I seem to recall that working and middle class resentment has historically had a tendency to result in revolutions when it's been ignored. The aggressive complacency, corruption, and failures of the elite establishment are a big problem that's not going to get better by waiting for them to go away.
gwharton: "[Trump] has a personal style of flaunting his wealth and bragging about his abilities and successes. All of these things signal to the Working Class and Bourgeoisie that he is One Of Them and will protect their interests."
Sorry - that just doesn't scan for me ... you need to explain, because it just doesn't make any sense.
gwharton: " I want a president who knows when and how to do the right thing and not make decisions based on fear of the consequences."
You mean, sort of like Cheney / Bush's decision to invade Iraq based on weak intelligence -- and damn the consequences, like much greater instability in the Middle East and the meaningless deaths of uncounted individuals. Great ... policy based on the 'bigger set of balls" philosophy.
yeah - but that resentment is primarily caused by downward pressure on wages due to our continued promise of cheap goods, cheap oil, cheap single family houses on big lots, cheap roads, and cheap cars. This is why we're so wrapped up in the middle east because of our thirst for this unsustainable lifestyle - now he's planning on making deals with Russia? just postponing the inevitable.
We need oil. That's a fact. Our entire way of life is 100% dependent on cheap, safe, high-density energy sources being widely available, and there is no other option at the moment. So that leaves us with some difficult choices. We should continue to invest in finding an alternative to oil that actually works, but in the meantime, the oil must flow.
Consumerism is allowed by an oil economy, but is primarily a system of social control used to pacify the population, not an inevitable outgrowth of an oil economy itself. Replace oil with cheap, ubiquitous cold fusion, and consumerism will just continue unless we do something to change how we allow ourselves to be ruled.
And maintaining consumerism is what is supporting the credit- and fraud-driven economy that is the foundation of the current elite's power. Not oil. The elites have decided that Americans will accept any outrage against ourselves, our society, and our people as long as we can get iPhones and TVs. For a long time, they've been right about that. But we hit Peak Credit in 2008, and that system doesn't work anymore.
"consumerism is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people"
slightly modified quote.
be nice to see trump out there talking more about how he's going to invest in alternative energy sources, sort of like what obama has tried to do. it would be nice if he was turning the conversation towards divesting in consumer culture of cheap oil, cheap goods, cheap single family houses on large lots, and cheap cars. if he had any of the good attributes you assign to him (i disagree with the 'build a wall' policy) i might support him too.
I fear that Trump's primary fan base are people stuck out in the consumer sprawl wondering why the gravy train is ending - believing that if only we go after cheap oil or the immigrants or the EPA - that's how we can solve this problem. The reality is the fed can't afford to prop these places up anymore, can't afford to fight any more wars to keep energy costs low - this is why there's a huge rush back to "the city" among the elite (and knowledge class) - because they know shit's about to hit the fan.
He's speaking to this fear, but not speaking any hard truths - just promising that he'll continue to prop up these places for a little while longer...
like Cheney / Bush's decision to invade Iraq based on weak intelligence
The Iraq Wars were premeditated choices. See The Project For A New American Century. Clinton signed the original resolution calling for regime change in Iraq. PNAC's policy document, "Rebuilding America's Defences," openly advocated for total global military domination.
downward pressure on wages
is due to, among other things, over-saturated markets for everything including labor and financial manipulation of markets (commodities) to control prices. If you buy ketchup, Goldman collects profit.
I'm staying home on Election Day
Bad idea, even considering how fraudulent elections are on so many levels. We need to act in every way that we can to effect change, even if it seems entirely useless. The Occupy movement lasted less than a year and was fully infiltrated and undermined by intelligence agencies and police but was highly successful in one thing: changing the conversation. Wealth inequality has replaced debt as the critical issue.
gwharton, no need to get snippy, even if those gnomes are making you itchy.
Before Occupy the conversation was we need austerity because of the debt, with austerity being just another way to profit through public spending reductions and privatization. We were getting spoon-fed a stream of bullshit that promoted and enhanced the status quo under the guise of fiscal responsibility.
That's not the conversation any more.
