An artist had nothing to do with the actual designing of the theater itself. No floor plans. It was even dimensionally out of scale.
Del Corbett doesn't design buildings. It's not his education or background. He designs theater plays. It's like a movie director/writer voice in set design. Dr. Del Corbett provided input from that end as he was one of the originators of "Shanghaied in Astoria".
He did. But he also said it was 65 seats, 120 seats, 167 seats, and 200 seats. Apparently it expands and contracts to fit any audience. No wonder it's so hard to measure - the bricks are made of bubblegum. He never did explain where the caterers and all their serving and clearing fit.
Since when is designing buildings your education and background either? A GED and an AutoCAD certificate give you a background in architecture?
May 4, 16 9:21 pm ·
·
Yes. Design wise, I had actually design to support more than 150 as audience seating. 150 is a fudgy number as that comes down to configuration of tables / chairs arrangement and so forth.
150 is a safe number so to speak from the design intent.
I don't know anything about the Clatskanie newspaper but it could be an error in trimming the article down. I wasn't particular newsworthy enough to mention. Oh well, doesn't hurt my feelings. As for Jonni Taylor, she did a promotional artistic illustration. Obviously, would not work with the actual building as it was. It was more "eye-candy" promotional stuff without any measurements from me.
"I am sure this is more about irritating me and consuming my time on this thread (than the others) than it is about necessarily the project."
No, Balkans, this is about you FINALLY providing links to a project and the eventual realization that you actually had nothing to do with the project. I doubt anyone would care except that you're a cancer that provides terrible advice in almost every post.
I walk away from this thread to feed my kangaroo and I come back to this mess.
Balkins, your head is so far up your ass it's coming out your mouth like in Alien.
Are you trying to cover up someone else's mistakes? Is that what this is about? Are you in love with whoever let this POS get built?
May 5, 16 12:27 am ·
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no_form,
I was the designer. While other people had done some things like making artist illustrations (Jonni Taylor) that has nothing to do with the actual building or work inside. While Dr. Del Corbett's provided input as you expect someone from any theater company to provide input that shapes design decisions.
However, it didn't help when pre-CD drawings were submitted to the building department. In those drawings, I didn't have title blocks on them. I was leaving room for written notes to be put on the sheet for legibility sake. While I was involved throughout the construction phase, I wasn't there every day throughout.
As the design professional, I must assume at least some of the responsibility for the outcome. I am not the sole responsible party. I'll accept that much. As for sq.ft. and height, lets not bring OBAE into this at this time as it would be a waste of their time to be looking at a building if it turns out to be exempt on both ground area and height rule.
There is some stuff I will be talking to the building official over that came to my attention which I would have got on their butt about had I been told the truth about certain things.
I wasn't getting on their butts about the sprinklers because I didn't design the sprinklers and that was the engineer and when sprinklers were beginning to be installed, only some of the stage surface had the OSB panels installed. It didn't have all of it. I wasn't there throughout the sprinkler installation. At that time, I also had other project work going on so I didn't go out there all the time.
If you look at the top of the roof, see that silvery metal looking thing. There is three of them. One in front installed in the opening of an old vent thing. The middle one along the truss near the ridge was installed in the area of the former opening which had the chimney. The third one was installed in the third opening exposed when another old vent was removed. This third one was mounted on the rear hip roof part. That is OVER the stage.
I didn't have the mechanical plans to look at either. From what it appears resembles some kind of centrifugal roof exhaust fans. (I couldn't tell you if it is really a down draft or "exhaust". From my experience, a few times at the theater as an attendee ( which doesn't mean I get to walk around all over the theater ), it seems to me to be an exhaust.
May 5, 16 1:19 am ·
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I know there is three of these because when I went there a couple days ago, I noticed them on the roof.
Balkins, how could they get a permit with an incomplete set? How could you not have coordinated with your consultants? It makes no sense.
May 5, 16 1:58 am ·
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no_form,
Regarding question #1, I have no idea how they got the permit from an incomplete set but I believe it was utilizing phased approval process. Regarding question #2, the engineers were contracted directly by the client.
Occupant loads are not "fudgy", Rick. It's pretty damn straightforward. Open that code you supposedly know so well. Turn to table 1004. Pick one of the three "Assembly without fixed seats" options. Look down a bit, find the "stages and platforms". There is nothing fudgy about it.
Rick yes those are roof exhausts. Which are not the same thing as smoke vents. Do you understand the difference?
I thought you were a "building designer" with hundreds of credits of related education and years of experience and self-study. What did you actually learn?
Also I've seen 3 or 4 people ask in this thread about how the dinner theater caterers and all their equipment fit in this place along with the audience, furniture, stage, cast and crew, snack bar, lighting booth, box office staff, souvenir stand, etc., without blocking the egress routes but you never seem to answer that. Some of those rolling racks and coolers and such that caterers use are 30" square and you're saying you have 40" aisles. Please diagram where the caterers and all their stuff fit in this plan.
Occupant loads are not "fudgy", Rick. It's pretty damn straightforward. Open that code you supposedly know so well. Turn to table 1004. Pick one of the three "Assembly without fixed seats" options. Look down a bit, find the "stages and platforms". There is nothing fudgy about it.
That is exactly what I did for the seating area. For 3000 sq.ft. area of the CMU building, it's 200 people. The backstage area in the back is 3 rooms.
