Alert! I just got treated like a condom dispenser by a firm through their hiring process!
I interviewed with wHY Architecture last Wednesday, and they offered me a job on-the-spot. We discussed salary, benefits, review periods, and all that, and asked me to start Monday. I told them that I need some time to think about it, that I cannot make up my mind until Tuesday.
So I called Tuesday, and one of the Principles told me that they had hired someone else. When I asked if they made it a habit to offer someone a job and then hire someone else instead, he responded by saying that he did not intend to convey the impression that he was offering the position to me. His voice quivered, because I think he knew he was lying.
Well, this very unethical and unprofessional. Maybe he is afraid of rejection, and therefore only hires people who accept their brand of "on-the-spot offers." In any case, I'd suggest that anyone who interviewes this firm know that their word is as good as their denial. Take their job if they offer it on-the-spot. But if you need more time, consider it done.
If anyone from wHY reads this, I'd give them a chance to rebut. But what has happened happened. I hope they start behaving like adults. Never again will I approach tiny startup firms like this.
As we are entering a profession as professionals, I can only hope that we all try to uphold ethical values. I'd think even McDonald's wouldn't do what they did to me.
dood, good ridance to those losers. sounds like it was a good thing you didn't take that job. no one should take a job on the spot. some time to think things over is always a good thing even if it is for the night.
Yes - any legitimate firm will allow you time to make your decision as well be willing to negotiate or at least explain why their offer is set... If they are pressuring you to choose and start immediately there is something VERY WRONG going on. You are lucky to have avoided the situation.
Thats fucked up. Its funny how firms will expect you to jump at an offer yet when they are undecided they will dangle your ass for days or weeks! Consider yoursel lucky that you didn't get stuck with a firm that will be so dishonest from the get-go
i got to tell you, either i am missing something or you are being a bit naive. where in your statement above did you point out or say to this firm, "...blah, blah, blah....are you interviewing anyone else?" or how about, have you made any other offers? can i have the weekend to decide? or "you know i never expected you to make an offer now, and while i am overwhelmed, i need the weekend to consider the offer and make sure i have asked all the necessary questions, would that be alright? or "seeing as you have a need to fill the position rather quickly, can you tell me if i have any time to consider your generous offer?" or "if my not choosing to take this offer now, will you make an offer to another candidate?"
you have no right to a job, especially if after you negotiate all the particulars and then decide you need time to consider? i mean wtf, shit or get off the pot, if i was in your position, having negotiated an offer, then decided to wallow around waiting for them to beg me to come work for them, and having decided after seeing the next Rem Koolhouse[sic] walk through the door to not choose my sorry, lame ass excuse for an architect, well i would kick my dog, drown my cat, and take that .44 i have been saving for a sunny day and blow away my fifth year studio professor for telling ME i was the next Frank Geary[sic].
that's just me, or it could be the fact that your first post on this site is how someone owed you something, when in fact they really don't, that is pissing me off....
Thanks for the support everyone, well almost everyone....
betadinesutures, I should just clarify... The Principle and I didn't negotiate anything. He gave me the offer, and I told him that I'd need until Tuesday afternoon before I can make up my mind. When I said this, he started to tell me how much they admired my portfolio and was impressed my me. And he told me that his offer was just a starting point, and that by the time I call on Tuesday, he would confirm and possibly adjust the salary offer that he would make. And what happened when I called Tuesday is old news.
Keep the hope alive brothers and sisters, and don't let a bad day with immature unprofessionals ruin a perfectly good future!
see, was that so hard? two posts and now you are starting to understand...give all the facts, and not just the facts that fit your emotional ranting...
betadinesutures, what do you mean? I'm just clarifying that I didn't sit there and negotiate as you suggested. I told them that I need time to think over their offer. Is that not how it works? Or, does the Architecture Industry, much like the Airline Industry, routinely OVERBOOK?
Hey, that's a good term for this kind of situation. I'd call it Overbooking. And for those who bought the offers as if they were genuine, someone will find that it's first come, first served.
Also, I think what I said was very factual, and not mere emotional ranting. My second post was just to explain since you seemed to have assumed that I negotiated my brains out during the interview....
You got played playa! Everyone tells everyone else that they love their portfolios and that they will be right back later and that they are the best thing since sliced bread. Its all a fake game. Get over it and get used to it. Like Beta said, no one owes you anything. Not a single dime. So hope for the best and maybe next time they wont spunk your eye shut. Now dry your eyes and learn how to take it like a champ.
No way. I'm not going to take that kind of stuff. And if anyone else does that to me again, I'm going to post another Alert on Archinect.
I haven't given up on people, yet. I think some people just need to be reminded of what mistakes they've made. Hopefully, those who play with other people's lives will learn that they'll sleep better at night if they stop screwing around with people.
I interviewed with wHY Architecture last Wednesday, and they offered me a job on-the-spot. We discussed salary, benefits, review periods, and all that, and asked me to start Monday. I told them that I need some time to think about it, that I cannot make up my mind until Tuesday.
i use what you provide. only after i pointed out some issues did feel the need to clarify. my point remains the same,
1. did you ask if you were the only one they interviewed?
2. you say they offered you a job on the spot, but then in your clarification you state they told you it was just a starting point, which is it?
C. did you not expect that if they "offered" another candidate the same position, for the same amount that they would not take it? especially given the difficult economy?
