hi all..i'm a female, korean, staff at an archi firm in Seoul.
i spent around a year in this firm right after i graduated from school (all in seoul)
a year with this firm was okay, not bad and the work was also acceptable. people were nice enough to work together with. but the thing is i wonder some experience is only happening here or only in korea.
there was one occasion that i think is not acceptable. current project that im participating is a public museum. the korean government placed an order. by now there had been lots of meetings and presentations especially with the town hall officials. lots and lots of (boring) submission (which i sometimes feel as.. waste of paper....) (puhaha, time for preparing documents is wayyyyy longer than designing anything) . things were really boring sometimes but i wasn't really being dissatisfied. i was bored but that was what had to be done. but one day, there was a very important official meeting with the people related to this project. public officials who gave the work joined, one or two important people from all cooperative companies(civil,structural,mechanical,electric and etc.) and people from deliberative body(i wonder if this word is being used correctly) joined as well.
after that important meeting, my boss tossed me a mp3 file which was recorded when the meeting was happening and asked me to take the minutes and send the file also to the public officials without any instructions on how. there is a company's way and form to keep the minutes that i have been told before and i have always followed that whenever i had to take. and since that meeting is very important, we do have good reasons to make the record for ourselves and it's possible to give that record to anyone related .
it took me long hours to finish the minutes(jesus really i had to listen to that 90min mp3 file for 3 times because many pple were speaking korean dialect and if they are talking about engineering part it becomes harder) of course i wrote the essence of what pple said. only the key words. so it was a summary i should say and that's how we took the minutes. the boss was away when i was done and i told him that i'm done and about to send this to the public official. it was late in the evening.
next day, i was on my way to the office and it was even before the working hour. i got a direct phone call from the pub. official. i was thinking.. 'what the..;(..'
what he said was, this is a summary not a record. for a record, you should have written all the words(literally all the words) i wish you could do this again and give me a call when u finish sending it to me.
literally all the words..writing any words or sound(some words were so hard to get that i feel them to be just sound, not language..-_-)
Hell, f***. i had to make suggestions for facade design that day.
Another long talk with my boss and he said the offical who called me have to give another report to His boss and that included (their way of) minutes.
i was very upset, really.
why should we do the homework of that officials???? is such thing included in the contract???? we are designers not a clerk. if he needed such minutes, he should have asked his people or if there isn't anyone for such they should have hired the clerks. shouldn't they?
my boss have said that's what happens, that is normal, that's custom in korea.
several weeks have passed but still feeling bad about it.
i wonder if im being so naive, having so much fantasy about working at a archi firm. i wonder if that's the case in other countries ..
after that i feel like never being the part of this korean archi society.. certainly i like designing and i love architecture but works from architecture firms aren't always very acceptable for me. tedious archi labor, giving meaningless suggestions for showing and etc.. all were acceptable but this occasion...
i want to hear how you think toward this happening.
haha. wanna know how it ended? i suggested to my boss to give that stupid assignment to all the cooperative companies so that they would write all the words when the meeting talks about their part. he said yes so i called all the cooperatives and collected their word files, copied and pasted. (but the architectural designing/planning/constructions were ours and it was the longest haah) listened to the mp3 file several times again to make the document complete.
puh, didnt need fancy archi education to work at this company. could have done even after high school. ahahaha
geee.. so long the words.. thank you anyone beforehand for finish reading my messy words..
The correct answer to the public official: "We are not transcribers, we are architects. If you'd like, we can subcontract out a transcriber and send the bill over. What do you think?"
It's a government official; government bills rarely go unpaid; stop enabling inefficiency
There are many small boring tasks that go into creating a building. Get used to it and get a better attitude or feel free to mouth off to anyone you feel like and find yourself looking for a job with a bad recommendation.
i spent around a year in this firm right after i graduated from school (all in seoul)
why should we do the homework of that officials???? is such thing included in the contract???? we are designers not a clerk. if he needed such minutes, he should have asked his people or if there isn't anyone for such they should have hired the clerks. shouldn't they?
my boss have said that's what happens, that is normal, that's custom in korea.
Yeah, if you have other work to be doing i don't know why you wouldn't just farm that out to a professional transcriber. It would be easier and probably cheaper, though if you needed it asap it might not be faster unless you had contacts and priority with someone.
I'd give my boss some looks if they asked me to do a transcription like that. I'd probably do it though.
Everyone does stuff they dont like, especially the first few years. Life doesnt get any easier, best to learn how to deal with it and keep negative thoughts to yourself
"my boss have said that's what happens, that is normal, that's custom in korea."
don't you just hate that? "it is what it is, so just take it." F that.
Learning is one thing, and keeping some fucked up custom is a whole different matter.
ANYWAY, to me, it was your boss' fault for not giving you a proper instruction... but it sounded like your boss is a reasonable person to deal with. I am going thru a series of community meetings for the project here in the States, and the city clerk has been the one who does all that "word for word" transcript.
like others said, architecture is filled with non-architecture tasks...that is just what it takes to get a job done. go do it: go to your boss with an attitude like that and you are going to get fired, especially if they have already taken it upon the firm to complete the task, it is not the place of some intern to point out where a specific task is not the responsibility of the firm just because they are too lazy or whiny to do it.
First off, there is no license requirement for transcribing therefore, if the firm (ie. your employer) offers the services of transcribing, then it is your boss's decision. Then your boss makes the decision of who among his/her staff is going to be tasked to do the job.
In short, when you are employed, you have only one real title.... employee which means "hired person to do whatever task your employer directs you to do." You are not an architect until it is your name and stamp on the drawing and you have the contract. Everyone else employed is employed staff to do whatever they are directed to do.
After all, you can't say necessarily that it is not in your job description because just about every employer everywhere includes a clause to the the effect of (when describing your job duties) - " - whatever else your supervisor assigns to you."
Ha, I should send a box of chocolate to my boss, then.
Feb 28, 15 6:02 pm ·
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I can't say exactly of the rights or freedoms of people in other countries but in the U.S. at least, if the boss hands you money and directs you to go to the store to pick up a box of chocolate then you have to do it. However, a boss can not legally require you to pay for it out of your money and it would be wrongful termination if you were fired for not agreeing to do so and your money is your right as it is your possession which is grounded as a fundamental right protected by the Constitution among other laws.
In other countries, I can't say about the protection of personal property and personal property rights and so forth which includes cash.
In this case, if you wish to send a box of chocolate to your boss, be mindful that you are doing so out of personal choice.
Look, I understand what you guys are saying, so don't get me wrong here. As a professional, you have to be responsible for the task you are AGREED to complete. However, you have a right to voice your opinion professionally. AND, your employers also have to be professional AND respect their employees, hoping they do their homework when they hire their employees.
Everything is personal choice, whether you want to bend over, or say no and go find a better place to work.
i'm pretty sure you're as much of a free person in korea as we are in america. which means you have a choice. which means you always have a choice.
if you feel strongly enough that transcribing is something you cannot or should not do, be it on a professional or moral level, then don't do it. tell your boss and let them know why. just be aware that there are consequences to that decision. there are probably consequences to agreeing to transcribe other people's meetings as well.
it has nothing to do with any constitutions. your employer doesn't own you. make your own decisions. just try to be smart about it.
if someone says you're just too 'entitled' because your a millennial, i give you my permission to tell them to fuck off. those people are never going to help you achieve anything in your life anyway.
