I accepted a job at a decent sized engineering firm, Hubbell, Roth, and Clark over the weekend, more money, super close to home, and because its about a 2 person arch. department, wider variety of experience. The bad thing is the work is mostly pump houses and small municipal type projects that they get by adding architecture to their existing engineering contracts.
quite a change from the giant/complex retail centers I'm working on now.
Told the my mentor/principle this morning, he says I'll top out quickly and won't be challenged at HRC. Also that if I stay there too long it would be near impossible to get back into "real architecture."
Couple hours later he offered me a 10% raise + a bonus to stay and said they were only doing that because they don't want to see me make a bad career move.
What do people think - would it be disastrous or is the wider experience viewed as plus even though the projects are far less glamorous?
You should move on, because you have already made the decision to do so.
Your current boss is an idiot; he never should have countered after you resigned. You already made the professional and emotional commitment to leave, obviously you think it is the right move for your career, and your bosses opinion of the new job isn't about the work, it is about trying to manipulate you into staying where you are.
You are never supposed to convince somebody to stay after they have resigned, because it creates a power shift. You know that they need you more than you need them. You have already quit emotionally, which means you are not really going to give as much of a shit about the work and essentially you can just coast till you find something better, which you were already looking for in the first place.
Shu, don't know, but I do know a guy that made that exact move, he ended up opening/running a branch office and taking them from an E to an E/A. Find these E guys like A and if given a chance will add the A....the question isn’t what will they do, the question is what you will do and the answer should be “lead”.
My favorite part is about them giving you a boost only to save you from disaster, not sure that would be the kind of boost I would have been looking for.
shuellmi: given your current employer's overture, I think you have a hard decision to make - i.e. negotiate something better with your current boss or make the move you've already decided to make.
In my experience, there's a reason engineering firms pay higher than architecture firms -- that reason is primarily because they have difficulty attracting (and retaining) top talent. To a large extent your current boss has given you solid advice -- you are likely to find the work uninteresting and you will top out very early on. And, the longer you stay the less attractive you'll become to the typical architectural firm because your experience there will be so narrow. Also, it's extremely unlikely you'll ever make it into the higher ranks of management or ownership within an engineering firm.
The only real exception to my comments above would be if you are highly entrepreneurial and truly believe you can grow their architecture department significantly in size. However, I've known a number of very strong architects who have tried this in the past and they've all experienced years of excruciating frustration -- mainly because the engineering culture really doesn't understand (or care to understand) what's necessary to make that happen.
I'm not suggesting that you'll make a huge mistake if you make the move to the engineering firm -- you'll be better paid and you're likely to learn a lot in the short term. But, I have difficulty seeing it as a good long-term career direction -- if you go that way, you'll probably want to keep your eyes and ears open for escape routes back to 'real' architecture firms.
Most likely not, it is an engineering firm. You may do "boring" projects, but in the end I would think that the money counts more. Also, engineering firms usually have a little more respect for your services than architecture firms. Most architecture firms have been spoiled rotten from getting so many qualified individuals to choose from after the recession that many have lost all integrity for their employees.
I'd be jumping ship asap from architecture if something more 'engineering' related popped up. Sounds like your boss is trying to scare you too.
I would do something along the lines of miles suggestion. A 10% raise isn't shit... I would think that you could squeeze a little more out of the engineering office if it wasn't 10% over what you make now. Either way, if you boss does give in and give you say a 25% raise, he is going to make you pay, either excessive labor expectations or belittle you personally.
The E world does make more than we do just look at your consultant bills, thus pay more. When I slid over to a contractor to put him into design/build he loved everything I did, even the shit…they can’t do what you do and I’d think you would garner more respect there than here.
Also for what it’s worth whenever this happen to me as an employer I always considered it a “hold-up”, I just couldn’t get past it.
In my opinion, take the new job. I agree with what has been said that the emotional commitment to leave has already happened and you can't really turn back now. I had a similar situation where an engineering firm offered quite a bit more money and the chance to be the only designer among engineers therefore my own department, but I stayed at the arch firm because the principal convinced me to stay and it was a mistake... I definitely had a big case of the "what-if's" and found it hard to deliver when I had committed to quitting. I got a raise to stay too, but it wasn't as much as was promised to keep me, so I was a little upset about that. And my co-workers found out and accused me of using threats to leave to get a raise, so they all did the same thing--marched into the boss's office one-by-one (oh the drama) and demanded a raise to stay and while they all got raises too, no one was happy.
