Geez, so much speculation. This whole thing was rather traumatic, so I don't want to revisit, but I should say some things to clarify, since so many of you have taken the time to read this stuff and reply.
One week for me to decide doesn't seem that long. In my experience, from quickest to slowest, firms have offered me a job:
- on the phone when they call me the day after receiving my resume
- to 2 weeks after the interview.
So, during the interview with this firm, I told them that I'm done interviewing, and that I'm waiting word from one more firm to see what their offer is. Now, this may sound like I just rejected them, but here are the facts:
- I said that I would have to first find out what the other firm was offering, because I'll find out by Tuesday. I said that even if they offered a couple thousand more, I would work for wHY because I liked x, y, and z about them.
- Since they wanted me to start Monday, I said that I'd like to start Wednesday, contingent on my deciding on Tuesday.
- He agreed. He could have said no, that he needs the decision now. He could have taken back the offer, saying that he might hire someone else. But he didn't. He agreed to Tuesday for my decision.
That's why when this happened, I felt like a condom dispenser--disposible and replaceable by the next. Also, I felt f***ed in the ass.
As for the Hot Chick analogy, suture seems to assume that job offers are on a rolling basis. I think in a professional world, (1) the employer tells all candidates that they will be taking two weeks for the whole process, (2) offer the job to the most qualified during that two weeks, (2) if they don't take it, offer it to the next, (3) and finally when the best one takes it, tell all others that they didn't get the job. Unlike promiscuous dating, the terms should be clear. Anyway, why do you let strange girls climb all over you and take her shirt off? This is a profession, not a bar scene, as g-love said.
chow, this firm is very small: 2 principles, 2 employees, and 1 intern. So there's really no one else to talk to. I wish there were, because I think the others would have been appalled. But maybe it's like the famous experiment with the people in white coats injecting pain on subjects--their sense of morality that society taught them is suspended by the local group dynamics. Anyway, thanks for your support.
spaceman, yes, they opened the door. They should have also told me that when they agreed to a few days for me to decide, that the door could close without notice. They didn't. I really wouldn't have minded knowing--if that were the case, I would gladly have declined on the spot. It's just that I trusted their word at face value.
And to all the others who have read and posted, I'm sorry I can't reply to each of you--too much typing. But thanks, regardless of your position. I'm just glad that I'm not alone in believing that we should raise this profession to a certain level. And I know some of you disagree on several points, but it's good to know where we all stand.
Oops! Huge mistake! I got the dates wrong. It was Friday afternoon, not Wednesday. So, basically, I had the weekend, Monday, and part of Tuesday to decide. Sorry (I've been interviewing alot).
i must tell you this all could have been avoided had you posted, the entire unedited portion above. though i think some might think that there is another side to this, that won't get told, because it's not worth their time...
the real happy ending was firm XYZ glazing homer like a donut, both eyes dried shut, icicles on the chin.
let this petulant's whinny story serve as a warning to all-haviing a stiff upper lip and the ability to dodge the highway traffic are some good qualities for architects to have.
Homer- what will happen to you when mommy takes away your sippy cup or worse yet when a client decides to give a comission to a competitor firm simply because that other firm took them to a bar and then sent them a bottle of 30 year whiskey? Check out the GSA competition story on the news section? should the loosing firm out the winning firm here? read the story-they were shafted worse than you ever will be. Will you once again seek solace in abrassive Archinect discussions? Get real.
if you are a dude or a chick- please put your juck strap right because its cup check time. and go dry your eyes.
coach suture, you're a real hardass. but you should have done it like this "WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION!!?"
and who says chicks? are you from the jersey shore?
take your own advice. "grow up and be more mature"
It was immediately obvious that at least betadinesutures was more involved than he/she immediately let on due to the overbearing and unprovoked harshness in the above posts.
For all I know suture may be a director of wHY, but then again maybe that are one in the same - you cant have betadinsutures without suture.
nope not one in the same, although i admit it is eerie...
i will say this one time and one time only. if you look at how this persons story has changed each time they responded how can one not be suspicious as to their real motives. not to mention their first post on this site is how he was used like a condom?? at least follow his changing responses each time more and more info is revealed, yet if they posted what they posted last this kind of shit would not have happened. besides i still maintain this is rather one sided.
betadine, it was a condom dispenser.....and the 'more info' is just clarifications, which people like you are asking
i think he is just wanting to divulge his shitty experience with us, so instead of giving him the benefit of doubt, you just hammer away at the negative. That would lead someone to believe that you might be one of the principles of the firm, or if not (gasp, hold your breath) you might have a company of your own and treat people like the boss here
Im sorry, but i would tend to say that once many people like you get together, a profession like architecture gets to be the dirty, underpaid and fake mess that we find ourselves again.
listen doc, i got the shaft much like the newb did, but i did not come here and explain in half truths and contradictory statements, clarifications suck because inevitable you have to wind up explaining why you didn't say what really happened, only it's disjointed by several comments and further requires more explanation until we arrive at some "truth" which of course we have to rely on that the newb, who never posted dick, before this, is not talking ou of the side of his/her ass.
so here's a hypothetical for you, what if one of the principals comes here and contradicts everything above, are you less likely to believe them because of this persons seemingly earnest posts to the contrary?
look newb, compose your thoughts next time and when you write something that is design to slant people to your position and against another firm, tell the whole story, not something so fcuking piecemeal..
