jesus....is an electrician on a job i am working on now.......anyway, gods name in vein, Jesus - let jla-x give a fuck about the built environment.....i am an AOR for many unlicensed people who care more about a good real environment than many sticks up their Ass AIA... hey note it out,diaconnect from the GC,its not your fault national standard notes can not be built,detach yourself from building.......i care about everything on my projects....switching to lap top...hold on
I'm talking about honestly representing the fact that one does indeed have an "architecture degree." Even when used in a way to promote/decribe your credentials for the purpose of procuring work in an architecturally related but non-regulated field it is legally ok...
oh, I am an AOR for an international Starchitect tooo...wooopdie doo!
carry on with your AIA nonsense..
client couldn't wait for 48 hours to produce the contract (AIA-101) so we issued the draft word doc and called it a day.
why is the AIA important?
sorry, I don't get it.
Aug 1, 15 12:04 am ·
·
jla-x,
Let me explain something about profession and licensure. Profession is the occupation, business and practice of that occupation.
This existed long before licensure. Profession and licensure are two different things. Professions did not begin when licensing began. The word profession predates the concept of occupational licensing.
Do a little bit of etymology and the facts will be clear that history of the words, occupations or profession predates licenses which exist at most ~150 years. Profession is essentially another word for vocation.
Architecture has been a vocation where people made a living and conducted as a business for a long time. Architecture has gone through cycles where people may engage from sporadic to full-time depending on the needs. In periods of time when demand is low, architecture profession can be hard to conduct as a sole occupation at full-time basis. People will often engage in various vocations even concurrently to live.
Therefore a person maybe in not one profession but many professions so that they will always be busy.
Licensing of the architecture profession is a new concept of the past century and a half.
In the U.S., talks of licensing of the profession goes back to the 1830s in the AIA's (American Institute of Architects) short lived predecessor the AIA (American Institution of Architects). Even then, they have been talking about the profession as already a profession BEFORE there was any licensing laws.
Architecture wasn't just something a rich politician such as Thomas Jefferson did. There are people who did the profession as a living and that has been going on long before the the Roman Empire. Even before the Greeks.
The thing is, profession is the exercising of knowledge and skills of a discipline as a vocation (for a living for some means of compensation or remuneration be it money, gifts, or otherwise). It has been going on as long as people have been trading their knowledge and skills for something in return.
Profession and Trade isn't all that different. Professions are a trade even when we do not want to be associated with the so called "neanderthal" builders. Then this is attitude of academia culture to non-academia trained professionals - the ivory tower holier than thou attitude syndrome.
Lets remember, trade goes its meaning from the days where we exercise the trading of skills and knowledge for compensation.
It doesn't matter whether or not the trade is knowledge centered (theory-centered) or hands craft skills (skill/practice-centered). Trade is trade. You trade knowledge & skills for money. We do that today even when we are in an academic institution teaching. Teaching is a trade because teachers do it for pay. They don't work for free. I'm not saying that they are rich or get great pay.
A discipline is the collective body of knowledge and skills of a subject matter. A person can only learn a portion of the knowledge and skills that can be learned of a subject matter. There is always more that can be learned even if one manage to learn all the known knowledge and skills of a discipline's subject matter.... there is still knowledge and skills to be discovered in regards to any and all subject matters.
The biggest problem with licensing laws is that it makes the cost of entering a profession because it creates a bureaucratic environment comparable to that of the Vogons.
It stifles growth because people only talk about how to get license but not the subject in which the profession is about. It only feeds an academic system that explodes in cost in terms of tuition as the institution's enrollment increases and never lowers. You would think the more students an institution has, the lower the cost would be but it doesn't work that way. It just makes the administrators more rich with bigger paychecks to the universities' presidents, provosts and other upper tier administrators.
So when student enrollment dips, tuition goes up. So, how can people afford to go to college for every subject discipline? It isn't like there is sufficient money, jobs, etc. It isn't there. We need to embrace all paths to learning a subject matter of a discipline in terms of knowledge and skills and then through processes and then test thoroughly.
If it means we employ a more comprehensive test then we do. However, that is also a subject matter that has been discussed for many years but lets ask ourselves this? How often do we really have deep commitment to expanding the knowledge and skills of the discipline of Architecture and then apply it to the professional practice of architecture? How often do we really discuss how to design and build better buildings? Not just artistically but scientifically from the scientific side of architecture. Yes, architecture is art and science but we tend to ignore and outsource it? When we outsource, we stop learning that knowledge and skills as we stop practicing.
I do not link profession/professional with being licensed. Being licensed simply means being licensed. It doesn't make a person a professional or what they do a profession. Profession and Professional is only defined in state laws so as to defined the intent and meaning in the context of interpreting state laws and enforcing it. It is not the alpha and omega of the meaning of the words 'profession' or 'professional'. It is only a statutory definition or an administrative rule definition to narrow the meaning for purpose of defining the interpretive meaning of the particular laws and rules so when a lawyer or enforcement authority is tasked with interpreting and enforcing the laws / rules, they have a relative degree of consistent understanding and interpretation in recognition that words have diverse meanings that can be widely interpreted so to have interpretive stability, definitions are defined but that is where the definition ends.
Therefore, if I want to describe my work as architectural then in proper context, I have the right to do so because of a prevailing Supreme law of the country, the U.S. Constitution which includes the 1st amendment and the 5th and 14th amendment.
The internet is one jurisdiction that is legally outside the jurisdiction of the licensing board as they would exceed there jurisdiction, right then and there except a caveat. If I said, I offer 'architectural services' in Oregon then I linguistically would bring Oregon a jurisdiction because they have the right to protect public from fraud and misrepresentation. There jurisdiction only persist to apply to the actions of a person when there is legal nexus of impact. When the nexus of my choice of words becomes sufficient to have a legal effect as in terms of implied marketing services to those who are citizens of Oregon or those who hold properties in Oregon.
However, the rule of state authority to sanction against me for fraud or misrepresentation is when I state false representation. If however, what I say is true, then I have a legal right to say so.
If I said, "I am an architect where I am authorized to practice as an architect".
Now the question is.... is that false? Is that misrepresentation? or is it true.
dude, none of this really matters. i mean really, not legally.
Aug 1, 15 12:54 am ·
·
jla-x,
Careful... given that any form of communication we have and interact with people is marketing, too! Given that our professional work life and private life in intertwine so much that it is one in the same.
In essence, my professional and business life doesn't begin at 9AM and end at 5pm. It is 24/7 in so many ways that even when conversing with people... that is marketing. That is public relation. In my business, I don't clock in and clock out aside from when I wake up and go to sleep.
Therefore, my social networking personally is also professionally and social networking professionally is also personally. I believe this is very much true and factual for ALL sole-practitioners of any occupation.
The law isn't limited to just paid ads in a phone book or newspaper or online directories like Angie's List. When we do not confine our entire professional and private life in distinct time slots, notions of clean delineation of when we are engaged in personal life and professional / vocation, marketing, PR, etc. of our business is not so simple.
We have more complicated professional/private life.
Anyone can say they have an architecture degree. It isn't a violation and that is norm for a long time. The issue isn't those clear, cut and dry issues. The contention isn't in those areas.
I tend to stop reading when I see too much Balkins so I've been tuned out but I was thinking... I am engaged in another profession (while also being a small time designer and arch school grad) and I am a member of a professional organization that brings referrals of about $30k-40k annually which is pretty good for a small business of 3-4 people. The membership costs $90. If AIA could do that for me, I would join in a heartbeat, maybe they can or do give referalls, if so, how? Returning to the original poster's Q, What do you get out of it?
Question....I have seen several designers, refered to by others, as providing architectural design or as architects in online reviews and articles, is that a violation if others use those terms?
I said on the first page of this discussion what I get out of my AIA membership, and it's a LOT. Your mileage may vary (depending on how much of a stick you have up your own ass regarding the cliche of the AIA being a bunch of old white exclusionist men).
jla-x, no. Read a damn practice act. It's so, so simple, which is why these endless arguments about the same topic over and over frustrate me so much!
Donna gets opportunities to travel. (BTW, might want to not leave a bunch of comments on the internet like telling people they have sticks up their asses if you want to be FAIA)
Aug 1, 15 12:28 pm ·
·
jla-x,
Although this isn't directly related to your question. I'll tell you a story of a tail of dealing with licensing board investigation process.
I been through it with Oregon and Washington (at the same time) over an Angie's Listing. However in my case, it was in fact a mechanism outside my reasonable control. I believe ended up removing my business listing with Angie's List altogether because it put me through enough headache that I don't want to have anything to do with them.
The end of the case, I was not fined by either state.
Unlicensed designers needs to be careful about listing ones business in business listings.
When I listed my business there in the online directory there, I listed my business under "Architects and Building Design". This isn't a violation of law as the title is fair and true. Discomforting to me but okay because the listing category is "Architects and Building Design". Why wouldn't I list myself there? I'm a building designer. What I do is building design.
