We had a Client that came to us to start a new "Small Lot Subdivision" project in the city of Hollywood in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan area. To do a small lot subdivision, you need to do a "Tentative Tract Map Approval" submittal application which typically takes 9 months to review and approve to obtain the preliminary approval and then another 6 months for the final approval. The application requires the input and drawings from Architect, Civil Engineer, Soils Engineer, Arborist, Landscape Architect, Environmental consultant etc to be completed before submittal.
We as Architects being the first in line gave the Client an "Hourly Not To Exceed" contract to do what was required in the application process as far as the Architect's portion of the work (i.e. Plans, sections, elevations, renderings, etc..). We finished this work and got paid for it. The relationship was also totally fine and they (Client) loved our design.
Then the other day, the client E mails us and says please send us all the digital files of the work done to date. This is while we were waiting for him to get all the other consultants on board so we can put a complete submittal together! So, we hand him all the plans, Elevations, sections and 8 high quality in-house renderings in PDF format with clear designation of pending Copyright at the bottom left of each panel.
Since giving him the digital files, he (the client) has disappeared and is not answering calls and/or E mails. We have a suspicion that he may be up to taking our design work and going to others to continue with it thinking he can get a better deal going forward ! (When he showed up to our office to take the flash drive of the digital files, he was suspicious that the files are not there and wanted to check the content first on one our computers before accepting it which was very strange!!!)
Just to give you some background, the Client is from a foreign country with no development experience. He was very surprised at all the cost for various consultants (i.e Soils, Civil, Landscape, etc) that he needed to expend to just file for Tentative Tract Map Approval.
Anyway, my questions is:
Can he take our design work and give it to another Architect to continue the work without our consent even though he has paid us for work to date ? or does our copyright protect us? Our position is: we have been paid for our time to produce but we still maintain our intellectual property rights ! , are we correct in thinking that?
and if he does do that, what are our options?
By the way, we took the step of applying for copyright protection for the project and its pending approval by the copyright office.
Comments from anyone with prior real experience with issues as related to copyright protection of Architect's work are appreciated.
How long have you been in business? Some noobs fresh outta college? start a firm?
Every firm that I ever worked for made it a priority to make sure their contract never included working CD .dwg files and the like that can be altered.
You can stamp the shit out of this "for proposal only" or "for bid only" or copyright this and that, but once you hand over the cad dwgs you are basically relinquish you intellectual property right, bc you can almost guarantee the files will be altered, hence him making sure the dwg files where on the flash drive.
You will then have to take it to a judge (trial) for him to decide if the building is altered enough to warrant the copyright. A long and costly process that this foreigner probably knows about. And since you're fresh off the block, he saw your weakness and F'd you.
but in short, NO he really can't do that, but probably will and if he's foreign, maybe old school, he will give two shits about a lawsuit and hell - he might even kick your ass in a dark alley.
a PDF if not secured can be turned into a CAD easily.
if he changes enough of the design, it's not really copyright infringement.
No you give it to them and keep a tab on the project from there. If they do infact build the building using the plans you go from there, and build your case.
And that all depend on how the contract was written. Sometimes it is best not to be the architect of record, especially with clients like that...Just ask around.
Actually, we are not fresh off the block or a new firm. We have been in business now over 25 years and have really never run into this issue before where a client insists on the digital files (PDF only). Throughout the years we have given .PDF files to our printers, clients etc..for reproduction purposes but its never been abused.
How can you really stop this ? if a Client asks for a an E mail PDF copy of a drawing, you tell him no, you cant have it? is that even practical? I dont care what you put in your contract.
Digital files are being transferred all day long these days. You are telling me that once sent, you lose all your rights? That can't be right! surely
Perhaps someone else with more experience can inform you further, but I would say 'talk to a lawyer' to better understand your rights. I thought you did the foolish thing of giving the actual dwgs away. Hence the noob comment.
25 years in baseness and never seen this before...really. Usually those are the client that have to learn the hard way.
Fill out some information and the reCaptcha part and then download it. It is written for David E. Bennett, an attorney that deals with copyrights.
While this is targetted for Home Designers / plans publishers, it is also quite applicable to Architects which would apply equally in place of Home Designers.
This is a fair topic. I think the info is useful for those who want to be educated on the topic. There isn't a complete end all.
I think this is important for us to learn and understand this topic if you don't already know it well.
It's 70+ pages so it takes a little time to read through it.
Just based on experience and his “disappearing” he might be upselling the thing to another developer as a package, with no intention of building (changed his mind)…why else stop the train? Regardless, anybody can copy something, I had a client, in the days before computers, give my prints to another architect and he just traced them on a light table…and I have never met an attorney that would take a copyright case…peanuts to them, too much work, they will tell you to forget about it, especially since you were paid to date.
I would also say that residential stuff is hard to prove as being original or proprietary….you didn’t invent the cul-de-sac and the gable roof….believe me that’s what you’ll hear, I did….it’s not like he ran off with The Mona Lisa.
Might be too early to hit the panic button, your name is on the work, your stuff might be sold to someone else and you’ll get a call. If you weren’t paid I’d think differently, but for now just keep an eye out, maybe let the town planners know what happened and see what happens.
Jan 26, 16 7:56 pm ·
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Regarding the document link I provided above:
This may not answer specific questions and how you defend your copyrights or to detect fraudulent copies being made. Piracy can occur and easily when the building departments don't give a shit if the plans are original or not. They don't give a shit.
We have to develop means like application of a hologram sticker on original authorized copies distributed to clients. No copy machine can properly copy a hologram. But we need to make an industry standard so any printed are easily detected. Digital delivery brings its own challenges that frankly is not easy to stop. You have to use advance DRM the same way as the movie industry and software industry does to disable copying but that only works with copying software that respects DRMs.