Why does "betadinesutures" have "Sutures" in his ID? Same person? Or partners?
beta, my story didn't change. And it is not piecemeal: I'm just adding details to clarify because you don't seem to get what I'm saying. The only change is the date (rather than Wedesday, it was Friday--so I only had a weekend and Monday to think it over--and the principle gave me the ok).
So, beta, teach us something. When you talk to people, do you say what you want to say, and answer no questions since what you said was so perfect and complete? Give us your theory of what makes for a complete, non-piecemeal story. Or, better yet, tell us ostensibly with a story of something that happened to you that is complete, requiring no further clarification. Obviously, no one would need to ask you any questions, lest you be accused of being contradictory and piecemeal.
I came here to share my experience and to warn others so that the profession as well as myself could grow. Instead, here you are, hammering away with disdain. Maybe you have a great job with a great employer. Or maybe you are principle of your own firm. That is why you don't understand what the average folks go through. Good for you.
For everyone who has given me valuable input and insight, I really appreciate it. This is what I expect from a professional forum. This has helped me grow, and also has shown me how most share my sentiments, though some hide behind their keyboard full of cynicism and unquenchable anger. Whatever your stance on this thread, I hope there are no hard feelings, and that includes beta & sutures. I mean it.
Homer's story doesn't appear to be balanced journalism, and we can't evaluate Homer based on his/her history as an author. Does this sort of "warning" merit serious discussion?
Was it ethical for homer to start this thread using the name of an architectural practise?
Isn't it ironic that much input here anonymously renders judgements on someone because of ethical considerations?
i just have to say -- betadine + suture lay off, i think you are overreacting... and why all the talking down to the guy becuase he's new to the forum... if you want archinect to grow you'll have to stuff your elitist attitude.... but as i predict you will both probably ignore my insight and blast me for voicing my opinion on your bratty attitude -- all for the sake of your huge ego
and another thing... i would be pissed if that stuff happened to me but you just have to come to expect it in such a flakey profession such as ours. i might have handled the situation different if i was you and i think that the guy who you talked to was being unprofessional....
where i work all the people that talk to the potential employees are VERY careful in what they say and i know they would have informed you if the job was going to be made available for others to accept before tuesday. you should have asked,
Beta homer brings up a good point ...tell us your similar story in such a convincing and perfect way that, not only we'll all understand it and not need any further clarification but we'll be so convinced and swayed by your explanantion that we'll all agree you were in the the right. Or will you simply take the easy way out and whine to your mommy? punk. put your money where your mouth is. What?
I don't really want to get into the battle I'm seeing on this board, but did want to point out that there IS another website out there that is dedicated to letting people know which firms will treat you well, and which firms will screw you over.
www.insidearch.org lets you post reviews about firms you have worked for or even just interviewed with so that other people looking for work can be informed by your experiences. The reviews are posted anonymously, but be careful with your commentary. First, if you're the only person to review that firm, they'll use ALL of your comments and it can become really obvious to the people working there who posted it, so keep that in mind. Second, if you say things like, "I'd think even McDonald's wouldn't do what they did to me." they'll probably take your review off. They ask a ton of questions on everything from salaries to job duties to the commitment to a specific style of architecture so that people get a well rounded view of the firm.
Just thought you guys might be interested in this, given the discussion topic at hand.
ok, sorry for the duplicate post there. Ignore my stupidity... I skipped over some of the posts in the middle, which seem to be exactly the ones I should have read.... oops.
