^ How so?

geezer, there is a lot happening and I'm pressed for time but here is one thing: The AIA voted last year to require architects seeking awards, the Gold Medal and building design awards, I believe, the certify that they have not employed people for no pay in their firm.

Ever? That'll thin the herd.

Let's just get rid of award culture.

Award culture has its issues, certainly. Pritzker is again under fire for awarding the most recent prize to someone who had previously served on their jury. But then again: architecture is a TINY community. We all kinda know each other and at certain higher levels they all really DO know each other. There're both good and bad aspects of how small a community we are! One thing I like about the AIA Firm Award is that it awards a good culture within a firm, not just focusing on the *hero designer*.

That's the award I've always been most interested in. It takes a massive amount of effort from everyone on a team to make a great building. Doing it on the regular requires not only a good leader but also great individuals at every level working together. It's a rare thing.

I'm with Tinbeary. The awards culture is just another manifestation of the "heroic" star system culture. We're not celebrities, we're supposed to be professionals. There's something sad about people soliciting their fellow professionals for a reward. Leave that shit for the talent-less folks in Hollywood. You don't see doctors doing that.

https://www.ama-assn.org/excellence-medicine-awards. I think that the relatively unknown nature of these awards is more a function of the lack of appeal to the masses compared to more artistic and experiential professions. To say they don't have them is not true, though.

I stand corrected.

Ditto.

agreed

the fact that the list remains a secret engenders obfuscation, confusion, and gaslighting when the opposite is needed. no one in the profession benefits from a list held by the few. obviously, the media benefits; how else are they to tranche their choice exposés over a period of time? meanwhile abusers continue to abuse, and victims receive no justice.

That's an interesting observation. I don't think that was the goal, but it's worth considering.

edit: wrong location. deleted.

This scares me too, the stuff that is done covertly. I can only imagine what men and say and do in the absence of women. My uncle told me that if I knew what men thought about that I'd never talk to one ever again.

So do you think the fact that society places a man’s worth on how much he makes as not a factor in pay gaps? That more men are willing to say FU and quit to achieve a bigger salary? And what then do we replace our current negotiated system with to counteract this? A pay scale based purely on tenure and title with no relationship to performance?

I apologize I don’t mean that as confrontational, I really am curious, it scared me that in the equity surveys I’ve taken they seem to think transparent pay is the answer, which then you’ve just turned private enterprise into the government in terms of compensation.

@a_d: Transparency exposes systematic inequality. Many job apps in the UK are done without name, age, gender preference etc., so to remove unconscious bias including nepotism and good old boy systems that give preference to men. Employers only see your statement, cv, portfolio. In Norway and Sweden all individual salaries are on a open database so you can see how much anyone in your office makes. Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark are 1-4 best quality of life countries - much to learn here.

So you would be fine busting your ass and making as much as the person whose only good at looking busy and really just
spends all day web browsing?

No one is suggesting that.

How not? Equal pay for equal position? Everyone thinks they are a top performer, if there’s a discrepancy surely it must be sexism.

Next thing you're gonna tell me women make false reports about sexual harassment to stick it to guys they don't like. 

This is a tired argument that's trotted out by naysayers every time, and there's little if any evidence to show it ever happens.

You haven’t offered any evidence that transparent pay doesn’t eliminate individual ability to negotiate a higher salary. Shouldn’t the emphasis be on empowering woman to feel confident enough to demand equal pay instead of bringing every one down to a transparent non-negotiable equal level? And no nowhere in my argument am I saying that sexual harassment claims are false, you only added that becuase currently argument has no merit and you trying to demonize me silence me becuase I disagree. No.

It's not an either/or. The levels of disinformation that are disemminated by employers regarding whether people can discuss salary are an example of how regarding it in such black and white terms is dangerous. If you're in the dark stabbing blindly you have no leverage, no matter how empowered and confident you might be. And having a system like the government where your salary is fully transparent doesn't encourage much in the way of progress, either. There's probably a good middle ground, but by all means keep fighting over the extremes.

Touché Mr Pete

"And no nowhere in my argument am I saying that sexual harassment claims are false" ...yes it's called an analogy.

+ what Pete said.

"transparent non-negotiable equal level"
Transparent doesn't mean equal or non-negotiable.