The trick is you have to make it difficult to make copies of the digital file in the first place. If you allow copies to be made, it can not be protected from illegal copying as there would be no DRM. Unless you can set up DRM to allow a precise limited number of copies and manage it. People can find ways to circumnavigate DRM management.
Then the issue for us is defending our rights.
Jan 26, 16 8:00 pm ·
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Carerra,
It isn't necessarily the individual components that are unique to protect. It is the ensemble of all parts in an expression that makes it original expression (copyright-able) or not.
If you copied someone else in the first place, it isn't much that you can protect or defend when scrutiny is at play.
This is why we need to do more to be creative and original. Add to that, you need to apply contractual language to defend yourself from situation where the client claim co-ownership of the rights to the design ideas because of their input. This 70+ page document actually talks about that in it.
Its really a sad state that we architects have no real and practical way of protecting our intellectual property rights even though there are laws in the book that supposedly protect us.
There needs to be something done on this front by all of us or soon everyone's work minus the Starchitect's would be considered worthless !
Maybe we should give out decoder rings and draw with milk.
Jan 26, 16 8:12 pm ·
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I'm with Olaf.
I would stick to prints as deliverable. Add a hologram sticker on the plans and possibly some 'invisible' ink pens that shows up on copiers that uses UV light saying something like: If you see this text without using a black light, this is an unauthorized copy in a repeated pattern right through the drawings and all. Basically a means of screwing up the drawings in a manner that proves the original from an illegal copy.
Little dirty tricks. :D
Jan 26, 16 8:19 pm ·
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Sneaky Pete,
I just sourced a document that is written by an attorney.
As for copy protection of digital content, its virtually impossible if someone endeavors enough. It is then about recovery for the wrong done to you.
If your work is merely copying someone else in the first place, you got a problem. You also would be advised to protect yourself from clients claiming Joint Works rights contractually so their mere input in a legally defensible manner.
A lawyer will look at those issues more deeply but the document written by a lawyer should alone be some basis of consideration.
Jan 26, 16 8:24 pm ·
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KR8VE,
No one can really protect or prevent illegal copying from happening. The laws don't necessarily do anything to prevent someone. A criminal doesn't give a shit about laws. That's why they are criminals. The copyright laws empowers recovery for losses and various costs for pursuing legal action. Copyright registration helps to further provide for more recovery which includes recovery for attorney fees, etc.
Digital content can not be perfectly copy protected. It is impossible. We tried that for 30+ years. Every single method has been circumvented. All we can do is make it a deterrent.
The idea of printed copies, invisible ink (UV make it visible) or holograms or both are methods that can be used to detect illegal copies. Holograms are probably the best and they can't be copied with equipment at your typical copy center. It would be more a deterrent and removal of the hologram is destructive and you would have to do a lot of work to remove all of the hologram without basically destroying the paper it is adhered to.
It becomes a lot more work for them to do that. If you deliver something that anyone can just print off a regular printer and make copies with a simple plain copier, you are basically defeating the ability for anyone to detect illegal copies.
You might say, the client can just affix a hologram sticker but they have to match. You can have specific numbers associated to that copy which you have as a registery. Much like serial numbers on the dollar bill. There are all sorts of techniques. The point is making the cost and extra work a deterrent.
If the OP got paid for the time invested and doesn't face residual liability from someone else using their drawings, he probably got off clean. Could be a lot worse. The client was "surprised" at the cost and is now not returning phone calls. Not a blue chip customer. Forget the holograms, lawyers, monitoring the site, etc., and move on. These kinds of clients will eat you alive.
^Totally agree. The best advice I ever got was – Take the money & run.
98% of architects have only one recourse they can afford – Never let a client get more than 60 days out, get paid and move on. Believe me, if you sue somebody they sue back, then what?
lol...I guess what gets me is the OP has been business for 25 years and never seen this. Is that even possible? What wonderful clients you have had for 2 and half decades. Welcome to the real world!
This discussion was great. How does one go 25 years without knowing this?
I'd get on-board with holograms on my drawings...
Jan 26, 16 11:41 pm ·
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DeTwan,
How are you going to prove they plans are counterfeit?
If you claim they are using counterfeit plans or making illegal copies (counterfeit copies), you have to prove they are counterfeit.
The building department are the only ones that will be in a position to be able to detect a counterfeit set but you need to have very clearly identifiable means for the building department who are not specially trained to be able to obviously detect.
Holograms can NOT be reproduced by the copiers at the typical reprographics. They can't reproduce the hologram effect. That is something very visible and detectable by ANYONE with eye sight.
Those machines are not equipped with means of producing holograms. It requires special equipment.
I would use a two prong approach. A clearly detectable method and a hidden or less visibly detectable method. Building departments can reject unauthorized/illegal copies of plans but they aren't trained for detecting hidden means. If they are going to be helping in the process, there has to be a clear identifiable difference between an illegal copy and a legal copy of the plans that they can't help but notice. We all know how holograms and how how the hologram effect looks.
Part of making this process work is by A) delivering only printed copies to the client and B) not distributing our digital files to client or their contractor.
In order for them to successfully reproduce copies of the plans, we need to make it more cost prohibitive both in the time it takes but also to reproduce the methods used to detect counterfeit plans. The effort to do it would have to be too much an encumbrance and cost factor including labor cost being just too much to be worth it to be a deterrent.
It isn't 100% fool proof but they have to go through too much trouble for it to be worth it. Most of those people counterfeiting architectural plans are not looking to spend a lot of money to do it. Even the builders. They want to minimize expense.
If we as a profession use such methods as I noted on printed plans, it would make it easier for the building department to detect fraudulent plans and stop the permit plan review process and inform us the designers. For example, in Oregon, if you are not licensed, you would be submitting plans on paper or submit plans electronically directly to the building department as the state e-permitting process currently requires a license because of how they set it up.
