Just so you and our old friend Sponty know, due to a subsequent rule change in IDP since my initial process of IDP Enrollment Eligibility date paperwork, IDP Eligibility date process had been eliminated, my IDP record still stands. In fact, I had already had an IDP Record # for some time before I had enrolled in IDP. I had also already provided proof of my GED as proof of high school equivalency. Which mean, my IDP enrollment is entirely based on the current rules. I had not submitted ANY hours for IDP training hours until after that had already been done.
So regardless, they have not retained the old IDP Eligibility date. That went bye bye when they discontinued :
Essentially, IDP eligibility in either case and for purpose of any hours submitted is under the rule that came into effect in December 2013. So in other words, my eligibility is entirely based on meeting the high school diploma or equivalent which has already been submitted and on file. So they discarded the stuff from this form: http://www.ncarb.org/~/media/Files/PDF/Applications-Forms/IDP_eligibility_date_3.pdf
and they removed the Eligibility Date because it is no longer applicable to the IDP program.
So hence forth, it doesn't matter anymore about my Cooperative Work Experience. It is not being used for my IDP anyway and I would have to try to have it re-verified again but the Architect is now dead so what is the point and that goes back how long and for what to what point?
All my IDP hours would be valid to the rules as they stand.
Original Poster: my advice is to follow a general course of architectural education for now - don't worry too much about where you eventually want to practice - it's not the most critical of criteria at this stage of your education.
Licensing laws aren't so complex and singular that you won't be able to navigate them when the time comes.
Richard I second the advice to be quieter about your past projects, IDP details, licensing plans...
1. They rarely have anything to do with the question at hand.
2. The more detail you provide, the more you're digging yourself into a hole. Whether or not you're hunky dory with NCARB's current rules isn't the issue. As I read it, by your own admission you "bent" some rules back when the rules were different. If you ever knowingly submitted false information, that's a moral character issue that doesn't magically clear itself up when the rules change. Knowingly submitting false information for purposes of professional licensing, at any point, is grounds for denial of a license in most professions in most states. If I were you I'd stop posting details.
Stretching a definition of the rule is NOT the same thing as breaking the rule. Remember, NCARB doesn't have detail or precise definition of being paid. In addition, the rule in effect at the time of IDP Enrollment included 'independent contractor" relationship when IDP 2.0 phase two amendments to the IDP rules came into effect January 1, 2010. Given the rules written the way they were for Eligibility Date, nothing was written that says I can't use qualifying experience older than the reporting rule to establish the IDP elibility date just that none of the hours will actually count into the IDP training hours.
Under law, there is no minimum wage for independent contractors. Therefore, minimum wage doesn't apply so I could be paid as little as a penny and it would still be legally defined as paid by Federal and State law for independent contractor relationship.
NCARB does not have a specific rule anywhere in its documentation about what minimum pay is. In accordance with law, NCARB has to accept independent contractor relationship experience under Experience Setting A regardless of pay as long as there is a transaction of payment equally at least one unit of U.S. currency which the smallest unit of U.S. currency is a penny. So, for as little as 1-cent, it still counts legally as being paid. There is and was no rule of minimum wage or minimum wage equivalency. Again, it exceeds the jurisdictional power of the licensing boards and NCARB to enforce contradict legally defined statutes.
So as long as there was a pay, it counts. Unpaid internship is when you are paid $0.00 for internship. In fact, you can get IDP credit for paid internship even if you get academic credit but it has to be paid. So, what is paid internship? When you are paid the legal minimum pay for type of relationship be it typical employment or contract employment or independent contractor relationship.
What is the legal minimum pay for an independent contractor?
Is it false information to NCARB? No, not really. It is so old of an experience that I wouldn't get IDP training hours for it anyway. I still received 0 IDP training hours because it was outside the reporting rule but after discussing with NCARB staff, it would satisfy establishing an eligibility date which no longer applies as they redefined IDP eligibility so my eligibility is still met.
Given that NCARB fails to define exactly what "paid" is in "paid internship", therefore, I am legally entitled to use established statutory and judicial case law of paid and I could hold NCARB or even OBAE in contempt if they try to deny my IDP experience over any of this. Stretching a definition is not breaking the law. I don't have to follow INTENT of law or rules. I only have to follow the law or rule. They already established acceptance of independent contractor relationship, then they also need to accept whatever by law constitutes as being paid. What constitutes as the minimum amount an independent contractor can be paid in the United States?
Therefore, NCARB by law has to accept that OR they have to define by rule and publish clearly a minimum pay amount.
They did not and do not to this very day have such defined rule.
So are they going to contest me and the word of an architect who is now dead?