And credit bubbles are only part of the equation. Commodity trading and market manipulation, insurance scams (credit default swaps and such), bailouts, corporate welfare, interest rate manipulation and systemic bank fraud, political corruption, outright extortion (oBOMBaCare), etc. are all strategies for achieving the the same goal.
Again, where do you think all of things you mention are coming from? They're not unrelated phenomena. They are all driven by underlying legalized monetary credit fraud in the form of maturity transformation, securitization, and fractional-reserve lending. I used to be a futures and options trader and ran a private equity fund. I know how that works. And without the vast and ramified credit structure underpinning the whole enterprise, the derivatives markets and shadow banking system would not have ballooned into the monstrosity they are today.
This is another major reason to support populist candidates against establishment candidates: populists are generally opposed to private manipulation of the monetary system via credit. Jefferson fought Hamilton's drive to centralize banking. Andrew Jackson killed the Second Bank of the United States. Teddy Roosevelt was staunchly opposed to the creation of its replacement.
situationist: That was an interesting article you linked at the top of this page. I only just got around to reading it. Strong analysis by that author. I recommend that others posting in this thread also take a look.
Which is what you are trying to do. You never address the many issues raised about Trump, you only post vague generalities like 'make America great again' or he's a 'world class deal maker'. You completely ignore bankruptcy as a business model, shady (to say the least) real estate deals, and other serious issues surrounding Trump in favor of blindly partisan attacks on what you call the blindly partisan, classist patter and categorizations, etc., entirely glossing over any substantive discussion of your golden boy.
"Occupy" changed absolutely nothing. They had a few kumbaya moments on CNN, got co-opted by Soros Inc., and drifted into self-parody. They are a laughingstock group who are LARPing in 60s sit-in nostalgia land.
As for Trump's bankruptcies, do you even understand how bankruptcy or real estate development works? Companies going bankrupt is common, particularly in risky business sectors like real estate, and it's been a couple of centuries since we had debtors prisons. Or are you saying we should bring generational indenture back for old times sake?
Trump had a few businesses fail, went through bankruptcy to clear the decks, got back in the saddle, and kept going. He's now a multi-billionaire. U mad bro?
As for somebody having been through bankruptcy having a qualification for dealing massive amounts of debt that will never, ever, ever be repaid in a zillion eons, that looks like a plus, not a minus. At some point, all that bad debt has to be cleared. That's exactly what the bankruptcy process is FOR. Keeping it all on the books and pretending we are solvent is not only fraudulent and stupid, it's also preventing us from getting our national economy back on a sound footing.
Trump uses bankruptcy to enhance his personal wealth. He uses it to leverage investors and banks into concessions including interest reduction or elimination, and/or offers to buy out them out (at a steep discount, of course). You make think this is smart business, but it is exactly the kind of legalized monetary credit fraud that you were crying about a few posts up.
Doug Heller, the executive director of Consumer Watchdog, said Trump is the "most egregious, almost comical example" of the disparity between what the average American faces when going through bankruptcy and the "ease with which the very rich can move in and out of bankruptcy."
Most of the debt Trump incurred was through bonds that were sold to the public."People knew who Donald Trump was and for that reason were willing to trust the bonds, and they got burned," LoPucki said. "The people who invested with him or based on his name lost money, but he himself came out pretty well."ABC
So...let me get this straight...you think that Trump's ability to go through bankruptcy without being ruined is a liability when it comes to developing a strategy for rectifying the national debt in a way that isn't catastrophic for our nation? Seems like it would be an asset. We've got $19 trillion in official debt that we can't ever pay back. The USA is bankrupt, whether we want to admit it officially or not.
The current establishment strategy for dealing with that is to impoverish everyday Americans in order to enrich the elite owners of global capital. A plan that dealt with the debt the way Trump dealt with his bankruptcy would do the opposite in favor of the American people. And you think that would be a bad thing?
gwharton, The guy has no soul. Look back how he treated his older brother , and his nephew when his father passed away ( he took the money and ran). Like I said Donald is not someone I would want as leader of this Great Country.
I'm not crazy about his bankruptcies either.....he is really a Bernie Madoff in my book.
Trump impoverishes everyday Americans for his personal benefit, and you think that makes him uniquely qualified to be president. That's what the whole system does: Trump is no different. Lookin' out for #1, fuck everyone else.