The ones who filed the complaints to the boards did not show my ad as it is viewed by those on Angie's List which would be correct. Here is where the problem is: Angie's List lead landing page thinggy that is accessed publicly and cached by search engines is auto-generated from the main listing but it has some CRUCIAL FLAWS.
Instead of correctly listing the landing page profile using the correct category title of "Architects and Building Design" that it simply listed the category title of "Architect" which is where the hang up and problem.
The landing page is auto-generated. The auto-generation script is completely outside my control. Therefore the error in listing was founded in to be in their fault. There was no unreasonable intent to mislead or represent myself as an architect in that case. In fact, it was determined to be a fault resulting in their landing page auto-generation coding/scripts. Short of engaging in cyber-crime, I don't have access to editing their scripts/coding and database so from that end. Therefore, their auto-generation scripting were creating 'landing pages' that were not entirely in jive with my actual Angie's List profile.
I went as far as setting a temporary password to my Angie's List from which the the licensing board's investigator can look at for his own eyes what my Angie's List profile looked like from within the account. Shortly afterwards, I restored my password to the account.
Washington administratively closed the case. Oregon then subsequently at their board meeting closed the case as well.
The gist of the story is, if it is clear that you were not intending violating the law and you take effort to correct the matters to the extent of your ability, then they will not fine you.
If however, you go around in so called personal socialization referring to yourself as an architect and you are referred to as one then that is a violation because really, when you are in leadership of a business such as owning on, your business and life is basically one. There isn't exactly a separation of personal and professional life with sole-proprietorship. Whenever you are socially engaging with others, you are conducting P.R. and passive marketing if not active marketing on behalf of your business. Especially in the architectural field where services are procured by informal social relationships. It isn't like we get our services procured by a formal process except in large projects that firms under go.
There is a big difference in what residential/light commercial focused architects and building designers services are procured compared to that of firms that are procured by procurement networks like ORPIN in Oregon which public projects are often procured through like civic, governmental, educational, etc.
IMO I find it highly arrogant that people who do small scale residential projects and posses little formal training from an accredited school think they are architects. They are not. They are simply good at designing houses. Shouldn't even be called building designer. It's just a house. They can't even do multi family.
Architects make big personal and financial sacrifices to achieve their goals. They go through rigorous academic training, IDP("real world"), and grueling exams.
They are then endowed with the power to design anything from a dog house to the Petronas towers.
Following prescriptive code and knowing how to read framing plans for a single family house is not the same as doing a hospital or an airport or a museum or mall etc. It's an apples to oranges argument. End of story.
Actually, architectural practitioners who are licensed have restricted the term "architect" to such a small percentage of people actually doing architecture they have pretty much lost the term to the Information Technology people. Meanwhile, they are viewed as total morons both by the informed public and by the university architecture graduates in their own offices doing the work for their firms. You can't coherently speak of "licensed architects" because you have to be licensed to be an architect. In the same vein you cant speak of "unlicensed architects" because if a person is unlicensed he or she is not an architect. So, in a supposedly "creative" profession, there is no name for people who have spent five years at a university studying architecture, earned an architecture degree, got a job at an architecture firm, and spend their workdays designing buildings.
Aug 1, 15 4:29 pm ·
·
rob_c,
Houses are buildings. We can design other types of buildings as well. You say, architects makes big personal and financial sacrifices to achieve their goal. You think I haven't? Don't get full of yourself in your so called sacrifices.
Personal sacrifices... lol. You think you are that unique and special. The only special, I would call you is short bus special.
Designing houses and other exempt buildings is a bit more involved than following 'prescriptive code' and reading framing plans. You realize how stupid you sound? It's called building codes. The last I recall, building codes have prescribed requirement like prescribed live load requirements for hospitals, museums, and airport buildings. You have prescriptive methods for framing. You also have alternative methods which involves using accepted/approved engineering standards to design/engineer alternate methods of construction that meets the building code load requirements.
Oh, yeah, 'reading framing plans' ? Are you serious? I thought it was preparing framing plans not just reading it. Aren't you sounding so stupid there. Now, I don't know about you but building design involves the same art and science as it is for licensed Architects. I had been dealing with contracted project scale because of the recession.
IDP... okay and that means what. You want a bleeping cookie? Being involved with 10,20, or other <100% of a project vs. designing an entire house where you are fully and 100% liable. Ok... so what.
I have legal responsibility to my clients. Generally, the unlicensed intern is not a valid legal target to sue in a negligence case because they are an employee of their employer, operating under the employer's direction through their chain of command via the chain of supervision and employer is liable to their employee's actions. While I have full legal responsibility to my client because I have a contraction relationship with the client and therefore a duty of care.
Volunteer, that's why displaying your degree after your name would be nice. It at least signifies you've made a meaningful commitment to what you do. And since accreditation at schools is nation wide in the U.S. there is at least a baseline standard. There are exceptions but those people could just be known as drafters or designers. As soon as your title includes building or architect the public can too easily mistake that for a registered architect, despite you and I knowing better.
Balkins, you offer a small seasonal service in rural Oregon. While I don't doubt the professionalism or competence of the service you offer people in your region you haven't gone through the nationally recognized and codified process of being an architect or building designer within an office that does all types of building typologies. You're playing a game of semantics with house and building.
The long impassioned rants you go on to justify your worth only strengthens my own argument. I think you're a good guy and I've learned different things reading your posts but designing houses is not the same thing as being a registered architect who has gone through the process.
Aug 1, 15 5:22 pm ·
·
rob_c,
I will be more than willing to close down my building design business when I'm offer a meaningful job offer at an architectural firm office which includes a means and methods for handling moving/relocating costs.
I'm not asking necessarily for moving expense as a gift but if it means, allowing me to work at a part time level until sufficient money is able to send the down payment on rent which is usually 3 to 6 months has to be paid up front but rent in Portland, Oregon is like $1200 a month for an apartment in Portland downtown area near the work area so I am not having to commute through the entire city trying to make it through the cluster f--- of traffic and arrive to work on time.
Unless there is a serious job offer, I'm going to continue the business as a building designer.
What a registered architect does is up to the registered architect. I agree that there are differences in designing a college building for example, than there is for a house. Right now, my local economy is still sluggish due to state political environment that is stifling. From a business perspective, projects needing houses to be designed and built in Oregon is tricky. Astoria for example isn't a place for new construction. It is a place for historic preservation, restoration, etc. I believe you know that.
I can pursue building designer certification but I am largely waiting on some more meaningful projects and also for ANSI accreditation process of the NCBDC certification program.
I am a designer but preceding designer with 'building' or 'residential' or 'Home', etc., it about describing more precisely what kind of a designer to a client.
If I said, I'm a designer. What kind of designer? Landscape, Boat, Yacht, Interior, Cartoon, Graphic, Web, Sign, etc.
The list gets VERY VERY long so how would I define to a client clearly what kind of designer. I can't use the title 'architectural designer'.
I may complete my bachelor degree for what is left of it but it is highly unlikely that I am going to undergo an M.Arch degree to get an NAAB accredited degree because a lot of it would be undergoing what I already know and it will be costing me a lot of money. I already have ~40K of student loans. Any more than that is financially irresponsible because there isn't the pay in working for an architect. Getting a $130K of loans for an M.Arch and I would never make enough money at entry level IDP 'intern' pay. In a couple years, IDP 'intern' rate will be minimum wage in Oregon when they hit $15/hr. They are already looking at that around 2017. $15/hr is what you get in an architect office at entry level.
Getting an M.Arch would be a slim chance and most if not all on-campus programs would make working for an architect very difficult in a conventional employment relationship.
It is said that it would probably be better for me to work in an architecture firm than pursue an NAAB accredited degree in my case. I will need to be employed at some part time level with an architect to build money and capital while working where I am at before I rent an apartment closer to their office. This is because I barely make enough to eat and pay the bills not exactly a lot over due to sluggish economy.
Aug 1, 15 6:09 pm ·
·
I am more than likely have to find some unconventional ways to get through the licensure.
As for NCBDC certification, I'll probably have to get into the 'stock plans' business to get some more portfolio of work together. It is something that I am not typically involved in but might work to get enough 'years' and projects of substantial scale. Then it would be waiting for ANSI certification.
NCBDC building designer certification is a separate thing from the licensing but sometimes the process for one helps the other in some fashion.
Architecture imo is the creation/manipulation of space. Thats all. Whether it is done with bricks, plants, or pixels it's still architecture...I am interested in (and actively pursing) using my arch education and my years of arch related studies to explore paths less traveled...thats all. I am not trying to ruin the profession or look for short cuts...I just get annoyed by the insane devotion to maintaining the status quo...
jla-x agreed, but for the sake of this discussion it is being defined within the current day parameters of registered vs unlicensed.