D. did you assume that no matter what happened - other candidates, better work, offer for less money, someone more desparate than you - you would still have a lock on that job?
i have had several jobs and interviews, and i have never had an offer until the second interview, mostly because i defer until i have had a chance to evaluate my impressions, think of more questions, and consider what i was willing to accept or offer as compensation. however given certain circumstances, if the right offer came along, i would jump that fucker like a horny jack russell would momma's precious poodle.
I just got treated like a condom dispenser by a firm! - I MEAN WHAT IS THAT? IS THAT NOT EMOTIONAL RANTING? clearer intelligent minds can disagree about any given situation, but to put up a title of your first post, with no benefit of anyone here knowing anything you, and what you have to say or write - is fucking emotional ranting...
oh btw let me ask you one more thing, let's say Morphosis calls your cell, and you say sure Thom i will work for you, for free and be your personal bitch, have you thought about the other firm that you just said you'd consider the offer and call back tuesday, or do you tell Thom sorry, i need to wait til tuesday before i hear back on another offer from wHY Architecture?
do you tell the other firm why and who you chose to go work for?
betadinesutures, I've tried to accomodate you with additional information, but it is obvious that you are one crazy dude. Either you grew up in the ghettos, or you're on too many meds. I prefer a world that is honest and treats people with respect. It's obvious that not only do you not require respect, but you seem to expect it as status quo. Chill out. You're more upset than I am. In fact, seeing that I'm only half as outraged as you are (me, outraged by wHY; you outraged by me), I'm feeling much better.
Just move on. if they played you like this you probably didnt want to be there anyway. but please dont threaten that you will use the Archinect boards as a way to spread self-serving and maliscious rumors just to get back at a firm who ddnt hire you. thats child like. Get over yourself.
And if you still want to feel sorry for yourself then welcome to porn capital of the world Van Nuys Cali also known as Architecture!!!!! For a few more $100 bills you will take all kinds of stuff you never even imagined and then some and you will be the next cream pie baby! and if anyone does this to you again you can go tell your mommy.
but you wont be treated like a condom because in Van Nuys they give it to you raw-no rubber.
BTW on what kind of terms did you leave your last firm? Did you bail out and leave them hanging?
Suture, but don't you think information about bad firms should be shared so as to keep them in check? This could spawn a discussion on what information should be considered private vs public. I say, if the police in New York can attach a GPS unit to your car without permission nor court order because what you do on the public highway is public information (this is for real, btw), then maybe I'm not crying to mommy on the issue of firms with bad behavior.
There are two basic beliefs:
1. We are born good, and society influences us to be bad.
2. We are born bad, and society keeps us in check.
I believe in the latter, so I'm attempting to keep bad firms in check through an information sharing mechanism.
P.S., I don't feel sorry for myself. To the contrary, I feel bad for them that they have to behave this way. I myself am fine.
P.P.S., I always give 2 weeks notice when I leave.
yes some info should be shared... if a firm makes it common practice to work their hourly employees 60/ week and pays the for 40 then thats bad. if a firm is paying people below the minimum wage then yes. YES to some large issues.
if a firm didnt hire you because they hired somebody else....NO!
if a firm has crappy coffee? NO
you dont get along wiith your cubicle neighbor becuase they have high heaven BO? NO!
So please use caution becuase that XYZ firm could blackball you badly. Architecture is a very insular business. No one wants to hire some hystericl baby who is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
your post starts like this: I just got treated like a condom dispenser by a firm! - and somehow i am abrasive? i ask you pointed questions and you responded to none of them, you just "clarified" your position...your first post did not have all the pertinent, relevant facts and in fact you contradict yourself in your "clarification" so what are you saying.
I don't know why betadinesutures is being so angry with his responses. Even though the firm doesn't OWE him a job, homer has every right to be upset. There is nothing wrong with asking for some time to consider an offer, especially one given on the first interview, especially if you are interviewing with other firms.
If the firm didn't object to homer's request for more time or say that they were interviewing other people for the same position and that they may fill it before then, I think he had every right to expect the offer to be there on the day that they said he would call back.
everyplace I have interviewed has told me specifically if they were interviewing other people and that I wasn't the only person under consideration. This does not seem to be the case with Homer-according to his statement the principal clearly led him to believe that the job would still be available on Tuesday.
Ultimately, you are the one that has to live with your desicion-if you need more time you should take it. You might get burned-but its risk that some people have to take to make sure that they are making the right career choice.
On a side note, I think a lot of interns get caught in bad deals because they feel they have to accept an on-the-spot offer without considering their options.
again-considering what has happened you are probably better off. Consider this a hard lesson learned and move on with the job hunt!
Homer you should read some Kafka. The door was open and you chose not to walk through it. It sounds like someone else was able to walk through that same door. The architecture firm was just the doorman. How can you blame them?
it's funny how personal responsibilty is not an issue here kissy. from the topic heading, to failing to ask the simple, basic, and expected questions, and somehow i - i, as me the devil's advocate - how i am responsible for not only his decision to think about it and to inform him of the better candidate, willing to take the position based on the terms presented. please tell me what other business or your own personal decision runs this way?
i dont think that betadinesutures is in anyway being abrasive. indeed shit or get off the pot! and the world dont owe no architect a damn thing- especially to a petulant architect
What else does a rookie poster expect when they title a thread in such a premeditatively inciteful way? They set themselves to get torched.