If I were submitting plans, it would be the printed method in the first place. It keeps the electronic/digital files under my control.
A simple hologram would just make plans more difficult to reproduce without the copies being detected as copies made from the authentic originals.
You are missing the point. I know your point is that you don't value your work as being worth much. You think a small sticker costing ~50 cents (give or take some) applied on a per sheet basis is that much of a cost.
Does it really cost that much?
Jan 27, 16 12:53 am ·
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A combination of holograms with a unique number visible under UV and with a UV ink pen that number on the sheet the hologram is applied to are just a mechanism used to just make the life of the counterfeiter more difficult to counterfeit without detection. The hologram part and the UV stuff (using a UV LED light to show it), voila... the idea is more a deterrent.
Those who make counterfeit plans are going to do it as long as they don't get caught and as long as they are able to do so as cheaply as they can.
Your contract wasn't to design a building to get built, it was to design a masterplan to get municipal approval, right? It sounds like you fulfilled your part of the obligation and the client fulfilled their part. If another architect were to start with your planning documents to develop a building design and construction documents, I don't see why that would be bad. Of course I don't know what you were actually hired for or how far you developed drawings so I could be wrong.
Those who make counterfeit plans are going to do it as long as they don't get caught and as long as they are able to do so as cheaply as they can.
In other words, nothing is going to change. In the "old days" an unscrupulous client just took blueline prints of your drawings and had mylar reproducibles made and scraped off your title blocks and got somebody to stamp them if necesary. You might on rare occasions catch him, but probably not. It's part of the business, unfortunately. Only the means have changed.
Face it, if you can just get a return on your time you are doing well, because that is really all you are selling. A building is not a definable mass product the way a widget is, and the copyright laws against counterfeits just don't work as well.
It's one more example of why you should structure your fee schedule to make sure you are getting prompt progress payments in proportion to time expended. Never give away too much on the design phase on the theory that you will back end load the fee when doing CD's. The client can fall out of bed midway through for any number of reasons, and then you are SOL.
Deferred compensation is generally a very bad idea. See: American pension system.
I don't see the problem with handing over PDF files. It's the equivalent of a printed set these days. Sure, you could be a jerk on insist on only giving them printed sets, which they could then scan into PDF's, and guaranty that you don't get invited to phase 2.
it's not even worth your time to consider the differences between a pdf and printed set. in the end you're just being petty, and building a reputation as a firm that wants to be petty.
when you start the project, understand what your deliverables are. if there was a clear agreement with the client that they would design every house in the development, then maybe they're right and it's shenanigans. or, maybe they have a reason to believe they have the right to design every house in the development, but the project fell through (money, time, whatever, it happens all the time). if that's the case, shit happens and they should be glad they got paid for what they already did.
From the OP, it sounds like they had agreed upon deliverables of plans, elevations, and whatever was necessary to get their tract map approval, which they did, and which they got paid for. everybody wins. when everybody wins, you shouldn't walk away upset.
Perhaps the OP can explain better as to what they expected, what they think the client expected, and what happened to create that gap.
Three questions for the OP (or for anyone else wondering if your client is stealing your copyright):
First, what does your agreement with the client say about your copyright? (who owns it)
Second, what does your agreement with the client say about your deliverables/instruments of service? (what are you supposed to provide)
Third, what does your agreement with the client say about using the instruments of service with regard to copyright? (what can the client do with the services you provide)
Figuring out the answers to those questions will let you know whether or not you should discuss this with your lawyer. Also, unless you've registered your copyright, you won't be able to bring a lawsuit for copyright infringement. So if you are serious about protecting your copyright, you'll pay the fee and register your work.
okay, lets say he does use the "design"! What next? Lawsuit? I'll make it simple for you! Unless it's some grand design of some sort, which probably is not, just don't worry about it and move on. If you do file for lawsuit, you will lose your deductible and your insurance will settle, and you are out of money. If they counter your claim, then you will lose even more money.
One more thing, how the fuck do you prove it is your design? I've been there before and my statement was going against the clients statement where she said that the entire time she was sitting with me and designing.
And listen to Balkins as hes been designing decks that are very unique and very creative!!!
To Everyday's list I would add: What would a reasonable person have believed they were agreeing to? What would a reasonable architect thought the agreement meant? Would a reasonable developer have agreed, in effect, to consider hiring only that one architectural firm to complete the project regardless of how the relationship might have developed or how the project needs might have changed? Come on. In the real world, that is also what a court is going to consider.
Listened to an interview with Mark Cuban, he suggest we do away with copywriting, says in his world big corporations are buying up huge blocks of obscure copyrights and sitting on them just waiting for an innovator to create something and suing because someone copied some obscure code.
Putting the notice on your drawings might help with liability, but as others have mentioned we are not inventing the wheel here. We are looking at copyrights as a way to get paid, like some kind of insurance, but as Miles says once you get to the point that you need a lawyer to collect, it’s too late.
Lawsuits will suck the life out of you.
Jan 27, 16 2:14 pm ·
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Non Sequitur,
Ricky, how much would it cost to place a hologram on a 200-page A0 size drawing set?
The cost varies depending on vendor and features such is hidden security features like 'serial number' only visible under a UV black light. If you use a UV ink pen to pair numbers on the sheet with the hologram which may cost $0.50 per hologram without getting too fancy. Yes, you can spend more money with more customization and security features and so forth. How much is the print cost per sheet?
$3 or $4 a sheet or possibly more for that size. So it might cost a little more. How much are you being paid to design a project that would require a 200 page A0 size drawing set or the closely sized Arch E size sheets. The cost isn't that much to implement. It doesn't need to be the whole size sheet.