A 1 year intern refusing to transcribe meeting notes on moral grounds? Are you serious?
After re-reading her post I get the idea that maybe her interpretation of the meeting missed some salient points and they asked her for a complete transcript for that reason.
If you think enabling her bullshit attitude is going to help her, I do not know what to tell you. What do you think her response is going to be when she is asked to do a door schedule?
"I am a DESIGNER and they asked me to count beans?!"
Feb 28, 15 9:29 pm ·
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fulcrum,
Remember, you're not entitled squat because contractually, during the work shift of your employment, the employer owns your time and labor for whatever reason they deem necessary not violating laws. This entitlement thinking is foolishness that will get you fired. There is no law let alone any right set forth under law where an employer has to respect you or your opinion. In the United States, the country where you have CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, those constitutional rights is no protection from being fired because you annoyed the employer. They can fire you because you annoyed him or her and it is totally legal and not a single court ever declared it as wrongful termination. Freedom of speech doesn't apply to work place per se. Employers can't fire you for necessarily saying something they disagree with without it being a wrongful termination but they can terminate you for talking and being disruptive during work time or annoying or otherwise. The Constitution and the protection of the rights set forth in 5th and 14th amendment only applies to the government (federal, state or local) adopting or enforcing laws that abridges or otherwise restricts or lessen your rights set forth in the U.S. Constitution. This doesn't apply to foreign citizens as their rights or privileges are a matter of other laws and jurisdiction.
Alot of young folks thinks these Constitutional rights extends into the work place without limitations. First off, we are talking private property and private ownership. A place of business is like a home. When you are an employee going entering a place of business, it is much like you going to someone else's home. It is not a democracy. You respect the rules of that person. When you come to my home, your rights ends at the public right of way. Once you are on my property, you are under my laws and rules. I neither have to respect your Constitutional rights because you are a guest. An employee is much like a guest but I have to respect the rights only to the application of law as written. In short, I can't fire you for saying something on a forum that I disagree with. That's just an opinion, I can fire you if I dislike you, find you annoying within the confines of law just as I can have you removed from my place of business as I can from my home. It is even more so in the state of Oregon where we are an Employment at will state.
From the perspective of employer as I technically have an EIN, so to put it mildly, employment is a privilege not a right. Employee rights are limited and there is no entitlement. Sure, there are certain things an employer may not do like racial, gender or other kinds of discrimination of protected classes. This does not mean employees have the right to talk about whatever he or she wants to if it causes disruption of workplace including failure to perform. In addition, refusing to do assigned tasks that is not illegal is grounds for termination lawfully. I generally don't care if you talk, your race, gender, or religious views. I genuinely don't give a sh-t. One thing I can tell you is if I assigned a task for you to perform and you refuse to that is not genuinely based on racial, religious, disability or otherwise under law, I am within right to terminate your employment and find someone else. There are lots of people out there that are willing to take your employment position.
Unless whistle-blower retaliation provisions of law genuinely apply, there isn't much of anything you can really do.
However, I'm not going to fire someone just because they disagree with me at least not initially. An employee needs to remember that employment itself is a privilege not a right. I don't owe a person employment. I reserve the right to assign any lawfully compliant task or assignment to any employee I hire. It is because that is what needs to be done.
Granted, I agree with the OP that the employer should have given more instruction and that is a duty of an employer but an employee may not nor should assume they have an entitled right because there isn't really employee rights on these matters. An employee should ask for clarification or more detailed instructions prior to performing a task and that is appropriate and in my opinion would be morally wrong of an employer to terminate employment for someone asking clarification of instructions to perform a task as that would be enabling him/her to perform the task assigned. If I were the employer, I would want my employees to get clarification prior to doing something.
If you come to me as saying "This is not my job" then you are not going to do yourself any favors.
Remember that when you go to work, there isn't any entitlement so don't assume you'll get anymore than the absolute minimum of law and you better downright be able to cite the very law and court ruling or a ruling/legal document from say an attorney general or equivalent legal official having jurisdiction in the paste or present where it is still applicable. Just because you believe something is the case does not mean it is the case.
The entitled employee rights are limited.
You have a choice, though. Is arguing with the boss worth risking termination and having to find a new job? Is the issue worth it?
Employers can always find new employees especially these days after the massive layoffs. There isn't any shortage of applicants.
As architects, we are prostitutes (for lack of a better term). Get used to it or f. off from the profession.
And I assure you, this is tame stuff. Wait till you have to go shopping for a client.
Feb 28, 15 10:00 pm ·
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This is why architecture profession is more or less getting worse. Now wouldn't architects want to see a brighter future... it would start by seeing a brighter self worth.
I am not saying employees are entitled to refuse to perform a task. Again, I'm saying, repeatedly, that we have to deal with this PROFESSIONALLY. People are hired for their talent and potential that can enable the company to be profitable. That means employees are obligated to perform their duty to prove they worth what they are paid. Granted, the OP is an intern, so she should do what she's told with proper instruction... and that's why I said earlier that it's her boss' fault for not giving her a proper instruction. What pisses me off is that some say she should be happy to have a job, or just do it (without any instruction) otherwise you will get fired. Everyone has a different skill set, and as a group (the company) should utilize their asset efficiently.
All I am saying is that people should be able to speak up and share ideas, if it can contribute the company as a whole. If boss asks CA specialist to lead SD phase in a new project, or senior lead designer to do door schedule, we should be able to say to the boss that that will be waste of money and risking the company. (I know you didn't mean that, Richard, but I justs want to clear it up).
If you think the business of architecture is about the mutual exchange of ideas on how to run a practice between low level employees/interns and management/owners, you are wrong.
This idea of "proper instruction" that you mention is a moving target and often times management does not know what they want until they see a draft to comment on, regardless of the task. Things rarely get done perfectly on the first pass, especially in architecture.
Every office is flawed, the key is finding a place that has flaws you can tolerate. The other alternative is to open your own practice, where you can be the dictator of said inefficiencies, then see how open you will be to the open flow of ideas from some 20 year old that doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground.
Mar 1, 15 12:52 am ·
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Exactly!
fulcrum, what do you have that someone with 20+ years of professional practice is going to need? You (rhetorically speaking so bear with me) haven't done a project on your own, ran your own business, had your own client... why would a principal of a firm care about your opinion on how to run a business. They been doing it for years if not decades in many cases. You really think they can't design a building on their own that they absolutely need your expert advice?
Think about it. The more experience you have, the more a principal of a firm is going to consider your input when you have been on your own, served clients and actually had some real experience in the not so perfect or ideal world that doesn't give a literal flying f--- about architectural theories and idealism one iota. Most clients don't even care about your opinion, they just want you for getting the permit to shut the building official up and get the building built. Literally.