For the backstage, we were using Unconcentrated being that the rooms within the backstage area would have tables and chairs and other stuff in the rooms like 'cabinets' and so forth would reduce the raw interior dimensions of the backstage. Lets also take into account that the raw area of the "backstage" (1980s addition) interior side is about 21' x 43'. Subpartitioning that area into smaller rooms subtracts the sq.ft. when you account for framing. The Unisex restroom in the backstage area would have 1 occupant in it in general.
The interior dimensions of the costume room and the men and women dressing room are approx.:
approximately 650 sq.ft.
Assuming unconcentrated rooms spaces, that's assuming 15 sq.ft. per person.
That calls for 43.333 occupants (44 with round up. The bathroom typically has 1 occupant as it's a unisex bathroom with one toilet. That's about 45 people. There is room for about 4 more people in the design.
The hallway is not a lobby area. It is not suppose to have people just standing there. The egress is for serving the people in the rooms to egress to the stage itself or to the exit. There's only approximately 195 sq.ft. of hallway egress. Required egress width by occupant count would be 9.8 inches BUT other provisions of code raises that up to 36" for egress and exits serving an area with occupant loads of 49 and less. That would be 36" to the egress. So even then the egress is not for loitering or just standing there. They would just go to the stage area behind the backdrop area or the wings (to the side of the performance area of the stage).
The total number of performers and makeup artists for any one performance at a time was not to exceed 49. If they do, they would need a separate egress for some of those rooms or each of them. Such as the costume room on the far east side of the backstage.
As a matter of fact, I was looking to incorporate it, anyway. As it stands at this time, it is still viable. The window in the costume room on the north face of the addition (yeah, the 15 linear feet of it), I would replace with an exit door and move the window to the east side of the room and just a little rearranging of some stuff in the room as needed. I would have room for a 60" turn radius and immediate access to the parking lot egress aisle which would allow people to egress away from the building to a public right of way.
If they do operate more than 49 people in the backstage area (1980s era building), I would propose they add a second egress where there is currently a window in the room on the far east end of the back stage. I would be talking to the B.O. about that when he's in town.
"Egress is not for loitering or just standing there"
Rick you have to count that area too in your occupant counts - it's 100 sf per person in this situation. Even storage closets and mechanical spaces have to be added up and the occupant count is 1 per 300 sf (if the total is under 300 then you count that as 1 occupant).
For your seating area you should use 7 sf per person - not 15 - because you know they're not going to have the tables and chairs set up all the time.
And what about the space for all the catering equipment, temporary trash barrels & silverware & plate bins, etc.?
Bringing it back to Rick's original post. Knowing how to read code to determine occupancy and egress requirements would make an excellent question for a PBD.
May 5, 16 2:25 pm ·
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Threesleeve,
There's no dinner/diner caterers stuff that I am aware of. There isn't really any "dinner" that I am aware of. If there are deviation from what was originally part of the discussions then perhaps there is something to talk about.
Rick yes those are roof exhausts. Which are not the same thing as smoke vents. Do you understand the difference?
I thought you were a "building designer" with hundreds of credits of related education and years of experience and self-study. What did you actually learn?
What exactly does the code require? There is also 3 ridge vents other than those mechanical exhausts.
In any case, there's 3 exhaust ventilation (mechanical ventilation) and 3 rather standard roof ridge vents. That's in the main CMU portion of the building.
I don't know the make and model. That would be on the mechanical engineer's plans.
The code specifically requires a stage to have a minimum of two smoke vents. I believe someone else posted the language at some point in this thread. These are vents that open both manually, and by a fusible link (it fuses at a certain temperature, which triggers the vent to open in the event of fire). Usually these are also tied to the fire alarm system and/or trigger the fire and smoke alarms. These things have nothing to do with exhaust vents, or with ridge vents (which have nothing to do with each other by the way).
Of course there is catering and dinner. It's dinner theater. All the flyers about the dinner-time shows mention the steak house that prepares and serves the dinner.
You cannot possibly not have known that - you keep saying you designed the stage-viewing and made your occupant calcs based on tables and chairs seating - what did you think the tables were for? It's unbelievably, criminally irresponsible of you to have not designed this with anywhere for that equipment to go except in the egress routes.
Sheullmi, that's a really good point. A lot of the conversation with Rick in this thread is the type of conversation that one has with inexperienced interns, in which they learn how to calculate occupant counts, how to read codes, how to look up UL assemblies, why we have to assume that there are people both in the hallways and in the audience at the same time, what are standpipes, what do they look like, what's a smoke vent, where can we let the electrical engineer locate the main panel, etc. - but they learn these things early in their career, while Rick has gotten a decade into his without picking up on these things.
"Egress is not for loitering or just standing there"
Rick you have to count that area too in your occupant counts - it's 100 sf per person in this situation. Even storage closets and mechanical spaces have to be added up and the occupant count is 1 per 300 sf (if the total is under 300 then you count that as 1 occupant).
For your seating area you should use 7 sf per person - not 15 - because you know they're not going to have the tables and chairs set up all the time.
And what about the space for all the catering equipment, temporary trash barrels & silverware & plate bins, etc.?
We are talking about the backstage area, right?
Counting for storage closets would reduce the occupant load count of those rooms because I counted the raw interior dimensions of those rooms at 15 sq.ft. per person. There is a fixed geometry of the backstage area as well as the rooms. The egress would add 2 to the occupant load of the backstage area occupant. The bathroom would be 1-2 people.