Just google the ramifications of implementing it. I personally can negotiate a high salary for myself, if people can’t, that sucks learn how to play the game. Companies that implement transparent pay are generally stuck at attaching pay to years experience and title. Performance is too hard to prove outside of a sales or business development role so you might get a quick bump up if you are downtrodden but then everyone is stuck. “We generally stick at this rate for our job captains and offer a 3% bump per year of additional exerpience, wait for a promotion for a new negotiation.”

@tduds,

Where's your proof Balskid?

Blah, blah, blah....no proof.

"It was a woman who took the forbidden apple from the Tree against the command of God." - the actual reason he hates women.

@archi_dude,

Hit enter too soon... A series of studies out of Harvard (Bowles et. al.) over from over a decade ago show that men are more likely to be rewarded and women are more likely to be penalized for attempting to negotiate for a higher salary. In such a situation, men are treated as go-getters, and women are treated as being too aggressive. It is not simply a situation of 'that sucks, learn how to play the game.' The study goes to prove what most women learn through experience: "it is not always good advice for women to act more like men in order to claim the same resources and privilege." In general, men and women are routinely treated differently.

Romantically it works the exact opposite, doesn't it?

What even are you trying to say? Are you implying that because we have a cultural norm for men to pick up the check on dates that women should not push for equal pay? Why don't you lay out your thoughts explicitly and in detail so I can take it down point by point..

My wife has repeatedly stated that she would gladly change those norms just to get rid of that lame talking point.

archi-dude I agree, studies have shown that women are more agreeable than men. Some psychologists argue that wage imbalance is probably partly because women are less likely to fight for higher wages. He says agreeability is a genetic trait that is beneficial for ones ability to care for an infant...more agreeable...better ability to tend to infants needs...there are evolutionary differences between the sexes that have a lot to do with this all. Automatically assuming that it’s all about sexism is really counterproductive and silly. It may be, it may not, it may be a combination of things.

Men and women who ignore these natural differences/tendencies, and buy into this idea that everything is a social construct, are foolish. It’s a little of both. I’m not saying this to suggest that pay gaps are natural/inevitable, as I’m sure some will try to twist things, but rather that maybe women need to be “empowered” like archi-dude suggests, and be conscious to not be as agreeable. If you don’t understand these things fully they can’t be changed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/#!po=10.4396

Perhaps:

I'm all about believing women, and we should acknowledge that Architecture is too close to a zero-sum game for this list to work without providing really specific details about what it means to be a "shitty man".

Yup.

I've seen people go to HR because "John was being mean to me; he gives me so many red lines".... Except John does that to everyone, it's your second week and you're just fucking up a lot, stop whining.

The same thing just happened at my firm but the interns claimed “ageism” was why they didn’t have expanded roles 6 months post graduation.

I'm fairly confident that those sorts of issues won't feature prominently on this list.

Hah, I've been "John". The intern apologized later. Since then, I've learned to hold my tongue. There are better ways to ask "Have you ever seen a wall framed before?" ie, not even asking it, and instead, schedule a site visit with a friendly contractor and invite all the interns to go. Then, when you get there, based on the drawings without enough dimensions, have the interns explain to the contractor where the walls should go.

The time when your to-do list is a mile long, including many things the intern was supposed to do, said they completed, and never even touched, and your deadline is EOB (end of business day) and you've given the intern redlines of the table of contents among other minor typos, etc, and they comment "why should I have to do these?" This is not the time to remind them that there is a hierarchy in the office for a reason, that CEO so-and-so put the intern on your team, that you have to get said list of their work done because they didn't do it, and that of the three people working on the job, the intern is best suited to fix the table of contents. That gets you an HR meeting too : /

Admittedly, that HR meeting was more for tone and less verbiage. No yelling or cursing or even mean words were used, but my frustration was clearly obvious.

I agree that our profession has all kinds of toxic work environment issues. No argument from me on that at all.

I still think that if we're going to talk about gossip, we should at least be able to look at the spreadsheet. The prurient interest demands it! ;-)

It's a very tiny profession. Most 18 year old would-be architects meet their first architect in school. That's where the Stockholm Syndrome has its roots. Blame the schools.

Don't want to be a broken record, but supply and demands explains 90% of the problems in this profession

"Don't want to be a broken record, but supply and demands explains 90% of the problems in this profession" - what does this refer to?

I wondered what that meant too. Perhaps it means we should cull the herd by taking the license from those who engage in criminal behavior or who harass colleagues. Works for me.

Do you think it is an opportunity to be abused first? Man often master the game after that; however, not many women can do the same. It is one reason of the gap.

No.