Balkins,
All this stuff you described about rent, student loans, relocating, etc are the sacrifices people make to pursue the goal of licensed architecture these days. People take on the debt and live with two or three other people for a few years and subsist off of low quality food because it's worth the investment to them. And they have confidence they can make a living afterwards. Btw you can get income based repayment on loans that work within your personal income. It's just a matter of doing it- there's never a perfectly convenient time or economic situation.
Your title is "exempt structures designer, state of Oregon".
Richard if you were actually designing whole new houses that were being built, you might have an argument that your experience is more comprehensive than some interns' who are working on portions of projects. But you haven't designed any houses - you've already stated that previously. Your entire building designer experience has been on very small renovation projects. Most interns gain broader experience by the time they finish IDP than you have gathered in the history of your business.
NCBDC certification is a pointless diversion - a waste of time and money. Most clients don't have any awareness of it, building officials don't recognize it, and the membership is far too small to have any influence on anything. There is no value. You're throwing money away on it.
Aug 1, 15 8:45 pm ·
·
Actually, I can use the title building designer because it is not a protected title.
IBR only goes so far. I know about that already and am doing that already.
Unlike those who made the sacrifices you are talking about (most of whom did it out of total ignorance of what the profession is like).... how can I be confident that I would have a livable income afterwards? How can I be confident that I would be paid a livable income for the hours of labor... commensurate of the 7-8 years of full-time college studies I already have plus another 3-4 full time college studies.
There's no guarantee. But if you hustle and push yourself to grow you can make it. Otherwise you can hang out with Bigfoot in middle of nowhere Oregon designing "buildings" and debating the architecture community here. It's kind of ridiculous to have to even tell you that. Your position is really cynical about the economy too.
Spontaneous is right on.
Aug 1, 15 9:46 pm ·
·
But architecture school students don't have clients. Broader experience in what... project types? Okay. However, they don't design entire projects from start to finish. It would be against licensing law for them to do so. The architect supervisor would be aiding and abetting unlawful practice of architect if any one intern does more than 50% of the work of any one single project.
My client projects are small but I have spent over 80 hours a week since 2003 in formal academic and self study of architecture, historic preservation, structural engineering, CAD, civil engineering, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, passive solar design, building design, architectural history, and then some. Then there is also my time in practice.
Yes, my projects in Astoria area are commonly renovation, additions, and such projects. The reason is, people don't build new buildings in Astoria. Astoria isn't about new construction. The reason people come to Astoria is for its historic buildings. The whole city is basically a historic museum of historic buildings and houses.
I provide the services in Astoria for what is in need. Most projects that you will find are small projects. Especially since 2008 (the recession began). Oregon hasn't gotten out of the recession per se. We are still in it. We just have some slight improvement but that it.
I can design buildings just to concept level (which is studio work is) all I want but I haven't published those 'academic' stuff because it would be stock plan kind of stuff which I have been avoiding doing as a business. I tend to not put academic course work on my business site because academia is academia. Business is business. So work I do for academia sake is academia. Studio projects are not stock plans. It is only part of the process. Stock plans requires not just concept level drawing prepared but complete construction documents.
Again, what I can display on my business website can only be buildings and projects that are exempt. It isn't that I don't know the same art and science to design a non-exempt building but I do not do that so I don't violate licensing laws and get fined.
The stock plans may help me get more whole building projects but they are rare. Stock plans are in themselves completely designed projects... completed to IRC or IBC standards. Local adjustments may need to be custom made but that is just for explicitly conditions of a local site and client needed changes. Another term for stock plans are pre-drawn plans. Basically, you prepare the plans once with only minor local adjustments as needed and then you sell the plans multiple times to reduce the cost of the stock plans.
I have seen studio projects at UO including final terminal project. Guess what, it is only the concept drawings akin to most basic stock plans. I never seen a studio project in architecture school at UO that was construction document level. At best, design development level but not construction document level. They look like something in between schematic and design development.
I've been there for 3 years. I had opportunity to see numerous projects. I've seen students spend time making 3d model, poche plans basically to the level of detail of the drawings you see on the stock plans used for presentation, a rendering or two and a physical model.
That's fine but no one demonstrates familiarity of a drafting standards whatsoever. This is what I seen of architecture school projects and UO isn't all that different than any other NAAB accredited program.
You might spend a lot more time doing all the fancy graphical bells and whistles but they don't get the permits for clients.
However, my work has liability... interns don't.
Stock plan business works on the notion that the plans will be used for construction. My local clientele tends to not to have new construction. When I mean portions of a project, I mean not just portions of a building but portions of a project such as only involved in schematic design.
I'll be preparing some stock plans to be launched on a stock plan site platform which I would be working on in the upcoming months.
It probably won't be live until later in the year given the work to be done to get such a platform functional.
Guess what balkins, those students are now most likely licensed and doing full CD sets. And when Astoria needs a ground up building they will be the ones to get the job.
Richard you wrote within the last week or two that doing stock plans was against your ethos of sustainably sited projects.
You've also posted that you don't believe that students in Oregon are allowed to draw construction documents in studio because that would constitute practicing architecture and violate licensing laws.
You're completely inconsistent - you just use whatever excuse is convenient at the given moment to avoid doing anything.
It's not going to be a selling point to most employers that you spent 14+ years in college, or that you're 30 something and have next to no employment history, or that you've read 1000 pdfs of drafting manuals from the turn of the last century. And when they google you, which they will, it's not going to be a selling point that you've spent literally thousands of hours on internet forums for the last 15 years. And they will be afraid to introduce you to anyone, lest clients google you too and see your offensive anti-client rants. And they will be wary of hiring you because you've repeatedly written that you don't like people, don't like working in teams, know more than everyone, etc.
You need to get off the internet and get a JOB. Build an employment history. Get some references. Save some money and move out of your parents' house. Live an adult life.
You say you're not going to take an architecture job until you get somebody to pay for relocation, etc. - but when was the last time you actually applied for an architecture job? Or any job?
Aug 1, 15 10:27 pm ·
·
rob_c,
My cynicism comes from all the years of this recession and all the ranting and complaining that I have seen from all the forums about architecture firm employers.
I would love to see a better economy and better prospects for paying off the loans but I have NEVER EVER seen once any college, university, etc. lower its tuition. At the cost they are now and projection for tuition increase which will happen when minimum wage goes up... I will expect to see college tuition go up another $20 per credit at the University.
I love to feel more confident that the economy will be better that I would have a livable income but I have to pretty much be engaged in two occupations JUST to make ends meet.
I haven't been seeing anything to improve that outlook. I need to see something to improve my confidence in the process.
You say you're working 80 hours a week at 2 occupations. But you also say you're struggling to pay for food and bills - even though you're living with parents. That would suggest you're not at all successful on your current path. Change paths. Get a paying job - in ANYTHING - and save some money to relocate.
You may need to live with roommates for awhile. Or maybe you could look into a house sharing arrangement - where you do basic chores for an elderly person in exchange for living for free - in a better job market. If you're ever going to start a real career you're running short on time to do it. You're frittering away years, getting nowhere. Employers are especially hesitant about people over 40 who lack substantial employment histories. If you don't make something happen for yourself soon you may never be able to.
Aug 1, 15 11:15 pm ·
·
Then student work can not be compared to work that requires a permit. If you paid attention to what I said, Sponty, the context was clearly about non-exempt buildings. If the buildings are exempt or project was in regards to exempt buildings then damn it, they need to at least learn that.
Doing construction documents on non-exempt projects without a license is a violation of the licensing laws. That was the point I was getting at at the original posting where I wrote that.
Stock plans, are kind of in conflict with sustainably sited design ethos which makes it discomforting. It still is. As I said, it was part of why I been apprehensive. I am still personally apprehensive about it but lets say it may just be stepping out my comfort zone here on a little leap of faith.
Let see, I applied for jobs in 2013 or 2014. As for architectural jobs, I haven't particular applied for architecture jobs on a formal basis since 2007 or 2008. However, I don't apply to every tom dick and harry architecture firm. I apply to those who do projects that I find interesting. I will inquire with those firms before applying regarding jobs.
Regarding moving expense:
Listen very carefully, I am not saying they should be paying my moving expense. What I am saying is being offered to work part-time where I am at (until I have enough money to cover moving expenses) After all, it takes a bit of time figure out what apartments are available and where they are in relation to the firm's office. It isn't like I can run around Portland on a daily basis searching for apartments. It would cost me $50+ a day in gas cost to run around portland for 6 hours a day plus the 2 hours of drive each way for close to 10 hours.
Think about it. Another aspect is contract work. In which case, I am contracted to the firm. So why not?
It isn't that they are just throwing money to cover my moving expense. They are getting work done prior to being brought into the actual office. A sort of trial under contract employment or contract.
The recession has been stressful and I during the height of this recession, I seen every day on virtually all of the architecture forums ranting and raving. Seriously, it had been that way.
Forums in general are for ranting and raving. The rest of us don't let that stop us from finding jobs.