All that and I'd be running around 48-49. Since some percentage of that number would be on stage from time to time, it would be less but let's throw it into to the whole building occupant load.
For the seating audience area even at 5 sq.ft. per person for 3000 sq.ft theater room (CMU building, You need to deduct for the stage which is around 773.33333333333333333333 sq.ft. give or take a little. So give about 780 sq.ft. That puts the total stage platform occupant load to 52 people. Since it isn't separate from the audience area exactly. It can go into the occupant count for the egress.
Since you need to count at least 8-ft. of egress and a 5 to 6 ft wide egress area behind the seating area between the snack bar and souvenir "corner" and the egress out the north exit. Lets not forget the 4'-5' of space between the stage and the front row of seating. (Remember egress would be that 1 per sq.ft.). Lets subtract 8" from the interior dimensions (east-west axis) for the pilasters bricks. That's 38' before subtracting 8 to 10-ft. for the egress. Using rough measurements, 882-inches north south. That's 73.5 without subtracting for stage and egresses/aisles along the east/west connecting to the north/south egresses.
Let's say we got a 31-32' N/S axis seating area. Along the east/west, we have 30-ft. So 30-ft. x 32'. That's 960 sq.ft. That's 138 rounded up. Lets add the stage of 52 from the number just above. That's 190 people. Lets assume with the sq.ft. area of the egresses in the audience area that we are around 10 additional people. (200 people.). The booths obviously won't have this much but lets count the front 15x38 at 7 sq.ft. per person. That's 81 people. So 281. Required egress is 56.2".
Door width/exits have a combined width of 78". Egresses are typically a combined width of 9' to 10' Usually 5-ft.to 5'-4" on the east side. 4' to 4'-4" on the west side.
There is only about 960 to maybe 1000 sq.ft. of seating area minus stage, egresses, and some accessory areas in the theater room. So even pushing it to 1000 sq.ft., you got 142 plus the other numbers and you're around 285 + 49 (backstage) = 334.
We are running still with an egress requirement of 66.8" and that's also including door. We have 3 exits in the whole building. Code requires only 2.
I could propose for 2 more exits on the existing building with either an addition or nearby detached structure on site with bathrooms and ticket booth / office. 1 of those exits from the Costume room in the backstage directly out. The other being on the NW corner of the CMU structure for an entrance|exit for the people operating the lights by re-opening that section of the building and egress to sidewalk.
May 5, 16 4:01 pm ·
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Threesleeve,
There wasn't things like steak and such being proposed or presented to me by the client at the time. We were looking at the Shanghai in Astoria program at the time. There was no steak or other such offerings. It was just the popcorn and the sodas or beer.
This was probably a programmatic addition that happened since opening. The project program had no discussion of catering services.
May 5, 16 4:05 pm ·
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senjohnblutarsky,
There are alternative methods for smoke control/ventilation besides passive ventilation for smoke. There is Mechanical methods.
Go to page 6 on this. I can't tell you off hand if the unit up there is like this one with Smoke Control Option. There is three of them. That would be excessive for this building just for standard ventilation. I'm guessing it has something to do with meeting smoke control & ventilation.
That alternative doesn't meet code for smoke vents for stages - the vents have to work manually so that if the power is out they still work.
So you're claiming they told you they were only going to serve popcorn, soda and such, but told you to assume the seating would be at tables? Any real design professional would understand the implications of that. Again, what did you think the tables were for? A theater is not going to sacrifice all that potential audience seating area for tables if they're only serving movie theater type snack food. Remember how you said in the edgeless pool thread that we can't just design to code - we have to anticipate what someone will do? It was pretty obvious what they were going to do here as soon as they told you they wanted tables - so it was your duty as a design professional to connect the dots and understand that you'd better design room for equipment and catering staff such that they wouldn't be blocking exits.
You mentioned something above about there being a unisex bathroom in the building. Did that really get built, or is that another thing where you're not sure? The articles about the new design say there are no bathrooms at all and the portapotties are the only toilets for audience, staff, and actors.
May 5, 16 4:32 pm ·
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no_form,
I couldn't tell you of hand because the engineers drawings never came to me to be reviewed or coordinated. When the clients were directly contracting the engineers, the engineers weren't sending their drawings to me. They were sending them to the client (ASOC). I don't have mechanical plans themselves. They aren't even in the permit file except the sprinklers but the sprinklers made some vague reference to.
Is it that hard to figure out. Add to that, it also appeared to me that the clients wasn't being all that truthful with me.
Threesleeve,
The snack bar is about 10' deep. Popcorn and beer and soda is already done at the snack bar. The work surface is maybe 2-ft. to 2.5' and in some case, 3'. If they have steak and all that at SPECIAL SHOWS and all. They reduce seating capacity to make room for it all.
How hard is that to think about. Not all programs seat that many people. When they have special catering, the seating is reduced or the number of tables are reduced. Normally, a hotdog that is heated in a warmer and the small bag of chips isn't an issue. It's already handled in the space. As for special catering beyond that, it's probably at a special show event seating less people like 60-70 people.
I've never seen steak offered during Shanghaied in Astoria main program.