While your main print is probably a simple printout. It isn't like a 5 cents a page printout.
While the cost maybe higher, the cost is legitimate because it is a legal security authentication practice that is defensible in court.... and yes, it isn't your client's business. You find lawyers using special paper with security features implemented as well.
It's a mechanism for illegal copies of plans to be detected. Your time is worth $0 if your intellectual property associated with your plans is worth $0 because you don't defend and protect it.
The idea of NOT doing anything to defend or protect your intellectual properties (copyrights)... you might as well not get paid. No one is going to pay you for your designs if they can get it for free. If your business is in selling building plans, this becomes even more important because who is going to pay for something they can get it for free.
While you are mainly into one off building designs where the plans are typically used for a one time construction of the building depicted on the plans. They aren't repeatedly used. It probably means nothing until someone happens to use it to build a second building with it or a third without paying you accordingly. While all that is happening, you are inadvertently becoming liable for each and every one of those buildings. You need a defense for recovery. Grounds for a counter-suit and nail the assholes. Possibly, even criminally charged so they may face serious penalties including prison time to abate this conduct.
The very attitude that is given around here by some are literally a bill board say "Please F--- us in the ass, pirate the hell out of our plans illegally, we won't do anything or sue you". Is that the message we want to be telling people?
There is a percentage of them they knows what they are doing and there is a willful intent. The justice they deserve and we deserve is they get the maximum sentencing under law which includes complete financial restitution, all statutory reward, and they go to prison where they belong to sit it out and ponder why they are in prison and learn the lesson they need to learn to discontinue such practices.
As long as we do nothing, what the hell is it worth to be in the profession.
I write software program, I have a copyright to it. I have to defend it or illegal copies made will simply mean I get $0 for the time I spent working on the project and $0 for the money I can earn from the work. Are you going to say that software and books and other such works are worth more and therefore more worthy of copyright and defending than architectural plans/works or do you value it on the same level... at the very least.
carrera, it's quite possible that mark cuban was saying he wants stronger copyright law.
he has come out against patent trolls, and he is a strong advocate for patent reform, even going so far as to say he thinks we should get rid of all software patents. he has said that copyright laws instead of patent laws could protect people who are trying to innovate and invent new things.
Jan 27, 16 2:53 pm ·
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okay, lets say he does use the "design"! What next? Lawsuit? I'll make it simple for you! Unless it's some grand design of some sort, which probably is not, just don't worry about it and move on. If you do file for lawsuit, you will lose your deductible and your insurance will settle, and you are out of money. If they counter your claim, then you will lose even more money.
One more thing, how the fuck do you prove it is your design? I've been there before and my statement was going against the clients statement where she said that the entire time she was sitting with me and designing.
And listen to Balkins as hes been designing decks that are very unique and very creative!!!
If the work itself isn't creative, it probably isn't something worth doing anything regarding copyright. It would be pretty much a waste of time. If the work is more creative than that, has a creative merit that you can prove is your work then you need to protect & defend.
I know what the damage copyright infringement can do especially if the work is something that can be copied or copied without extraordinary expense. (ANY digital content)... you can pretty much make $0.00 after spending 18 months of FULL-TIME to OVERTIME work preparing just to make nothing from it because no one would buy it because some asshole made a copy of it and put in an easily downloadable for for free. No one is going to pay for something they can get for free. As long as they can get your work for free from a pirate/copyright infringer,you aren't going to get customers or it will be very small compared to what it could have been.
Imagine 10 MILLION people downloaded that pirated game or application. You might have got 10 people in the world that was honest enough to pay for it. You were charging $20 for it. So you earned, $200 after investing year of full-time work developing it and releasing it. If that pirate didn't screw you over, you could have got up to 10 Million people purchasing it which you could have earned up to $200 MILLION. Even if only 10% of them actually purchased it, that is a big difference.
It's the difference between being paid and at least making ROI versus not being paid at all or practically not earn anything. Would you be so light on losing your earnable income opportunity to someone was a dick and screwed you over.
Architecture business don't really maximize their earning for their design ideas. They get a relatively flat figure and that's all they make.... for the design. If you don't make any further money on the idea than the one time pay made from one client (aka customer), then copyright means nothing to you. Then maybe you might as well transfer the copyright because you capped off future earning opportunities.
The house plans publishing is pretty much like the software development & publishing. You need to make money on sales of plans.
Jan 27, 16 3:17 pm ·
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is this a big problem? Should we replace all out stamps with embossers?
Contractors need to be able to make copies of the drawings, how often is there a copyright issue with an owner?
Shuellmi,
No they don't. They just need to make orders for more copies of the drawings from you.
Don't sabotage your publisher rights as copyright holder.
If you don't defend your copyright then all you are telling people is that it is OK for them to pirate/infringe on your copyright because you aren't going to do a damn thing about it.
Bottom line: They'll look at you with a message of "What are you going to do about it?" "You're just a wuss that won't do anything and I have nothing to worry about infringing your copyright".
Is that what you want them to think of you and architects as a profession?
You effectively lose your rights provided by copyright laws if you don't defend it. There is also a statutes of limitation of taking action.
Copyright protection
We had a Client that came to us to start a new "Small Lot Subdivision" project in the city of Hollywood in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan area. To do a small lot subdivision, you need to do a "Tentative Tract Map Approval" submittal application which typically takes 9 months to review and approve to obtain the preliminary approval and then another 6 months for the final approval. The application requires the input and drawings from Architect, Civil Engineer, Soils Engineer, Arborist, Landscape Architect, Environmental consultant etc to be completed before submittal.
We as Architects being the first in line gave the Client an "Hourly Not To Exceed" contract to do what was required in the application process as far as the Architect's portion of the work (i.e. Plans, sections, elevations, renderings, etc..). We finished this work and got paid for it. The relationship was also totally fine and they (Client) loved our design.