And also, i think that they also ask for fire when they use Archinect to get back at some firm like some petty paramour who has been rejected. The audacity to use Archinect as a way to out firms!
Did homer ever stop to think that maybe the person who was hired was simply more talented and a better fit for that particular firm? Maybe homer, no matter how pretty they think their portfolio is and how talented they think they are, Homer just simply is not the second coming of FLW.
Surely the 'tude didnt help their case.
better luck next time and now you have a great learning experience to look back on.
...i don't have a big problem with the firm hiring somone else, they never stated they would 'hold' the position for you (if they did state they would hold the position, it is a big problem, oral contract=legally binding), and it is their perogitive to hire whomever they see fit/whenever they see fit.
i do have a big problem with them not contacting homer and letting him know the position was no longer available when they hired someone else. it is extremely unprofessional. if this is how they run the hiring process, the rest of the firm dynamics are probably about the same, count yourself lucky you didn't get involved.
there are plenty of good places,
good luck.
Storytime, i was once offered a position and i would have had to move 6 hours away. i was looking for apartments, getting ready to move yada yada. I only had a verbal agreement that I had the position. A friend suggested I get something in writing before I move out there. I e-mail the firm, e-mail was their chosen form of communication for us to correspond, to get a written confirmation and a few answers to some random questions. I didn't get a response so I called. Sure enough THEY CHANGED THIER MIND and didn't bother to let me know. Quite uncomfortable. This story took place over mid-september 2001, spanning the WTC tragedy, so I can't blame them for changing thier mind, but I can for neglecting to let me know!
good luck with the job search homer.
careful careful careful with gossip on this site, homer...I've been burned before (or managed to almost burn someone else). We live and learn. news travels fast in our inbred little world. If I were you I would get a new screen name ASAP.
For giving and taking firm information in a much more anonymous, and more constructive fashion, see www.insidearch.org Meant for interns but good for everybody. So homer if you do get blackballed, you can find a firm across the country where they won't know any better.
I'm not quite sure what al the fuss is about. I got overbooked by the firm, but they didn't tell me. They told me I have the job; I told them I need til Tuesday; they said fine. They gave me a salary offer as a starting point, and said that they can work a higher amount when we talk. on Tuesday. Pretty simple. And I feel I have the right to discuss the matter openly given the unethical nature of their behavior.
As far as being blackballed, that's very unfortunate. I'm going to keep reporting unethical firms. I'll try to use www.insidearch.org as much as possible, but if I can't, I'll post here. Society has always taken a condenscending view toward whistleblowers, descenters, and protesters, but I try to do what I believed in, even if I take a social hit for it. Anyway, if I get blackballed for this, how ironic: screwing over those they just screwed.... Thanks for the warning, tho. I appreciate it.
betadinesutures and suture, i think one totally deserves to be told the truth to, and if that does not happen it is wrong.
when people like you take this kind of shit as acceptable behaviour, this is what happens.
Maybe you have not been in this position before to understand, or its just that you work at this shitty firm, or routinely practise such things.
i've read this whole thread...and i'm completely confused..
how exactly were you treated like a condom dispenser...
what does that even mean?
on this situation being unethical?...i don't see it....the firm
made an offer....but didn't say they would stop interviewing
until you accepted. they had no guarantee that you'd accept
so they kept their options open and obviously someone
else was willing to accept on the spot. OR someone else
had interviewed before you and actuall asked for some time
and came back before you did to accept...
imo an offer is not a guarantee until you have written confirmation
of a salary and a starting date signed by someone that matters.
or you're in the door on your first day.
this is architecture...and this is job interviewing 101...
i'm really confused as to why you all don't see this as an ethical breach. i can accept lars' scenario as to what actually happened, but a pretty basic trust was (apparently) established, one that shouldn't have been treated so casually (again apparently) by the firm. by all means, the firm needs to look out for itself, but they just can't go around making offers on the spot, hoping to fill the spot as quickly as possible, and then just blow off the consequences of their actions.
just to take it out of the context of a specific firm and/or person, here are the facts as we know them:
firm and potential employee talk. good vibe, mutual interest, and a proposal is made by the firm: we are offering you a job, for xxx terms. (not considering you, but here is a bona fide offer)
employee says: it sounds good, can i think on it for a few days?
firm: yes, take a few days
few days later:
employee: well, i've made a decision. i've turned down 4 other firms to come work for you.
firm: well, that's great. except, we forgot to tell you that we hired someone else....
can you honestly say you would stand for that kind of behavior? if the firm needed to hire someone very quickly (their perrogative), then why not just say so in the first place? 'hey, we have to fill this by monday, so can you give us an answer by saturday afternoon instead of tuesday?' or, if you (as the firm)are scoping out several people, use that as a leveraging technique during the selling phase, but for god's sake you do not make a binding offer to someone unless you intend to make good on it. at least that's how people who have some ethical backbone behave.
if i pulled this with any of the people i've hired, i'd expect to be flamed on archinect....