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter how big the snack bar is. The point is, if the owner were really intending only to serve those types of snacks, they never would have asked you to plan the primary seating set up to be tables and chairs. They wouldn't have done that because tables are totally unnecessary for those snack items - so if they had truly only been planning to serve those snacks then they would have told you to plan the design around rows of seating. The fact that you were asked to design around tables and chairs (which you keep saying is what you based your occupant totals on) means that the theater was already planning, way back then, to serve dinner. You should have realized that and based the design on that scenario. A place that serves meals, even if doesn't prepare them, has different plumbing count requirements and different electrical requirements than a place that only serves snacks.
Has anybody reported this yet to the board of health?
May 5, 16 5:10 pm ·
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I saw the room framed. The insulation installed. The plumbing that we had to run a new pipe across the middle of the floor. There's basically 4 rooms. One of them being a small room only big enough for a restroom. It was called for even in schematic design. In order to even have porta potties, they had to at least have one permanent restroom installed. There is even a permit for it as well as there was a bathroom exhaust fan installed. There was a permit for it as well.
Part of the reason the egress hallway 'snakes' a little bit was so there would be an ADA compliant Unisex bathroom.
It was clear at the time, to properly do up permanent restrooms for the entire seating audience, there would need to be an addition or separate building with the bathrooms with sufficient toilet facilities including an ADA stall for each gender (or an ADA unisex room) for the main audience. The idea for the porta potties was to get by for one season of Shanghai in Astoria and then move forward to get the rest of that done. One bathroom was installed.
May 5, 16 5:18 pm ·
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Threesleeve,
The tables were brought over from the previous location. At least the rectangular ones. Since then, they got new tables.
They didn't even started doing any of the catering stuff until after the project was completed.
They spent some good decade plus using the rectangular tables and chairs at previous locations with just popcorn, soda, hotdog and a bag of chips.
They didn't have these additional catering.
May 5, 16 5:23 pm ·
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Threesleeve,
How can I assume they would be doing full dinners? Even if they did, they would just reduce the number of tables and seating for audience. That's designing by assumptions of what they MIGHT possibly ever do in the future. Hell man, lets plan for every possible future application of the building for the next 4 BILLION YEARS while we are at it.
robots will never replace architects, Balkins is living proof!
May 5, 16 5:57 pm ·
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nicholass817,
As this is part of a multi-phase project, the portable restrooms were for temporary use during shows and as such it was intended to be only for the summer. For whatever reason, they been running extensions on the issue. The reason I didn't design an addition for it would be that I wasn't going to flat out violate the licensing laws. An attached addition was something that I told them to hire an architect for.
The portable restrooms was a provision the building official authorized as a temporary plan.
It doesn't remove the requirement of bathrooms. It was something that was to be done in two phases. Portable restrooms was to be a temporary solution. In fact, they are suppose to have permanent restrooms before going full-year operation.
balkans, there is no we. it was they. you didn't do this project. maybe you stood around watching them build it and offered up your two cents when they were eating their lunch, but ultimately, you had nothing to do with the drawings, permitting, or construction of this theater.
but the one result of this 16 page conversation is that you're learning about how to actually design a theater and what mistakes were made by the licensed GC who did this work.
now, by no means should you go out and design a theater based on what you've learned in this thread. you're not an architect. you're a guy who likes drafting, old computers, and transvestites apparently. which is fine, but you've no business designing buildings.
maybe you should take a trip to the outback, check out some kangaroos, have a Fosters and enjoy your life. if you keep at it with being a "PBD" you're going to end up broke and potentially in jail.
you do realize Richard Balkins Building Designer that you are the idiot and moron here.
May 5, 16 7:18 pm ·
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Olaf,
For arguing with you morons, yes, I am an idiot and moron. It doesn't matter if I am right, you guys would argue against me anyway and do this annoying shit. So arguing with you idiots that are just arguing with me to just be arguing is just to annoy me.
I've just exhausted arguing this with you guys and where there are issues, I'll be addressing it with the people that matters such as with the building official not debating the issues on the forum.
CPBD exam specifications under review by NCBDC.
An artist had nothing to do with the actual designing of the theater itself. No floor plans. It was even dimensionally out of scale.
Del Corbett doesn't design buildings. It's not his education or background. He designs theater plays. It's like a movie director/writer voice in set design. Dr. Del Corbett provided input from that end as he was one of the originators of "Shanghaied in Astoria".
He did. But he also said it was 65 seats, 120 seats, 167 seats, and 200 seats. Apparently it expands and contracts to fit any audience. No wonder it's so hard to measure - the bricks are made of bubblegum. He never did explain where the caterers and all their serving and clearing fit.
Since when is designing buildings your education and background either? A GED and an AutoCAD certificate give you a background in architecture?
Yes. Design wise, I had actually design to support more than 150 as audience seating. 150 is a fudgy number as that comes down to configuration of tables / chairs arrangement and so forth.
150 is a safe number so to speak from the design intent.
Interesting. In this one Rick doesn't even get a mention: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1028&dat=20071011&id=vvoyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7BAGAAAAIBAJ&pg=3584,2563387&hl=en
JBeaumont,
There is different seating arrangements and capacities based on what programs.
The exits on the east side is 42" wide. That exit is for occupant load of 210. The exit on north side is 36" wide for occupant load up to 180.
3 exits are required when there is 501+ occupant load.
The design occupant load is for less people than that from a practical point of view.
210 + 180 is 390.
I recommended not seating more than 150 people for it can get awfully tight.
150 seating was a benchmark criteria for the design.