Then the other day, the client E mails us and says please send us all the digital files of the work done to date. This is while we were waiting for him to get all the other consultants on board so we can put a complete submittal together! So, we hand him all the plans, Elevations, sections and 8 high quality in-house renderings in PDF format with clear designation of pending Copyright at the bottom left of each panel.
Since giving him the digital files, he (the client) has disappeared and is not answering calls and/or E mails. We have a suspicion that he may be up to taking our design work and going to others to continue with it thinking he can get a better deal going forward ! (When he showed up to our office to take the flash drive of the digital files, he was suspicious that the files are not there and wanted to check the content first on one our computers before accepting it which was very strange!!!)
Just to give you some background, the Client is from a foreign country with no development experience. He was very surprised at all the cost for various consultants (i.e Soils, Civil, Landscape, etc) that he needed to expend to just file for Tentative Tract Map Approval.
Anyway, my questions is:
Can he take our design work and give it to another Architect to continue the work without our consent even though he has paid us for work to date ? or does our copyright protect us? Our position is: we have been paid for our time to produce but we still maintain our intellectual property rights ! , are we correct in thinking that?
and if he does do that, what are our options?
By the way, we took the step of applying for copyright protection for the project and its pending approval by the copyright office.
Comments from anyone with prior real experience with issues as related to copyright protection of Architect's work are appreciated.
Wow, this is the naïveness that I talk about.
How long have you been in business? Some noobs fresh outta college? start a firm?
Every firm that I ever worked for made it a priority to make sure their contract never included working CD .dwg files and the like that can be altered.
You can stamp the shit out of this "for proposal only" or "for bid only" or copyright this and that, but once you hand over the cad dwgs you are basically relinquish you intellectual property right, bc you can almost guarantee the files will be altered, hence him making sure the dwg files where on the flash drive.
You will then have to take it to a judge (trial) for him to decide if the building is altered enough to warrant the copyright. A long and costly process that this foreigner probably knows about. And since you're fresh off the block, he saw your weakness and F'd you.
facepalm
lots of discussion on this forum on same problem.
but in short, NO he really can't do that, but probably will and if he's foreign, maybe old school, he will give two shits about a lawsuit and hell - he might even kick your ass in a dark alley.
a PDF if not secured can be turned into a CAD easily.
if he changes enough of the design, it's not really copyright infringement.
good luck.
We only gave him .PDF files not .DWG CAD files!
How can you secure a .PDF files ?
We have written "Copyright" all over it, what else can you do when a client wants a digital copy of his files, be it via E mail or Flash Drive etc..?
Few... I thought you gave them the .dwg files.
No you give it to them and keep a tab on the project from there. If they do infact build the building using the plans you go from there, and build your case.
And that all depend on how the contract was written. Sometimes it is best not to be the architect of record, especially with clients like that...Just ask around.
You got paid right?
@DeTwan
Actually, we are not fresh off the block or a new firm. We have been in business now over 25 years and have really never run into this issue before where a client insists on the digital files (PDF only). Throughout the years we have given .PDF files to our printers, clients etc..for reproduction purposes but its never been abused.
How can you really stop this ? if a Client asks for a an E mail PDF copy of a drawing, you tell him no, you cant have it? is that even practical? I dont care what you put in your contract.
Digital files are being transferred all day long these days. You are telling me that once sent, you lose all your rights? That can't be right! surely
Perhaps someone else with more experience can inform you further, but I would say 'talk to a lawyer' to better understand your rights. I thought you did the foolish thing of giving the actual dwgs away. Hence the noob comment.
25 years in baseness and never seen this before...really. Usually those are the client that have to learn the hard way.
Just be glad they are gone.
password protect or even convert in photoshop to a rasterized or even scan or go old school - give them prints only. it makes it harder at least.
I have a document that can be a good read on the subject.
http://www.aibd.org/copyrightbasics/
Fill out some information and the reCaptcha part and then download it. It is written for David E. Bennett, an attorney that deals with copyrights.
While this is targetted for Home Designers / plans publishers, it is also quite applicable to Architects which would apply equally in place of Home Designers.
This is a fair topic. I think the info is useful for those who want to be educated on the topic. There isn't a complete end all.
I think this is important for us to learn and understand this topic if you don't already know it well.
It's 70+ pages so it takes a little time to read through it.
Just based on experience and his “disappearing” he might be upselling the thing to another developer as a package, with no intention of building (changed his mind)…why else stop the train? Regardless, anybody can copy something, I had a client, in the days before computers, give my prints to another architect and he just traced them on a light table…and I have never met an attorney that would take a copyright case…peanuts to them, too much work, they will tell you to forget about it, especially since you were paid to date.
I would also say that residential stuff is hard to prove as being original or proprietary….you didn’t invent the cul-de-sac and the gable roof….believe me that’s what you’ll hear, I did….it’s not like he ran off with The Mona Lisa.
Might be too early to hit the panic button, your name is on the work, your stuff might be sold to someone else and you’ll get a call. If you weren’t paid I’d think differently, but for now just keep an eye out, maybe let the town planners know what happened and see what happens.
Regarding the document link I provided above:
This may not answer specific questions and how you defend your copyrights or to detect fraudulent copies being made. Piracy can occur and easily when the building departments don't give a shit if the plans are original or not. They don't give a shit.
We have to develop means like application of a hologram sticker on original authorized copies distributed to clients. No copy machine can properly copy a hologram. But we need to make an industry standard so any printed are easily detected. Digital delivery brings its own challenges that frankly is not easy to stop. You have to use advance DRM the same way as the movie industry and software industry does to disable copying but that only works with copying software that respects DRMs.