While I agree that it's nice to have time to consider a job offer that is no right you have. I guess it sounds like they at least implied to Homer that he could have that week to decide. My question is why do you need so much time to decide? Were you holding out hope on a different firm you interviewed with? I'm skeptical that your ethics are any superior to theirs. Giving both sides the benefit of doubt overall, it sounds like a big case of mis-communication. From what I've read I cannot fault either wHY architecture or Homer. Take it as a lesson learned about interviewing.
larslarson the point is- the least the firm could have done was communicate to homer that the position was filled. Is it too much to ask that professionals act accordingly? C'mon shouldn't the elders set the example? Having called homer in, given him an interview, made him an offer and followed it up with "this is a starting point", wouldn't this lead one to believe that on tuesday more negotiations were going to happen? The least they could have done was call him before tuesday and let him know the position was no longer available...no? When homer said he needed til tuesday is the moment they should've indicated the position needed to be filled immediately. this would have been honest and upfront, they way they handled it was sneaky. An offer is exactly that...an offer. They offered him the position... to him..they offered it...the negotiation was on going, never was there made mention that "we need an answer now" had they said this there would be no misunderstanding.
This is social skills 101. There seems to be a few of you posting that don't understand this and I believe this only reflects the "dumbing down" of our profession. This may be acceptable behavior for snoop dog and dr dre but for professionals, it's unacceptable.
Homer have you contacted any other principle within the firm or human resources....does anyone else there know this is how the operate?
let me just clear this up. when homer said that he was "...treated like a condom dispenser..." he clearly meant that wHY architects offered him money in exchange for a prophylactic. when homer said he needed time to mull it over they proceeded to vandalize him, impolitelty and unceremoniously, with vulgar graffiti.
interviews and job offers are on a rolling basis. There is no common starting point. if someone interviews afterwards and they are a better fit for the company and accept the offer first, then i see nothing wrong with the other candidtes who will need to keep looking for a job. It would have been nice of the firm to call Homer, but its not a requirement. this is the real world and unless you have an offer of first refusal, getting beat by the early bird happens all the time. grow up and be more mature than to call it a condom story.
imagine if i told that hot chick at the party who was all over me to put her shirt back on wait till next week because i needed some time to think?
gimmie a break suture...are you saying that this comes down to wHY feeling like some rejected insecure topless hot chick at some frat party? if so than you've only proved my point that they should've acted professionally and given homer a heads up phone call.
but suture, this isn't a bar and homer isn't a hot chick (well, ok, i've got no first hand knowledge, but...)
the point several of us are trying to make is: if you, as an owner (and i am) are going out to interview several people, tell each of them that up front. look at everyone. rank the candidates internally and then make the offer to your top desired person. if they don't accept, move on down the list. but if you offer all of them a job and then want to see who acts first... what the ^&%&^ kind of way is that to conduct business.
i agree with the fact that homey's job is not secure until he is in there signing papers. i get that. maybe homey was a bit niave and didn't ask all the right questions, but that's no reason to take advantage of him from, what i assume is an older and wiser person running a progessional business. every place i have work at has conducted an interview process just as g-love is describing. it is respectful. as someone said earlier, it is an insular business. your actions have consequences. is this the word you want on the street about your firm?
It is unprofessional of this company to hire somebody else when the offer has been left open to you, Homer.
Unfortunately by requesting time to think it over, you allowed the interviewer time to consider his position in light of alternative candidates.
The perception from the employer may have been that you were not keen or enthusiastic enough – anyone who takes a week to weigh up the offer is a bit slow.
heywood...that's quite amusing..sort of what i was thinking..
didn't get the metaphor...
and to others..
i understand the potential unethical point...
i guess i wonder what was communicated at the end of the
interview...not knowing what was promised and such...
as far as the firm calling him back...i guess i could see
that..although if this firm is a boutique firm..there are
a limited number of people available for this task..and
if their design is any good than they may feel as though
they don't need to...
not being in the room..and judging by the principal's reaction
to homer's call..is it possible that homer misunderstood what
was being offered ? and how long that offer would stand...
i think it's a great idea to post bad (and good, for that matter) interviewing experiences on archinect. if a firm is consistently asshole-ish in its hiring practices, people will know to stay away, and vice versa.
it seems to me that suture and beta just expect less from people... that they have, like several people i know, already become entirely jaded with all things business-related. i can't tell you how humorous (but unfortunate) i find it to be when a group of people under the age of 25 sit around and share their hard-earned wisdom of 'the way business works' with one another.
have some faith in the goodwill of others, and don't let one or a couple of bad experiences make you accept being treated like shit. i think a forum like this to share such experiences is an awesome resource, and by taking advantage of it we can be all be part of the solution.
Don't post bad interview experience out of spite. It's obvious that those who don't get that killer job are going to be bitter. It’s pointless winging, move on to the next opportunity.
i guess i'm giving homer the benefit of the doubt and hope that he is telling the truth. i think even if you are a boutique you should still give those who you devouted a half hour to hour for an interview a 30 second call to say sorry we gave the job to someone else. i worked in a 3 person firm for a few years and we would still call people back.
...sometimes when you walk into a stall and you see piss all over the seat and floor, you don't use it anyway, you go to the next one and count yourself lucky you saw the situation before you sat down.....
I just got treated like a condom dispenser by a firm!
Alert! I just got treated like a condom dispenser by a firm through their hiring process!
I interviewed with wHY Architecture last Wednesday, and they offered me a job on-the-spot. We discussed salary, benefits, review periods, and all that, and asked me to start Monday. I told them that I need some time to think about it, that I cannot make up my mind until Tuesday.