They don't need fresh out of college kids for telling them about how to run a business. They hire them to do the grunt work and drudgery so they can spend more time on the things they want to do on projects and running the business. They don't want to sit in front of the CAD workstation drawing door knobs and door details for hours. They want to deal with the other stuff. Of course when you run a "firm" that is larger than say a sole-proprietorship and small firms, when you are a principal, you are less practicing architecture as an architect and spend more time operating as a business administrator/executive in meetings and dealing with those things. That is the usual reality. While project architects - mid-level staffs/associates or senior associates will be the lead designer working on the vision while drudgery is handed off to new staff... after all they were in your shoes and guess what, when they got promoted they aren't wanting to spend their time with all the drudgery. As the saying goes... shit rolls downhill. shit work and drudgery is passed down. That's called delegation. Take the best and pass the less desireable stuff to the lower level. Of course you have to manage the HSW matters.
I relate in some way as a building designer because the business of building design isn't all that different to the business of architecture even though demographically, more building designer businesses are typically smaller due to much more constrained environment... as in high competition... low price ceiling compared to commercial and that the projects are also much smaller. I would rather do one 100,000 sq.ft. commercial building than 10 average size houses of 2500-5500 sq.ft. That 100,000 sq.ft. commercial building would take less time (possibly half as much time) than the 10 houses and I would get twice as much money. I can effectively get sometimes up to 4x the $ per hour of time invested.
I'm sure our fellow architects and experienced project designers (whether licensed or not as architects) knows if they been down this road. Residential is not for the timid and you can bet your rear end, it isn't idealistic and rare are clients that will be let you have carte blanche designing. Respectfully my colleagues licensed and not can tell you that things aren't ideal and it never will be because that is the nature of the world and humanity.
No place of employment is perfect. You find a place where the flaws are acceptable or you form your own business. Either way, you'll find that things aren't ideal and you live with it. Being a boss also means, you may have to do things you don't like or entirely enjoy because it has to be done and you don't have the money to hire someone to do it for you all the time.
Welcome to the world of snares and toils and assholes and inefficiencies, frustration, hair pulling. The bright side is it isn't all bad or nightmare. It also has joys and positive things.
But you have to take the good with the bad. That's the only choice in life if you choose to live in this world. You always have a choice but the other option is six feet under. That's a reality everywhere in every occupation for everyone.
Mar 1, 15 1:57 am ·
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Remember this, if you are going to be an architect, you need to be well rounded because when you start your own firm, its a good chance you will have a time in your life where you have to do everything on your own.
Sometimes a CA specialist has to do other things in order to not be 'lame'. People have to have a diversity of experience.
Sometimes that is intentional so that you have experience doing something else. Does it always make best use of human resources... not always but you can't become an architect - especially in the U.S. by being strictly a CA specialist or a CAD technician, or doing strictly door or window details. Sometimes, you need to have non-architectural experiences like other office skills including transcribing. It happens but take it as life experience because guess what, you can't always get architecture jobs so these other skills are transferrable. Of course, this will probably become obsolete as tools like Dragon could be expanded upon to take multiple inputs through multiple mics with each individual and transcribe through multi-voice voice to text recognition with each mic input linked to each person.
I own my own tiny firm. I do all sorts of bull$hit tasks in order to complete my projects. One of these is jumping through hoops that cities put up. If I hired an employee to help with my work I'd expect them to do some of these tasks without complaint because it's part if what we do as architects. If the employee started complaining about it I'd find a different employee who was more aware of what it means to be an architect. I would also explain to an intern why we do these things and why it's important and why it's a learning experience.
I think that sums it up....but hey, you want a cushy salary or public position with a relatively low salary for most your career - keep expecting things you haven't earned.
When I got out of school I annoyed all my employers because all I did was grill them on each decision they made. Basically fired once, in trouble a few times...but in very short period (3 years) was writing proposals and running jobs.
What I quickly learned is exactly what Gruen said....even though I read ENR weekly and studied all the project management guides etc.., you find bull$hit has to be done to keep doing what you really want, everything else as far as how 'it should be' is highly theoretical and academic.
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@OP in a recent Blog post of mine I transcribed Bucky Fuller at University of Detroit School of Architecture. It was about a 4 minute video. I spent a good hour or two listening to it over and over. I have read lots of Fuller, but I don't think I ever understood him the same way.
I'm hoping OP you learned something from listening to a proceeding over and over, this may have been something your boss was hoping for and as someone noted before 'maybe' you recorded all the wrong points, or at least points that help the architect over the public official and hence they asked for the entire thing. Presumably now you could also run a meeting like this better now that you'd played one over and over in your head. and maybe when you get to the position of your boss you will understand whether it's a waste to have the person fresh out of school do this task or not.
the empoloyer-employee relationship is a relationship where neither party takes away the free will of the other party. studior and everyone else posting here have the right to direct their own professional development however they see fit.
becoming an employer does not all of a sudden make a person competent. we've seen even in these forums statements to the effect of 'if you don't like it start your own business.' this lame celebration of ownership as a path towards freedom might be part of the reason that the wrong people become firm owners. working for a living should be a viable option, rather than a path towards (in)voluntary servitude.
if a person is working for incompetent owners or management, they're probably not going to be keeping their jobs long anyway. it seems a lot of people in our profession don't keep their jobs too long, and as has been stated a few times before, it's quite possible the only way to get a promotion is to quit and start anew somewhere else. employers can threaten to fire their interns for stepping out of their place, but the intern is probably going to lose their job before long anyway. if the best your employers can do is threaten you, how good of an office do you think they're running?
in the OP's case, she found a creative solution to delegate portions of the task to consultants, and she worked with her employer to implement that plan. the 'employers' on this thread just say 'do what your told minion.' her employers empowered her to make decisions that benefit the project and her company. the employers here would punish creativity, responsibility, initiative, and the ability to get shit done. this is a clear example of why 'millenials are entitiled' isn't the problem. it's more likely the problem is that stupid people can't recognize that they're stupid.
Its a mistake to assume that the OP's suituation is equivalent to the US. There are vast cultural differences between here and Korea.
Mar 1, 15 11:02 am ·
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curtkram,
However, in the case of the OP, yes but remember this, when you outsource a task, that is money you don't get and in this world economy as it relates to architecture, you are doing whatever is going to pay the bills.
You are right in that just because you start a business doesn't make you competent. The OP has a solution but lets remember this, the economy is not going to support fulltime practice of architecture in many places. Therefore businessess needs to offer more than just architectural services.
@ chigurh : if you are calling me "son," then you must be pushing 80's.
@ gruen : I'll expect same thing from my employees when I give them a task, but I do always explain to them WHY and HOW we do it as architects, so they will not complain.
@ Richard : we will have to educate someone AND be educated by someone else, all the time! inspiration and ideas come from anyone and anything. Sure, 8, 9 out of 10, interns and/or inexperienced people won't be able to offer something new or beneficial for the company, but I am willing to give my time to get that one.