I interviewed with a firm, and was called back for second interview. The first interview was good, I learned about their practice, general project types, what kind of work they were doing and looking to get into, and met one associate. I asked them about software, how many others they were currently interviewing, were they replacing staff, or was this a growth move and why did this individual move on. I brought my work both from school and various firms I worked with, we talked about the design firm I worked for and why I was looking to move from my current position. In essence we spoke in rather general terms about them and myself. Salary came up, but I let them know I had not really considered it at the moment. So we talked more about timeframe for the position, and they made it clear that they were definitly looking to hire now and were not just testing the market or oogling resumes. I said great and they said they had a couple of more interviews and would call me in a couple of weeks for a second interview, great! I got the second interview, met both partners, met the interior designer and associate, we talked more about their direction, got to specifics about salary - i let them know my current salary plus bonuses - they let me know about hours, benefits, time off, incentive packages, and talked about their expectations, and my expectations, what kind of work I wanted to do, my abilities in the areas of design, construction, and technology - spefically cad stuff - and how would I feel about my role within the firm changing, and how would I feel about do various tasks and not become singularly focused. All of which I was certainly comfortable with. The salary issue didn't make them wince, so I thought cool, the benefits seemed fine, health insurance wasn't a big deal my wife works for the state - free health. The people were cool, I went to school with one the guys that worked there and even that did not deter me. So I thought this would be a good place for me and even all of the people I met on the second run had a good impression of the process. So at the end of the second interview the one partner said to me, "Well will call you back either way concerning the position." and "We have one more interview next week, and we should decide within a week following that." I said great, looking forward to hearing from you. I left and two days later I sent a thank you letter and further expanded on my desire to work there, and even asked a couple of more questions to keep them engaged. Well its been six months and no return call, not even to say they offered it to someone else. So about a month after not hearing anything, I emailed the partner who first email me about my resume, explaining my disappointment, and quoted back to him what he had said to me before leaving. I even asked, that since it was obvious to me that I did not get the position, if it was possible if he could critique my interview and perhaps some tips as how I could make a better impression the next time I go out on an interview. I even let him know that if they ever needed someone to fill a teaching position at the local college that I would be interested. Again like I said no response. I considered calling, but I generally do not make a point begging, and to me the email was enough. So I moved and decided that when I start my own firm I would resolve to do what I could to take from their client pool and go after whatever job they were interested in, just so they would have the pleaseure of seeing me do it.
Notice, no condom dispenser remarks, notice no mention of the firms name, notice how I gave a complete sense of what happened? Look chances are you will find either none of this is related or that you will have questions about I wrote, but nothing the I wrote above will go from saying I was first offered the position to it was the basis for starting a dialogue and then proceed to saying I had a firm offer. I never had an offer.
I can empathize with homer's final "clarification" it best described what probably happened, and in that what they did was not cool, but if you compare that to what was first written and they don't mesh. No doubt attorneys would have a field day with his original and subsequent statements. I take people at their word, their word is bond, when you say you'll call someone back, or the position is yours then I take their word and I would get pissed too if they went back on it.
Chow, I don't whine to my mommy, it's kind of hard when she has no idea I even exist.
Great writing on WHO WHAT WHEN WHERE WHY. But even greater is that instead of whining, you have moved on and have channeled your energies into making sure you beat that firm in the future. That seems to me a much healthier attitude than feeling like a jimmie wrapper and holding architecture firm XYZ hostage and shaking them down on an Archinect forum.
and Beta,-i know that i am not you. do you know that you are not I? because i have no idea of what the faq homer is refering to when he/she says, "Why does "betadinesutures" have "Sutures" in his ID? Same person? Or partners?"
GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL HOMER: WE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE! + not all people are #1 winners. the elementary school days of getting a feel-good ribbon just for finishing the race are over for you. No one owes you a single rusty fuckin penny! Callus up that skin! You have emerged out from your chrysaline bubble...flap your wings!
Why dont you show an ounce of (journalistic) ethics and personally extend the courtesy of an invite to the said firm so they may give their rubutting account and defend themselves against your limp charges?
But it seems like you are really into yourself and have always liked one sided fights where you are always guaranteed a blue ribbon.
beta, very nice response, both to the firm and to me (except for the opening about the bitch). So you and I feel the same, the only difference being in whether we choose to make the issue public or not. Anyway, thank you for the response, and I won't take cheap shots at your story.
Suture, you should change your ID from "suture" to "divide." Why do you want to divide the working class from each other? My actions are driven by the need to protect the little guys from the big guys. This had little to do with me and my ego. I just wanted to warn others, just like www.speedtrap.org From the beginning, I called this an "Alert!" And in no way was this journalism. My intent was to create an impromptu network of warnings, so that we workers can act with some degree of knowledge. If you think my story added no knowledge at all, that's ok.