If you haven't applied for architecture jobs in 7 or 8 years, obviously you should try again. Even if it's a "Tom Dick and Harry firm", getting some experience on your resume would be worth putting up with projects you're not that interested in for a year or so.
Something just doesn't add up with you. The rest of us have all managed to get apartments, jobs, finish school, all the normal things that people do. You spend a lot of time writing about how qualified and smart you are - so what's the problem? Why are you living like a perpetual teenager?
Aug 2, 15 12:12 am ·
·
Sponty,
I spend that time but business is slow.
As for two businesses, the other is software work. Software work I am doing is product development. I am having to bootstrap the product work through sweat equity. There is no venture capitalist funding. I would have to signed away the business and the ownership altogether and all revenue to them if I did. Sorry, I am not doing that. I would be doing all the work and getting none of the money. I don't think so. Not unless I have a more favorable position to negotiate.
In the 1980s, there wasn't things like Kickstarter. So, what you did for software development was you create software and find a publisher. Today, it isn't that far different except there is additional means and methods for funding but to use crowdfunding, it takes a bit of work to be done before to get people to back the project.
Crowdfunding is better than VCs in the sense that you don't lose ownership of your business.
I won't get into details about that with you.
Aug 2, 15 12:14 am ·
·
Sponty,
You realize where I am is zoned for my business use. Other places raises the cost to operate as a business. I can not legally operate a business inside an apartment. It would be a non-conforming use and also a potential violation of rental agreement.
Right now, I do not have client visit me. I meet the client at either the client's place or at some place agreed upon to meet at.
You are suggesting getting a job but I am over-qualified for working for jobs that doesn't customarily require a degree like McDonald's. I'm also too many years older then the other employees.
I've been self-employed/running my own business. Yes, it is rough lets remember that the recession hit about two years into my business. From 2008 to 2011, there had not been a single job opening ANYWHERE in Oregon and Washington. 3 years without a single job. Now, 2012 to 2015, it there hasn't been many jobs.
Aside from that, when looking for architectural job position openings, I read the minimum qualifications. When I see a specific degree requirement, I don't apply to jobs that says an NAAB degree is required. The reason is simple: When a business requires a degree, every applicant's application/resume that does not indicate possessing the required degree is not considered at all and thrown in the circular file.
I don't waste my time applying to such position especially when I don't personally know the people who would be reviewing the application because I wouldn't have much of an opportunity to talk with them. These days, it seems like the only way into an architecture office job is through personal connection.
Aside from all that. A think I consider is how would I personally add to the architecture firms. I consider firms that does the kinds of work that my education background encompasses. I have yet to find a job posting at an architecture firm that doesn't require an NAAB accredited degree.
Aug 2, 15 2:08 am ·
·
"Something just doesn't add up with you. The rest of us have all managed to get apartments, jobs, finish school, all the normal things that people do. You spend a lot of time writing about how qualified and smart you are - so what's the problem? Why are you living like a perpetual teenager?"
Why would I rent a place to run my business when I don't have to rent? I run my business out of my home because cost would be significantly less. I can have telephone service for minute cost a year. I can have internet without much issue. Taxes is less than $3000 a year. So why would I want to pay rent for a place in Portland at $1000/mo. When the cost of taxes, utilities, etc. are all less than $1000/mo. Do the math and I'm looking at a lot less cost and I would have more sq.ft.
I would rather form a business partnership with an architect or two then increase my debt and actually build income base but if all my income is going out the door in loan repayment... that is keeping my finances tied up. I have enough issues with that.
Nice veiled threat, tintt. Why do you even come here anymore? You have nothing good, ever, to say about anything related to architecture. Take your bitterness to some other forum and try to be helpful for a change.
Anyways, Architecture is a creative field with many facets. Groups like AIA (despite the good intentions of the individual members) tend to form a status quo which tends to reject the things that threaten the status quo. In other words, groups are inherently represenative of the center. I am not saying that the AIA is bad, but rather that groups in general are anti-creative. Groups are counter productive in the creative arts and sciences.
Actually, tintt, you've clearly got a lot to offer this discussion, so to make sure everyone understands where your expertise is coming from, answer this:
How many years have you been an AIA member, and in what capacity, and how recently?
How many architecture firms have you worked in, in what capacity, and how recently?
jla-x, if one works at SOM they are working within an in-house team that includes experts on curtain walls, and HVAC integration, and structure, and interior fitouts, and communication of design intent, and urban design, and crowd circulation, and etc etc etc....How does that group of deep knowledge lead to an anti-creative solution?
I think you're relying on a very outdated notion of the architect as hero-genius. Architecture and the advances in the discipline are entirely due to concerted effort by groups working towards a somewhat common intent.
Richard: If a firm advertises that an NAAB degree is required and it's a big enough firm to have a dedicated HR person (say 50 people or more) then it's true your resume isn't that likely to make it past the gatekeeper. But if the firm is smaller, it may or may not be an issue. These days the hiring climate is better and some firms aren't finding exactly what they advertise for, so if your cover letter, portfolio, etc. make it clear that you have an equivalent knowledge base and skills you may have a decent shot. In small firms somebody usually does read the applicants' stuff a little more carefully and consider them on a case by case basis. If a firm is looking for a drafter, production person, all-around office help, whatever, you can make a case for being a good fit. Don't get hung up on not having a personal connection. If they're advertising then they haven't found somebody through a personal connection at this particular moment. Make a good impression at an interview.
Running a business from an apartment isn't necessarily a problem. I'm speaking from personal experience on that. Many apartments are zoned for mixed use - in most places multi-family housing is more likely to be zoned that way than single-family homes are. Most landlords don't have an issue with businesses that create no extra traffic, parking issues, or noise, and don't involve manufacturing. They may just require that you have general business insurance, in case the UPS man falls down the stairs while delivering to you or something like that - that cost me a little under $200 a year when I was running a business from my home. I can also tell you from personal experience that if your parents' phone company discovers that you're using their residential phone line for business, that phone bill may suddenly double or triple, even if you make and receive only a handful of business calls per year.
Yes you're overqualified for some jobs, and much older than the people who usually take those jobs. But you have to start somewhere. And you're only getting older.
As for why you'd want to move your business: Because you keep saying that you don't get good projects in your current location. No new homes ever. Not enough projects to go around. And you've spent the last 10+ years looking for alternative routes to getting licensed, but there isn't any that won't involve at least some work for an architect, and you keep stressing that there are no opportunities with architects near you.
Waiting around for an opportunity where you can fulfill IDP by working completely remotely is just going to keep you waiting around for the rest of your life. You know, 20 years ago I used to follow the forums on the long-defunct e-architect.com, which was the AIA's first website in the mid 1990s. There was a guy on there who was a lot like you, though a little older - he had gone to architecture school for a few years but not graduated, and had once worked briefly as a drafter in the office of some architects who were regionally-semi-well-known, and then started his own drafting company, and felt that this combo of experience should be enough to qualify him to take the licensing exams. He ranted about this for several years, and sent long letters to the AIA, NCARB, and his state board - but never took anyone's advice to just go get an intern-level job for a couple years and get it over with. His drafting company was struggling - not enough good projects to go around, couldn't work on most commercial buildings, etc. But he was always too smart, too experienced, too old, to just suck up his pride and go draft for a couple years! One day he just stopped posting, so I googled him and found that he'd passed away. He was 60 and died suddenly of a heart attack. It's very sad that he never got what he wanted - just ranted about it and made excuses for more years than it would have taken him to reach his goal. Don't end up like that. Now is the time to get what you want, even though there will be some hardships.
Donna, Design by group is a different discussion. I am convinced that art cannot be achieved by groups. Design is another matter. Specialization leads to efficiency, but also naturally mutes any sense of authorship...that can be good or bad depending on the goal. A memorial such as the Vietnam memorial could not have been concieved by group. An office complex or airport would 100% benefit from groups of specialists. One would be insaine if they tried to take on such a complex project as the "hero architect."
The AIA has its benefits, and like I said, personally everyone I have met at meetings were helpful and nice, but as a group they tend to act like a group...protecting their interests first and foremost...a profession should never take priority over a discipline. And imo, a dicipline is benefited by diversity and inclusion. Lets not forget that many of the best and brightest, from Eames to FLW to Ando, were products of unconventional paths...I kinda want these people around to see what they can do...America has a very strange obsession with ridgid beurocracy and process...Often, ground breaking innovations come from left field...
I'm finding my way around the issues at getting IDP and where necessary experience path to licensure in Washington. I'll keep the NAAB accredited degree as still on the list of still possible to attain.
It's August, Balkins, if you were serious about this shit, you'd be enrolled to take all your courses to finish that degree by early next year, and you'd be taking the GRE three months from now.
Otherwise, welcome to another wasted year.