Interesting. In this one Rick doesn't even get a mention: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1028&dat=20071011&id=vvoyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7BAGAAAAIBAJ&pg=3584,2563387&hl=en
I don't know anything about the Clatskanie newspaper but it could be an error in trimming the article down. I wasn't particular newsworthy enough to mention. Oh well, doesn't hurt my feelings. As for Jonni Taylor, she did a promotional artistic illustration. Obviously, would not work with the actual building as it was. It was more "eye-candy" promotional stuff without any measurements from me.
"I am sure this is more about irritating me and consuming my time on this thread (than the others) than it is about necessarily the project."
No, Balkans, this is about you FINALLY providing links to a project and the eventual realization that you actually had nothing to do with the project. I doubt anyone would care except that you're a cancer that provides terrible advice in almost every post.
your houzz profile says it all:
Josh,
So what. It's a photo taken from my Android tablet.
Dangermouse,
The DailyAstorian article properly indicated I was involved. Where do you think they got the information from?
Balkins, your head is so far up your ass it's coming out your mouth like in Alien.
Are you trying to cover up someone else's mistakes? Is that what this is about? Are you in love with whoever let this POS get built?
no_form,
I was the designer. While other people had done some things like making artist illustrations (Jonni Taylor) that has nothing to do with the actual building or work inside. While Dr. Del Corbett's provided input as you expect someone from any theater company to provide input that shapes design decisions.
However, it didn't help when pre-CD drawings were submitted to the building department. In those drawings, I didn't have title blocks on them. I was leaving room for written notes to be put on the sheet for legibility sake. While I was involved throughout the construction phase, I wasn't there every day throughout.
As the design professional, I must assume at least some of the responsibility for the outcome. I am not the sole responsible party. I'll accept that much. As for sq.ft. and height, lets not bring OBAE into this at this time as it would be a waste of their time to be looking at a building if it turns out to be exempt on both ground area and height rule.
There is some stuff I will be talking to the building official over that came to my attention which I would have got on their butt about had I been told the truth about certain things.
I wasn't getting on their butts about the sprinklers because I didn't design the sprinklers and that was the engineer and when sprinklers were beginning to be installed, only some of the stage surface had the OSB panels installed. It didn't have all of it. I wasn't there throughout the sprinkler installation. At that time, I also had other project work going on so I didn't go out there all the time.
Just out of curiosity,
http://s32.postimg.org/ao70720dh/11817200_10153582353548678_1381255912738372296_n.jpg
If you look at the top of the roof, see that silvery metal looking thing. There is three of them. One in front installed in the opening of an old vent thing. The middle one along the truss near the ridge was installed in the area of the former opening which had the chimney. The third one was installed in the third opening exposed when another old vent was removed. This third one was mounted on the rear hip roof part. That is OVER the stage.
I didn't have the mechanical plans to look at either. From what it appears resembles some kind of centrifugal roof exhaust fans. (I couldn't tell you if it is really a down draft or "exhaust". From my experience, a few times at the theater as an attendee ( which doesn't mean I get to walk around all over the theater ), it seems to me to be an exhaust.
I know there is three of these because when I went there a couple days ago, I noticed them on the roof.
no_form,
Regarding question #1, I have no idea how they got the permit from an incomplete set but I believe it was utilizing phased approval process. Regarding question #2, the engineers were contracted directly by the client.
Occupant loads are not "fudgy", Rick. It's pretty damn straightforward. Open that code you supposedly know so well. Turn to table 1004. Pick one of the three "Assembly without fixed seats" options. Look down a bit, find the "stages and platforms". There is nothing fudgy about it.
i'm starting a new band called balkan fire trap.
first track is called kangaroo.
Album name: Dr. RickB-OR How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bum.
second track: something fudgy.
Rick yes those are roof exhausts. Which are not the same thing as smoke vents. Do you understand the difference?
I thought you were a "building designer" with hundreds of credits of related education and years of experience and self-study. What did you actually learn?
Also I've seen 3 or 4 people ask in this thread about how the dinner theater caterers and all their equipment fit in this place along with the audience, furniture, stage, cast and crew, snack bar, lighting booth, box office staff, souvenir stand, etc., without blocking the egress routes but you never seem to answer that. Some of those rolling racks and coolers and such that caterers use are 30" square and you're saying you have 40" aisles. Please diagram where the caterers and all their stuff fit in this plan.
fudge
fəj/
noun
noun: fudge; plural noun: fudges
1.
a soft candy made from sugar, butter, and milk or cream.
North American
rich chocolate, used especially as a filling for cakes or a sauce on ice cream.
modifier noun: fudge
"chocolate cake filled with whipped cream and topped with hot fudge"
2.
an instance of faking or ambiguity.
"the new settlement is a fudge rushed out to win cheers at the conference"
archaic
nonsense.
3.
a piece of late news inserted in a newspaper page.
verb
verb: fudge; 3rd person present: fudges; past tense: fudged; past participle: fudged; gerund or present participle: fudging
1.
present or deal with (something) in a vague, noncommittal, or inadequate way, especially so as to conceal the truth or mislead.