Trust me, I have long been over it. But you and beta have kept dragging this on. At least, I think, beta and I have settled our differences (though he still takes his stance, and I still think public disclosure is best), and I hope we are good. At the least we have found a way to communicate with each other in a respectful tone. I hope you'll come around, too, and I hope we can find it in ourselves to respect each other, even with our differences. I know I can.
personally i always feel like it's best to call...email is a medium
that is easy for people to ignore...especially principals who probably
get twenty or thirty a day...email is also really impersonal in some
ways...unlike the sound of your voice..personally i like to leave a
voicemail or two a week..with the intent of talking to the person..
eventually i give up..but i feel like the sound of someone's voice
and the fact that you're calling make people aware you're interested.
both sides of the discussion is valid.
one time, pre autocad, i interviewed with a structural eng. firm. older gentleman who interviewed me said my lettering style was too sensetive and they needed someone who lettered like a man. since i am childish by nature, i went home and sent the firm a sentence with a letraset (helvetica) saying, 'may all your work be menly and hard as your dick, motherfuckers'.
homer, i think, if you send them a letter stating what happened and not be as childish as i was, but throwing some not so sensetive designations about their firm, they might be more careful towards the next joe. and you would be satisfied with your contribution to 'humane treatment of architects council'.
Here’s the difference beta bitch, while you only talked about salary and were told you’d get a phone call homer was made an offer, one he thought about within the agreed upon time, and when he went to give his answer the firm had not held up their end of the bargan and had hired someone else. What’s to say that homer didn’t turn down other offers within that time frame, possibly burning bridges. That is the fundamental problem here and the main difference between being made an offer and someone stroking your desperately fragile ego. OK NOW I UNDERSTAND YOUR ANGER WITH HOMER….IT’S DISPLACED ANGER TOWARD THIS FIRM WHO NEVER GAVE YOU THE TIME OF DAY AFTER YOU WALKED OUT THE DOOR, NO REPLY AT ALL. NO REPLY TO THE “CRITIQUE MY INTERVIEW†LINE, NO REPLY TO “FILL A TEACHING POSITION†LINE, NOT EVEN QUOTING HIM GOT A RESPONSE. Sounds like you were expecting a phone call one way or the other, why is that? Did this firm not hold up their end of the bargain? As for the whole mommy thing…I don’t follow, how can she not know you exist? Did she not give birth to you? Don’t bring this crap to the conversation unless you want to discuss it. Bitch!
chow, thanks for understanding my point of view. beta, thanks for being curteous. I wanted all us workers to unite, not fight perpetually.
I think I was naive in thinking that I could help change the profession with my thread. It seems--while I have succeeded in bringing this issue to forefront--have instead enlisted latent angers amongst all of us to erupt (mine included at times).
So let's all cool down, and take from this our own lessons. The lesson I learned is that the social cost of whistleblowing is rather immediate; that not all will see things from my point of view, even if we belong in the same working class; that our expectations of the profession differ; and that, like the issue of gay marriage that errupted and has had ramifications no one has expected, this issue is causing some harm to this community. So, please, let's all let it go. ok? Peace.
"If anyone from wHY reads this, I'd give them a chance to rebut. But what has happened happened. I hope they start behaving like adults. Never again will I approach tiny startup firms like this."
I have enjoyed this post, and respect Homer for actually naming names instead of dealing with hypotheticals - that takes balls.
Complaining about a lack of ethics and standards in relation to hiring, which exist as commonplace practices in most other professions, is a relevant criticism - you have to start somewhere to change things - unless we/you secretly like being treated like a whore. I dont know about you, but desperation and powerlessness are'nt the best emotional states to live life by.
Let me add some insight here....They need you, you don't need them. Everyone should remember this when they go on job interviews. This being said, they will behave as they need to because they have an immediate need to fill and will do what is necessary to fill a position. Time is money, and time when there is no staff working on a project when the clock is ticking is a greater risk to a firm than offending someone who may well be considering multiple offers from other firms, and may as well take another offer while a firm is waiting for a decision. Money talks, talk walks.
there are major differences between beta's and homer's experiences. While Beta's seems typical of what many of us experience during the interview process (why didn't they call me?) homer was actually offered a job and asked to start the next week.
It would be cool if wHY would respond, but I know I wouldn't put my shit on the line like that. You guys are tough!
Good God this is a long thread, homer. I didn't read any of it. Sorry about that. Sounds like they looked your VIN# up on the internet and found out that you got rear ended. Buyers remorse I guess. Was it the right decision?
I just got treated like a condom dispenser by a firm!
UNLESS YOU'RE INTO THAT SORT OF THING
Geez, so much speculation. This whole thing was rather traumatic, so I don't want to revisit, but I should say some things to clarify, since so many of you have taken the time to read this stuff and reply.
One week for me to decide doesn't seem that long. In my experience, from quickest to slowest, firms have offered me a job:
- on the phone when they call me the day after receiving my resume
- to 2 weeks after the interview.
So, during the interview with this firm, I told them that I'm done interviewing, and that I'm waiting word from one more firm to see what their offer is. Now, this may sound like I just rejected them, but here are the facts:
- I said that I would have to first find out what the other firm was offering, because I'll find out by Tuesday. I said that even if they offered a couple thousand more, I would work for wHY because I liked x, y, and z about them.
- Since they wanted me to start Monday, I said that I'd like to start Wednesday, contingent on my deciding on Tuesday.