Nobody is right or wrong... It's just different philosophies and views. Good luck, everyone.
richard, seems to me there is a fair chance they did not charge additional services to transcribe a meeting. maybe if the entire project was based on a time and expense contract, which is possible, then that would be more likely. hopefully architectural staff has a higher billable rate than a temp secretary service. if that's the case, then it could be seen that the architecture firm is artificially inflating it's fees by charging an architect's rate for a secretary's service. that could be more of a bad thing than a good thing.
Architecture is more than "facade recommendations" - suck it up and do the job. its a learning experience
Mar 1, 15 1:15 pm ·
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curtkram,
Whether or not the employer is charging money for that it is none of a non-equity stakeholder/employee's business. It isn't an intern's business and I can safely say - no architect employers with experience places a fresh out of architecture school intern in a position or roles or duty close to the inner workings of the business end of firm unless that person has had a career in business management/administration, accounting or otherwise for a number of years prior to changing careers into architecture. That is rare however you look at it.
It could be just that the normal person that the city has for transcribing (ie. clerk) was already taken up for some other meeting and was unavailable or whatever reason was unavailable and back up ones normally called upon is also unavailable that very day and time so it was agreed upon by the architectural principals to record and transcribe the meeting. Sh-t happens. As a building designer, I would have probably done the same thing if there were such a circumstance.
It would be billed as an additional service. The reason for doing so is another matter altogether.
That wouldn't happen often but I would want to be prepared for having to do that.
However, unless you have equity stake in the firm, as an employee, it is none of your business and you have no right to say or speak on the matters with your employer.
People need to learn that employment is not a democracy. It never has and never will be and no employer wants the opinion of a nobody with nothing to offer telling them how they should run their business.
Mar 1, 15 4:06 pm ·
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fulcrum,
"@ Richard : we will have to educate someone AND be educated by someone else, all the time! inspiration and ideas come from anyone and anything. Sure, 8, 9 out of 10, interns and/or inexperienced people won't be able to offer something new or beneficial for the company, but I am willing to give my time to get that one.
Nobody is right or wrong... It's just different philosophies and views. Good luck, everyone."
Those of us with experience, in general, aren't educated by 'greenhorn' interns. We learn from our peers who are in the same boat of running a business like an architectural firm or from those before us.
I agree that we should aspire to be professional and establish an atmosphere where we have dialogue. As for teaching or training our employees, I agree that we should try to improve their knowledge and skills through our supervision, direction, mentorship, etc.
To the original question I have to say—yes, this is normal.
To the unspoken question, I would have to say that it is a mistake to look at this as being beneath you or not appropriate for your job in some way, even if you think there's a better way to do it.
We all have to do things which are not strictly in our job descriptions. From the head of the firm down to the greenest intern, there are always unpleasant tasks that keep things going in the studio. Project managers send out meeting minutes on a regular basis, so if you think about it that way being tasked with this is actually a step up in the world for you. Even aside from that, you show your value better to do what is asked of you but then make suggestions for how to do it better, rather than stamping your foot like a small child and demanding that your time not be wasted on such tasks. What I would do is look into a transcription service, find out what their rates are and show them to your boss saying something like "hey, that whole thing with the meeting minutes made me think there had to be a better way, and it turns out there is. Maybe next time we can try out one of these services? The cost would be equal to about # hours of my time, so it would be more efficient as far as the project budget goes."
i was away for family gathering and just got back. never knew my post has this many comments.
thank you all for the words. Many of them are, to me, good to know, fulfilling to read.and i assume many(everyone?) of you are from states. But before i write more, i would first like to know more about relationship btw government officials and architects in other countries and how architects are generally treated. (and i already smell some negative answers. ........... ? )
i just can't really like how the officials are throwing away tasks to us like to the slaves. like it is fair stuff. as it is granted. ( too many of my korean senior friends(6 -20+ yrs older) said it's too much,the way that officals treat people like us, architects)
i know i'm lucky that my boss is a nice guy who can listen to my complaints(which i wouldn't have if i was able to understand fully on why and how i should do the transcript).
ya, transcription was boring n tedious but, indeed, did learn a lot like all other works that i have done at the office. i just want to see the bigger picture, architects and other groups of people.
i read all the comments but can't say i understand everything and i guess its possible that someone could have already answered to this question that i just put.
many of you said like i am complaining about something that i anyway have to do and there's a problem with my attitude. (as long as i'm employed, paid, i should be doing what is being told) but as i have already written, i have never had this cynical attitude to any work/labor that my boss had thrown me. at least i wish i could understand(puh, remember some of you mentioned about the door schedule, i did enjoy doing them w/o any of these thoughts - -)
gee are you gonna say, go kid do the jobs whatever that is and get paid or leave the company. or say it's a custom to follow.
i see it more to be owner and slave relationship, officials and architects.
--architects are professional, they are paid for their work. like all other careers in the world.
I don't think it's a question of the relationship between architects and government officials, but rather architects and clients. I don't currently have any government clients and I still get asked for nonsense like this all the time, and yes the clients act like they're entitled to it. For better or worse we are a service industry and it's very difficult to tell clients that this type of service is ok and this type is not—often it's just better to make it happen to keep everything going smoothly.
thought it would be better situation in other countries presumably in u.s. but your answer explains alot i guess. thank you Mr.Williams. guess its best to shut up till i grow up to give that damn clients awesome suggestion so that we could at least keep our head up....... fantasy grown from school seems shameful..ahahhaa
Mar 2, 15 7:31 pm ·
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That is one of the problems architecture schooling tends to have. It sows seeds of idealism and promotes that image which can be problematic when people get out of architecture school.
That results alot from ivory tower disconnected from the practicing world because alot of professors don't practice because being a professor is often a full-time job for many full-time professors so they don't exactly know or experience professional practice as it is.
agree. but still i believe the way we are treated(in general) or tasks we are upto should be changed. im not talking about tedious archi labors like door schedules, tiny little changes in numerous drawings, collecting numbers for areal measurements,submitting this and that forms/presentation, thousands of plotting and making into book, calling all the cooperatives and keeping up altogether, keeping minutes and im not blaming my boss for transcription. i just can't really bear the fact that the officials are tossing technically their homework to us. the transcription was for their keeping and it's the official's job to give report to his boss. if transcription is company's way to record the meeting and if it has always been like that, i wouldn't mind. the project is underway and everybody involved is paid for their work. no party is prior to the others and we should all respect others. but then economy comes in and ideal relationship fails. i guess one of the only way to get things better is to give them f**** good design that only we can do. nah ha ya seems to me that designing will be so much of fun if it's only finished on paper, if it becomes my hobby not my job that affects the standard of living.
There's a fine line between recording a minutes of meeting, and taking a detailed record of every single word uttered in a 1.5 hour conversation between multiple people.
While I do believe people new in the field should suck it up and learn to deal with some of the "non-architecture" business matters, this case seems like pure bullshit that should be left to a professional.
If the boss thinks it's important, who are you to decide they are wrong?
It's work that needs to be done. Maybe it's normal, maybe it's a special case. Honestly, for whatever reason, it needs to be done.
The entitlement in this thread is knee deep.