I've seen the list too. It's 20-30% terrible, criminal behavior, and 70-80% bitching about the profession, rigorous work standards, and other things that are expected in practice and in no way unique to or the responsibility of men, beyond the simple fact that our society is traditionally patriarchal.

The list says Shitty Men in Architecture, not serial sexual abusers. If you are a man, and can't figure out how to interact with other women, in a professional manner. You're a shit.

Let's try this: If you are a PERSON, and can't figure out how to interact with other PEOPLE, in a professional manner. You're a shit.

Oh, you mean a gender-blind society, okay I get it; Fantasyland.

Gender blind, color blind, leaves us a blind.

You know what? For all your efforts at trying to appear as terribly bright, you reveal yourself as the most obtuse and absurd little pissant. We're all talking about a very specific thing, in which it hasn't become painfully obvious, has men at the centers of the power dynamic. If there are women there, they will be on the list as well, but the numbers, ridiculously infinitesimal.

"Men don't report sexual harassment against them by women because it is not done... men aren't suppose to do that. They be laughed at and ridiculed. "

If this happens, it's clear you'd be the one laughing, and ridiculing. You are a piece of work. I'm convinced you're a shut-in.

Women talking about men harassing them isn't sexism. The guideline: is it punching up or down? Women saying men harass them is punching UP, because men have more power.

additionally, the list isn't about women attacking men, it's also worth noting that there are predatory gay architects. another point, this list is about victims of abuse, and the perpetrators of abuse. your characterization of sexism smacks of misogyny.

All I'm saying is, it is about harassment and abuse of power first and foremost and not necessarily about Shitty Men, this kind of generalisation is sexist and does more harm than good, especially in this debate. It should therefore be about Shitty People im(h)o...It should be directed at the people in power, the harassers, not necessarily men (in power or not) and women as the passive victim. As if women can't harass people, I find that a very patronising approach to be honest, I've worked for and with plenty of (strong) women and women are at least as capable as men in being a Shitty Person.

@b3ta: "your characterization of sexism smacks of misogyny."

Could you elaborate?

What I'm saying is that how about we focus on the status quo first. And, if you have instances of women threatening men, or predatory behavior of women architects, in positions of power, then name the names.

Calling victims of sexual harassment sexist, in my opinion is misogynistic. The victims are women, the perps are men.

I think it is simply not fair to women to only portray them as potential victims, they've come a long way you know...it's a very submissive and passive position they are put in like this, which I think is sexist. If that's misogyny to you, well sorry I don't see it that way.

I dare say, women who are abused, or assaulted, are strong. Coming out and naming the abuse, is power, not submissive.

Sorry, but discussing this about women and not with women is screwing with my mind.

This is a men problem, not a women problem. Perhaps we men should get into a room, and work it out?

sounds to me like the suggestion that we're portraying women as victims implies women choose to be victims. the mindset that women are being portrayed as victims might be part of the problem, and it might be why beta is suggesting this is a man problem instead of a woman problem.

to say it another way, men are being portrayed as perpetrators, because some men choose to be perpetrators.

Arm women. Let them shoot a couple of these fuckers...problem solved. Yay for the constitution. That’s what they did in India.

Yep. Problem solved in India.

Yer dumb.

Not all men are shit people, but most of the shit people are men.

"Not all men are shit people, but most of the shit people are men."
It's a power thing...not all people in power are shit people, but most shit people are the ones in power. And yes, most of the people are men...

Hm, might be legit, might be a scam, clicker beware, they request your email.

http://time.com/4765911/google-docs-phishing-mailinator-virus/

Multiple coverups of instances of sexual harassment of female employees by clients and senior male employees of the firm, Blatant discrimination again female leadership in design, female employees encouraged to become project managers rather than design leads, Derogatory comments made by male HR manager about female employees’ potential to become pregnant ...

does not sufficiently credit women's contributions to projects, fetishistic targeting of young, attractive women to mentor

Asked female assistant to organize studio end of the year party in strip club. Created a hostile learning envionment for women and men; known to have made sexual advances with students in front of other students in parties.

kissing/grabbing/hugging women in the office against their will, even after he was asked to stop in the middle of the office by a woman employee

Sought out and invited several female students to dine out after a lecture he gave under the guise of 'equality and representation'. Proceeded to describe his practice of overworking his employees (both male and female) until they were in a state of exhaustion which resulted in better architecture during dinner. Hit on multiple students at the dinner and continued to pester one female student to come back to his hotel room with him. She declined.