(You probably have a lot more experience than I do - the big difference is that I was like "fuck this shit" a few years ago and go my license in single, painful 8-month stint -, and I am finding that procuring jobs over here isn't too hard - aside from the reference issues I've posted about here. The best ones come through references though. The guys at Starbucks have gotten to know me, near biblically, just because I schedule coffee with people there constantly. That's all I've got to say on that subject. Getting my license has paid for itself over and over; as has the upper tier school degree via the network it has allowed me to tap into.)
AIA
jesus....is an electrician on a job i am working on now.......anyway, gods name in vein, Jesus - let jla-x give a fuck about the built environment.....i am an AOR for many unlicensed people who care more about a good real environment than many sticks up their Ass AIA... hey note it out,diaconnect from the GC,its not your fault national standard notes can not be built,detach yourself from building.......i care about everything on my projects....switching to lap top...hold on
I'm talking about honestly representing the fact that one does indeed have an "architecture degree." Even when used in a way to promote/decribe your credentials for the purpose of procuring work in an architecturally related but non-regulated field it is legally ok...
fuck faces! yes you with a license? fancy pants AIA members, especially...studied architecure, gives a fuck about building - give them a license.
you have insurance, good for you? (i have 2 states, working on 3 - paperwork, woopdie dooo)
you detach yourself from your REAL decisions?
I don't.
I argue with framers all the time - "You want me to do it, don't make the architect get his Ryobi drill and nail gun out!"....
Dewalt is for contractors with money."i'll fuckin build it you lazy bastard, OSHA...OSHA? I don't care i''ll show you how to fasten a board!"
"oh you don't have 2"x6" on site, fine do it with 2"x4", let me draw on the drawings! you still want a change order?"
paperwork and AIA members are the intermediates between idea and reality, go ahead and protect this stupid bull shit position.!
oh, I am an AOR for an international Starchitect tooo...wooopdie doo!
carry on with your AIA nonsense..
client couldn't wait for 48 hours to produce the contract (AIA-101) so we issued the draft word doc and called it a day.
why is the AIA important?
sorry, I don't get it.
jla-x,
Let me explain something about profession and licensure. Profession is the occupation, business and practice of that occupation.
This existed long before licensure. Profession and licensure are two different things. Professions did not begin when licensing began. The word profession predates the concept of occupational licensing.
Do a little bit of etymology and the facts will be clear that history of the words, occupations or profession predates licenses which exist at most ~150 years. Profession is essentially another word for vocation.
Architecture has been a vocation where people made a living and conducted as a business for a long time. Architecture has gone through cycles where people may engage from sporadic to full-time depending on the needs. In periods of time when demand is low, architecture profession can be hard to conduct as a sole occupation at full-time basis. People will often engage in various vocations even concurrently to live.
Therefore a person maybe in not one profession but many professions so that they will always be busy.
Licensing of the architecture profession is a new concept of the past century and a half.
In the U.S., talks of licensing of the profession goes back to the 1830s in the AIA's (American Institute of Architects) short lived predecessor the AIA (American Institution of Architects). Even then, they have been talking about the profession as already a profession BEFORE there was any licensing laws.
Architecture wasn't just something a rich politician such as Thomas Jefferson did. There are people who did the profession as a living and that has been going on long before the the Roman Empire. Even before the Greeks.
The thing is, profession is the exercising of knowledge and skills of a discipline as a vocation (for a living for some means of compensation or remuneration be it money, gifts, or otherwise). It has been going on as long as people have been trading their knowledge and skills for something in return.
Profession and Trade isn't all that different. Professions are a trade even when we do not want to be associated with the so called "neanderthal" builders. Then this is attitude of academia culture to non-academia trained professionals - the ivory tower holier than thou attitude syndrome.
Lets remember, trade goes its meaning from the days where we exercise the trading of skills and knowledge for compensation.
It doesn't matter whether or not the trade is knowledge centered (theory-centered) or hands craft skills (skill/practice-centered). Trade is trade. You trade knowledge & skills for money. We do that today even when we are in an academic institution teaching. Teaching is a trade because teachers do it for pay. They don't work for free. I'm not saying that they are rich or get great pay.
A discipline is the collective body of knowledge and skills of a subject matter. A person can only learn a portion of the knowledge and skills that can be learned of a subject matter. There is always more that can be learned even if one manage to learn all the known knowledge and skills of a discipline's subject matter.... there is still knowledge and skills to be discovered in regards to any and all subject matters.
The biggest problem with licensing laws is that it makes the cost of entering a profession because it creates a bureaucratic environment comparable to that of the Vogons.
It stifles growth because people only talk about how to get license but not the subject in which the profession is about. It only feeds an academic system that explodes in cost in terms of tuition as the institution's enrollment increases and never lowers. You would think the more students an institution has, the lower the cost would be but it doesn't work that way. It just makes the administrators more rich with bigger paychecks to the universities' presidents, provosts and other upper tier administrators.
So when student enrollment dips, tuition goes up. So, how can people afford to go to college for every subject discipline? It isn't like there is sufficient money, jobs, etc. It isn't there. We need to embrace all paths to learning a subject matter of a discipline in terms of knowledge and skills and then through processes and then test thoroughly.
If it means we employ a more comprehensive test then we do. However, that is also a subject matter that has been discussed for many years but lets ask ourselves this? How often do we really have deep commitment to expanding the knowledge and skills of the discipline of Architecture and then apply it to the professional practice of architecture? How often do we really discuss how to design and build better buildings? Not just artistically but scientifically from the scientific side of architecture. Yes, architecture is art and science but we tend to ignore and outsource it? When we outsource, we stop learning that knowledge and skills as we stop practicing.
I do not link profession/professional with being licensed. Being licensed simply means being licensed. It doesn't make a person a professional or what they do a profession. Profession and Professional is only defined in state laws so as to defined the intent and meaning in the context of interpreting state laws and enforcing it. It is not the alpha and omega of the meaning of the words 'profession' or 'professional'. It is only a statutory definition or an administrative rule definition to narrow the meaning for purpose of defining the interpretive meaning of the particular laws and rules so when a lawyer or enforcement authority is tasked with interpreting and enforcing the laws / rules, they have a relative degree of consistent understanding and interpretation in recognition that words have diverse meanings that can be widely interpreted so to have interpretive stability, definitions are defined but that is where the definition ends.
Therefore, if I want to describe my work as architectural then in proper context, I have the right to do so because of a prevailing Supreme law of the country, the U.S. Constitution which includes the 1st amendment and the 5th and 14th amendment.
The internet is one jurisdiction that is legally outside the jurisdiction of the licensing board as they would exceed there jurisdiction, right then and there except a caveat. If I said, I offer 'architectural services' in Oregon then I linguistically would bring Oregon a jurisdiction because they have the right to protect public from fraud and misrepresentation. There jurisdiction only persist to apply to the actions of a person when there is legal nexus of impact. When the nexus of my choice of words becomes sufficient to have a legal effect as in terms of implied marketing services to those who are citizens of Oregon or those who hold properties in Oregon.
However, the rule of state authority to sanction against me for fraud or misrepresentation is when I state false representation. If however, what I say is true, then I have a legal right to say so.
If I said, "I am an architect where I am authorized to practice as an architect".
Now the question is.... is that false? Is that misrepresentation? or is it true.
Think about that for a bit before reacting.
put it in a haiku Balkins!
dude, none of this really matters. i mean really, not legally.
jla-x,
Careful... given that any form of communication we have and interact with people is marketing, too! Given that our professional work life and private life in intertwine so much that it is one in the same.
In essence, my professional and business life doesn't begin at 9AM and end at 5pm. It is 24/7 in so many ways that even when conversing with people... that is marketing. That is public relation. In my business, I don't clock in and clock out aside from when I wake up and go to sleep.
Therefore, my social networking personally is also professionally and social networking professionally is also personally. I believe this is very much true and factual for ALL sole-practitioners of any occupation.
The law isn't limited to just paid ads in a phone book or newspaper or online directories like Angie's List. When we do not confine our entire professional and private life in distinct time slots, notions of clean delineation of when we are engaged in personal life and professional / vocation, marketing, PR, etc. of our business is not so simple.
We have more complicated professional/private life.
Anyone can say they have an architecture degree. It isn't a violation and that is norm for a long time. The issue isn't those clear, cut and dry issues. The contention isn't in those areas.
Olaf,
I never been much of a Haiku artist... though.
you can do it man.
I tend to stop reading when I see too much Balkins so I've been tuned out but I was thinking... I am engaged in another profession (while also being a small time designer and arch school grad) and I am a member of a professional organization that brings referrals of about $30k-40k annually which is pretty good for a small business of 3-4 people. The membership costs $90. If AIA could do that for me, I would join in a heartbeat, maybe they can or do give referalls, if so, how? Returning to the original poster's Q, What do you get out of it?
What organization tint?
International Dyslexia Association
Question....I have seen several designers, refered to by others, as providing architectural design or as architects in online reviews and articles, is that a violation if others use those terms?
jla-x, no. Read a damn practice act. It's so, so simple, which is why these endless arguments about the same topic over and over frustrate me so much!