I think one of the bosses comments is closest to the truth and quizzical echoed it saying that in the short term it can be good - just don't stay too long. Unless everyone is really blowing smoke I'm pretty sure i could return if i really hated it or didn't see it going anywhere.
Perhaps this is the optimism of someone who's never really failed before, but i see a lot of potential and to opportunity to shape my career vs. slaving away to maybe make partner in 15-20 years
i also have other interests (development) and a 5 minute commute would really beneficial
Mar 2, 15 10:03 pm ·
·
Let me state this. if you haven't finished IDP, finish it. Get through the ARE exams and be licensed if you haven't completed.
The thing to keep in mind is, are the engineers willing to let the architecture division grow and be sort of a company in and of itself within the company or do they see it as secondary, peripheral... say... just to do the 'architectural' portion of the engineering projects.
For an architect oriented person like yourself, I would reason you want the experience to be a full service architectural experience. Therefore, your team needs to be bringing in projects other than just those associated with public works/civil engineering kind of stuff.
If you see little traction of expanding architectural side of things into a full-service architectural division in 6-9 months where the engineering partners (and probably founders) are resistant.. you may want to get out of there.
I would advise you finish licensure process if you haven't.
If you are not seeing real progress and the work is boring and lots of resistance from the engineers, I'd recommend getting out as quickly as possible and have resume ready to go and have an exit plan ready.
Just for fun, assuming that engineering firms lack enough interest in architecture may be historically incorrect.... of the ENR top 50 design firms 15 are EA and only 5 start with an A. The top 2 architectural firms in my area are EA. Engineering firms get entrenched into municipalities, county governments and the military prefer to work with them. They get in doing bridges, roads and treatment plants and things spread.... been said that work comes from relationships and these guys have that in spades. Our new federal court house was awarded to an Ea, and the lower case "a" is not a typo.
Something similar to this happened to me last year. I was offered a position that I wasn't 100% certain about, told my boss that I was leaving for it, then he offered me more money to stay, so I did.
Within months I found myself again itching to leave that position, so I searched again and found a position that was a much better match for what I was looking for. I still keep in touch with my old boss and am on good terms with him. I'm glad things played out the way they did.
I think only you can make this decision, but my point is that I think things will even out for you in the end either way. If you stay, you can always keep searching, and if you leave, worst case is that it doesn't work out and you find something better in a few months. Can't blame anyone for not wanting to keep a position they're not satisfied with.
Regarding tcarch's post... just read that and wonder what if anything that employer could have done to retain him/her...today the needs of employees is so multifaceted that it's almost impossible to guess at..... which may explain why some employers stop guessing and install revolving doors.
maybe take the time to scout a backup position if you're not thrilled with this opportunity?
it's a bit like picking what college to apply to: don't bother applying if you have no intention of going there happily...there are no "backups" when thinking about your life experiences
I've seen counter offers accepted and everything works out fine / I've also seen counter offers accepted and the employee never quite gets back in sync with the organization.
In your case, I think a lot depends on whether you feel you're a good fit with your current employer and whether you're really well regarded there (as opposed to just being a warm body they already know, filling a seat they need to fill).
If you decide not to accept the counter offer, make a solid effort to operate in a totally professional manner, don't let emotions influence your behavior and do everything you can not to burn this bridge -- you may decide you want to go back at some future date. Thank them for the time you spent in their office. They will remember how you conducted yourself.
Good luck -- situations like this can be very stressful.
Career Advice
Big question today....
I accepted a job at a decent sized engineering firm, Hubbell, Roth, and Clark over the weekend, more money, super close to home, and because its about a 2 person arch. department, wider variety of experience. The bad thing is the work is mostly pump houses and small municipal type projects that they get by adding architecture to their existing engineering contracts.
quite a change from the giant/complex retail centers I'm working on now.