The trick is you have to make it difficult to make copies of the digital file in the first place. If you allow copies to be made, it can not be protected from illegal copying as there would be no DRM. Unless you can set up DRM to allow a precise limited number of copies and manage it. People can find ways to circumnavigate DRM management.
Then the issue for us is defending our rights.
Carerra,
It isn't necessarily the individual components that are unique to protect. It is the ensemble of all parts in an expression that makes it original expression (copyright-able) or not.
If you copied someone else in the first place, it isn't much that you can protect or defend when scrutiny is at play.
This is why we need to do more to be creative and original. Add to that, you need to apply contractual language to defend yourself from situation where the client claim co-ownership of the rights to the design ideas because of their input. This 70+ page document actually talks about that in it.
@ RickB-OR
Thanks for yours and everyone else's input.
Its really a sad state that we architects have no real and practical way of protecting our intellectual property rights even though there are laws in the book that supposedly protect us.
There needs to be something done on this front by all of us or soon everyone's work minus the Starchitect's would be considered worthless !
<sigh>
Richard Balkins, Attorney-at-Law.
Better off calling Saul.
Maybe we should give out decoder rings and draw with milk.
I'm with Olaf.
I would stick to prints as deliverable. Add a hologram sticker on the plans and possibly some 'invisible' ink pens that shows up on copiers that uses UV light saying something like: If you see this text without using a black light, this is an unauthorized copy in a repeated pattern right through the drawings and all. Basically a means of screwing up the drawings in a manner that proves the original from an illegal copy.
Little dirty tricks. :D
Sneaky Pete,
I just sourced a document that is written by an attorney.
As for copy protection of digital content, its virtually impossible if someone endeavors enough. It is then about recovery for the wrong done to you.
If your work is merely copying someone else in the first place, you got a problem. You also would be advised to protect yourself from clients claiming Joint Works rights contractually so their mere input in a legally defensible manner.
A lawyer will look at those issues more deeply but the document written by a lawyer should alone be some basis of consideration.
KR8VE,
No one can really protect or prevent illegal copying from happening. The laws don't necessarily do anything to prevent someone. A criminal doesn't give a shit about laws. That's why they are criminals. The copyright laws empowers recovery for losses and various costs for pursuing legal action. Copyright registration helps to further provide for more recovery which includes recovery for attorney fees, etc.
Digital content can not be perfectly copy protected. It is impossible. We tried that for 30+ years. Every single method has been circumvented. All we can do is make it a deterrent.
The idea of printed copies, invisible ink (UV make it visible) or holograms or both are methods that can be used to detect illegal copies. Holograms are probably the best and they can't be copied with equipment at your typical copy center. It would be more a deterrent and removal of the hologram is destructive and you would have to do a lot of work to remove all of the hologram without basically destroying the paper it is adhered to.
It becomes a lot more work for them to do that. If you deliver something that anyone can just print off a regular printer and make copies with a simple plain copier, you are basically defeating the ability for anyone to detect illegal copies.
You might say, the client can just affix a hologram sticker but they have to match. You can have specific numbers associated to that copy which you have as a registery. Much like serial numbers on the dollar bill. There are all sorts of techniques. The point is making the cost and extra work a deterrent.
Holograms aren't going to do shit balkins... it would be better off to waste your money on Magic the gathering cards.
If the OP got paid for the time invested and doesn't face residual liability from someone else using their drawings, he probably got off clean. Could be a lot worse. The client was "surprised" at the cost and is now not returning phone calls. Not a blue chip customer. Forget the holograms, lawyers, monitoring the site, etc., and move on. These kinds of clients will eat you alive.
^Totally agree. The best advice I ever got was – Take the money & run.
98% of architects have only one recourse they can afford – Never let a client get more than 60 days out, get paid and move on. Believe me, if you sue somebody they sue back, then what?
Got paid for design and didn't have to do any real work, sounds like a home run to me.
lol...I guess what gets me is the OP has been business for 25 years and never seen this. Is that even possible? What wonderful clients you have had for 2 and half decades. Welcome to the real world!
This discussion was great. How does one go 25 years without knowing this?
I'd get on-board with holograms on my drawings...
DeTwan,
How are you going to prove they plans are counterfeit?
If you claim they are using counterfeit plans or making illegal copies (counterfeit copies), you have to prove they are counterfeit.
The building department are the only ones that will be in a position to be able to detect a counterfeit set but you need to have very clearly identifiable means for the building department who are not specially trained to be able to obviously detect.
Holograms can NOT be reproduced by the copiers at the typical reprographics. They can't reproduce the hologram effect. That is something very visible and detectable by ANYONE with eye sight.
Those machines are not equipped with means of producing holograms. It requires special equipment.
I would use a two prong approach. A clearly detectable method and a hidden or less visibly detectable method. Building departments can reject unauthorized/illegal copies of plans but they aren't trained for detecting hidden means. If they are going to be helping in the process, there has to be a clear identifiable difference between an illegal copy and a legal copy of the plans that they can't help but notice. We all know how holograms and how how the hologram effect looks.
Part of making this process work is by A) delivering only printed copies to the client and B) not distributing our digital files to client or their contractor.
In order for them to successfully reproduce copies of the plans, we need to make it more cost prohibitive both in the time it takes but also to reproduce the methods used to detect counterfeit plans. The effort to do it would have to be too much an encumbrance and cost factor including labor cost being just too much to be worth it to be a deterrent.
It isn't 100% fool proof but they have to go through too much trouble for it to be worth it. Most of those people counterfeiting architectural plans are not looking to spend a lot of money to do it. Even the builders. They want to minimize expense.
If we as a profession use such methods as I noted on printed plans, it would make it easier for the building department to detect fraudulent plans and stop the permit plan review process and inform us the designers. For example, in Oregon, if you are not licensed, you would be submitting plans on paper or submit plans electronically directly to the building department as the state e-permitting process currently requires a license because of how they set it up.