Hey, it's just business. Perfectly legal, I'm sure. At least according to his army of lawyers.
I'm not even going to begin to get into a discussion on economics with a former futures and options trader. How many people paid more because you speculated on prices?
The Superdelegate system worked exactly as it was designed to: to protect establishment dominance of the Democratic Party from outsider candidates. Which is why Bernie hasn't got a chance at the nomination unless Hillary manages to not have a massive stroke before July 25th (which is a real possibility, so there's still hope).
The Republican primary rules don't work the same way. They're actually far more "democratic" in that sense.
wharton's an opportunist, just like most of the electorate. Celebrate when the corruption benefits their myopic view of the world, bitch and moan when it doesn't.
Architects for TRUMP
Gwharton - you are actually onto something - but I highly doubt Trump is doing anything more than simply speaking toward the working class resentment.
Donald Trump and the Politics of Resentment
I seem to recall that working and middle class resentment has historically had a tendency to result in revolutions when it's been ignored. The aggressive complacency, corruption, and failures of the elite establishment are a big problem that's not going to get better by waiting for them to go away.
gwharton: "[Trump] has a personal style of flaunting his wealth and bragging about his abilities and successes. All of these things signal to the Working Class and Bourgeoisie that he is One Of Them and will protect their interests."
Sorry - that just doesn't scan for me ... you need to explain, because it just doesn't make any sense.
gwharton: " I want a president who knows when and how to do the right thing and not make decisions based on fear of the consequences."
You mean, sort of like Cheney / Bush's decision to invade Iraq based on weak intelligence -- and damn the consequences, like much greater instability in the Middle East and the meaningless deaths of uncounted individuals. Great ... policy based on the 'bigger set of balls" philosophy.
yeah - but that resentment is primarily caused by downward pressure on wages due to our continued promise of cheap goods, cheap oil, cheap single family houses on big lots, cheap roads, and cheap cars. This is why we're so wrapped up in the middle east because of our thirst for this unsustainable lifestyle - now he's planning on making deals with Russia? just postponing the inevitable.
We need oil. That's a fact. Our entire way of life is 100% dependent on cheap, safe, high-density energy sources being widely available, and there is no other option at the moment. So that leaves us with some difficult choices. We should continue to invest in finding an alternative to oil that actually works, but in the meantime, the oil must flow.
Consumerism is allowed by an oil economy, but is primarily a system of social control used to pacify the population, not an inevitable outgrowth of an oil economy itself. Replace oil with cheap, ubiquitous cold fusion, and consumerism will just continue unless we do something to change how we allow ourselves to be ruled.
And maintaining consumerism is what is supporting the credit- and fraud-driven economy that is the foundation of the current elite's power. Not oil. The elites have decided that Americans will accept any outrage against ourselves, our society, and our people as long as we can get iPhones and TVs. For a long time, they've been right about that. But we hit Peak Credit in 2008, and that system doesn't work anymore.
"consumerism is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people"
slightly modified quote.
be nice to see trump out there talking more about how he's going to invest in alternative energy sources, sort of like what obama has tried to do. it would be nice if he was turning the conversation towards divesting in consumer culture of cheap oil, cheap goods, cheap single family houses on large lots, and cheap cars. if he had any of the good attributes you assign to him (i disagree with the 'build a wall' policy) i might support him too.
I fear that Trump's primary fan base are people stuck out in the consumer sprawl wondering why the gravy train is ending - believing that if only we go after cheap oil or the immigrants or the EPA - that's how we can solve this problem. The reality is the fed can't afford to prop these places up anymore, can't afford to fight any more wars to keep energy costs low - this is why there's a huge rush back to "the city" among the elite (and knowledge class) - because they know shit's about to hit the fan.
He's speaking to this fear, but not speaking any hard truths - just promising that he'll continue to prop up these places for a little while longer...
this is why there's a huge rush back to "the city" among the elite (and knowledge class) - because they know shit's about to hit the fan.
You do realize you sound as loony bird as most Trump supporters, right?
Trump is a classic robber baron.
You do realize you sound as loony bird as most Trump supporters, right?
I guess if I'm talking to someone who doesn't operate in these markets... some cities are doing a lot better than others.