Donna gets opportunities to travel. (BTW, might want to not leave a bunch of comments on the internet like telling people they have sticks up their asses if you want to be FAIA)
jla-x,
Although this isn't directly related to your question. I'll tell you a story of a tail of dealing with licensing board investigation process.
I been through it with Oregon and Washington (at the same time) over an Angie's Listing. However in my case, it was in fact a mechanism outside my reasonable control. I believe ended up removing my business listing with Angie's List altogether because it put me through enough headache that I don't want to have anything to do with them.
The end of the case, I was not fined by either state.
Unlicensed designers needs to be careful about listing ones business in business listings.
When I listed my business there in the online directory there, I listed my business under "Architects and Building Design". This isn't a violation of law as the title is fair and true. Discomforting to me but okay because the listing category is "Architects and Building Design". Why wouldn't I list myself there? I'm a building designer. What I do is building design.
The ones who filed the complaints to the boards did not show my ad as it is viewed by those on Angie's List which would be correct. Here is where the problem is: Angie's List lead landing page thinggy that is accessed publicly and cached by search engines is auto-generated from the main listing but it has some CRUCIAL FLAWS.
Instead of correctly listing the landing page profile using the correct category title of "Architects and Building Design" that it simply listed the category title of "Architect" which is where the hang up and problem.
The landing page is auto-generated. The auto-generation script is completely outside my control. Therefore the error in listing was founded in to be in their fault. There was no unreasonable intent to mislead or represent myself as an architect in that case. In fact, it was determined to be a fault resulting in their landing page auto-generation coding/scripts. Short of engaging in cyber-crime, I don't have access to editing their scripts/coding and database so from that end. Therefore, their auto-generation scripting were creating 'landing pages' that were not entirely in jive with my actual Angie's List profile.
I went as far as setting a temporary password to my Angie's List from which the the licensing board's investigator can look at for his own eyes what my Angie's List profile looked like from within the account. Shortly afterwards, I restored my password to the account.
Washington administratively closed the case. Oregon then subsequently at their board meeting closed the case as well.
The gist of the story is, if it is clear that you were not intending violating the law and you take effort to correct the matters to the extent of your ability, then they will not fine you.
If however, you go around in so called personal socialization referring to yourself as an architect and you are referred to as one then that is a violation because really, when you are in leadership of a business such as owning on, your business and life is basically one. There isn't exactly a separation of personal and professional life with sole-proprietorship. Whenever you are socially engaging with others, you are conducting P.R. and passive marketing if not active marketing on behalf of your business. Especially in the architectural field where services are procured by informal social relationships. It isn't like we get our services procured by a formal process except in large projects that firms under go.
There is a big difference in what residential/light commercial focused architects and building designers services are procured compared to that of firms that are procured by procurement networks like ORPIN in Oregon which public projects are often procured through like civic, governmental, educational, etc.
Architects make big personal and financial sacrifices to achieve their goals. They go through rigorous academic training, IDP("real world"), and grueling exams.
They are then endowed with the power to design anything from a dog house to the Petronas towers.
Following prescriptive code and knowing how to read framing plans for a single family house is not the same as doing a hospital or an airport or a museum or mall etc. It's an apples to oranges argument. End of story.
Actually, architectural practitioners who are licensed have restricted the term "architect" to such a small percentage of people actually doing architecture they have pretty much lost the term to the Information Technology people. Meanwhile, they are viewed as total morons both by the informed public and by the university architecture graduates in their own offices doing the work for their firms. You can't coherently speak of "licensed architects" because you have to be licensed to be an architect. In the same vein you cant speak of "unlicensed architects" because if a person is unlicensed he or she is not an architect. So, in a supposedly "creative" profession, there is no name for people who have spent five years at a university studying architecture, earned an architecture degree, got a job at an architecture firm, and spend their workdays designing buildings.
rob_c,
Houses are buildings. We can design other types of buildings as well. You say, architects makes big personal and financial sacrifices to achieve their goal. You think I haven't? Don't get full of yourself in your so called sacrifices.
Personal sacrifices... lol. You think you are that unique and special. The only special, I would call you is short bus special.
Designing houses and other exempt buildings is a bit more involved than following 'prescriptive code' and reading framing plans. You realize how stupid you sound? It's called building codes. The last I recall, building codes have prescribed requirement like prescribed live load requirements for hospitals, museums, and airport buildings. You have prescriptive methods for framing. You also have alternative methods which involves using accepted/approved engineering standards to design/engineer alternate methods of construction that meets the building code load requirements.
Oh, yeah, 'reading framing plans' ? Are you serious? I thought it was preparing framing plans not just reading it. Aren't you sounding so stupid there. Now, I don't know about you but building design involves the same art and science as it is for licensed Architects. I had been dealing with contracted project scale because of the recession.
IDP... okay and that means what. You want a bleeping cookie? Being involved with 10,20, or other <100% of a project vs. designing an entire house where you are fully and 100% liable. Ok... so what.
I have legal responsibility to my clients. Generally, the unlicensed intern is not a valid legal target to sue in a negligence case because they are an employee of their employer, operating under the employer's direction through their chain of command via the chain of supervision and employer is liable to their employee's actions. While I have full legal responsibility to my client because I have a contraction relationship with the client and therefore a duty of care.
What's your point?
The long impassioned rants you go on to justify your worth only strengthens my own argument. I think you're a good guy and I've learned different things reading your posts but designing houses is not the same thing as being a registered architect who has gone through the process.
rob_c,
I will be more than willing to close down my building design business when I'm offer a meaningful job offer at an architectural firm office which includes a means and methods for handling moving/relocating costs.
I'm not asking necessarily for moving expense as a gift but if it means, allowing me to work at a part time level until sufficient money is able to send the down payment on rent which is usually 3 to 6 months has to be paid up front but rent in Portland, Oregon is like $1200 a month for an apartment in Portland downtown area near the work area so I am not having to commute through the entire city trying to make it through the cluster f--- of traffic and arrive to work on time.
Unless there is a serious job offer, I'm going to continue the business as a building designer.
What a registered architect does is up to the registered architect. I agree that there are differences in designing a college building for example, than there is for a house. Right now, my local economy is still sluggish due to state political environment that is stifling. From a business perspective, projects needing houses to be designed and built in Oregon is tricky. Astoria for example isn't a place for new construction. It is a place for historic preservation, restoration, etc. I believe you know that.
I can pursue building designer certification but I am largely waiting on some more meaningful projects and also for ANSI accreditation process of the NCBDC certification program.
I am a designer but preceding designer with 'building' or 'residential' or 'Home', etc., it about describing more precisely what kind of a designer to a client.
If I said, I'm a designer. What kind of designer? Landscape, Boat, Yacht, Interior, Cartoon, Graphic, Web, Sign, etc.
The list gets VERY VERY long so how would I define to a client clearly what kind of designer. I can't use the title 'architectural designer'.
I may complete my bachelor degree for what is left of it but it is highly unlikely that I am going to undergo an M.Arch degree to get an NAAB accredited degree because a lot of it would be undergoing what I already know and it will be costing me a lot of money. I already have ~40K of student loans. Any more than that is financially irresponsible because there isn't the pay in working for an architect. Getting a $130K of loans for an M.Arch and I would never make enough money at entry level IDP 'intern' pay. In a couple years, IDP 'intern' rate will be minimum wage in Oregon when they hit $15/hr. They are already looking at that around 2017. $15/hr is what you get in an architect office at entry level.
Getting an M.Arch would be a slim chance and most if not all on-campus programs would make working for an architect very difficult in a conventional employment relationship.
It is said that it would probably be better for me to work in an architecture firm than pursue an NAAB accredited degree in my case. I will need to be employed at some part time level with an architect to build money and capital while working where I am at before I rent an apartment closer to their office. This is because I barely make enough to eat and pay the bills not exactly a lot over due to sluggish economy.
I am more than likely have to find some unconventional ways to get through the licensure.
As for NCBDC certification, I'll probably have to get into the 'stock plans' business to get some more portfolio of work together. It is something that I am not typically involved in but might work to get enough 'years' and projects of substantial scale. Then it would be waiting for ANSI certification.
NCBDC building designer certification is a separate thing from the licensing but sometimes the process for one helps the other in some fashion.
rob c, I find it limiting that architects reduce architecture to bulding design. Historically it has a much broader scope.
Architecture imo is the creation/manipulation of space. Thats all. Whether it is done with bricks, plants, or pixels it's still architecture...I am interested in (and actively pursing) using my arch education and my years of arch related studies to explore paths less traveled...thats all. I am not trying to ruin the profession or look for short cuts...I just get annoyed by the insane devotion to maintaining the status quo...