"a temptation to fudge the issue and nudge grades up"
synonyms:evade, avoid, dodge, skirt, duck, gloss over; Morehedge on, prevaricate about, vacillate on, be noncommittal on, stall on, beat around the bush about, equivocate on, hem and haw on;
informalcop out on, sit on the fence about;
raretergiversate about
"the mayor tried to fudge the issue"
adjust or manipulate (facts or figures) so as to present a desired picture.
synonyms:adjust, manipulate, massage, put a spin on, juggle, misrepresent, misreport, bend; Moretamper with, tinker with, interfere with, doctor, falsify, distort;
informalcook, fiddle with
"the government has been fudging figures"
exclamation
dated
exclamation: fudge
1.
nonsense (expressing disbelief or annoyance).
Senjohnblutarsky,
Occupant loads are not "fudgy", Rick. It's pretty damn straightforward. Open that code you supposedly know so well. Turn to table 1004. Pick one of the three "Assembly without fixed seats" options. Look down a bit, find the "stages and platforms". There is nothing fudgy about it.
That is exactly what I did for the seating area. For 3000 sq.ft. area of the CMU building, it's 200 people. The backstage area in the back is 3 rooms.
For the backstage, we were using Unconcentrated being that the rooms within the backstage area would have tables and chairs and other stuff in the rooms like 'cabinets' and so forth would reduce the raw interior dimensions of the backstage. Lets also take into account that the raw area of the "backstage" (1980s addition) interior side is about 21' x 43'. Subpartitioning that area into smaller rooms subtracts the sq.ft. when you account for framing. The Unisex restroom in the backstage area would have 1 occupant in it in general.
The interior dimensions of the costume room and the men and women dressing room are approx.:
approximately 650 sq.ft.
Assuming unconcentrated rooms spaces, that's assuming 15 sq.ft. per person.
That calls for 43.333 occupants (44 with round up. The bathroom typically has 1 occupant as it's a unisex bathroom with one toilet. That's about 45 people. There is room for about 4 more people in the design.
The hallway is not a lobby area. It is not suppose to have people just standing there. The egress is for serving the people in the rooms to egress to the stage itself or to the exit. There's only approximately 195 sq.ft. of hallway egress. Required egress width by occupant count would be 9.8 inches BUT other provisions of code raises that up to 36" for egress and exits serving an area with occupant loads of 49 and less. That would be 36" to the egress. So even then the egress is not for loitering or just standing there. They would just go to the stage area behind the backdrop area or the wings (to the side of the performance area of the stage).
The total number of performers and makeup artists for any one performance at a time was not to exceed 49. If they do, they would need a separate egress for some of those rooms or each of them. Such as the costume room on the far east side of the backstage.
As a matter of fact, I was looking to incorporate it, anyway. As it stands at this time, it is still viable. The window in the costume room on the north face of the addition (yeah, the 15 linear feet of it), I would replace with an exit door and move the window to the east side of the room and just a little rearranging of some stuff in the room as needed. I would have room for a 60" turn radius and immediate access to the parking lot egress aisle which would allow people to egress away from the building to a public right of way.
If they do operate more than 49 people in the backstage area (1980s era building), I would propose they add a second egress where there is currently a window in the room on the far east end of the back stage. I would be talking to the B.O. about that when he's in town.
"Egress is not for loitering or just standing there"
Rick you have to count that area too in your occupant counts - it's 100 sf per person in this situation. Even storage closets and mechanical spaces have to be added up and the occupant count is 1 per 300 sf (if the total is under 300 then you count that as 1 occupant).
For your seating area you should use 7 sf per person - not 15 - because you know they're not going to have the tables and chairs set up all the time.
And what about the space for all the catering equipment, temporary trash barrels & silverware & plate bins, etc.?
i think we found the value of IDP!
Threesleeve,
There's no dinner/diner caterers stuff that I am aware of. There isn't really any "dinner" that I am aware of. If there are deviation from what was originally part of the discussions then perhaps there is something to talk about.
Rick yes those are roof exhausts. Which are not the same thing as smoke vents. Do you understand the difference?
I thought you were a "building designer" with hundreds of credits of related education and years of experience and self-study. What did you actually learn?
What exactly does the code require? There is also 3 ridge vents other than those mechanical exhausts.
http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/research/research-foundation/research-foundation-reports/other-research-topics/theatre.pdf?la=en
In any case, there's 3 exhaust ventilation (mechanical ventilation) and 3 rather standard roof ridge vents. That's in the main CMU portion of the building.
I don't know the make and model. That would be on the mechanical engineer's plans.
For example: http://ekeindia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/roof-exhaust-centrifugal-fan-downblast-belt-direct-driven.pdf
I couldn't off-hand tell you what they installed up there are these. I wasn't provided that information from the client or the engineers.
Ridge vents and exhausts do not do the same thing... Not even associated with the same disciplines.
The code specifically requires a stage to have a minimum of two smoke vents. I believe someone else posted the language at some point in this thread. These are vents that open both manually, and by a fusible link (it fuses at a certain temperature, which triggers the vent to open in the event of fire). Usually these are also tied to the fire alarm system and/or trigger the fire and smoke alarms. These things have nothing to do with exhaust vents, or with ridge vents (which have nothing to do with each other by the way).
Of course there is catering and dinner. It's dinner theater. All the flyers about the dinner-time shows mention the steak house that prepares and serves the dinner.
You cannot possibly not have known that - you keep saying you designed the stage-viewing and made your occupant calcs based on tables and chairs seating - what did you think the tables were for? It's unbelievably, criminally irresponsible of you to have not designed this with anywhere for that equipment to go except in the egress routes.