That's quite a confession...

delivered visiting lecture at Wash U in St. Louis and attended off campus happy hour post event where he innapropriately grabbed female student's ass and suggested continuing the party, his accompanying faculty/travelling partner admitted his behavior is constantly innapropriate toward female students 'thats just the way he is' (different writer) this was my experience when he visited Cornell as well, only that he was after a young female faculty member. (Different writer) dragged his pointer finger along a female student’s body at WashU, from between her breasts to her crotch. Was speaking to her about sex when he did this and told her he could “show her.”

To my defense, the list was rather slim when I first looked at it. There were a few dozen active people making changes.

The doc is getting better at assigning categories of assholishness.

^Yes, I just reopened it.

Adam, has sexually assaulted, from groping to rape, 3 known colleagues, 2 of the women received physical violence and verbal abuse

I, or anyone else that is human, don't care what you want. You're a misogynist troll. People don't hate you because you are a man, they hate you because you are contemptible.

I love men, and women, and gender fluid people equally. I hate you, and hope a truck hits you.

delivered visiting lecture at Wash U in St. Louis and attended off campus happy hour post event where he innapropriately grabbed female student's ass and suggested continuing the party, his accompanying faculty/travelling partner admitted his behavior is constantly innapropriate toward female students 'thats just the way he is' (different writer) this was my experience when he visited Cornell as well, only that he was after a young female faculty member. (Different writer) dragged his pointer finger along a female student’s body at WashU, from between her breasts to her crotch. Was speaking to her about sex when he did this and told her he could “show her.” / (different writer) I was invited to give a lecture in a workshop with him, after which he aggressively flirted with me and told me I was beautiful and that he desired me. After explaining that I was not interested in a romantic or physcial relationship, he insisted on accompanying me back to the hotel where we were staying and continued to ask me why I wasn't interested in him. His assistant had supposedly booked my accomodations and I was afraid that he would suggest I share a room with him. He continued to flatter me and keep his body very close to mine while I tried to deflect the attention. At first chance, I firmly said goodnight, ran away to my room, and locked the door.

IS kinda bad. Scratch that, IS BAD. Don't rub other people at work, people. Unless you're a massage therapist or something.

I've been dry raped. I know the feeling. It was on a bus. I don't work at starchitect's offices, probably for that reason.

Gross gross gross. There's no excuse for that shit. I'm sorry you experienced that.

... Criminally bad would be the adverb I would use

They made the doc with the sole purpose of it to surface, don't be naive...

Why are you impuning the motives of these victims?

I'm not, but the fact it is shared in GOOGLE docs means it was meant to surface and easily shared with many people, otherwise why make this list at all this way and not write it in your private journal...?

Reminds me of the WaPo fake news list. Anonymous, unverified, malicious, slanderous. Judgement and execution by rumor and hearsay.

I believe the accounts.

I saved a copy of the doc as it was posted a few hours ago.

Donna, you're correct but based on the spreadsheet that's building.... examples like Steven Holl "heard chatter that he's a harasser" are pretty weak. Healthy skepticism is good, sloganistic yelling is not. 

 side note, I was at the pub for a while. I assume i'm writing something that made sense.

can you email me a link NS? my google skills are apparently not up to the job.

never mind. someone put it on another thread

cool. bookmark it.

Jesus, seriously. Don't make a joke out of this, Archinecters. Please. Save your toy-batting for people coming here to OUR space, Archinect, and asking for free advice about the style of their house.

Did I miss something?

I'd rather not stir the shit. It's done.

I'm close to changing my mind.

was this what I think it was?

This was 1000% my error. I'm not familiar with Archinect, I knew there was someone with a "b" name missing, and someone offered a name on a discussion forum. I didn't think someone would make jokes about adding someone, so I added the name. It was a terrible error, and I'm glad that it was quickly fixed.

It's all good, in fact if you read its posts here, you might understand why he maybe should be added, he hates women. And there's some possibility that, given how he talks about women, why he may have issues with women.

oh, interesting! if i had direct experience, it'd be on there. i'll keep an eye on the list. also, @b3tadine you are a gift to this entire discussion.

ok i figured out who balkins is and read some posts and ... i get it now. still shouldn't have been on there, but ... i get it.

I removed Balkins name from the google doc and added the note. Figured it would draw too much attention. Someone else might have added the it since then thou.