If I were submitting plans, it would be the printed method in the first place. It keeps the electronic/digital files under my control.
A simple hologram would just make plans more difficult to reproduce without the copies being detected as copies made from the authentic originals.
You are missing the point. I know your point is that you don't value your work as being worth much. You think a small sticker costing ~50 cents (give or take some) applied on a per sheet basis is that much of a cost.
Does it really cost that much?
A combination of holograms with a unique number visible under UV and with a UV ink pen that number on the sheet the hologram is applied to are just a mechanism used to just make the life of the counterfeiter more difficult to counterfeit without detection. The hologram part and the UV stuff (using a UV LED light to show it), voila... the idea is more a deterrent.
Those who make counterfeit plans are going to do it as long as they don't get caught and as long as they are able to do so as cheaply as they can.
Your contract wasn't to design a building to get built, it was to design a masterplan to get municipal approval, right? It sounds like you fulfilled your part of the obligation and the client fulfilled their part. If another architect were to start with your planning documents to develop a building design and construction documents, I don't see why that would be bad. Of course I don't know what you were actually hired for or how far you developed drawings so I could be wrong.
Rick, the only thing counterfeit here is you.
Ricky, how much would it cost to place a hologram on a 200-page A0 size drawing set?
Miles to Rick
[ ] Rekt [ ] Super Rekt [ ] Super Saiyan Rekt [✔]
Those who make counterfeit plans are going to do it as long as they don't get caught and as long as they are able to do so as cheaply as they can.
In other words, nothing is going to change. In the "old days" an unscrupulous client just took blueline prints of your drawings and had mylar reproducibles made and scraped off your title blocks and got somebody to stamp them if necesary. You might on rare occasions catch him, but probably not. It's part of the business, unfortunately. Only the means have changed.
Face it, if you can just get a return on your time you are doing well, because that is really all you are selling. A building is not a definable mass product the way a widget is, and the copyright laws against counterfeits just don't work as well.
It's one more example of why you should structure your fee schedule to make sure you are getting prompt progress payments in proportion to time expended. Never give away too much on the design phase on the theory that you will back end load the fee when doing CD's. The client can fall out of bed midway through for any number of reasons, and then you are SOL.
Deferred compensation is generally a very bad idea. See: American pension system.
I don't see the problem with handing over PDF files. It's the equivalent of a printed set these days. Sure, you could be a jerk on insist on only giving them printed sets, which they could then scan into PDF's, and guaranty that you don't get invited to phase 2.
A PDF generated from the drawing program can very easily be made into a drawing again.
Delivering a printed set, or a scanned PDF makes it slightly more difficult for someone to use them. Only slightly, though.
is this a big problem? Should we replace all out stamps with embossers?
Contractors need to be able to make copies of the drawings, how often is there a copyright issue with an owner?
Jpeg then?
it's not even worth your time to consider the differences between a pdf and printed set. in the end you're just being petty, and building a reputation as a firm that wants to be petty.
when you start the project, understand what your deliverables are. if there was a clear agreement with the client that they would design every house in the development, then maybe they're right and it's shenanigans. or, maybe they have a reason to believe they have the right to design every house in the development, but the project fell through (money, time, whatever, it happens all the time). if that's the case, shit happens and they should be glad they got paid for what they already did.
From the OP, it sounds like they had agreed upon deliverables of plans, elevations, and whatever was necessary to get their tract map approval, which they did, and which they got paid for. everybody wins. when everybody wins, you shouldn't walk away upset.
Perhaps the OP can explain better as to what they expected, what they think the client expected, and what happened to create that gap.
Three questions for the OP (or for anyone else wondering if your client is stealing your copyright):
Figuring out the answers to those questions will let you know whether or not you should discuss this with your lawyer. Also, unless you've registered your copyright, you won't be able to bring a lawsuit for copyright infringement. So if you are serious about protecting your copyright, you'll pay the fee and register your work.
what are we trying to "protect"? our ability to make money for nothing? or preventing others from making money after we got paid?
a lawsuit for copyright infringement like we were inventing the iphone?
sorry , I live in a small world, I would be flattered if somebody copy anything I've done, for free!
Also, don't post pictures of your work on the internet if you don't want anybody to see and replicate it.
okay, lets say he does use the "design"! What next? Lawsuit? I'll make it simple for you! Unless it's some grand design of some sort, which probably is not, just don't worry about it and move on. If you do file for lawsuit, you will lose your deductible and your insurance will settle, and you are out of money. If they counter your claim, then you will lose even more money.
One more thing, how the fuck do you prove it is your design? I've been there before and my statement was going against the clients statement where she said that the entire time she was sitting with me and designing.
And listen to Balkins as hes been designing decks that are very unique and very creative!!!
To Everyday's list I would add: What would a reasonable person have believed they were agreeing to? What would a reasonable architect thought the agreement meant? Would a reasonable developer have agreed, in effect, to consider hiring only that one architectural firm to complete the project regardless of how the relationship might have developed or how the project needs might have changed? Come on. In the real world, that is also what a court is going to consider.
It’s like copyrighting decks.
Listened to an interview with Mark Cuban, he suggest we do away with copywriting, says in his world big corporations are buying up huge blocks of obscure copyrights and sitting on them just waiting for an innovator to create something and suing because someone copied some obscure code.
Putting the notice on your drawings might help with liability, but as others have mentioned we are not inventing the wheel here. We are looking at copyrights as a way to get paid, like some kind of insurance, but as Miles says once you get to the point that you need a lawyer to collect, it’s too late.
Lawsuits will suck the life out of you.
Non Sequitur,
Ricky, how much would it cost to place a hologram on a 200-page A0 size drawing set?