Having been an entitled brat please learn from my mistakes - try to see the big picture and do what's necessary to complete the project, even if it feels beneath you. Because, honestly, your boss probably does things "beneath him" (or her) many times a day too.
i know my decision won't change anything for now and know that i have no permission for such but i personally see this happening to be (like a.i. said) pure bullshit. hoping it to never occur again in the future( what a dream lol ). i wondered if i understood the word 'entitlement' correctly so i checked the oxford dic. and i don't think we even had to bring out that word 'entitlement' (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/entitlement)
think it's just the duty of people involved in the project.
Atchitects love bending over and acting like martyrs. Yes, as a junior, you generally have to suck it up and do it, but my argument is that this attitude is exactly why most architects are terrible business people. We complain about scope creep non-stop, but the next time a client asks us to do extra work for free, we bend over with a smile on our face because we think we have to. We don't.
(This isn't specific to the original poster, just a general observation....)
i wonder what it takes to become a good business people but also can't think doing nonsense jobs for free is also a good way to make money.
Mar 3, 15 11:18 pm ·
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When it is your firm and your practice and you're the boss.. you run it however you damn well feel. As long as it is not and therefore your boss's business, it is ran however your boss feels like running it. Remember that. It is the business owners with equity stake that dictates how things are done and ran not the person who has no financial interest/investment into the firm. Right now, as it seems, your only investment is your time from which you are compensated by salary or wage. Until it is your money and your assets on the line invested into the business, you have no legal say in the matter and it is none of your business so stay out of the way of running this firm until you have equity (ie. ownership) stake in the firm and therefore a legal stake holder. Otherwise, you may end up getting fired which does not look good and raises concerns by prospective employers when they see such a thing in your resume.
Actually, I take it all back StudioR; you should do everything the boss says and kiss as much ass as you can to protect your resume's reputation. If the boss wants to make you his little secretary minion, then you damn well should know your place you entitled little 21st century brat.
is this normal stuff to happen in architecture firms.
hi all..i'm a female, korean, staff at an archi firm in Seoul.
i spent around a year in this firm right after i graduated from school (all in seoul)
a year with this firm was okay, not bad and the work was also acceptable. people were nice enough to work together with. but the thing is i wonder some experience is only happening here or only in korea.
there was one occasion that i think is not acceptable. current project that im participating is a public museum. the korean government placed an order. by now there had been lots of meetings and presentations especially with the town hall officials. lots and lots of (boring) submission (which i sometimes feel as.. waste of paper....) (puhaha, time for preparing documents is wayyyyy longer than designing anything) . things were really boring sometimes but i wasn't really being dissatisfied. i was bored but that was what had to be done. but one day, there was a very important official meeting with the people related to this project. public officials who gave the work joined, one or two important people from all cooperative companies(civil,structural,mechanical,electric and etc.) and people from deliberative body(i wonder if this word is being used correctly) joined as well.
after that important meeting, my boss tossed me a mp3 file which was recorded when the meeting was happening and asked me to take the minutes and send the file also to the public officials without any instructions on how. there is a company's way and form to keep the minutes that i have been told before and i have always followed that whenever i had to take. and since that meeting is very important, we do have good reasons to make the record for ourselves and it's possible to give that record to anyone related .
it took me long hours to finish the minutes(jesus really i had to listen to that 90min mp3 file for 3 times because many pple were speaking korean dialect and if they are talking about engineering part it becomes harder) of course i wrote the essence of what pple said. only the key words. so it was a summary i should say and that's how we took the minutes. the boss was away when i was done and i told him that i'm done and about to send this to the public official. it was late in the evening.
next day, i was on my way to the office and it was even before the working hour. i got a direct phone call from the pub. official. i was thinking.. 'what the..;(..'
what he said was, this is a summary not a record. for a record, you should have written all the words(literally all the words) i wish you could do this again and give me a call when u finish sending it to me.
literally all the words..writing any words or sound(some words were so hard to get that i feel them to be just sound, not language..-_-)
Hell, f***. i had to make suggestions for facade design that day.
Another long talk with my boss and he said the offical who called me have to give another report to His boss and that included (their way of) minutes.
i was very upset, really.
why should we do the homework of that officials???? is such thing included in the contract???? we are designers not a clerk. if he needed such minutes, he should have asked his people or if there isn't anyone for such they should have hired the clerks. shouldn't they?
my boss have said that's what happens, that is normal, that's custom in korea.
several weeks have passed but still feeling bad about it.
i wonder if im being so naive, having so much fantasy about working at a archi firm. i wonder if that's the case in other countries ..
after that i feel like never being the part of this korean archi society.. certainly i like designing and i love architecture but works from architecture firms aren't always very acceptable for me. tedious archi labor, giving meaningless suggestions for showing and etc.. all were acceptable but this occasion...
i want to hear how you think toward this happening.
haha. wanna know how it ended? i suggested to my boss to give that stupid assignment to all the cooperative companies so that they would write all the words when the meeting talks about their part. he said yes so i called all the cooperatives and collected their word files, copied and pasted. (but the architectural designing/planning/constructions were ours and it was the longest haah) listened to the mp3 file several times again to make the document complete.
puh, didnt need fancy archi education to work at this company. could have done even after high school. ahahaha
geee.. so long the words.. thank you anyone beforehand for finish reading my messy words..
The correct answer to the public official: "We are not transcribers, we are architects. If you'd like, we can subcontract out a transcriber and send the bill over. What do you think?"
It's a government official; government bills rarely go unpaid; stop enabling inefficiency
i spent around a year in this firm right after i graduated from school (all in seoul)
why should we do the homework of that officials???? is such thing included in the contract???? we are designers not a clerk. if he needed such minutes, he should have asked his people or if there isn't anyone for such they should have hired the clerks. shouldn't they?
my boss have said that's what happens, that is normal, that's custom in korea.
Yeah, if you have other work to be doing i don't know why you wouldn't just farm that out to a professional transcriber. It would be easier and probably cheaper, though if you needed it asap it might not be faster unless you had contacts and priority with someone.
I'd give my boss some looks if they asked me to do a transcription like that. I'd probably do it though.
Everyone does stuff they dont like, especially the first few years. Life doesnt get any easier, best to learn how to deal with it and keep negative thoughts to yourself
"my boss have said that's what happens, that is normal, that's custom in korea."
don't you just hate that? "it is what it is, so just take it." F that.
Learning is one thing, and keeping some fucked up custom is a whole different matter.
ANYWAY, to me, it was your boss' fault for not giving you a proper instruction... but it sounded like your boss is a reasonable person to deal with. I am going thru a series of community meetings for the project here in the States, and the city clerk has been the one who does all that "word for word" transcript.
just be glad you have a job and quit whining.
like others said, architecture is filled with non-architecture tasks...that is just what it takes to get a job done. go do it: go to your boss with an attitude like that and you are going to get fired, especially if they have already taken it upon the firm to complete the task, it is not the place of some intern to point out where a specific task is not the responsibility of the firm just because they are too lazy or whiny to do it.
Architecture: 1% design 99% clerical bullshit.
"Architecture: 1% design 99% clerical bullshit."
Seriously?