Oh architecturemetoo no worries! I saw RBA's name on there and immediately had visions of the Archinect commentariat polluting the entire spreadsheet with entries like "Professor Thrusty McThrusterson FAIA told me my model-building skills weren't good enough for the Ivies then to prove it knocked my model off the table with his dick. It broke." There's a time and place for dick jokes and that spreadsheet is NOT it (PS I definitely include myself as one of the commentariat but I usually know when to be jokey and when not).

RobG, I totally agree that this method has problems. But I also think that structural reform efforts have more strength behind them *if* more people realize that harassment and abuse, of both sexual and non-sexual types, are a deep structural flaw within our system of architecture education and practice.

...and, for someone of either gender who has experienced weird/toxic treatment from a specific person, and is floundering in self-doubt wondering if they imagined it or are making more of it than they should (which is extremely common among harassment victims!), to see with that specific person's name a similar story that reinforces their own experience helps every victim analyze their own experience in more light. I take everything I read on this list about people I don't know personally with a huge grain of salt but the names and actions I recognize or have firsthand experience with I now feel more confident in condemning if called upon to do so.

this is not mcarthyism. that was political. this is more like people without an outlet searching for some sort of help or some sort of hope. you're right that this method is problematic, but for the time being it's all there is. it's either this, or structural reform to make the problem go away.

i don't dislike anonymous lists. i dislike secret anonymous lists. apparently we're now in the stage where vigorous pr scrubbing has started to occur, but there is no transparency, no accountability, no concern for victims. i mean, fuck the victims, am i right? we have careers and reputations to preserve! fucking god forbid a link gets posted! perish the thought that everyone, not the privileged few, could have the opportunity to have their experience validated, supported, and 'made real'. i know architects are cowards but somehow i'm still surprised when i see it validated.

The creator of this list left no ambiguity that she had no concern for the validity of the accusations or by extension their repercussions. Punishing people without regard for guilt or innocence has nothing to do with justice. It is an attack on an enemy. It is dehumanizing to The Other. I’m disappointed that this is where we are. I understand that accusing someone on an anonymous, publicly circulated list doesn’t carry the same punishment as accusing someone in the legal system, but there is also no due process for the accused, or accountability for a false accuser. Neither of those are inconsequential.

I’m still in school, but it seems like many of the structural power imbalances in the entertainment industry are present in architecture as well, for what appear to be the same reasons. From what I can tell our industries make heroes of a privileged few whom are granted access to most of the most high profile and interesting jobs. In addition there are far more people with the requisite skill than opportunities to utilize those skills. I would wager that without addressing the factors that cause such power imbalances that we won’t make much progress on this issue. Perhaps a more productive conversation might be to start brainstorming ways that power imbalances are created, reinforced and what we can do to mitigate or eliminate them.

A few people seem to think that the most reasonable way to engage the list is to treat the accusations with skepticism. I don’t see how that is progress by any metric. We can either focus our outrage on individuals based on unsubstantiated anonymous claims or we can doubt the accuser. No thanks. I won’t indulge in your list.

The "creators", creators of the list. Plural.

Citations. Citations. Citations. If these things against men are just as rampant, then you should have no problem bringing us evidence. You saying it happened means nothing, but then again most of what ramble on about, means nothing.

Right, then there's this:

Balkins: "Not one single woman was EVER publically condemned for sexual harassing of men yet there are women who have done that and court cases."

You're infinitely worse than any anonymous accuser. You're someone that feigns knowledge of something, and then has no evidence to back their claims. Plus you hate women.

"One man to another - i will blackmail you with your own behavior. ..." what does this mean? I seriously don't understand.

Huh?

Are you suggesting that this is an old white guy phenomena? It’s not.

I've noticed a local name on the list, and while I've heard he's likely to have been an abuser/misogynist, I just don't have a real accounting of what he's done.

the burden of the first-hand account is almost excruciating. part of the purpose of the list could be to see that there may be the opportunity for people to support each other and work together in speaking up more formally.

Can you help me understand that?

Trying to imagine circumstances:  I assume that's because some women would still be in the situation they want to describe? Because if the circumstances are recognized, there could be retribution?

Those conditions I understand but, barring that, first-hand anonymous accounts would seem less problematic. More powerful than 'I heard...'

sure - so sometimes, someone doesn't want to be the first, because she might be reocgnizable, which could lead to retaliation. but throwing out there - "hey, this is someone who we've heard stuff about," only of course when they actually have heard stuff, it's a little bit of waving a flag that maybe looking over at this person would be a good idea. sometimes women might have experienced an incident but not think it's that big of a deal - seeing someone's name though - recognizing that others might have experienced something - that can start to change the internal dialogue.

