Curt, Canada has it's own national building code as well as a separate accessibility code (CSA B651-12). Since I practice in Ontario, I have a 3rd code (OBC) which takes precedence. That toe-clearance under stall partition in your example is not something I've ever come across. We also now require separate Universal washrooms in addition to the typical handicap spaces. These large rooms need to accommodate nursing stations (adult change tables) and stretchers... and we have our own UL stuff too. Try explaining that to a contractor.

randomised

Non, that wasn't meant for you, I know you're Canadian, everybody knows that :) it was meant just more in general and somehow I used your words subconsciously, while not even typing it in the reply box.

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