So I called Tuesday, and one of the Principles told me that they had hired someone else. When I asked if they made it a habit to offer someone a job and then hire someone else instead, he responded by saying that he did not intend to convey the impression that he was offering the position to me. His voice quivered, because I think he knew he was lying.
Well, this very unethical and unprofessional. Maybe he is afraid of rejection, and therefore only hires people who accept their brand of "on-the-spot offers." In any case, I'd suggest that anyone who interviewes this firm know that their word is as good as their denial. Take their job if they offer it on-the-spot. But if you need more time, consider it done.
If anyone from wHY reads this, I'd give them a chance to rebut. But what has happened happened. I hope they start behaving like adults. Never again will I approach tiny startup firms like this.
As we are entering a profession as professionals, I can only hope that we all try to uphold ethical values. I'd think even McDonald's wouldn't do what they did to me.
dood, good ridance to those losers. sounds like it was a good thing you didn't take that job. no one should take a job on the spot. some time to think things over is always a good thing even if it is for the night.
Yes - any legitimate firm will allow you time to make your decision as well be willing to negotiate or at least explain why their offer is set... If they are pressuring you to choose and start immediately there is something VERY WRONG going on. You are lucky to have avoided the situation.
Thats fucked up. Its funny how firms will expect you to jump at an offer yet when they are undecided they will dangle your ass for days or weeks! Consider yoursel lucky that you didn't get stuck with a firm that will be so dishonest from the get-go
i got to tell you, either i am missing something or you are being a bit naive. where in your statement above did you point out or say to this firm, "...blah, blah, blah....are you interviewing anyone else?" or how about, have you made any other offers? can i have the weekend to decide? or "you know i never expected you to make an offer now, and while i am overwhelmed, i need the weekend to consider the offer and make sure i have asked all the necessary questions, would that be alright? or "seeing as you have a need to fill the position rather quickly, can you tell me if i have any time to consider your generous offer?" or "if my not choosing to take this offer now, will you make an offer to another candidate?"
you have no right to a job, especially if after you negotiate all the particulars and then decide you need time to consider? i mean wtf, shit or get off the pot, if i was in your position, having negotiated an offer, then decided to wallow around waiting for them to beg me to come work for them, and having decided after seeing the next Rem Koolhouse[sic] walk through the door to not choose my sorry, lame ass excuse for an architect, well i would kick my dog, drown my cat, and take that .44 i have been saving for a sunny day and blow away my fifth year studio professor for telling ME i was the next Frank Geary[sic].
that's just me, or it could be the fact that your first post on this site is how someone owed you something, when in fact they really don't, that is pissing me off....
now i am off to take my meds. Bitch.
Thanks for the support everyone, well almost everyone....
betadinesutures, I should just clarify... The Principle and I didn't negotiate anything. He gave me the offer, and I told him that I'd need until Tuesday afternoon before I can make up my mind. When I said this, he started to tell me how much they admired my portfolio and was impressed my me. And he told me that his offer was just a starting point, and that by the time I call on Tuesday, he would confirm and possibly adjust the salary offer that he would make. And what happened when I called Tuesday is old news.
Keep the hope alive brothers and sisters, and don't let a bad day with immature unprofessionals ruin a perfectly good future!
see, was that so hard? two posts and now you are starting to understand...give all the facts, and not just the facts that fit your emotional ranting...
betadinesutures, what do you mean? I'm just clarifying that I didn't sit there and negotiate as you suggested. I told them that I need time to think over their offer. Is that not how it works? Or, does the Architecture Industry, much like the Airline Industry, routinely OVERBOOK?
Hey, that's a good term for this kind of situation. I'd call it Overbooking. And for those who bought the offers as if they were genuine, someone will find that it's first come, first served.
Also, I think what I said was very factual, and not mere emotional ranting. My second post was just to explain since you seemed to have assumed that I negotiated my brains out during the interview....
Homey,
You got played playa! Everyone tells everyone else that they love their portfolios and that they will be right back later and that they are the best thing since sliced bread. Its all a fake game. Get over it and get used to it. Like Beta said, no one owes you anything. Not a single dime. So hope for the best and maybe next time they wont spunk your eye shut. Now dry your eyes and learn how to take it like a champ.
No way. I'm not going to take that kind of stuff. And if anyone else does that to me again, I'm going to post another Alert on Archinect.
I haven't given up on people, yet. I think some people just need to be reminded of what mistakes they've made. Hopefully, those who play with other people's lives will learn that they'll sleep better at night if they stop screwing around with people.
I interviewed with wHY Architecture last Wednesday, and they offered me a job on-the-spot. We discussed salary, benefits, review periods, and all that, and asked me to start Monday. I told them that I need some time to think about it, that I cannot make up my mind until Tuesday.
i use what you provide. only after i pointed out some issues did feel the need to clarify. my point remains the same,
1. did you ask if you were the only one they interviewed?
2. you say they offered you a job on the spot, but then in your clarification you state they told you it was just a starting point, which is it?
C. did you not expect that if they "offered" another candidate the same position, for the same amount that they would not take it? especially given the difficult economy?