Yes. Makes sense. Thank you. 

With all of the publications with women editors whose sole purpose in life is to expose sexual harassment, i don't get the need to publish (cowardly) burn books. Just go to any publication!

Chemex, refer to archanonymous' featured comment at the top of this thread for a link to The Architecture Lobby's attempt to highlight *good* firms to work at. And the AIA's Firm Awards tend to also go to places that treat the whole firm as valued team members - as humans - and make good architecture, too.

Blaming that 100% on inequality is not accurate. Studies have shown that even in countries where equality is extremely vetted, like Scandinavian nations, men and women gravitate towards different professions...this is rooted in different interests...not abilities...Again, (I posted links in the other thread) a 50/50 even outcome is a poor metric. Things are more complicated than you are making them seem. If you view the entire world as a power struggle, like the post modernists, then you are really leaving out a huge chunk of the puzzle and being a bit disingenuous. We can’t have a discussion about male and female interactions without talking about science...Evolutionary biology, psychology, etc...Sure sociology is a part of it, but it’s a very very complex and nuanced issue, and even sociology is rooted in biology. The problem with these debates is that people reduce them down to the point where it just puts everyone against each other.

Stats alone are not evidence. Why no scientific studies about this? Or maybe there are?

And also don’t overlook the idea that they just may really be smarter...and have realized that architecture is a shitty profession.

It is nice to finally see architecure in the news again. “We don’t care about you silly architects ..... wait, what was that you said about sexual harassment? That goes perfectly with our anti-design narrative....

Also, if you see a guy who lectures and has teaching positions at a large number of schools in spite of a practice, that pretty much a dead giveaway. I told you [a certain architect] was bad, didn’t I? Otherwise, I don’t need a list to tell me who is creepy and who to avoid... it was always obvious, wasn’t it?

you mean we have a constitution and laws that give these women freedom of speech to produce this document and freedom of press to disseminate it?

yeah that was v bad

Women evolved that way because the cost/risk of sex is high for them.

You can’t even talk about well established science anymore without getting read the riot act.

when somebody shows how stupid they are, just let them.

Tintt I try, and I try, and I try and then I finally get fed up. And it's Sunday morning so it's not like I can even blame alcohol for losing my cool LOL! But you're right of course. I'm taking a quick break.

"Listen before you speak. Your experience is not everyone's experience and is not the only legitimate experience that exists. Listen before you speak. Be willing to shut up and learn for a change. FFS."

Telling people to shut up, just because they're a guy...sorry I don't get that, silencing people, especially in this debate, only because of someone's gender...maybe reread these words Your experience is not everyone's experience and is not the only legitimate experience that exists. That goes both ways!

Usually it goes something like this...

randomized, I think the point is that there really isn't a debate here. What is there to debate? Are you guys seriously suggesting that there is a grey area in this topic? We aren't discussing some theoretical topic in school, women are sharing their direct and often horrifying experiences and calling out names. The only thing we should be doing as men is supporting this process and getting the local authorities to handle the perpetrators. My personal pet peev is how so many men are responding with some sort of "Well that's not how I recall it, huhu, but I apologize if she took it that way."

To mansplain the situation, as a married man, if you do something to someone that they didn't want, and that act would cause me to punch you in the face if you tried it on my wife, you went too far. 

I don't like to be told to shut up and listen, that's what generations of men told women and is part of the problem...don't you see the irony in that?

LOL well done, Tintt.

Oh, you were kidding? I didn't get that.

You've been watching too many Michael Douglas flicks. I'm guessing you think Disclosure happened to you as well?

Hey pete, I haven't put together what exactly you are talking about but I'm really sorry for whatever you've been through. People hurting and using each other is something I wish I could do away with.

I’d hope series accusations go to the media, and hope the more grey area offenders aren’t invited to universities or profiled anymore in media

Serious

You know nothing.

I've personally had "conversations" with some of these victims, you literally have zero clue. 16 confirming stories against one of the biggest architects in the profession? Fuggedaboutit. You and I both know, if your daughter ever reported to you one incident of unwanted touching, jersey boots would be the next thing around the offender's feet. So GTFO.

That's not true and you know it. Of course the sheet itself takes one person to start, and share, but the listing of the numbers proves that statement is disingenuous at best. As for the content. It's Shitty Architecture Men. I'll agree with this, what is toxic to one, may not be toxic to all, but why did love of Jesus can we not agree second hand douchebaggery is toxic for everyone in the environment.