Told the my mentor/principle this morning, he says I'll top out quickly and won't be challenged at HRC. Also that if I stay there too long it would be near impossible to get back into "real architecture."
Couple hours later he offered me a 10% raise + a bonus to stay and said they were only doing that because they don't want to see me make a bad career move.
What do people think - would it be disastrous or is the wider experience viewed as plus even though the projects are far less glamorous?
doesn't matter too much because i'm more worried about future earnings/flexibility, but even with the match the new place is paying almost 10% more
You should move on, because you have already made the decision to do so.
Your current boss is an idiot; he never should have countered after you resigned. You already made the professional and emotional commitment to leave, obviously you think it is the right move for your career, and your bosses opinion of the new job isn't about the work, it is about trying to manipulate you into staying where you are.
You are never supposed to convince somebody to stay after they have resigned, because it creates a power shift. You know that they need you more than you need them. You have already quit emotionally, which means you are not really going to give as much of a shit about the work and essentially you can just coast till you find something better, which you were already looking for in the first place.
Shu, don't know, but I do know a guy that made that exact move, he ended up opening/running a branch office and taking them from an E to an E/A. Find these E guys like A and if given a chance will add the A....the question isn’t what will they do, the question is what you will do and the answer should be “lead”.
My favorite part is about them giving you a boost only to save you from disaster, not sure that would be the kind of boost I would have been looking for.
Keep you from making a bad career choice? LOL Odds are you're cheap labor even at +10%.
Ask for 25%, specified bonus and position bump. You could read a lot from their response to that. You're in the drivers seat, nothing to lose.
the idea,from my perspective at least, is to grow the "A" side to be more equal to the E.
apparently my current firm just got a $400 mill. project in california, which only adds to their current labor shortage
i guess what it comes down to is "will this move restrict my options going forward?"
shuellmi: given your current employer's overture, I think you have a hard decision to make - i.e. negotiate something better with your current boss or make the move you've already decided to make.
In my experience, there's a reason engineering firms pay higher than architecture firms -- that reason is primarily because they have difficulty attracting (and retaining) top talent. To a large extent your current boss has given you solid advice -- you are likely to find the work uninteresting and you will top out very early on. And, the longer you stay the less attractive you'll become to the typical architectural firm because your experience there will be so narrow. Also, it's extremely unlikely you'll ever make it into the higher ranks of management or ownership within an engineering firm.
The only real exception to my comments above would be if you are highly entrepreneurial and truly believe you can grow their architecture department significantly in size. However, I've known a number of very strong architects who have tried this in the past and they've all experienced years of excruciating frustration -- mainly because the engineering culture really doesn't understand (or care to understand) what's necessary to make that happen.
I'm not suggesting that you'll make a huge mistake if you make the move to the engineering firm -- you'll be better paid and you're likely to learn a lot in the short term. But, I have difficulty seeing it as a good long-term career direction -- if you go that way, you'll probably want to keep your eyes and ears open for escape routes back to 'real' architecture firms.
Good luck.
Most likely not, it is an engineering firm. You may do "boring" projects, but in the end I would think that the money counts more. Also, engineering firms usually have a little more respect for your services than architecture firms. Most architecture firms have been spoiled rotten from getting so many qualified individuals to choose from after the recession that many have lost all integrity for their employees.
I'd be jumping ship asap from architecture if something more 'engineering' related popped up. Sounds like your boss is trying to scare you too.
I would do something along the lines of miles suggestion. A 10% raise isn't shit... I would think that you could squeeze a little more out of the engineering office if it wasn't 10% over what you make now. Either way, if you boss does give in and give you say a 25% raise, he is going to make you pay, either excessive labor expectations or belittle you personally.
The E world does make more than we do just look at your consultant bills, thus pay more. When I slid over to a contractor to put him into design/build he loved everything I did, even the shit…they can’t do what you do and I’d think you would garner more respect there than here.
Also for what it’s worth whenever this happen to me as an employer I always considered it a “hold-up”, I just couldn’t get past it.