First off, there is no license requirement for transcribing therefore, if the firm (ie. your employer) offers the services of transcribing, then it is your boss's decision. Then your boss makes the decision of who among his/her staff is going to be tasked to do the job.
In short, when you are employed, you have only one real title.... employee which means "hired person to do whatever task your employer directs you to do." You are not an architect until it is your name and stamp on the drawing and you have the contract. Everyone else employed is employed staff to do whatever they are directed to do.
After all, you can't say necessarily that it is not in your job description because just about every employer everywhere includes a clause to the the effect of (when describing your job duties) - " - whatever else your supervisor assigns to you."
yes.
Ha, I should send a box of chocolate to my boss, then.
I can't say exactly of the rights or freedoms of people in other countries but in the U.S. at least, if the boss hands you money and directs you to go to the store to pick up a box of chocolate then you have to do it. However, a boss can not legally require you to pay for it out of your money and it would be wrongful termination if you were fired for not agreeing to do so and your money is your right as it is your possession which is grounded as a fundamental right protected by the Constitution among other laws.
In other countries, I can't say about the protection of personal property and personal property rights and so forth which includes cash.
In this case, if you wish to send a box of chocolate to your boss, be mindful that you are doing so out of personal choice.
Look, I understand what you guys are saying, so don't get me wrong here. As a professional, you have to be responsible for the task you are AGREED to complete. However, you have a right to voice your opinion professionally. AND, your employers also have to be professional AND respect their employees, hoping they do their homework when they hire their employees.
Everything is personal choice, whether you want to bend over, or say no and go find a better place to work.
Well, on the up side you are clearly the front runner for the Sense of Entitlement award given annually to the most deserving millennial.
i'm pretty sure you're as much of a free person in korea as we are in america. which means you have a choice. which means you always have a choice.
if you feel strongly enough that transcribing is something you cannot or should not do, be it on a professional or moral level, then don't do it. tell your boss and let them know why. just be aware that there are consequences to that decision. there are probably consequences to agreeing to transcribe other people's meetings as well.
it has nothing to do with any constitutions. your employer doesn't own you. make your own decisions. just try to be smart about it.
if someone says you're just too 'entitled' because your a millennial, i give you my permission to tell them to fuck off. those people are never going to help you achieve anything in your life anyway.
A 1 year intern refusing to transcribe meeting notes on moral grounds? Are you serious?
After re-reading her post I get the idea that maybe her interpretation of the meeting missed some salient points and they asked her for a complete transcript for that reason.
If you think enabling her bullshit attitude is going to help her, I do not know what to tell you. What do you think her response is going to be when she is asked to do a door schedule?
"I am a DESIGNER and they asked me to count beans?!"
fulcrum,
Remember, you're not entitled squat because contractually, during the work shift of your employment, the employer owns your time and labor for whatever reason they deem necessary not violating laws. This entitlement thinking is foolishness that will get you fired. There is no law let alone any right set forth under law where an employer has to respect you or your opinion. In the United States, the country where you have CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, those constitutional rights is no protection from being fired because you annoyed the employer. They can fire you because you annoyed him or her and it is totally legal and not a single court ever declared it as wrongful termination. Freedom of speech doesn't apply to work place per se. Employers can't fire you for necessarily saying something they disagree with without it being a wrongful termination but they can terminate you for talking and being disruptive during work time or annoying or otherwise. The Constitution and the protection of the rights set forth in 5th and 14th amendment only applies to the government (federal, state or local) adopting or enforcing laws that abridges or otherwise restricts or lessen your rights set forth in the U.S. Constitution. This doesn't apply to foreign citizens as their rights or privileges are a matter of other laws and jurisdiction.
Alot of young folks thinks these Constitutional rights extends into the work place without limitations. First off, we are talking private property and private ownership. A place of business is like a home. When you are an employee going entering a place of business, it is much like you going to someone else's home. It is not a democracy. You respect the rules of that person. When you come to my home, your rights ends at the public right of way. Once you are on my property, you are under my laws and rules. I neither have to respect your Constitutional rights because you are a guest. An employee is much like a guest but I have to respect the rights only to the application of law as written. In short, I can't fire you for saying something on a forum that I disagree with. That's just an opinion, I can fire you if I dislike you, find you annoying within the confines of law just as I can have you removed from my place of business as I can from my home. It is even more so in the state of Oregon where we are an Employment at will state.
From the perspective of employer as I technically have an EIN, so to put it mildly, employment is a privilege not a right. Employee rights are limited and there is no entitlement. Sure, there are certain things an employer may not do like racial, gender or other kinds of discrimination of protected classes. This does not mean employees have the right to talk about whatever he or she wants to if it causes disruption of workplace including failure to perform. In addition, refusing to do assigned tasks that is not illegal is grounds for termination lawfully. I generally don't care if you talk, your race, gender, or religious views. I genuinely don't give a sh-t. One thing I can tell you is if I assigned a task for you to perform and you refuse to that is not genuinely based on racial, religious, disability or otherwise under law, I am within right to terminate your employment and find someone else. There are lots of people out there that are willing to take your employment position.
Unless whistle-blower retaliation provisions of law genuinely apply, there isn't much of anything you can really do.
However, I'm not going to fire someone just because they disagree with me at least not initially. An employee needs to remember that employment itself is a privilege not a right. I don't owe a person employment. I reserve the right to assign any lawfully compliant task or assignment to any employee I hire. It is because that is what needs to be done.
Granted, I agree with the OP that the employer should have given more instruction and that is a duty of an employer but an employee may not nor should assume they have an entitled right because there isn't really employee rights on these matters. An employee should ask for clarification or more detailed instructions prior to performing a task and that is appropriate and in my opinion would be morally wrong of an employer to terminate employment for someone asking clarification of instructions to perform a task as that would be enabling him/her to perform the task assigned. If I were the employer, I would want my employees to get clarification prior to doing something.
If you come to me as saying "This is not my job" then you are not going to do yourself any favors.
Remember that when you go to work, there isn't any entitlement so don't assume you'll get anymore than the absolute minimum of law and you better downright be able to cite the very law and court ruling or a ruling/legal document from say an attorney general or equivalent legal official having jurisdiction in the paste or present where it is still applicable. Just because you believe something is the case does not mean it is the case.
The entitled employee rights are limited.
You have a choice, though. Is arguing with the boss worth risking termination and having to find a new job? Is the issue worth it?
Employers can always find new employees especially these days after the massive layoffs. There isn't any shortage of applicants.
As architects, we are prostitutes (for lack of a better term). Get used to it or f. off from the profession.
And I assure you, this is tame stuff. Wait till you have to go shopping for a client.
This is why architecture profession is more or less getting worse. Now wouldn't architects want to see a brighter future... it would start by seeing a brighter self worth.
Richard
I am not saying employees are entitled to refuse to perform a task. Again, I'm saying, repeatedly, that we have to deal with this PROFESSIONALLY. People are hired for their talent and potential that can enable the company to be profitable. That means employees are obligated to perform their duty to prove they worth what they are paid. Granted, the OP is an intern, so she should do what she's told with proper instruction... and that's why I said earlier that it's her boss' fault for not giving her a proper instruction. What pisses me off is that some say she should be happy to have a job, or just do it (without any instruction) otherwise you will get fired. Everyone has a different skill set, and as a group (the company) should utilize their asset efficiently.