D. did you assume that no matter what happened - other candidates, better work, offer for less money, someone more desparate than you - you would still have a lock on that job?
i have had several jobs and interviews, and i have never had an offer until the second interview, mostly because i defer until i have had a chance to evaluate my impressions, think of more questions, and consider what i was willing to accept or offer as compensation. however given certain circumstances, if the right offer came along, i would jump that fucker like a horny jack russell would momma's precious poodle.
I just got treated like a condom dispenser by a firm! - I MEAN WHAT IS THAT? IS THAT NOT EMOTIONAL RANTING? clearer intelligent minds can disagree about any given situation, but to put up a title of your first post, with no benefit of anyone here knowing anything you, and what you have to say or write - is fucking emotional ranting...
oh btw let me ask you one more thing, let's say Morphosis calls your cell, and you say sure Thom i will work for you, for free and be your personal bitch, have you thought about the other firm that you just said you'd consider the offer and call back tuesday, or do you tell Thom sorry, i need to wait til tuesday before i hear back on another offer from wHY Architecture?
do you tell the other firm why and who you chose to go work for?
betadinesutures, I've tried to accomodate you with additional information, but it is obvious that you are one crazy dude. Either you grew up in the ghettos, or you're on too many meds. I prefer a world that is honest and treats people with respect. It's obvious that not only do you not require respect, but you seem to expect it as status quo. Chill out. You're more upset than I am. In fact, seeing that I'm only half as outraged as you are (me, outraged by wHY; you outraged by me), I'm feeling much better.
Homer,
Just move on. if they played you like this you probably didnt want to be there anyway. but please dont threaten that you will use the Archinect boards as a way to spread self-serving and maliscious rumors just to get back at a firm who ddnt hire you. thats child like. Get over yourself.
And if you still want to feel sorry for yourself then welcome to porn capital of the world Van Nuys Cali also known as Architecture!!!!! For a few more $100 bills you will take all kinds of stuff you never even imagined and then some and you will be the next cream pie baby! and if anyone does this to you again you can go tell your mommy.
but you wont be treated like a condom because in Van Nuys they give it to you raw-no rubber.
BTW on what kind of terms did you leave your last firm? Did you bail out and leave them hanging?
omer, i gather that when someone posts a topic titled as yours, for the first time, most would be pissed too. is answering the questions to difficult?
easy question:
on what kind of terms did you leave your last firm?
Suture, but don't you think information about bad firms should be shared so as to keep them in check? This could spawn a discussion on what information should be considered private vs public. I say, if the police in New York can attach a GPS unit to your car without permission nor court order because what you do on the public highway is public information (this is for real, btw), then maybe I'm not crying to mommy on the issue of firms with bad behavior.
There are two basic beliefs:
1. We are born good, and society influences us to be bad.
2. We are born bad, and society keeps us in check.
I believe in the latter, so I'm attempting to keep bad firms in check through an information sharing mechanism.
P.S., I don't feel sorry for myself. To the contrary, I feel bad for them that they have to behave this way. I myself am fine.
P.P.S., I always give 2 weeks notice when I leave.
betadinesutures, I don't knwo what to say. You are extremely abrasive, and I'm sure you know it.
yes some info should be shared... if a firm makes it common practice to work their hourly employees 60/ week and pays the for 40 then thats bad. if a firm is paying people below the minimum wage then yes. YES to some large issues.
if a firm didnt hire you because they hired somebody else....NO!
if a firm has crappy coffee? NO
you dont get along wiith your cubicle neighbor becuase they have high heaven BO? NO!
So please use caution becuase that XYZ firm could blackball you badly. Architecture is a very insular business. No one wants to hire some hystericl baby who is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
your post starts like this: I just got treated like a condom dispenser by a firm! - and somehow i am abrasive? i ask you pointed questions and you responded to none of them, you just "clarified" your position...your first post did not have all the pertinent, relevant facts and in fact you contradict yourself in your "clarification" so what are you saying.
btw suture is all on the ball.
I don't know why betadinesutures is being so angry with his responses. Even though the firm doesn't OWE him a job, homer has every right to be upset. There is nothing wrong with asking for some time to consider an offer, especially one given on the first interview, especially if you are interviewing with other firms.
If the firm didn't object to homer's request for more time or say that they were interviewing other people for the same position and that they may fill it before then, I think he had every right to expect the offer to be there on the day that they said he would call back.
everyplace I have interviewed has told me specifically if they were interviewing other people and that I wasn't the only person under consideration. This does not seem to be the case with Homer-according to his statement the principal clearly led him to believe that the job would still be available on Tuesday.
Ultimately, you are the one that has to live with your desicion-if you need more time you should take it. You might get burned-but its risk that some people have to take to make sure that they are making the right career choice.
On a side note, I think a lot of interns get caught in bad deals because they feel they have to accept an on-the-spot offer without considering their options.
again-considering what has happened you are probably better off. Consider this a hard lesson learned and move on with the job hunt!
So did you take the job?
Homer you should read some Kafka. The door was open and you chose not to walk through it. It sounds like someone else was able to walk through that same door. The architecture firm was just the doorman. How can you blame them?
it's funny how personal responsibilty is not an issue here kissy. from the topic heading, to failing to ask the simple, basic, and expected questions, and somehow i - i, as me the devil's advocate - how i am responsible for not only his decision to think about it and to inform him of the better candidate, willing to take the position based on the terms presented. please tell me what other business or your own personal decision runs this way?
i dont think that betadinesutures is in anyway being abrasive. indeed shit or get off the pot! and the world dont owe no architect a damn thing- especially to a petulant architect
What else does a rookie poster expect when they title a thread in such a premeditatively inciteful way? They set themselves to get torched.