The cost varies depending on vendor and features such is hidden security features like 'serial number' only visible under a UV black light. If you use a UV ink pen to pair numbers on the sheet with the hologram which may cost $0.50 per hologram without getting too fancy. Yes, you can spend more money with more customization and security features and so forth. How much is the print cost per sheet?
$3 or $4 a sheet or possibly more for that size. So it might cost a little more. How much are you being paid to design a project that would require a 200 page A0 size drawing set or the closely sized Arch E size sheets. The cost isn't that much to implement. It doesn't need to be the whole size sheet.
While your main print is probably a simple printout. It isn't like a 5 cents a page printout.
While the cost maybe higher, the cost is legitimate because it is a legal security authentication practice that is defensible in court.... and yes, it isn't your client's business. You find lawyers using special paper with security features implemented as well.
It's a mechanism for illegal copies of plans to be detected. Your time is worth $0 if your intellectual property associated with your plans is worth $0 because you don't defend and protect it.
The idea of NOT doing anything to defend or protect your intellectual properties (copyrights)... you might as well not get paid. No one is going to pay you for your designs if they can get it for free. If your business is in selling building plans, this becomes even more important because who is going to pay for something they can get it for free.
While you are mainly into one off building designs where the plans are typically used for a one time construction of the building depicted on the plans. They aren't repeatedly used. It probably means nothing until someone happens to use it to build a second building with it or a third without paying you accordingly. While all that is happening, you are inadvertently becoming liable for each and every one of those buildings. You need a defense for recovery. Grounds for a counter-suit and nail the assholes. Possibly, even criminally charged so they may face serious penalties including prison time to abate this conduct.
The very attitude that is given around here by some are literally a bill board say "Please F--- us in the ass, pirate the hell out of our plans illegally, we won't do anything or sue you". Is that the message we want to be telling people?
There is a percentage of them they knows what they are doing and there is a willful intent. The justice they deserve and we deserve is they get the maximum sentencing under law which includes complete financial restitution, all statutory reward, and they go to prison where they belong to sit it out and ponder why they are in prison and learn the lesson they need to learn to discontinue such practices.
As long as we do nothing, what the hell is it worth to be in the profession.
I write software program, I have a copyright to it. I have to defend it or illegal copies made will simply mean I get $0 for the time I spent working on the project and $0 for the money I can earn from the work. Are you going to say that software and books and other such works are worth more and therefore more worthy of copyright and defending than architectural plans/works or do you value it on the same level... at the very least.
carrera, it's quite possible that mark cuban was saying he wants stronger copyright law.
he has come out against patent trolls, and he is a strong advocate for patent reform, even going so far as to say he thinks we should get rid of all software patents. he has said that copyright laws instead of patent laws could protect people who are trying to innovate and invent new things.
okay, lets say he does use the "design"! What next? Lawsuit? I'll make it simple for you! Unless it's some grand design of some sort, which probably is not, just don't worry about it and move on. If you do file for lawsuit, you will lose your deductible and your insurance will settle, and you are out of money. If they counter your claim, then you will lose even more money.
One more thing, how the fuck do you prove it is your design? I've been there before and my statement was going against the clients statement where she said that the entire time she was sitting with me and designing.
And listen to Balkins as hes been designing decks that are very unique and very creative!!!
If the work itself isn't creative, it probably isn't something worth doing anything regarding copyright. It would be pretty much a waste of time. If the work is more creative than that, has a creative merit that you can prove is your work then you need to protect & defend.
I know what the damage copyright infringement can do especially if the work is something that can be copied or copied without extraordinary expense. (ANY digital content)... you can pretty much make $0.00 after spending 18 months of FULL-TIME to OVERTIME work preparing just to make nothing from it because no one would buy it because some asshole made a copy of it and put in an easily downloadable for for free. No one is going to pay for something they can get for free. As long as they can get your work for free from a pirate/copyright infringer,you aren't going to get customers or it will be very small compared to what it could have been.
Imagine 10 MILLION people downloaded that pirated game or application. You might have got 10 people in the world that was honest enough to pay for it. You were charging $20 for it. So you earned, $200 after investing year of full-time work developing it and releasing it. If that pirate didn't screw you over, you could have got up to 10 Million people purchasing it which you could have earned up to $200 MILLION. Even if only 10% of them actually purchased it, that is a big difference.
It's the difference between being paid and at least making ROI versus not being paid at all or practically not earn anything. Would you be so light on losing your earnable income opportunity to someone was a dick and screwed you over.
Architecture business don't really maximize their earning for their design ideas. They get a relatively flat figure and that's all they make.... for the design. If you don't make any further money on the idea than the one time pay made from one client (aka customer), then copyright means nothing to you. Then maybe you might as well transfer the copyright because you capped off future earning opportunities.
The house plans publishing is pretty much like the software development & publishing. You need to make money on sales of plans.
is this a big problem? Should we replace all out stamps with embossers?
Contractors need to be able to make copies of the drawings, how often is there a copyright issue with an owner?
Shuellmi,
No they don't. They just need to make orders for more copies of the drawings from you.
Don't sabotage your publisher rights as copyright holder.
1031 words
JLC-1
I don't give a f---
you give bullshit a bad name
JLC-1,
If you don't defend your copyright then all you are telling people is that it is OK for them to pirate/infringe on your copyright because you aren't going to do a damn thing about it.
Bottom line: They'll look at you with a message of "What are you going to do about it?" "You're just a wuss that won't do anything and I have nothing to worry about infringing your copyright".
Is that what you want them to think of you and architects as a profession?
You effectively lose your rights provided by copyright laws if you don't defend it. There is also a statutes of limitation of taking action.
holograms - this looks like a solution in search of a problem
I can understand the OP's worry, but no one even knows if anything "bad" has or will happen
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