Maybe, when they looked at this, they decided to administratively change the rule soon after to just require proof of high school diploma or equivalent and not get caught up in a legal dispute for decades when I have my corporate attorney give them a hard time for years.
You are assuming the information is false but who says so. The fact I am not telling you or people on the forums clear details is intentional but that doesn't mean that information wouldn't be provided to NCARB or OBAE. There is a difference between giving people I don't know from a hole in the wall on a web forum unclear information to that of providing the information to the licensing boards and NCARB. Why would I tell you what I get paid. It is none of your business. If NCARB or OBAE asked, I'd tell them.
NCARB didn't ask what my pay was. For example: If I was paid $5.00, it still complies as being paid. There is no legal requirement of minimum pay per hour for independent contractor relationship. As long as I got paid, I got paid. NCARB doesn't have a defined rule what the minimum amount of money one must get per hour to be considered being paid. If there isn't a rule and isn't published in the IDP Guidelines and published rules, then NCARB can not require something that isn't published or they would be facing class action lawsuits that would bankrupt them.
Since NCARB doesn't want that headache, I bet it was simpler and better for them to just simplify IDP Eligibility in which I already have submitted sufficient proof.
Jun 29, 15 3:49 pm ·
·
Whether NCARB changed the IDP Eligibility rule after my enrollment because of me or not is ENTIRELY irrelevant and besides the point.
If you know anything about law, rule changes can and do have retroactive implications.
It is not my fault NCARB changed rules that I can use my own experience for establishing IDP Eligibility Date. There isn't anything in NCARB rule that says past experience can't be retroactively applied for IDP Eligibility Date. They didn't say the experience for IDP Eligibility Date had to be within the 6+2 month reporting rule.
Subsequently, NCARB changed the rule so only a high school diploma or equivalent is needed to be furnished which I already had provided that.
Richard Balkins are you real? Do you understand how the internet works? If you can't remember your lies you shouldn't lie on the internet. It took 5 seconds to find where you wrote before "It was done on pro bono basis because the 'client' was CWE Program director/coordinator. So to leave money out of the picture. The degree requires a work experience program and the Astoria area doesn't have many firms. There is only one architectural firm within 75 to 100 miles. He wasn't hiring at the time. There is only 2 engineering firms, they weren't hiring. So I have to be creative about how I deal with it. Sole-proprietors in my area do NOT hire employees. They don't get enough work and commission work to warrant hiring employees. I wasn't an employee. The architect wasn't paying me. There was no money exchanged. Not one penny." There you said you were paid "not one penny" but here you say you were paid. One is a lie which one? I'm going to use this as a case study for my ethics class, I'll let you know what my prof says.
Richard not sure why you went off into this lengthy ramble I have been checking in on every so often........people keep warning you, you ramble and contradict yourself constantly....whats the purpose here? btw when I applied the state did google me and sent me a letter to remove the word "architecture" from my website at the time, I did, got my license, whatever.....but yeah some state official will read all of this.......good luck.
Jun 29, 15 9:05 pm ·
·
JBeaumont,
It was pro-bono to the client. The contract between me and the architect was paid.
Basically, between me and client and architect and client... it was pro-bono. Between me and Architect was based on really $5.00.
Which part is the lie?
The part where I said not one penny and the architect not paying me, was b.s. Well... sort of.
However, I wasn't employed as an employee. I was an independent contractor.
If you use it for ethics class, please not use name and alter name of city. Okay.
Here's what the thing is: I was paid $5.00 by the Architect. The Architect wasn't paid by the client and neither was I. In that regard, it was pro-bono.
Narcissism, typified by grandiose lies, exaggeration of accomplishments and abilities, and a belief in entitlement to special treatment. And borderline personality disorder, displaying evasive dishonest statements, impulsive actions taken even when obvious they will lead him into trouble, a desire to divert attention away from those negative actions for which he deserves blame, and a persisting belief that all of his problems are the responsibility of others.
Where can I practice architecture?
Just so you and our old friend Sponty know, due to a subsequent rule change in IDP since my initial process of IDP Enrollment Eligibility date paperwork, IDP Eligibility date process had been eliminated, my IDP record still stands. In fact, I had already had an IDP Record # for some time before I had enrolled in IDP. I had also already provided proof of my GED as proof of high school equivalency. Which mean, my IDP enrollment is entirely based on the current rules. I had not submitted ANY hours for IDP training hours until after that had already been done.