I think any reasonable person can agree that working hard and sexual harassment or rape is not the same. Why would that mean the answer is to discredit it all? If in fact you are a victim, Pete, you should know how it feels to be victimized and you should want to support victims, no? Sure there are things on the list to sort out or that didn't belong. So sort them out, dont need to throw it all out.

Do the "hard work" of sorting it out.

Everything is patriarchy! Who comes up with this shit. Women abusing children is not caused by patriarchy...that is the most absurd argument of all time.

god it’s just so hard to be you, isn’t it

This sjw thing is a mental disease. Really.

Pbts what does that have to do with anything? Blaming everything on the patriarchy, but convieniently only the “western” patriarchy...when in fact the west is like 1000x more just and free for women. FOH. It’s clear that there is a hidden agenda riding on the back of this issue along with others.

I’ll leave it at this Pete....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1agIlLlhg

like watching a cult of mental midgets.

Leave to two ass clowns. You snowflakes really are having a hard time with the reality; white male hegemony is coming to an end, and toxic masculinity is responsible. Suck it up buttercups, you're symptoms, not causes.

The Bret Weinstein incident in case you didn’t know. This is the kind of madness happening in universities.

But, hey blame the patriarchy...take zero responsibility for your actions...see “martyr complex”

Thanks Pete!

Postpartum and Patriarchy

https://www.buzzfeed.com/pooja...

Pete...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/opinion/when-the-left-turns-on-its-own.amp.html

That’s what happens with the sjw madness being spread.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.livescience.com/1518-female-chimps-kill-infants.html

Like I said...it’s complicated

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4209931/

The neo-marxists in the humanities departments want you to think it’s simple...because they are pushing pseudoscience and pimping nimble minded students...

Actually, they aren’t even pushing pseudoscience...that gives them too much credit... they are just pushing biased opinions...

One example...I argued with a sociology professor in front of like 100 students in a lecture...she was trying to say that gender is 100% social construct...even had test questions that to get correct, one would have

Comply with that narrative...which is false and very well understood by real scientists.

And Ironically, women like the strong and successful men...it can be argued (don’t have the time to do it justice now) that women prop up the patriarchy by desiring partners whom are successful...Men do what they do to attract females...this is the case with all mammals...females select the fittest, and men struggle to be the fittest...it’s why Donna dreams about Brad Pitt rather than Brad Shmitt from 7-11...A little introspection and understanding of why these structures exist on a basic biological level is a good starting point...but the sjws can’t have a serious in depth debate without going nuts and labeling anyone who dares ask the hard questions as sexist, racist, etc...Simultaneously we have movies like 50 shades that you pointed out...and a total lack of outrage over some of the most oppressive regimes towards women like Saudi Arabia, Quatar, etc...Not a mention of firms who work in these areas...where is the list of countries that have abominable human and women’s rights violations...why not
boycott them?crickets.

We aren’t in the jungle anymore, so we can to a degree circumvent our biology...but we have to be honest and understand this stuff first. To simply blame it all on the “patriarchy” is a very narrow and dishonest approach. Women have had far more power in shaping society, since the beginning, than they like to admit. And yes, matriarchal societies have existed...powerful female leaders have too. Some have even been quite brutal.

Don’t want that last part to get misconstrued...it is a fact that males are far more violent and aggressive...fact...but that’s not to say that women aren’t playing a part in that system...

The idea that we have been clobbering women over the head and dragging them around for the last million years is simply not true. It’s been mostly a cooperative effort towards survival. This idea that men and women are rivals and have been in a power struggle since the dawn of time is foolish.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2018/02/20/feature/decades-worth-of-rape-kits-are-finally-being-tested-no-one-can-agree-on-what-to-do-next/?utm_term=.2c63f7af3a17

Wow. Yeah, have you seen the show on Netflix “cold justice sex crimes”. Two female detectives go to various towns police departments and try to solve rape cases on backlog...many from pre-dna era. I was shocked to see how many kits have been just sitting there. Check it out. Good show. Really scary to think how many people are out there who have done things and got away with it.

I'm hoping RB was nuked with it.

It is not sexual harassment to talk about waste receptacles or plumbing fixtures. But I know what you mean. The women in the offices I worked at talked about this once, that none of the males would spec sanitary napkin disposals so we decided it was out job and we would go into projects that we weren't even on to sneak them in. Never brought it up to the guys, just did it.