The dems and repubs are like Coke and Pepsi...Im staying home on Election Day. Not worth voting.
like Cheney / Bush's decision to invade Iraq based on weak intelligence
The Iraq Wars were premeditated choices. See The Project For A New American Century. Clinton signed the original resolution calling for regime change in Iraq. PNAC's policy document, "Rebuilding America's Defences," openly advocated for total global military domination.
downward pressure on wages
is due to, among other things, over-saturated markets for everything including labor and financial manipulation of markets (commodities) to control prices. If you buy ketchup, Goldman collects profit.
I'm staying home on Election Day
Bad idea, even considering how fraudulent elections are on so many levels. We need to act in every way that we can to effect change, even if it seems entirely useless. The Occupy movement lasted less than a year and was fully infiltrated and undermined by intelligence agencies and police but was highly successful in one thing: changing the conversation. Wealth inequality has replaced debt as the critical issue.
Wealth inequality has replaced debt as the critical issue.
What do you think causes wealth inequality in the first place, Miles? Underpants gnomes?
Credit bubbles are the primary means by which wealth is being transferred to the top tier of the elite from everybody else.
gwharton, no need to get snippy, even if those gnomes are making you itchy.
Before Occupy the conversation was we need austerity because of the debt, with austerity being just another way to profit through public spending reductions and privatization. We were getting spoon-fed a stream of bullshit that promoted and enhanced the status quo under the guise of fiscal responsibility.
That's not the conversation any more.
And credit bubbles are only part of the equation. Commodity trading and market manipulation, insurance scams (credit default swaps and such), bailouts, corporate welfare, interest rate manipulation and systemic bank fraud, political corruption, outright extortion (oBOMBaCare), etc. are all strategies for achieving the the same goal.
Again, where do you think all of things you mention are coming from? They're not unrelated phenomena. They are all driven by underlying legalized monetary credit fraud in the form of maturity transformation, securitization, and fractional-reserve lending. I used to be a futures and options trader and ran a private equity fund. I know how that works. And without the vast and ramified credit structure underpinning the whole enterprise, the derivatives markets and shadow banking system would not have ballooned into the monstrosity they are today.
This is another major reason to support populist candidates against establishment candidates: populists are generally opposed to private manipulation of the monetary system via credit. Jefferson fought Hamilton's drive to centralize banking. Andrew Jackson killed the Second Bank of the United States. Teddy Roosevelt was staunchly opposed to the creation of its replacement.
situationist: That was an interesting article you linked at the top of this page. I only just got around to reading it. Strong analysis by that author. I recommend that others posting in this thread also take a look.
Are you dense or just misdirecting?
Occupy changed the conversation.
Which is what you are trying to do. You never address the many issues raised about Trump, you only post vague generalities like 'make America great again' or he's a 'world class deal maker'. You completely ignore bankruptcy as a business model, shady (to say the least) real estate deals, and other serious issues surrounding Trump in favor of blindly partisan attacks on what you call the blindly partisan, classist patter and categorizations, etc., entirely glossing over any substantive discussion of your golden boy.
"Occupy" changed absolutely nothing. They had a few kumbaya moments on CNN, got co-opted by Soros Inc., and drifted into self-parody. They are a laughingstock group who are LARPing in 60s sit-in nostalgia land.
As for Trump's bankruptcies, do you even understand how bankruptcy or real estate development works? Companies going bankrupt is common, particularly in risky business sectors like real estate, and it's been a couple of centuries since we had debtors prisons. Or are you saying we should bring generational indenture back for old times sake?
Trump had a few businesses fail, went through bankruptcy to clear the decks, got back in the saddle, and kept going. He's now a multi-billionaire. U mad bro?
As for somebody having been through bankruptcy having a qualification for dealing massive amounts of debt that will never, ever, ever be repaid in a zillion eons, that looks like a plus, not a minus. At some point, all that bad debt has to be cleared. That's exactly what the bankruptcy process is FOR. Keeping it all on the books and pretending we are solvent is not only fraudulent and stupid, it's also preventing us from getting our national economy back on a sound footing.