- He agreed. He could have said no, that he needs the decision now. He could have taken back the offer, saying that he might hire someone else. But he didn't. He agreed to Tuesday for my decision.
That's why when this happened, I felt like a condom dispenser--disposible and replaceable by the next. Also, I felt f***ed in the ass.
As for the Hot Chick analogy, suture seems to assume that job offers are on a rolling basis. I think in a professional world, (1) the employer tells all candidates that they will be taking two weeks for the whole process, (2) offer the job to the most qualified during that two weeks, (2) if they don't take it, offer it to the next, (3) and finally when the best one takes it, tell all others that they didn't get the job. Unlike promiscuous dating, the terms should be clear. Anyway, why do you let strange girls climb all over you and take her shirt off? This is a profession, not a bar scene, as g-love said.
chow, this firm is very small: 2 principles, 2 employees, and 1 intern. So there's really no one else to talk to. I wish there were, because I think the others would have been appalled. But maybe it's like the famous experiment with the people in white coats injecting pain on subjects--their sense of morality that society taught them is suspended by the local group dynamics. Anyway, thanks for your support.
spaceman, yes, they opened the door. They should have also told me that when they agreed to a few days for me to decide, that the door could close without notice. They didn't. I really wouldn't have minded knowing--if that were the case, I would gladly have declined on the spot. It's just that I trusted their word at face value.
And to all the others who have read and posted, I'm sorry I can't reply to each of you--too much typing. But thanks, regardless of your position. I'm just glad that I'm not alone in believing that we should raise this profession to a certain level. And I know some of you disagree on several points, but it's good to know where we all stand.
You were f***ed in the arse, the profession has a habit of doing this one way or another. No one is safe.
If you were f***ed in the ass it was probably fortunate you had the donkey with you!
Oops! Huge mistake! I got the dates wrong. It was Friday afternoon, not Wednesday. So, basically, I had the weekend, Monday, and part of Tuesday to decide. Sorry (I've been interviewing alot).
i must tell you this all could have been avoided had you posted, the entire unedited portion above. though i think some might think that there is another side to this, that won't get told, because it's not worth their time...
So betadinesutures, did you take the job?
well if truth be told i was the one who...
I thought so....
wow..whatafinalle..
the real happy ending was firm XYZ glazing homer like a donut, both eyes dried shut, icicles on the chin.
let this petulant's whinny story serve as a warning to all-haviing a stiff upper lip and the ability to dodge the highway traffic are some good qualities for architects to have.
Homer- what will happen to you when mommy takes away your sippy cup or worse yet when a client decides to give a comission to a competitor firm simply because that other firm took them to a bar and then sent them a bottle of 30 year whiskey? Check out the GSA competition story on the news section? should the loosing firm out the winning firm here? read the story-they were shafted worse than you ever will be. Will you once again seek solace in abrassive Archinect discussions? Get real.
if you are a dude or a chick- please put your juck strap right because its cup check time. and go dry your eyes.
Suture=tool
coach suture, you're a real hardass. but you should have done it like this "WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION!!?"
and who says chicks? are you from the jersey shore?
take your own advice. "grow up and be more mature"
suture and betadinesutures = loser design principals of wHY architecture
:(
funny how people who ask questions in a non abrassive manner get productive help from all, including suture
eating soup with a fork
It was immediately obvious that at least betadinesutures was more involved than he/she immediately let on due to the overbearing and unprovoked harshness in the above posts.
For all I know suture may be a director of wHY, but then again maybe that are one in the same - you cant have betadinsutures without suture.
thats it! im taking my ball home and telling my momy that you guys are being some big fat meannie(sp?)!!!!!!!!!
wah!!!! wah! WAH!!!!! WHAAAAAH!
nope not one in the same, although i admit it is eerie...
i will say this one time and one time only. if you look at how this persons story has changed each time they responded how can one not be suspicious as to their real motives. not to mention their first post on this site is how he was used like a condom?? at least follow his changing responses each time more and more info is revealed, yet if they posted what they posted last this kind of shit would not have happened. besides i still maintain this is rather one sided.
betadine, it was a condom dispenser.....and the 'more info' is just clarifications, which people like you are asking
i think he is just wanting to divulge his shitty experience with us, so instead of giving him the benefit of doubt, you just hammer away at the negative. That would lead someone to believe that you might be one of the principles of the firm, or if not (gasp, hold your breath) you might have a company of your own and treat people like the boss here
Im sorry, but i would tend to say that once many people like you get together, a profession like architecture gets to be the dirty, underpaid and fake mess that we find ourselves again.
listen doc, i got the shaft much like the newb did, but i did not come here and explain in half truths and contradictory statements, clarifications suck because inevitable you have to wind up explaining why you didn't say what really happened, only it's disjointed by several comments and further requires more explanation until we arrive at some "truth" which of course we have to rely on that the newb, who never posted dick, before this, is not talking ou of the side of his/her ass.
so here's a hypothetical for you, what if one of the principals comes here and contradicts everything above, are you less likely to believe them because of this persons seemingly earnest posts to the contrary?
look newb, compose your thoughts next time and when you write something that is design to slant people to your position and against another firm, tell the whole story, not something so fcuking piecemeal..