All I am saying is that people should be able to speak up and share ideas, if it can contribute the company as a whole. If boss asks CA specialist to lead SD phase in a new project, or senior lead designer to do door schedule, we should be able to say to the boss that that will be waste of money and risking the company. (I know you didn't mean that, Richard, but I justs want to clear it up).
so idealistic...give it a few years son.
If you think the business of architecture is about the mutual exchange of ideas on how to run a practice between low level employees/interns and management/owners, you are wrong.
This idea of "proper instruction" that you mention is a moving target and often times management does not know what they want until they see a draft to comment on, regardless of the task. Things rarely get done perfectly on the first pass, especially in architecture.
Every office is flawed, the key is finding a place that has flaws you can tolerate. The other alternative is to open your own practice, where you can be the dictator of said inefficiencies, then see how open you will be to the open flow of ideas from some 20 year old that doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground.
Exactly!
fulcrum, what do you have that someone with 20+ years of professional practice is going to need? You (rhetorically speaking so bear with me) haven't done a project on your own, ran your own business, had your own client... why would a principal of a firm care about your opinion on how to run a business. They been doing it for years if not decades in many cases. You really think they can't design a building on their own that they absolutely need your expert advice?
Think about it. The more experience you have, the more a principal of a firm is going to consider your input when you have been on your own, served clients and actually had some real experience in the not so perfect or ideal world that doesn't give a literal flying f--- about architectural theories and idealism one iota. Most clients don't even care about your opinion, they just want you for getting the permit to shut the building official up and get the building built. Literally.
They don't need fresh out of college kids for telling them about how to run a business. They hire them to do the grunt work and drudgery so they can spend more time on the things they want to do on projects and running the business. They don't want to sit in front of the CAD workstation drawing door knobs and door details for hours. They want to deal with the other stuff. Of course when you run a "firm" that is larger than say a sole-proprietorship and small firms, when you are a principal, you are less practicing architecture as an architect and spend more time operating as a business administrator/executive in meetings and dealing with those things. That is the usual reality. While project architects - mid-level staffs/associates or senior associates will be the lead designer working on the vision while drudgery is handed off to new staff... after all they were in your shoes and guess what, when they got promoted they aren't wanting to spend their time with all the drudgery. As the saying goes... shit rolls downhill. shit work and drudgery is passed down. That's called delegation. Take the best and pass the less desireable stuff to the lower level. Of course you have to manage the HSW matters.
I relate in some way as a building designer because the business of building design isn't all that different to the business of architecture even though demographically, more building designer businesses are typically smaller due to much more constrained environment... as in high competition... low price ceiling compared to commercial and that the projects are also much smaller. I would rather do one 100,000 sq.ft. commercial building than 10 average size houses of 2500-5500 sq.ft. That 100,000 sq.ft. commercial building would take less time (possibly half as much time) than the 10 houses and I would get twice as much money. I can effectively get sometimes up to 4x the $ per hour of time invested.
I'm sure our fellow architects and experienced project designers (whether licensed or not as architects) knows if they been down this road. Residential is not for the timid and you can bet your rear end, it isn't idealistic and rare are clients that will be let you have carte blanche designing. Respectfully my colleagues licensed and not can tell you that things aren't ideal and it never will be because that is the nature of the world and humanity.
No place of employment is perfect. You find a place where the flaws are acceptable or you form your own business. Either way, you'll find that things aren't ideal and you live with it. Being a boss also means, you may have to do things you don't like or entirely enjoy because it has to be done and you don't have the money to hire someone to do it for you all the time.
Welcome to the world of snares and toils and assholes and inefficiencies, frustration, hair pulling. The bright side is it isn't all bad or nightmare. It also has joys and positive things.
But you have to take the good with the bad. That's the only choice in life if you choose to live in this world. You always have a choice but the other option is six feet under. That's a reality everywhere in every occupation for everyone.
Remember this, if you are going to be an architect, you need to be well rounded because when you start your own firm, its a good chance you will have a time in your life where you have to do everything on your own.
Sometimes a CA specialist has to do other things in order to not be 'lame'. People have to have a diversity of experience.
Sometimes that is intentional so that you have experience doing something else. Does it always make best use of human resources... not always but you can't become an architect - especially in the U.S. by being strictly a CA specialist or a CAD technician, or doing strictly door or window details. Sometimes, you need to have non-architectural experiences like other office skills including transcribing. It happens but take it as life experience because guess what, you can't always get architecture jobs so these other skills are transferrable. Of course, this will probably become obsolete as tools like Dragon could be expanded upon to take multiple inputs through multiple mics with each individual and transcribe through multi-voice voice to text recognition with each mic input linked to each person.
+gruen
I think that sums it up....but hey, you want a cushy salary or public position with a relatively low salary for most your career - keep expecting things you haven't earned.
When I got out of school I annoyed all my employers because all I did was grill them on each decision they made. Basically fired once, in trouble a few times...but in very short period (3 years) was writing proposals and running jobs.
What I quickly learned is exactly what Gruen said....even though I read ENR weekly and studied all the project management guides etc.., you find bull$hit has to be done to keep doing what you really want, everything else as far as how 'it should be' is highly theoretical and academic.
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@OP in a recent Blog post of mine I transcribed Bucky Fuller at University of Detroit School of Architecture. It was about a 4 minute video. I spent a good hour or two listening to it over and over. I have read lots of Fuller, but I don't think I ever understood him the same way.
I'm hoping OP you learned something from listening to a proceeding over and over, this may have been something your boss was hoping for and as someone noted before 'maybe' you recorded all the wrong points, or at least points that help the architect over the public official and hence they asked for the entire thing. Presumably now you could also run a meeting like this better now that you'd played one over and over in your head. and maybe when you get to the position of your boss you will understand whether it's a waste to have the person fresh out of school do this task or not.
the empoloyer-employee relationship is a relationship where neither party takes away the free will of the other party. studior and everyone else posting here have the right to direct their own professional development however they see fit.
becoming an employer does not all of a sudden make a person competent. we've seen even in these forums statements to the effect of 'if you don't like it start your own business.' this lame celebration of ownership as a path towards freedom might be part of the reason that the wrong people become firm owners. working for a living should be a viable option, rather than a path towards (in)voluntary servitude.
if a person is working for incompetent owners or management, they're probably not going to be keeping their jobs long anyway. it seems a lot of people in our profession don't keep their jobs too long, and as has been stated a few times before, it's quite possible the only way to get a promotion is to quit and start anew somewhere else. employers can threaten to fire their interns for stepping out of their place, but the intern is probably going to lose their job before long anyway. if the best your employers can do is threaten you, how good of an office do you think they're running?
in the OP's case, she found a creative solution to delegate portions of the task to consultants, and she worked with her employer to implement that plan. the 'employers' on this thread just say 'do what your told minion.' her employers empowered her to make decisions that benefit the project and her company. the employers here would punish creativity, responsibility, initiative, and the ability to get shit done. this is a clear example of why 'millenials are entitiled' isn't the problem. it's more likely the problem is that stupid people can't recognize that they're stupid.