So regardless, they have not retained the old IDP Eligibility date. That went bye bye when they discontinued :
http://www.ncarb.org/News-and-Events/News/2013/12-DecIDPchanges.aspx
Essentially, IDP eligibility in either case and for purpose of any hours submitted is under the rule that came into effect in December 2013. So in other words, my eligibility is entirely based on meeting the high school diploma or equivalent which has already been submitted and on file. So they discarded the stuff from this form: http://www.ncarb.org/~/media/Files/PDF/Applications-Forms/IDP_eligibility_date_3.pdf
and they removed the Eligibility Date because it is no longer applicable to the IDP program.
So hence forth, it doesn't matter anymore about my Cooperative Work Experience. It is not being used for my IDP anyway and I would have to try to have it re-verified again but the Architect is now dead so what is the point and that goes back how long and for what to what point?
All my IDP hours would be valid to the rules as they stand.
Original Poster: my advice is to follow a general course of architectural education for now - don't worry too much about where you eventually want to practice - it's not the most critical of criteria at this stage of your education.
Licensing laws aren't so complex and singular that you won't be able to navigate them when the time comes.
Richard I second the advice to be quieter about your past projects, IDP details, licensing plans...
1. They rarely have anything to do with the question at hand.
2. The more detail you provide, the more you're digging yourself into a hole. Whether or not you're hunky dory with NCARB's current rules isn't the issue. As I read it, by your own admission you "bent" some rules back when the rules were different. If you ever knowingly submitted false information, that's a moral character issue that doesn't magically clear itself up when the rules change. Knowingly submitting false information for purposes of professional licensing, at any point, is grounds for denial of a license in most professions in most states. If I were you I'd stop posting details.
My, you're a defensive one, aren't you?
Adorable.
Stretching a definition of the rule is NOT the same thing as breaking the rule. Remember, NCARB doesn't have detail or precise definition of being paid. In addition, the rule in effect at the time of IDP Enrollment included 'independent contractor" relationship when IDP 2.0 phase two amendments to the IDP rules came into effect January 1, 2010. Given the rules written the way they were for Eligibility Date, nothing was written that says I can't use qualifying experience older than the reporting rule to establish the IDP elibility date just that none of the hours will actually count into the IDP training hours.
Under law, there is no minimum wage for independent contractors. Therefore, minimum wage doesn't apply so I could be paid as little as a penny and it would still be legally defined as paid by Federal and State law for independent contractor relationship.
NCARB does not have a specific rule anywhere in its documentation about what minimum pay is. In accordance with law, NCARB has to accept independent contractor relationship experience under Experience Setting A regardless of pay as long as there is a transaction of payment equally at least one unit of U.S. currency which the smallest unit of U.S. currency is a penny. So, for as little as 1-cent, it still counts legally as being paid. There is and was no rule of minimum wage or minimum wage equivalency. Again, it exceeds the jurisdictional power of the licensing boards and NCARB to enforce contradict legally defined statutes.
So as long as there was a pay, it counts. Unpaid internship is when you are paid $0.00 for internship. In fact, you can get IDP credit for paid internship even if you get academic credit but it has to be paid. So, what is paid internship? When you are paid the legal minimum pay for type of relationship be it typical employment or contract employment or independent contractor relationship.
What is the legal minimum pay for an independent contractor?
Is it false information to NCARB? No, not really. It is so old of an experience that I wouldn't get IDP training hours for it anyway. I still received 0 IDP training hours because it was outside the reporting rule but after discussing with NCARB staff, it would satisfy establishing an eligibility date which no longer applies as they redefined IDP eligibility so my eligibility is still met.
Given that NCARB fails to define exactly what "paid" is in "paid internship", therefore, I am legally entitled to use established statutory and judicial case law of paid and I could hold NCARB or even OBAE in contempt if they try to deny my IDP experience over any of this. Stretching a definition is not breaking the law. I don't have to follow INTENT of law or rules. I only have to follow the law or rule. They already established acceptance of independent contractor relationship, then they also need to accept whatever by law constitutes as being paid. What constitutes as the minimum amount an independent contractor can be paid in the United States?
Therefore, NCARB by law has to accept that OR they have to define by rule and publish clearly a minimum pay amount.
They did not and do not to this very day have such defined rule.
So are they going to contest me and the word of an architect who is now dead?
Maybe, when they looked at this, they decided to administratively change the rule soon after to just require proof of high school diploma or equivalent and not get caught up in a legal dispute for decades when I have my corporate attorney give them a hard time for years.
You are assuming the information is false but who says so. The fact I am not telling you or people on the forums clear details is intentional but that doesn't mean that information wouldn't be provided to NCARB or OBAE. There is a difference between giving people I don't know from a hole in the wall on a web forum unclear information to that of providing the information to the licensing boards and NCARB. Why would I tell you what I get paid. It is none of your business. If NCARB or OBAE asked, I'd tell them.