Why does "betadinesutures" have "Sutures" in his ID? Same person? Or partners?
beta, my story didn't change. And it is not piecemeal: I'm just adding details to clarify because you don't seem to get what I'm saying. The only change is the date (rather than Wedesday, it was Friday--so I only had a weekend and Monday to think it over--and the principle gave me the ok).
So, beta, teach us something. When you talk to people, do you say what you want to say, and answer no questions since what you said was so perfect and complete? Give us your theory of what makes for a complete, non-piecemeal story. Or, better yet, tell us ostensibly with a story of something that happened to you that is complete, requiring no further clarification. Obviously, no one would need to ask you any questions, lest you be accused of being contradictory and piecemeal.
I came here to share my experience and to warn others so that the profession as well as myself could grow. Instead, here you are, hammering away with disdain. Maybe you have a great job with a great employer. Or maybe you are principle of your own firm. That is why you don't understand what the average folks go through. Good for you.
For everyone who has given me valuable input and insight, I really appreciate it. This is what I expect from a professional forum. This has helped me grow, and also has shown me how most share my sentiments, though some hide behind their keyboard full of cynicism and unquenchable anger. Whatever your stance on this thread, I hope there are no hard feelings, and that includes beta & sutures. I mean it.
Homer's story doesn't appear to be balanced journalism, and we can't evaluate Homer based on his/her history as an author. Does this sort of "warning" merit serious discussion?
Was it ethical for homer to start this thread using the name of an architectural practise?
Isn't it ironic that much input here anonymously renders judgements on someone because of ethical considerations?
i just have to say -- betadine + suture lay off, i think you are overreacting... and why all the talking down to the guy becuase he's new to the forum... if you want archinect to grow you'll have to stuff your elitist attitude.... but as i predict you will both probably ignore my insight and blast me for voicing my opinion on your bratty attitude -- all for the sake of your huge ego
and another thing... i would be pissed if that stuff happened to me but you just have to come to expect it in such a flakey profession such as ours. i might have handled the situation different if i was you and i think that the guy who you talked to was being unprofessional....
where i work all the people that talk to the potential employees are VERY careful in what they say and i know they would have informed you if the job was going to be made available for others to accept before tuesday. you should have asked,
Beta homer brings up a good point ...tell us your similar story in such a convincing and perfect way that, not only we'll all understand it and not need any further clarification but we'll be so convinced and swayed by your explanantion that we'll all agree you were in the the right. Or will you simply take the easy way out and whine to your mommy? punk. put your money where your mouth is. What?
I don't really want to get into the battle I'm seeing on this board, but did want to point out that there IS another website out there that is dedicated to letting people know which firms will treat you well, and which firms will screw you over.
www.insidearch.org lets you post reviews about firms you have worked for or even just interviewed with so that other people looking for work can be informed by your experiences. The reviews are posted anonymously, but be careful with your commentary. First, if you're the only person to review that firm, they'll use ALL of your comments and it can become really obvious to the people working there who posted it, so keep that in mind. Second, if you say things like, "I'd think even McDonald's wouldn't do what they did to me." they'll probably take your review off. They ask a ton of questions on everything from salaries to job duties to the commitment to a specific style of architecture so that people get a well rounded view of the firm.
Just thought you guys might be interested in this, given the discussion topic at hand.
ok, sorry for the duplicate post there. Ignore my stupidity... I skipped over some of the posts in the middle, which seem to be exactly the ones I should have read.... oops.
But the advice about what you post still stands.
okay i'll bite bitch.