Balkins,
All this stuff you described about rent, student loans, relocating, etc are the sacrifices people make to pursue the goal of licensed architecture these days. People take on the debt and live with two or three other people for a few years and subsist off of low quality food because it's worth the investment to them. And they have confidence they can make a living afterwards. Btw you can get income based repayment on loans that work within your personal income. It's just a matter of doing it- there's never a perfectly convenient time or economic situation.
Your title is "exempt structures designer, state of Oregon".
Richard if you were actually designing whole new houses that were being built, you might have an argument that your experience is more comprehensive than some interns' who are working on portions of projects. But you haven't designed any houses - you've already stated that previously. Your entire building designer experience has been on very small renovation projects. Most interns gain broader experience by the time they finish IDP than you have gathered in the history of your business.
NCBDC certification is a pointless diversion - a waste of time and money. Most clients don't have any awareness of it, building officials don't recognize it, and the membership is far too small to have any influence on anything. There is no value. You're throwing money away on it.
Actually, I can use the title building designer because it is not a protected title.
IBR only goes so far. I know about that already and am doing that already.
Unlike those who made the sacrifices you are talking about (most of whom did it out of total ignorance of what the profession is like).... how can I be confident that I would have a livable income afterwards? How can I be confident that I would be paid a livable income for the hours of labor... commensurate of the 7-8 years of full-time college studies I already have plus another 3-4 full time college studies.
There's no guarantee. But if you hustle and push yourself to grow you can make it. Otherwise you can hang out with Bigfoot in middle of nowhere Oregon designing "buildings" and debating the architecture community here. It's kind of ridiculous to have to even tell you that. Your position is really cynical about the economy too.
Spontaneous is right on.
But architecture school students don't have clients. Broader experience in what... project types? Okay. However, they don't design entire projects from start to finish. It would be against licensing law for them to do so. The architect supervisor would be aiding and abetting unlawful practice of architect if any one intern does more than 50% of the work of any one single project.
My client projects are small but I have spent over 80 hours a week since 2003 in formal academic and self study of architecture, historic preservation, structural engineering, CAD, civil engineering, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, passive solar design, building design, architectural history, and then some. Then there is also my time in practice.
Yes, my projects in Astoria area are commonly renovation, additions, and such projects. The reason is, people don't build new buildings in Astoria. Astoria isn't about new construction. The reason people come to Astoria is for its historic buildings. The whole city is basically a historic museum of historic buildings and houses.
I provide the services in Astoria for what is in need. Most projects that you will find are small projects. Especially since 2008 (the recession began). Oregon hasn't gotten out of the recession per se. We are still in it. We just have some slight improvement but that it.
I can design buildings just to concept level (which is studio work is) all I want but I haven't published those 'academic' stuff because it would be stock plan kind of stuff which I have been avoiding doing as a business. I tend to not put academic course work on my business site because academia is academia. Business is business. So work I do for academia sake is academia. Studio projects are not stock plans. It is only part of the process. Stock plans requires not just concept level drawing prepared but complete construction documents.
Again, what I can display on my business website can only be buildings and projects that are exempt. It isn't that I don't know the same art and science to design a non-exempt building but I do not do that so I don't violate licensing laws and get fined.
The stock plans may help me get more whole building projects but they are rare. Stock plans are in themselves completely designed projects... completed to IRC or IBC standards. Local adjustments may need to be custom made but that is just for explicitly conditions of a local site and client needed changes. Another term for stock plans are pre-drawn plans. Basically, you prepare the plans once with only minor local adjustments as needed and then you sell the plans multiple times to reduce the cost of the stock plans.
I have seen studio projects at UO including final terminal project. Guess what, it is only the concept drawings akin to most basic stock plans. I never seen a studio project in architecture school at UO that was construction document level. At best, design development level but not construction document level. They look like something in between schematic and design development.
I've been there for 3 years. I had opportunity to see numerous projects. I've seen students spend time making 3d model, poche plans basically to the level of detail of the drawings you see on the stock plans used for presentation, a rendering or two and a physical model.
That's fine but no one demonstrates familiarity of a drafting standards whatsoever. This is what I seen of architecture school projects and UO isn't all that different than any other NAAB accredited program.
You might spend a lot more time doing all the fancy graphical bells and whistles but they don't get the permits for clients.
However, my work has liability... interns don't.
Stock plan business works on the notion that the plans will be used for construction. My local clientele tends to not to have new construction. When I mean portions of a project, I mean not just portions of a building but portions of a project such as only involved in schematic design.
I'll be preparing some stock plans to be launched on a stock plan site platform which I would be working on in the upcoming months.
It probably won't be live until later in the year given the work to be done to get such a platform functional.
Richard you wrote within the last week or two that doing stock plans was against your ethos of sustainably sited projects.
You've also posted that you don't believe that students in Oregon are allowed to draw construction documents in studio because that would constitute practicing architecture and violate licensing laws.
You're completely inconsistent - you just use whatever excuse is convenient at the given moment to avoid doing anything.
It's not going to be a selling point to most employers that you spent 14+ years in college, or that you're 30 something and have next to no employment history, or that you've read 1000 pdfs of drafting manuals from the turn of the last century. And when they google you, which they will, it's not going to be a selling point that you've spent literally thousands of hours on internet forums for the last 15 years. And they will be afraid to introduce you to anyone, lest clients google you too and see your offensive anti-client rants. And they will be wary of hiring you because you've repeatedly written that you don't like people, don't like working in teams, know more than everyone, etc.
You need to get off the internet and get a JOB. Build an employment history. Get some references. Save some money and move out of your parents' house. Live an adult life.
You say you're not going to take an architecture job until you get somebody to pay for relocation, etc. - but when was the last time you actually applied for an architecture job? Or any job?
rob_c,
My cynicism comes from all the years of this recession and all the ranting and complaining that I have seen from all the forums about architecture firm employers.
I would love to see a better economy and better prospects for paying off the loans but I have NEVER EVER seen once any college, university, etc. lower its tuition. At the cost they are now and projection for tuition increase which will happen when minimum wage goes up... I will expect to see college tuition go up another $20 per credit at the University.
I love to feel more confident that the economy will be better that I would have a livable income but I have to pretty much be engaged in two occupations JUST to make ends meet.
I haven't been seeing anything to improve that outlook. I need to see something to improve my confidence in the process.
You say you're working 80 hours a week at 2 occupations. But you also say you're struggling to pay for food and bills - even though you're living with parents. That would suggest you're not at all successful on your current path. Change paths. Get a paying job - in ANYTHING - and save some money to relocate.
You may need to live with roommates for awhile. Or maybe you could look into a house sharing arrangement - where you do basic chores for an elderly person in exchange for living for free - in a better job market. If you're ever going to start a real career you're running short on time to do it. You're frittering away years, getting nowhere. Employers are especially hesitant about people over 40 who lack substantial employment histories. If you don't make something happen for yourself soon you may never be able to.
Then student work can not be compared to work that requires a permit. If you paid attention to what I said, Sponty, the context was clearly about non-exempt buildings. If the buildings are exempt or project was in regards to exempt buildings then damn it, they need to at least learn that.
Doing construction documents on non-exempt projects without a license is a violation of the licensing laws. That was the point I was getting at at the original posting where I wrote that.
Stock plans, are kind of in conflict with sustainably sited design ethos which makes it discomforting. It still is. As I said, it was part of why I been apprehensive. I am still personally apprehensive about it but lets say it may just be stepping out my comfort zone here on a little leap of faith.
Let see, I applied for jobs in 2013 or 2014. As for architectural jobs, I haven't particular applied for architecture jobs on a formal basis since 2007 or 2008. However, I don't apply to every tom dick and harry architecture firm. I apply to those who do projects that I find interesting. I will inquire with those firms before applying regarding jobs.
Regarding moving expense:
Listen very carefully, I am not saying they should be paying my moving expense. What I am saying is being offered to work part-time where I am at (until I have enough money to cover moving expenses) After all, it takes a bit of time figure out what apartments are available and where they are in relation to the firm's office. It isn't like I can run around Portland on a daily basis searching for apartments. It would cost me $50+ a day in gas cost to run around portland for 6 hours a day plus the 2 hours of drive each way for close to 10 hours.
Think about it. Another aspect is contract work. In which case, I am contracted to the firm. So why not?
It isn't that they are just throwing money to cover my moving expense. They are getting work done prior to being brought into the actual office. A sort of trial under contract employment or contract.
The recession has been stressful and I during the height of this recession, I seen every day on virtually all of the architecture forums ranting and raving. Seriously, it had been that way.
Forums in general are for ranting and raving. The rest of us don't let that stop us from finding jobs.
If you haven't applied for architecture jobs in 7 or 8 years, obviously you should try again. Even if it's a "Tom Dick and Harry firm", getting some experience on your resume would be worth putting up with projects you're not that interested in for a year or so.
Something just doesn't add up with you. The rest of us have all managed to get apartments, jobs, finish school, all the normal things that people do. You spend a lot of time writing about how qualified and smart you are - so what's the problem? Why are you living like a perpetual teenager?