Trump uses bankruptcy to enhance his personal wealth. He uses it to leverage investors and banks into concessions including interest reduction or elimination, and/or offers to buy out them out (at a steep discount, of course). You make think this is smart business, but it is exactly the kind of legalized monetary credit fraud that you were crying about a few posts up.
Doug Heller, the executive director of Consumer Watchdog, said Trump is the "most egregious, almost comical example" of the disparity between what the average American faces when going through bankruptcy and the "ease with which the very rich can move in and out of bankruptcy."
Most of the debt Trump incurred was through bonds that were sold to the public. "People knew who Donald Trump was and for that reason were willing to trust the bonds, and they got burned," LoPucki said. "The people who invested with him or based on his name lost money, but he himself came out pretty well." ABC
Creditors Call Trump Entertainment Bankruptcy Plan a ‘Charade’
So...let me get this straight...you think that Trump's ability to go through bankruptcy without being ruined is a liability when it comes to developing a strategy for rectifying the national debt in a way that isn't catastrophic for our nation? Seems like it would be an asset. We've got $19 trillion in official debt that we can't ever pay back. The USA is bankrupt, whether we want to admit it officially or not.
The current establishment strategy for dealing with that is to impoverish everyday Americans in order to enrich the elite owners of global capital. A plan that dealt with the debt the way Trump dealt with his bankruptcy would do the opposite in favor of the American people. And you think that would be a bad thing?
gwharton, The guy has no soul. Look back how he treated his older brother , and his nephew when his father passed away ( he took the money and ran). Like I said Donald is not someone I would want as leader of this Great Country.
I'm not crazy about his bankruptcies either.....he is really a Bernie Madoff in my book.
Trump impoverishes everyday Americans for his personal benefit, and you think that makes him uniquely qualified to be president. That's what the whole system does: Trump is no different. Lookin' out for #1, fuck everyone else.
Donald Trump sued for fraud in California and New York
Trump University was ‘classic’ fraud, says prosecutor
Hey, it's just business. Perfectly legal, I'm sure. At least according to his army of lawyers.
I'm not even going to begin to get into a discussion on economics with a former futures and options trader. How many people paid more because you speculated on prices?
No.
Here you go gwharton, all you have to do is go to NH:
Donald Trump's supporters can have his face tattooed on them for free
How about that Bernie Sanders!
Yes. How about Bernie. He managed to win the popular vote in NH and still lose the primary. LOL. #FeelTheBern
So you're celebrating the corrupt election system of superdelegates and using that to disparage Sanders?
Asshole.
The current establishment strategy for dealing with that is to impoverish everyday Americans in order to enrich the elite owners of global capital.
And your strategy is to put one of the elite owners of global capital in charge of it all? Brilliant.
The Superdelegate system worked exactly as it was designed to: to protect establishment dominance of the Democratic Party from outsider candidates. Which is why Bernie hasn't got a chance at the nomination unless Hillary manages to not have a massive stroke before July 25th (which is a real possibility, so there's still hope).
The Republican primary rules don't work the same way. They're actually far more "democratic" in that sense.
wharton's an opportunist, just like most of the electorate. Celebrate when the corruption benefits their myopic view of the world, bitch and moan when it doesn't.
SneakyPete: No. You've got that wrong. I'm not celebrating. I'm laughing at pretension, delusion, and absurdity. Because it's funny as hell.
cynic.
I prefer "optimistic realist." :)
You can prefer to view yourself however you like, but don't be deluded into thinking that anyone else shares your view.
About a hundred thousand primary voters in New Hampshire seem to share it. It's also been a source of endless lulz on Facebook this morning.
Now you are counting voters! So how do 150K measure against 100K?
I'm just pointing out that a hundred thousand people probably qualifies as "anybody else."
Also, I think we need to refocus this thread on the architectural implications of a Trump Presidency.
Wasted energy, never happen. The only candidate with a lower favorability rating than Hillary is Trump, by a factor of 3.
100k primary voters don't view you as cynically optimistic.
We'll see, won't we.
g wharton...I see Donald and I think Square Bob Sponge Pants.
If Trump is SpongeBob then gwharton is Patrick.
Exactly! LOL
.
babs...".that 's the ticket!"
Donald Trump dismisses audience after getting booed at the debate
Voters are losers.
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