Sheullmi, that's a really good point. A lot of the conversation with Rick in this thread is the type of conversation that one has with inexperienced interns, in which they learn how to calculate occupant counts, how to read codes, how to look up UL assemblies, why we have to assume that there are people both in the hallways and in the audience at the same time, what are standpipes, what do they look like, what's a smoke vent, where can we let the electrical engineer locate the main panel, etc. - but they learn these things early in their career, while Rick has gotten a decade into his without picking up on these things.
Smoke vent http://www.blwilcox.com/roof_hatches/images/smoke-vents-steel-double-bsvg.jpg
"Egress is not for loitering or just standing there"
Rick you have to count that area too in your occupant counts - it's 100 sf per person in this situation. Even storage closets and mechanical spaces have to be added up and the occupant count is 1 per 300 sf (if the total is under 300 then you count that as 1 occupant).
For your seating area you should use 7 sf per person - not 15 - because you know they're not going to have the tables and chairs set up all the time.
And what about the space for all the catering equipment, temporary trash barrels & silverware & plate bins, etc.?
We are talking about the backstage area, right?
Counting for storage closets would reduce the occupant load count of those rooms because I counted the raw interior dimensions of those rooms at 15 sq.ft. per person. There is a fixed geometry of the backstage area as well as the rooms. The egress would add 2 to the occupant load of the backstage area occupant. The bathroom would be 1-2 people.
All that and I'd be running around 48-49. Since some percentage of that number would be on stage from time to time, it would be less but let's throw it into to the whole building occupant load.
For the seating audience area even at 5 sq.ft. per person for 3000 sq.ft theater room (CMU building, You need to deduct for the stage which is around 773.33333333333333333333 sq.ft. give or take a little. So give about 780 sq.ft. That puts the total stage platform occupant load to 52 people. Since it isn't separate from the audience area exactly. It can go into the occupant count for the egress.
Since you need to count at least 8-ft. of egress and a 5 to 6 ft wide egress area behind the seating area between the snack bar and souvenir "corner" and the egress out the north exit. Lets not forget the 4'-5' of space between the stage and the front row of seating. (Remember egress would be that 1 per sq.ft.). Lets subtract 8" from the interior dimensions (east-west axis) for the pilasters bricks. That's 38' before subtracting 8 to 10-ft. for the egress. Using rough measurements, 882-inches north south. That's 73.5 without subtracting for stage and egresses/aisles along the east/west connecting to the north/south egresses.
Let's say we got a 31-32' N/S axis seating area. Along the east/west, we have 30-ft. So 30-ft. x 32'. That's 960 sq.ft. That's 138 rounded up. Lets add the stage of 52 from the number just above. That's 190 people. Lets assume with the sq.ft. area of the egresses in the audience area that we are around 10 additional people. (200 people.). The booths obviously won't have this much but lets count the front 15x38 at 7 sq.ft. per person. That's 81 people. So 281. Required egress is 56.2".
Door width/exits have a combined width of 78". Egresses are typically a combined width of 9' to 10' Usually 5-ft.to 5'-4" on the east side. 4' to 4'-4" on the west side.
There is only about 960 to maybe 1000 sq.ft. of seating area minus stage, egresses, and some accessory areas in the theater room. So even pushing it to 1000 sq.ft., you got 142 plus the other numbers and you're around 285 + 49 (backstage) = 334.
We are running still with an egress requirement of 66.8" and that's also including door. We have 3 exits in the whole building. Code requires only 2.
I could propose for 2 more exits on the existing building with either an addition or nearby detached structure on site with bathrooms and ticket booth / office. 1 of those exits from the Costume room in the backstage directly out. The other being on the NW corner of the CMU structure for an entrance|exit for the people operating the lights by re-opening that section of the building and egress to sidewalk.
Threesleeve,
There wasn't things like steak and such being proposed or presented to me by the client at the time. We were looking at the Shanghai in Astoria program at the time. There was no steak or other such offerings. It was just the popcorn and the sodas or beer.
This was probably a programmatic addition that happened since opening. The project program had no discussion of catering services.
senjohnblutarsky,
There are alternative methods for smoke control/ventilation besides passive ventilation for smoke. There is Mechanical methods.
http://ekeindia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/roof-exhaust-centrifugal-fan-downblast-belt-direct-driven.pdf
Go to page 6 on this. I can't tell you off hand if the unit up there is like this one with Smoke Control Option. There is three of them. That would be excessive for this building just for standard ventilation. I'm guessing it has something to do with meeting smoke control & ventilation.
1. You wouldn't know one from a kangaroo if it kicked you in the face.
2. You had nothing to do with this project so you never had to coordinate the drawings or take them to the BO for permitting.
K4L
That alternative doesn't meet code for smoke vents for stages - the vents have to work manually so that if the power is out they still work.
So you're claiming they told you they were only going to serve popcorn, soda and such, but told you to assume the seating would be at tables? Any real design professional would understand the implications of that. Again, what did you think the tables were for? A theater is not going to sacrifice all that potential audience seating area for tables if they're only serving movie theater type snack food. Remember how you said in the edgeless pool thread that we can't just design to code - we have to anticipate what someone will do? It was pretty obvious what they were going to do here as soon as they told you they wanted tables - so it was your duty as a design professional to connect the dots and understand that you'd better design room for equipment and catering staff such that they wouldn't be blocking exits.