And also, i think that they also ask for fire when they use Archinect to get back at some firm like some petty paramour who has been rejected. The audacity to use Archinect as a way to out firms!
Did homer ever stop to think that maybe the person who was hired was simply more talented and a better fit for that particular firm? Maybe homer, no matter how pretty they think their portfolio is and how talented they think they are, Homer just simply is not the second coming of FLW.
Surely the 'tude didnt help their case.
better luck next time and now you have a great learning experience to look back on.
Cheers!
...i don't have a big problem with the firm hiring somone else, they never stated they would 'hold' the position for you (if they did state they would hold the position, it is a big problem, oral contract=legally binding), and it is their perogitive to hire whomever they see fit/whenever they see fit.
i do have a big problem with them not contacting homer and letting him know the position was no longer available when they hired someone else. it is extremely unprofessional. if this is how they run the hiring process, the rest of the firm dynamics are probably about the same, count yourself lucky you didn't get involved.
there are plenty of good places,
good luck.
Storytime, i was once offered a position and i would have had to move 6 hours away. i was looking for apartments, getting ready to move yada yada. I only had a verbal agreement that I had the position. A friend suggested I get something in writing before I move out there. I e-mail the firm, e-mail was their chosen form of communication for us to correspond, to get a written confirmation and a few answers to some random questions. I didn't get a response so I called. Sure enough THEY CHANGED THIER MIND and didn't bother to let me know. Quite uncomfortable. This story took place over mid-september 2001, spanning the WTC tragedy, so I can't blame them for changing thier mind, but I can for neglecting to let me know!
good luck with the job search homer.
careful careful careful with gossip on this site, homer...I've been burned before (or managed to almost burn someone else). We live and learn. news travels fast in our inbred little world. If I were you I would get a new screen name ASAP.
For giving and taking firm information in a much more anonymous, and more constructive fashion, see www.insidearch.org Meant for interns but good for everybody. So homer if you do get blackballed, you can find a firm across the country where they won't know any better.
I'm not quite sure what al the fuss is about. I got overbooked by the firm, but they didn't tell me. They told me I have the job; I told them I need til Tuesday; they said fine. They gave me a salary offer as a starting point, and said that they can work a higher amount when we talk. on Tuesday. Pretty simple. And I feel I have the right to discuss the matter openly given the unethical nature of their behavior.
As far as being blackballed, that's very unfortunate. I'm going to keep reporting unethical firms. I'll try to use www.insidearch.org as much as possible, but if I can't, I'll post here. Society has always taken a condenscending view toward whistleblowers, descenters, and protesters, but I try to do what I believed in, even if I take a social hit for it. Anyway, if I get blackballed for this, how ironic: screwing over those they just screwed.... Thanks for the warning, tho. I appreciate it.
betadinesutures and suture, i think one totally deserves to be told the truth to, and if that does not happen it is wrong.
when people like you take this kind of shit as acceptable behaviour, this is what happens.
Maybe you have not been in this position before to understand, or its just that you work at this shitty firm, or routinely practise such things.
wow
Homer, they opened a door for you.
i've read this whole thread...and i'm completely confused..
how exactly were you treated like a condom dispenser...
what does that even mean?
on this situation being unethical?...i don't see it....the firm
made an offer....but didn't say they would stop interviewing
until you accepted. they had no guarantee that you'd accept
so they kept their options open and obviously someone
else was willing to accept on the spot. OR someone else
had interviewed before you and actuall asked for some time
and came back before you did to accept...
imo an offer is not a guarantee until you have written confirmation
of a salary and a starting date signed by someone that matters.
or you're in the door on your first day.
this is architecture...and this is job interviewing 101...
beta, suture, and lars-
i'm really confused as to why you all don't see this as an ethical breach. i can accept lars' scenario as to what actually happened, but a pretty basic trust was (apparently) established, one that shouldn't have been treated so casually (again apparently) by the firm. by all means, the firm needs to look out for itself, but they just can't go around making offers on the spot, hoping to fill the spot as quickly as possible, and then just blow off the consequences of their actions.
just to take it out of the context of a specific firm and/or person, here are the facts as we know them:
firm and potential employee talk. good vibe, mutual interest, and a proposal is made by the firm: we are offering you a job, for xxx terms. (not considering you, but here is a bona fide offer)
employee says: it sounds good, can i think on it for a few days?
firm: yes, take a few days
few days later:
employee: well, i've made a decision. i've turned down 4 other firms to come work for you.
firm: well, that's great. except, we forgot to tell you that we hired someone else....
can you honestly say you would stand for that kind of behavior? if the firm needed to hire someone very quickly (their perrogative), then why not just say so in the first place? 'hey, we have to fill this by monday, so can you give us an answer by saturday afternoon instead of tuesday?' or, if you (as the firm)are scoping out several people, use that as a leveraging technique during the selling phase, but for god's sake you do not make a binding offer to someone unless you intend to make good on it. at least that's how people who have some ethical backbone behave.
if i pulled this with any of the people i've hired, i'd expect to be flamed on archinect....