I interviewed with a firm, and was called back for second interview. The first interview was good, I learned about their practice, general project types, what kind of work they were doing and looking to get into, and met one associate. I asked them about software, how many others they were currently interviewing, were they replacing staff, or was this a growth move and why did this individual move on. I brought my work both from school and various firms I worked with, we talked about the design firm I worked for and why I was looking to move from my current position. In essence we spoke in rather general terms about them and myself. Salary came up, but I let them know I had not really considered it at the moment. So we talked more about timeframe for the position, and they made it clear that they were definitly looking to hire now and were not just testing the market or oogling resumes. I said great and they said they had a couple of more interviews and would call me in a couple of weeks for a second interview, great! I got the second interview, met both partners, met the interior designer and associate, we talked more about their direction, got to specifics about salary - i let them know my current salary plus bonuses - they let me know about hours, benefits, time off, incentive packages, and talked about their expectations, and my expectations, what kind of work I wanted to do, my abilities in the areas of design, construction, and technology - spefically cad stuff - and how would I feel about my role within the firm changing, and how would I feel about do various tasks and not become singularly focused. All of which I was certainly comfortable with. The salary issue didn't make them wince, so I thought cool, the benefits seemed fine, health insurance wasn't a big deal my wife works for the state - free health. The people were cool, I went to school with one the guys that worked there and even that did not deter me. So I thought this would be a good place for me and even all of the people I met on the second run had a good impression of the process. So at the end of the second interview the one partner said to me, "Well will call you back either way concerning the position." and "We have one more interview next week, and we should decide within a week following that." I said great, looking forward to hearing from you. I left and two days later I sent a thank you letter and further expanded on my desire to work there, and even asked a couple of more questions to keep them engaged. Well its been six months and no return call, not even to say they offered it to someone else. So about a month after not hearing anything, I emailed the partner who first email me about my resume, explaining my disappointment, and quoted back to him what he had said to me before leaving. I even asked, that since it was obvious to me that I did not get the position, if it was possible if he could critique my interview and perhaps some tips as how I could make a better impression the next time I go out on an interview. I even let him know that if they ever needed someone to fill a teaching position at the local college that I would be interested. Again like I said no response. I considered calling, but I generally do not make a point begging, and to me the email was enough. So I moved and decided that when I start my own firm I would resolve to do what I could to take from their client pool and go after whatever job they were interested in, just so they would have the pleaseure of seeing me do it.
Notice, no condom dispenser remarks, notice no mention of the firms name, notice how I gave a complete sense of what happened? Look chances are you will find either none of this is related or that you will have questions about I wrote, but nothing the I wrote above will go from saying I was first offered the position to it was the basis for starting a dialogue and then proceed to saying I had a firm offer. I never had an offer.
I can empathize with homer's final "clarification" it best described what probably happened, and in that what they did was not cool, but if you compare that to what was first written and they don't mesh. No doubt attorneys would have a field day with his original and subsequent statements. I take people at their word, their word is bond, when you say you'll call someone back, or the position is yours then I take their word and I would get pissed too if they went back on it.
Chow, I don't whine to my mommy, it's kind of hard when she has no idea I even exist.
Did you feel like this?
no not really, but hey i didn't come here and put them down and call them out either...
beta:
Great writing on WHO WHAT WHEN WHERE WHY. But even greater is that instead of whining, you have moved on and have channeled your energies into making sure you beat that firm in the future. That seems to me a much healthier attitude than feeling like a jimmie wrapper and holding architecture firm XYZ hostage and shaking them down on an Archinect forum.
and Beta,-i know that i am not you. do you know that you are not I? because i have no idea of what the faq homer is refering to when he/she says, "Why does "betadinesutures" have "Sutures" in his ID? Same person? Or partners?"
GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL HOMER: WE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE! + not all people are #1 winners. the elementary school days of getting a feel-good ribbon just for finishing the race are over for you. No one owes you a single rusty fuckin penny! Callus up that skin! You have emerged out from your chrysaline bubble...flap your wings!
like in the Olympics, there will be no second GOLD medal awarded to the looser. but I bet you that Korea's Yang Tae Young will come back strong and with a vengace at the NEXT Olympiad. HOMER-PLEASE MOVE ON AS WELL!
and thats righht! Im over on da J0e-ze sho' pickin up hot chicks in my 87 Camaro dem chrome thangs spinnin!
Also Homer,
Why dont you show an ounce of (journalistic) ethics and personally extend the courtesy of an invite to the said firm so they may give their rubutting account and defend themselves against your limp charges?
But it seems like you are really into yourself and have always liked one sided fights where you are always guaranteed a blue ribbon.
STEP UP BITCH!
More like this than a dispenser
beta, very nice response, both to the firm and to me (except for the opening about the bitch). So you and I feel the same, the only difference being in whether we choose to make the issue public or not. Anyway, thank you for the response, and I won't take cheap shots at your story.
Suture, you should change your ID from "suture" to "divide." Why do you want to divide the working class from each other? My actions are driven by the need to protect the little guys from the big guys. This had little to do with me and my ego. I just wanted to warn others, just like www.speedtrap.org From the beginning, I called this an "Alert!" And in no way was this journalism. My intent was to create an impromptu network of warnings, so that we workers can act with some degree of knowledge. If you think my story added no knowledge at all, that's ok.