In my opinion, take the new job. I agree with what has been said that the emotional commitment to leave has already happened and you can't really turn back now. I had a similar situation where an engineering firm offered quite a bit more money and the chance to be the only designer among engineers therefore my own department, but I stayed at the arch firm because the principal convinced me to stay and it was a mistake... I definitely had a big case of the "what-if's" and found it hard to deliver when I had committed to quitting. I got a raise to stay too, but it wasn't as much as was promised to keep me, so I was a little upset about that. And my co-workers found out and accused me of using threats to leave to get a raise, so they all did the same thing--marched into the boss's office one-by-one (oh the drama) and demanded a raise to stay and while they all got raises too, no one was happy.
thanks everyone -
I think one of the bosses comments is closest to the truth and quizzical echoed it saying that in the short term it can be good - just don't stay too long. Unless everyone is really blowing smoke I'm pretty sure i could return if i really hated it or didn't see it going anywhere.
Perhaps this is the optimism of someone who's never really failed before, but i see a lot of potential and to opportunity to shape my career vs. slaving away to maybe make partner in 15-20 years
i also have other interests (development) and a 5 minute commute would really beneficial
Let me state this. if you haven't finished IDP, finish it. Get through the ARE exams and be licensed if you haven't completed.
The thing to keep in mind is, are the engineers willing to let the architecture division grow and be sort of a company in and of itself within the company or do they see it as secondary, peripheral... say... just to do the 'architectural' portion of the engineering projects.
For an architect oriented person like yourself, I would reason you want the experience to be a full service architectural experience. Therefore, your team needs to be bringing in projects other than just those associated with public works/civil engineering kind of stuff.
If you see little traction of expanding architectural side of things into a full-service architectural division in 6-9 months where the engineering partners (and probably founders) are resistant.. you may want to get out of there.
I would advise you finish licensure process if you haven't.
If you are not seeing real progress and the work is boring and lots of resistance from the engineers, I'd recommend getting out as quickly as possible and have resume ready to go and have an exit plan ready.
Just in case.
Just for fun, assuming that engineering firms lack enough interest in architecture may be historically incorrect.... of the ENR top 50 design firms 15 are EA and only 5 start with an A. The top 2 architectural firms in my area are EA. Engineering firms get entrenched into municipalities, county governments and the military prefer to work with them. They get in doing bridges, roads and treatment plants and things spread.... been said that work comes from relationships and these guys have that in spades. Our new federal court house was awarded to an Ea, and the lower case "a" is not a typo.
Something similar to this happened to me last year. I was offered a position that I wasn't 100% certain about, told my boss that I was leaving for it, then he offered me more money to stay, so I did.
Within months I found myself again itching to leave that position, so I searched again and found a position that was a much better match for what I was looking for. I still keep in touch with my old boss and am on good terms with him. I'm glad things played out the way they did.
I think only you can make this decision, but my point is that I think things will even out for you in the end either way. If you stay, you can always keep searching, and if you leave, worst case is that it doesn't work out and you find something better in a few months. Can't blame anyone for not wanting to keep a position they're not satisfied with.
Owners Perspective
Regarding tcarch's post... just read that and wonder what if anything that employer could have done to retain him/her...today the needs of employees is so multifaceted that it's almost impossible to guess at..... which may explain why some employers stop guessing and install revolving doors.
maybe take the time to scout a backup position if you're not thrilled with this opportunity?
it's a bit like picking what college to apply to: don't bother applying if you have no intention of going there happily...there are no "backups" when thinking about your life experiences
i've been told its best not to take a counter offer - true?
there are a number of people in this office who've left and returned later, so i doubt the doors will permanently close behind me
I've seen counter offers accepted and everything works out fine / I've also seen counter offers accepted and the employee never quite gets back in sync with the organization.
In your case, I think a lot depends on whether you feel you're a good fit with your current employer and whether you're really well regarded there (as opposed to just being a warm body they already know, filling a seat they need to fill).
If you decide not to accept the counter offer, make a solid effort to operate in a totally professional manner, don't let emotions influence your behavior and do everything you can not to burn this bridge -- you may decide you want to go back at some future date. Thank them for the time you spent in their office. They will remember how you conducted yourself.
Good luck -- situations like this can be very stressful.
very stressful indeed.
my last exam is about 3 weeks from today and have hardly been able to study
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