While I agree that it's nice to have time to consider a job offer that is no right you have. I guess it sounds like they at least implied to Homer that he could have that week to decide. My question is why do you need so much time to decide? Were you holding out hope on a different firm you interviewed with? I'm skeptical that your ethics are any superior to theirs. Giving both sides the benefit of doubt overall, it sounds like a big case of mis-communication. From what I've read I cannot fault either wHY architecture or Homer. Take it as a lesson learned about interviewing.
larslarson the point is- the least the firm could have done was communicate to homer that the position was filled. Is it too much to ask that professionals act accordingly? C'mon shouldn't the elders set the example? Having called homer in, given him an interview, made him an offer and followed it up with "this is a starting point", wouldn't this lead one to believe that on tuesday more negotiations were going to happen? The least they could have done was call him before tuesday and let him know the position was no longer available...no? When homer said he needed til tuesday is the moment they should've indicated the position needed to be filled immediately. this would have been honest and upfront, they way they handled it was sneaky. An offer is exactly that...an offer. They offered him the position... to him..they offered it...the negotiation was on going, never was there made mention that "we need an answer now" had they said this there would be no misunderstanding.
This is social skills 101. There seems to be a few of you posting that don't understand this and I believe this only reflects the "dumbing down" of our profession. This may be acceptable behavior for snoop dog and dr dre but for professionals, it's unacceptable.
Homer have you contacted any other principle within the firm or human resources....does anyone else there know this is how the operate?
let me just clear this up. when homer said that he was "...treated like a condom dispenser..." he clearly meant that wHY architects offered him money in exchange for a prophylactic. when homer said he needed time to mull it over they proceeded to vandalize him, impolitelty and unceremoniously, with vulgar graffiti.
interviews and job offers are on a rolling basis. There is no common starting point. if someone interviews afterwards and they are a better fit for the company and accept the offer first, then i see nothing wrong with the other candidtes who will need to keep looking for a job. It would have been nice of the firm to call Homer, but its not a requirement. this is the real world and unless you have an offer of first refusal, getting beat by the early bird happens all the time. grow up and be more mature than to call it a condom story.
imagine if i told that hot chick at the party who was all over me to put her shirt back on wait till next week because i needed some time to think?
gimmie a break suture...are you saying that this comes down to wHY feeling like some rejected insecure topless hot chick at some frat party? if so than you've only proved my point that they should've acted professionally and given homer a heads up phone call.
but suture, this isn't a bar and homer isn't a hot chick (well, ok, i've got no first hand knowledge, but...)
the point several of us are trying to make is: if you, as an owner (and i am) are going out to interview several people, tell each of them that up front. look at everyone. rank the candidates internally and then make the offer to your top desired person. if they don't accept, move on down the list. but if you offer all of them a job and then want to see who acts first... what the ^&%&^ kind of way is that to conduct business.
at least that's my 'real world'.
i agree with the fact that homey's job is not secure until he is in there signing papers. i get that. maybe homey was a bit niave and didn't ask all the right questions, but that's no reason to take advantage of him from, what i assume is an older and wiser person running a progessional business. every place i have work at has conducted an interview process just as g-love is describing. it is respectful. as someone said earlier, it is an insular business. your actions have consequences. is this the word you want on the street about your firm?
It is unprofessional of this company to hire somebody else when the offer has been left open to you, Homer.
Unfortunately by requesting time to think it over, you allowed the interviewer time to consider his position in light of alternative candidates.
The perception from the employer may have been that you were not keen or enthusiastic enough – anyone who takes a week to weigh up the offer is a bit slow.
a week is a long time homey.
heywood...that's quite amusing..sort of what i was thinking..
didn't get the metaphor...
and to others..
i understand the potential unethical point...
i guess i wonder what was communicated at the end of the
interview...not knowing what was promised and such...
as far as the firm calling him back...i guess i could see
that..although if this firm is a boutique firm..there are
a limited number of people available for this task..and
if their design is any good than they may feel as though
they don't need to...
not being in the room..and judging by the principal's reaction
to homer's call..is it possible that homer misunderstood what
was being offered ? and how long that offer would stand...
i think it's a great idea to post bad (and good, for that matter) interviewing experiences on archinect. if a firm is consistently asshole-ish in its hiring practices, people will know to stay away, and vice versa.
it seems to me that suture and beta just expect less from people... that they have, like several people i know, already become entirely jaded with all things business-related. i can't tell you how humorous (but unfortunate) i find it to be when a group of people under the age of 25 sit around and share their hard-earned wisdom of 'the way business works' with one another.
have some faith in the goodwill of others, and don't let one or a couple of bad experiences make you accept being treated like shit. i think a forum like this to share such experiences is an awesome resource, and by taking advantage of it we can be all be part of the solution.
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Don't post bad interview experience out of spite. It's obvious that those who don't get that killer job are going to be bitter. It’s pointless winging, move on to the next opportunity.
i guess i'm giving homer the benefit of the doubt and hope that he is telling the truth. i think even if you are a boutique you should still give those who you devouted a half hour to hour for an interview a 30 second call to say sorry we gave the job to someone else. i worked in a 3 person firm for a few years and we would still call people back.
whingeing
i say excrete or relinquish the lavatory
nice mevers.....
...sometimes when you walk into a stall and you see piss all over the seat and floor, you don't use it anyway, you go to the next one and count yourself lucky you saw the situation before you sat down.....
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.