NCARB didn't ask what my pay was. For example: If I was paid $5.00, it still complies as being paid. There is no legal requirement of minimum pay per hour for independent contractor relationship. As long as I got paid, I got paid. NCARB doesn't have a defined rule what the minimum amount of money one must get per hour to be considered being paid. If there isn't a rule and isn't published in the IDP Guidelines and published rules, then NCARB can not require something that isn't published or they would be facing class action lawsuits that would bankrupt them.
Since NCARB doesn't want that headache, I bet it was simpler and better for them to just simplify IDP Eligibility in which I already have submitted sufficient proof.
Whether NCARB changed the IDP Eligibility rule after my enrollment because of me or not is ENTIRELY irrelevant and besides the point.
If you know anything about law, rule changes can and do have retroactive implications.
It is not my fault NCARB changed rules that I can use my own experience for establishing IDP Eligibility Date. There isn't anything in NCARB rule that says past experience can't be retroactively applied for IDP Eligibility Date. They didn't say the experience for IDP Eligibility Date had to be within the 6+2 month reporting rule.
Subsequently, NCARB changed the rule so only a high school diploma or equivalent is needed to be furnished which I already had provided that.
Richard Balkins are you real? Do you understand how the internet works? If you can't remember your lies you shouldn't lie on the internet. It took 5 seconds to find where you wrote before "It was done on pro bono basis because the 'client' was CWE Program director/coordinator. So to leave money out of the picture. The degree requires a work experience program and the Astoria area doesn't have many firms. There is only one architectural firm within 75 to 100 miles. He wasn't hiring at the time. There is only 2 engineering firms, they weren't hiring. So I have to be creative about how I deal with it. Sole-proprietors in my area do NOT hire employees. They don't get enough work and commission work to warrant hiring employees. I wasn't an employee. The architect wasn't paying me. There was no money exchanged. Not one penny." There you said you were paid "not one penny" but here you say you were paid. One is a lie which one? I'm going to use this as a case study for my ethics class, I'll let you know what my prof says.
Richard not sure why you went off into this lengthy ramble I have been checking in on every so often........people keep warning you, you ramble and contradict yourself constantly....whats the purpose here? btw when I applied the state did google me and sent me a letter to remove the word "architecture" from my website at the time, I did, got my license, whatever.....but yeah some state official will read all of this.......good luck.
JBeaumont,
It was pro-bono to the client. The contract between me and the architect was paid.
Basically, between me and client and architect and client... it was pro-bono. Between me and Architect was based on really $5.00.
Which part is the lie?
The part where I said not one penny and the architect not paying me, was b.s. Well... sort of.
However, I wasn't employed as an employee. I was an independent contractor.
If you use it for ethics class, please not use name and alter name of city. Okay.
Here's what the thing is: I was paid $5.00 by the Architect. The Architect wasn't paid by the client and neither was I. In that regard, it was pro-bono.
what? seriously.
Olaf,
Purpose? Keep you all guessing?
yeah.
guessing what? your malfunction?
Have you got a guess?
hmmm.....you're a bot programmed by Richard Balkins, that would be cool. you are not real, even cooler.........or you live in a van down by the river
You say I can't be real?
What is real? Are you real? How do you know if you are real?
Narcissism, typified by grandiose lies, exaggeration of accomplishments and abilities, and a belief in entitlement to special treatment. And borderline personality disorder, displaying evasive dishonest statements, impulsive actions taken even when obvious they will lead him into trouble, a desire to divert attention away from those negative actions for which he deserves blame, and a persisting belief that all of his problems are the responsibility of others.
Sounds like an Architect.
My head exploded when I read "Commodore 64"
Because you aren't keeping up with the Commodore because Commodore is keeping up with you.
LOL!
it's all in my Commodore 64 head - George Berkley - i used to program in that shit as a kid, Sprites are Cool!
my favorite game was R-Type on Cassette, that's right, you had to rewind to play again!
actually Balkin's, you said something right...what JB describes is a Architect!
Yep.
R-Type was cool and among the games I liked. Hard to pick a favorite but there were many great games.
SID tunes.... kicked ass
Giana Sisters (C64 version of Mario Brothers)
Test Drive - The Duel
Top Gun
and the best - Skate or Die!
Olaf,
Back to something architecture related.... when did you get licensed and where?
RB, is sippin on the sizzurp
in my head I have always been licensed but in the real world outside of Commodore 64, 3 years ago, 2 states, east coast
Cool.
HHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
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