Thanks Tintt. I actually do most of the spec for the accessories and I draw up careful elevations so that the devices appear functional and rational eventhough I have no practical experience with them. It's another thing when I have to talk about security if a designer is foolish enough to place the women's washroom at the end of a corridor and past the men's room. How do you explain... well, in the event that someone wants to attack, placing the women's room closer to the atrium gives them a better chance at escape... or have to remind people that you could unknowingly design places that could lead to uncomfortable situations. See that balcony, if you don't put opaque film, all the men will be waiting to catch a free upskirt shot. eugh. oh and yes, don't pay any attention that I am also a man.

Sweet Jesus. Women have periods? What? You mean they need places to put pads? No way? Psst....guess what? We're even putting changing tables in Men's rooms!

^I don't think you understood what I was getting at there.

Non, I do, if you approach the conversation like an adult, not as 16 year old kid, then these questions are matters of fact, and have nothing to do with what ever you think it does.

Biological function, is not sexual function.

There was more to it that simple accessories thou as per the follow-up paragraph. Still not within the harassment specter, but curious to see what others consider evasive.

I think you do what we all do; consider the audience, and modify speech accordingly. Treat people like their adults, and don't talk about the coefficient of friction of stripper poles with your priest.

if you overcome the uneasiness, i think it becomes pretty easy. pretty soon you'll be walking the girls into the mens room and have them lead you into the women's room so you can talk about why you should keep toilet partitions 12" off the ground (not 305mm).
aside from that, 'mirroring' in psychology is where you subconsciously imitate the behavior of the person you're interacting with.  so if you make them nervous talking about toilets and such, it's quite possible you can become nervous as well.

but we specify partitions at 305mm AFF... unless it's at 205 for the nice models. The custodians don't automatically get better thou. Where were we going with this?

Partitions should go all the way from ceiling to the floor and made of nice strong material, preferably with tiles glued to it...those partitions where you can see and hear people s(h)sitting are freakin cheap and disgusting, ugh...

Would you have a separate floor drain in each stall then? Are you going to break all that for tile to accommodate the slope to the drain? Crazy.

curt, you can put a slot at the base of the wall. The partitions for an air I worked on were essentially stud walls. Although it's pricey af.

^Right? If the client demands it, we just spec high-privacy stalls. They have no peek gaps and are 4" AFF. It's a pain to mop the floors thou so most building owners don't want them.

How are proper walls a pain in the ass to keep clean in bathrooms? Don't you have those at home, how's that working? Or do people not know how to properly use a toilet and shit all over the walls in American offices?

First Rando, I'm Canadian. Those shelves are for Tim Horton cups, not pistols. Second and from my experience, the custodian's union tends to have a say in washroom dividers and accessories when it comes to large office buildings and federal tenants. Far easier to mop under everything in one swoop than go in each stall. Cost also functions in too. We do hardwall and tile partitions between showers thou. I'd like to consider hardwalls, but you gota pick your battles.

Have you ever taken a dump at Newark Airport?

I thought the space between the bottom of stall partition and the floor was to see if anybody was slumped over (heart attack) or in other trouble (being raped).

random, you should know this about Americans; we're filthy animals.

I would suggest we reference 604.9.5.1 of 2009 ICC A117.1 as well. https://cdn-codes.iccsafe.org/bundles/document/new_document_images/559/Fig_604.9.5.jpg

curt, the airport restrooms i've worked on had separate ada toilet rooms.

I've never seen that before Curt. We just require our handicap stalls to be 1600w x 2060d at the minimum (also, in mm) just enough space for a 1525 dia turning space without hitting anything.

ANSI is scoped in the IBC. Canada still uses that as a model code don't they? Beta, I like the idea of separate accessible rooms, which are also good for taking a little kid into the restroom, assisting old or disabled people, transgender people or those who might not be comfortable in a public restroom environment, etc. It eats leasable square footage though, which a lot of developers don't care for.

curt, in fact, they have those too.

Curt, Canada has it's own national building code as well as a separate accessibility code (CSA B651-12). Since I practice in Ontario, I have a 3rd code (OBC) which takes precedence. That toe-clearance under stall partition in your example is not something I've ever come across. We also now require separate Universal washrooms in addition to the typical handicap spaces. These large rooms need to accommodate nursing stations (adult change tables) and stretchers... and we have our own UL stuff too. Try explaining that to a contractor.

Non, that wasn't meant for you, I know you're Canadian, everybody knows that :) it was meant just more in general and somehow I used your words subconsciously, while not even typing it in the reply box.