Trust me, I have long been over it. But you and beta have kept dragging this on. At least, I think, beta and I have settled our differences (though he still takes his stance, and I still think public disclosure is best), and I hope we are good. At the least we have found a way to communicate with each other in a respectful tone. I hope you'll come around, too, and I hope we can find it in ourselves to respect each other, even with our differences. I know I can.
beta-
personally i always feel like it's best to call...email is a medium
that is easy for people to ignore...especially principals who probably
get twenty or thirty a day...email is also really impersonal in some
ways...unlike the sound of your voice..personally i like to leave a
voicemail or two a week..with the intent of talking to the person..
eventually i give up..but i feel like the sound of someone's voice
and the fact that you're calling make people aware you're interested.
just a thought.
homer the bitch comment was for chow.
lars, i was naive and took him at his word, i probably should have called, but i wanted him to follow through. thanks though.
both sides of the discussion is valid.
one time, pre autocad, i interviewed with a structural eng. firm. older gentleman who interviewed me said my lettering style was too sensetive and they needed someone who lettered like a man. since i am childish by nature, i went home and sent the firm a sentence with a letraset (helvetica) saying, 'may all your work be menly and hard as your dick, motherfuckers'.
homer, i think, if you send them a letter stating what happened and not be as childish as i was, but throwing some not so sensetive designations about their firm, they might be more careful towards the next joe. and you would be satisfied with your contribution to 'humane treatment of architects council'.
Here’s the difference beta bitch, while you only talked about salary and were told you’d get a phone call homer was made an offer, one he thought about within the agreed upon time, and when he went to give his answer the firm had not held up their end of the bargan and had hired someone else. What’s to say that homer didn’t turn down other offers within that time frame, possibly burning bridges. That is the fundamental problem here and the main difference between being made an offer and someone stroking your desperately fragile ego. OK NOW I UNDERSTAND YOUR ANGER WITH HOMER….IT’S DISPLACED ANGER TOWARD THIS FIRM WHO NEVER GAVE YOU THE TIME OF DAY AFTER YOU WALKED OUT THE DOOR, NO REPLY AT ALL. NO REPLY TO THE “CRITIQUE MY INTERVIEW†LINE, NO REPLY TO “FILL A TEACHING POSITION†LINE, NOT EVEN QUOTING HIM GOT A RESPONSE. Sounds like you were expecting a phone call one way or the other, why is that? Did this firm not hold up their end of the bargain? As for the whole mommy thing…I don’t follow, how can she not know you exist? Did she not give birth to you? Don’t bring this crap to the conversation unless you want to discuss it. Bitch!
chow, thanks for understanding my point of view. beta, thanks for being curteous. I wanted all us workers to unite, not fight perpetually.
I think I was naive in thinking that I could help change the profession with my thread. It seems--while I have succeeded in bringing this issue to forefront--have instead enlisted latent angers amongst all of us to erupt (mine included at times).
So let's all cool down, and take from this our own lessons. The lesson I learned is that the social cost of whistleblowing is rather immediate; that not all will see things from my point of view, even if we belong in the same working class; that our expectations of the profession differ; and that, like the issue of gay marriage that errupted and has had ramifications no one has expected, this issue is causing some harm to this community. So, please, let's all let it go. ok? Peace.
homer
I thought you worked at the nuclear reactor in springfield!
and if thats not you you gotta be dead by now!
all i can say is
WHY!
or whY or wHY or WhY or Why
and.....
WHO?
SUTURE: from the first post:
"If anyone from wHY reads this, I'd give them a chance to rebut. But what has happened happened. I hope they start behaving like adults. Never again will I approach tiny startup firms like this."
I have enjoyed this post, and respect Homer for actually naming names instead of dealing with hypotheticals - that takes balls.
Complaining about a lack of ethics and standards in relation to hiring, which exist as commonplace practices in most other professions, is a relevant criticism - you have to start somewhere to change things - unless we/you secretly like being treated like a whore. I dont know about you, but desperation and powerlessness are'nt the best emotional states to live life by.
By all means, wHY should rebut.
Let me add some insight here....They need you, you don't need them. Everyone should remember this when they go on job interviews. This being said, they will behave as they need to because they have an immediate need to fill and will do what is necessary to fill a position. Time is money, and time when there is no staff working on a project when the clock is ticking is a greater risk to a firm than offending someone who may well be considering multiple offers from other firms, and may as well take another offer while a firm is waiting for a decision. Money talks, talk walks.
there are major differences between beta's and homer's experiences. While Beta's seems typical of what many of us experience during the interview process (why didn't they call me?) homer was actually offered a job and asked to start the next week.
It would be cool if wHY would respond, but I know I wouldn't put my shit on the line like that. You guys are tough!
Good God this is a long thread, homer. I didn't read any of it. Sorry about that. Sounds like they looked your VIN# up on the internet and found out that you got rear ended. Buyers remorse I guess. Was it the right decision?
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