You mentioned something above about there being a unisex bathroom in the building. Did that really get built, or is that another thing where you're not sure? The articles about the new design say there are no bathrooms at all and the portapotties are the only toilets for audience, staff, and actors.
no_form,
I couldn't tell you of hand because the engineers drawings never came to me to be reviewed or coordinated. When the clients were directly contracting the engineers, the engineers weren't sending their drawings to me. They were sending them to the client (ASOC). I don't have mechanical plans themselves. They aren't even in the permit file except the sprinklers but the sprinklers made some vague reference to.
Is it that hard to figure out. Add to that, it also appeared to me that the clients wasn't being all that truthful with me.
Threesleeve,
The snack bar is about 10' deep. Popcorn and beer and soda is already done at the snack bar. The work surface is maybe 2-ft. to 2.5' and in some case, 3'. If they have steak and all that at SPECIAL SHOWS and all. They reduce seating capacity to make room for it all.
How hard is that to think about. Not all programs seat that many people. When they have special catering, the seating is reduced or the number of tables are reduced. Normally, a hotdog that is heated in a warmer and the small bag of chips isn't an issue. It's already handled in the space. As for special catering beyond that, it's probably at a special show event seating less people like 60-70 people.
I've never seen steak offered during Shanghaied in Astoria main program.
the balkans method:
1) fail at project management
2) railroad the client on a public forum
3) ????
4) live in moms basement
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter how big the snack bar is. The point is, if the owner were really intending only to serve those types of snacks, they never would have asked you to plan the primary seating set up to be tables and chairs. They wouldn't have done that because tables are totally unnecessary for those snack items - so if they had truly only been planning to serve those snacks then they would have told you to plan the design around rows of seating. The fact that you were asked to design around tables and chairs (which you keep saying is what you based your occupant totals on) means that the theater was already planning, way back then, to serve dinner. You should have realized that and based the design on that scenario. A place that serves meals, even if doesn't prepare them, has different plumbing count requirements and different electrical requirements than a place that only serves snacks.
Has anybody reported this yet to the board of health?
I saw the room framed. The insulation installed. The plumbing that we had to run a new pipe across the middle of the floor. There's basically 4 rooms. One of them being a small room only big enough for a restroom. It was called for even in schematic design. In order to even have porta potties, they had to at least have one permanent restroom installed. There is even a permit for it as well as there was a bathroom exhaust fan installed. There was a permit for it as well.
Part of the reason the egress hallway 'snakes' a little bit was so there would be an ADA compliant Unisex bathroom.
It was clear at the time, to properly do up permanent restrooms for the entire seating audience, there would need to be an addition or separate building with the bathrooms with sufficient toilet facilities including an ADA stall for each gender (or an ADA unisex room) for the main audience. The idea for the porta potties was to get by for one season of Shanghai in Astoria and then move forward to get the rest of that done. One bathroom was installed.
Threesleeve,
The tables were brought over from the previous location. At least the rectangular ones. Since then, they got new tables.
They didn't even started doing any of the catering stuff until after the project was completed.
They spent some good decade plus using the rectangular tables and chairs at previous locations with just popcorn, soda, hotdog and a bag of chips.
They didn't have these additional catering.
Threesleeve,
How can I assume they would be doing full dinners? Even if they did, they would just reduce the number of tables and seating for audience. That's designing by assumptions of what they MIGHT possibly ever do in the future. Hell man, lets plan for every possible future application of the building for the next 4 BILLION YEARS while we are at it.
Plumbing code doesn't make the toilets optional in A-1.
Doesn't the stage have an infinity edge?
robots will never replace architects, Balkins is living proof!
nicholass817,
As this is part of a multi-phase project, the portable restrooms were for temporary use during shows and as such it was intended to be only for the summer. For whatever reason, they been running extensions on the issue. The reason I didn't design an addition for it would be that I wasn't going to flat out violate the licensing laws. An attached addition was something that I told them to hire an architect for.
The portable restrooms was a provision the building official authorized as a temporary plan.
It doesn't remove the requirement of bathrooms. It was something that was to be done in two phases. Portable restrooms was to be a temporary solution. In fact, they are suppose to have permanent restrooms before going full-year operation.
balkans, there is no we. it was they. you didn't do this project. maybe you stood around watching them build it and offered up your two cents when they were eating their lunch, but ultimately, you had nothing to do with the drawings, permitting, or construction of this theater.
but the one result of this 16 page conversation is that you're learning about how to actually design a theater and what mistakes were made by the licensed GC who did this work.
now, by no means should you go out and design a theater based on what you've learned in this thread. you're not an architect. you're a guy who likes drafting, old computers, and transvestites apparently. which is fine, but you've no business designing buildings.
maybe you should take a trip to the outback, check out some kangaroos, have a Fosters and enjoy your life. if you keep at it with being a "PBD" you're going to end up broke and potentially in jail.
no_form,
*roll eyes*
*shakes head*
PS:
you do realize Richard Balkins Building Designer that you are the idiot and moron here.
Olaf,
For arguing with you morons, yes, I am an idiot and moron. It doesn't matter if I am right, you guys would argue against me anyway and do this annoying shit. So arguing with you idiots that are just arguing with me to just be arguing is just to annoy me.
I've just exhausted arguing this with you guys and where there are issues, I'll be addressing it with the people that matters such as with the building official not debating the issues on the forum.
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