Sponty,
I spend that time but business is slow.
As for two businesses, the other is software work. Software work I am doing is product development. I am having to bootstrap the product work through sweat equity. There is no venture capitalist funding. I would have to signed away the business and the ownership altogether and all revenue to them if I did. Sorry, I am not doing that. I would be doing all the work and getting none of the money. I don't think so. Not unless I have a more favorable position to negotiate.
In the 1980s, there wasn't things like Kickstarter. So, what you did for software development was you create software and find a publisher. Today, it isn't that far different except there is additional means and methods for funding but to use crowdfunding, it takes a bit of work to be done before to get people to back the project.
Crowdfunding is better than VCs in the sense that you don't lose ownership of your business.
I won't get into details about that with you.
Sponty,
You realize where I am is zoned for my business use. Other places raises the cost to operate as a business. I can not legally operate a business inside an apartment. It would be a non-conforming use and also a potential violation of rental agreement.
Right now, I do not have client visit me. I meet the client at either the client's place or at some place agreed upon to meet at.
You are suggesting getting a job but I am over-qualified for working for jobs that doesn't customarily require a degree like McDonald's. I'm also too many years older then the other employees.
I've been self-employed/running my own business. Yes, it is rough lets remember that the recession hit about two years into my business. From 2008 to 2011, there had not been a single job opening ANYWHERE in Oregon and Washington. 3 years without a single job. Now, 2012 to 2015, it there hasn't been many jobs.
Aside from that, when looking for architectural job position openings, I read the minimum qualifications. When I see a specific degree requirement, I don't apply to jobs that says an NAAB degree is required. The reason is simple: When a business requires a degree, every applicant's application/resume that does not indicate possessing the required degree is not considered at all and thrown in the circular file.
I don't waste my time applying to such position especially when I don't personally know the people who would be reviewing the application because I wouldn't have much of an opportunity to talk with them. These days, it seems like the only way into an architecture office job is through personal connection.
Aside from all that. A think I consider is how would I personally add to the architecture firms. I consider firms that does the kinds of work that my education background encompasses. I have yet to find a job posting at an architecture firm that doesn't require an NAAB accredited degree.
"Something just doesn't add up with you. The rest of us have all managed to get apartments, jobs, finish school, all the normal things that people do. You spend a lot of time writing about how qualified and smart you are - so what's the problem? Why are you living like a perpetual teenager?"
Why would I rent a place to run my business when I don't have to rent? I run my business out of my home because cost would be significantly less. I can have telephone service for minute cost a year. I can have internet without much issue. Taxes is less than $3000 a year. So why would I want to pay rent for a place in Portland at $1000/mo. When the cost of taxes, utilities, etc. are all less than $1000/mo. Do the math and I'm looking at a lot less cost and I would have more sq.ft.
I would rather form a business partnership with an architect or two then increase my debt and actually build income base but if all my income is going out the door in loan repayment... that is keeping my finances tied up. I have enough issues with that.
Nice veiled threat, tintt. Why do you even come here anymore? You have nothing good, ever, to say about anything related to architecture. Take your bitterness to some other forum and try to be helpful for a change.
Anyways, Architecture is a creative field with many facets. Groups like AIA (despite the good intentions of the individual members) tend to form a status quo which tends to reject the things that threaten the status quo. In other words, groups are inherently represenative of the center. I am not saying that the AIA is bad, but rather that groups in general are anti-creative. Groups are counter productive in the creative arts and sciences.
Actually, tintt, you've clearly got a lot to offer this discussion, so to make sure everyone understands where your expertise is coming from, answer this:
How many years have you been an AIA member, and in what capacity, and how recently?
How many architecture firms have you worked in, in what capacity, and how recently?
jla-x, if one works at SOM they are working within an in-house team that includes experts on curtain walls, and HVAC integration, and structure, and interior fitouts, and communication of design intent, and urban design, and crowd circulation, and etc etc etc....How does that group of deep knowledge lead to an anti-creative solution?
I think you're relying on a very outdated notion of the architect as hero-genius. Architecture and the advances in the discipline are entirely due to concerted effort by groups working towards a somewhat common intent.
Richard: If a firm advertises that an NAAB degree is required and it's a big enough firm to have a dedicated HR person (say 50 people or more) then it's true your resume isn't that likely to make it past the gatekeeper. But if the firm is smaller, it may or may not be an issue. These days the hiring climate is better and some firms aren't finding exactly what they advertise for, so if your cover letter, portfolio, etc. make it clear that you have an equivalent knowledge base and skills you may have a decent shot. In small firms somebody usually does read the applicants' stuff a little more carefully and consider them on a case by case basis. If a firm is looking for a drafter, production person, all-around office help, whatever, you can make a case for being a good fit. Don't get hung up on not having a personal connection. If they're advertising then they haven't found somebody through a personal connection at this particular moment. Make a good impression at an interview.
Running a business from an apartment isn't necessarily a problem. I'm speaking from personal experience on that. Many apartments are zoned for mixed use - in most places multi-family housing is more likely to be zoned that way than single-family homes are. Most landlords don't have an issue with businesses that create no extra traffic, parking issues, or noise, and don't involve manufacturing. They may just require that you have general business insurance, in case the UPS man falls down the stairs while delivering to you or something like that - that cost me a little under $200 a year when I was running a business from my home. I can also tell you from personal experience that if your parents' phone company discovers that you're using their residential phone line for business, that phone bill may suddenly double or triple, even if you make and receive only a handful of business calls per year.
Yes you're overqualified for some jobs, and much older than the people who usually take those jobs. But you have to start somewhere. And you're only getting older.
As for why you'd want to move your business: Because you keep saying that you don't get good projects in your current location. No new homes ever. Not enough projects to go around. And you've spent the last 10+ years looking for alternative routes to getting licensed, but there isn't any that won't involve at least some work for an architect, and you keep stressing that there are no opportunities with architects near you.
Waiting around for an opportunity where you can fulfill IDP by working completely remotely is just going to keep you waiting around for the rest of your life. You know, 20 years ago I used to follow the forums on the long-defunct e-architect.com, which was the AIA's first website in the mid 1990s. There was a guy on there who was a lot like you, though a little older - he had gone to architecture school for a few years but not graduated, and had once worked briefly as a drafter in the office of some architects who were regionally-semi-well-known, and then started his own drafting company, and felt that this combo of experience should be enough to qualify him to take the licensing exams. He ranted about this for several years, and sent long letters to the AIA, NCARB, and his state board - but never took anyone's advice to just go get an intern-level job for a couple years and get it over with. His drafting company was struggling - not enough good projects to go around, couldn't work on most commercial buildings, etc. But he was always too smart, too experienced, too old, to just suck up his pride and go draft for a couple years! One day he just stopped posting, so I googled him and found that he'd passed away. He was 60 and died suddenly of a heart attack. It's very sad that he never got what he wanted - just ranted about it and made excuses for more years than it would have taken him to reach his goal. Don't end up like that. Now is the time to get what you want, even though there will be some hardships.
Donna, Design by group is a different discussion. I am convinced that art cannot be achieved by groups. Design is another matter. Specialization leads to efficiency, but also naturally mutes any sense of authorship...that can be good or bad depending on the goal. A memorial such as the Vietnam memorial could not have been concieved by group. An office complex or airport would 100% benefit from groups of specialists. One would be insaine if they tried to take on such a complex project as the "hero architect."
The AIA has its benefits, and like I said, personally everyone I have met at meetings were helpful and nice, but as a group they tend to act like a group...protecting their interests first and foremost...a profession should never take priority over a discipline. And imo, a dicipline is benefited by diversity and inclusion. Lets not forget that many of the best and brightest, from Eames to FLW to Ando, were products of unconventional paths...I kinda want these people around to see what they can do...America has a very strange obsession with ridgid beurocracy and process...Often, ground breaking innovations come from left field...
Just interesting.....
“….harbor of refuge for the incompetent….refined gangsterizm”
https://youtu.be/hyb7hwjZnvw
Sponty,
I see where you are getting at.
I'm finding my way around the issues at getting IDP and where necessary experience path to licensure in Washington. I'll keep the NAAB accredited degree as still on the list of still possible to attain.
It's August, Balkins, if you were serious about this shit, you'd be enrolled to take all your courses to finish that degree by early next year, and you'd be taking the GRE three months from now.
Otherwise, welcome to another wasted year.
(You probably have a lot more experience than I do - the big difference is that I was like "fuck this shit" a few years ago and go my license in single, painful 8-month stint -, and I am finding that procuring jobs over here isn't too hard - aside from the reference issues I've posted about here. The best ones come through references though. The guys at Starbucks have gotten to know me, near biblically, just because I schedule coffee with people there constantly. That's all I've got to say on that subject. Getting my license has paid for itself over and over; as has the upper tier school degree via the network it has allowed me to tap into.)
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.