Its a mistake to assume that the OP's suituation is equivalent to the US. There are vast cultural differences between here and Korea.
curtkram,
However, in the case of the OP, yes but remember this, when you outsource a task, that is money you don't get and in this world economy as it relates to architecture, you are doing whatever is going to pay the bills.
You are right in that just because you start a business doesn't make you competent. The OP has a solution but lets remember this, the economy is not going to support fulltime practice of architecture in many places. Therefore businessess needs to offer more than just architectural services.
Thank you, curtkram!
@ chigurh : if you are calling me "son," then you must be pushing 80's.
@ gruen : I'll expect same thing from my employees when I give them a task, but I do always explain to them WHY and HOW we do it as architects, so they will not complain.
@ Richard : we will have to educate someone AND be educated by someone else, all the time! inspiration and ideas come from anyone and anything. Sure, 8, 9 out of 10, interns and/or inexperienced people won't be able to offer something new or beneficial for the company, but I am willing to give my time to get that one.
Nobody is right or wrong... It's just different philosophies and views. Good luck, everyone.
richard, seems to me there is a fair chance they did not charge additional services to transcribe a meeting. maybe if the entire project was based on a time and expense contract, which is possible, then that would be more likely. hopefully architectural staff has a higher billable rate than a temp secretary service. if that's the case, then it could be seen that the architecture firm is artificially inflating it's fees by charging an architect's rate for a secretary's service. that could be more of a bad thing than a good thing.
Architecture is more than "facade recommendations" - suck it up and do the job. its a learning experience
curtkram,
Whether or not the employer is charging money for that it is none of a non-equity stakeholder/employee's business. It isn't an intern's business and I can safely say - no architect employers with experience places a fresh out of architecture school intern in a position or roles or duty close to the inner workings of the business end of firm unless that person has had a career in business management/administration, accounting or otherwise for a number of years prior to changing careers into architecture. That is rare however you look at it.
It could be just that the normal person that the city has for transcribing (ie. clerk) was already taken up for some other meeting and was unavailable or whatever reason was unavailable and back up ones normally called upon is also unavailable that very day and time so it was agreed upon by the architectural principals to record and transcribe the meeting. Sh-t happens. As a building designer, I would have probably done the same thing if there were such a circumstance.
It would be billed as an additional service. The reason for doing so is another matter altogether.
That wouldn't happen often but I would want to be prepared for having to do that.
However, unless you have equity stake in the firm, as an employee, it is none of your business and you have no right to say or speak on the matters with your employer.
People need to learn that employment is not a democracy. It never has and never will be and no employer wants the opinion of a nobody with nothing to offer telling them how they should run their business.
fulcrum,
"@ Richard : we will have to educate someone AND be educated by someone else, all the time! inspiration and ideas come from anyone and anything. Sure, 8, 9 out of 10, interns and/or inexperienced people won't be able to offer something new or beneficial for the company, but I am willing to give my time to get that one.
Nobody is right or wrong... It's just different philosophies and views. Good luck, everyone."
Those of us with experience, in general, aren't educated by 'greenhorn' interns. We learn from our peers who are in the same boat of running a business like an architectural firm or from those before us.
I agree that we should aspire to be professional and establish an atmosphere where we have dialogue. As for teaching or training our employees, I agree that we should try to improve their knowledge and skills through our supervision, direction, mentorship, etc.
employment is not a democracy, it's a voluntary association.
yes. In which each party can voluntarily choose to disassociate or terminate such association.
To the original question I have to say—yes, this is normal.
To the unspoken question, I would have to say that it is a mistake to look at this as being beneath you or not appropriate for your job in some way, even if you think there's a better way to do it.
We all have to do things which are not strictly in our job descriptions. From the head of the firm down to the greenest intern, there are always unpleasant tasks that keep things going in the studio. Project managers send out meeting minutes on a regular basis, so if you think about it that way being tasked with this is actually a step up in the world for you. Even aside from that, you show your value better to do what is asked of you but then make suggestions for how to do it better, rather than stamping your foot like a small child and demanding that your time not be wasted on such tasks. What I would do is look into a transcription service, find out what their rates are and show them to your boss saying something like "hey, that whole thing with the meeting minutes made me think there had to be a better way, and it turns out there is. Maybe next time we can try out one of these services? The cost would be equal to about # hours of my time, so it would be more efficient as far as the project budget goes."
oh, and if you look at the cost and it's not more efficient to use a service? Then you've got your answer as to why you were asked to do this.
i was away for family gathering and just got back. never knew my post has this many comments.
thank you all for the words. Many of them are, to me, good to know, fulfilling to read.and i assume many(everyone?) of you are from states. But before i write more, i would first like to know more about relationship btw government officials and architects in other countries and how architects are generally treated. (and i already smell some negative answers. ........... ? )
i just can't really like how the officials are throwing away tasks to us like to the slaves. like it is fair stuff. as it is granted. ( too many of my korean senior friends(6 -20+ yrs older) said it's too much,the way that officals treat people like us, architects)
i know i'm lucky that my boss is a nice guy who can listen to my complaints(which i wouldn't have if i was able to understand fully on why and how i should do the transcript).
ya, transcription was boring n tedious but, indeed, did learn a lot like all other works that i have done at the office. i just want to see the bigger picture, architects and other groups of people.
i read all the comments but can't say i understand everything and i guess its possible that someone could have already answered to this question that i just put.
many of you said like i am complaining about something that i anyway have to do and there's a problem with my attitude. (as long as i'm employed, paid, i should be doing what is being told) but as i have already written, i have never had this cynical attitude to any work/labor that my boss had thrown me. at least i wish i could understand(puh, remember some of you mentioned about the door schedule, i did enjoy doing them w/o any of these thoughts - -)
gee are you gonna say, go kid do the jobs whatever that is and get paid or leave the company. or say it's a custom to follow.
i see it more to be owner and slave relationship, officials and architects.
--architects are professional, they are paid for their work. like all other careers in the world.
I don't think it's a question of the relationship between architects and government officials, but rather architects and clients. I don't currently have any government clients and I still get asked for nonsense like this all the time, and yes the clients act like they're entitled to it. For better or worse we are a service industry and it's very difficult to tell clients that this type of service is ok and this type is not—often it's just better to make it happen to keep everything going smoothly.
thought it would be better situation in other countries presumably in u.s. but your answer explains alot i guess. thank you Mr.Williams. guess its best to shut up till i grow up to give that damn clients awesome suggestion so that we could at least keep our head up....... fantasy grown from school seems shameful..ahahhaa
That is one of the problems architecture schooling tends to have. It sows seeds of idealism and promotes that image which can be problematic when people get out of architecture school.
That results alot from ivory tower disconnected from the practicing world because alot of professors don't practice because being a professor is often a full-time job for many full-time professors so they don't exactly know or experience professional practice as it is.
agree. but still i believe the way we are treated(in general) or tasks we are upto should be changed. im not talking about tedious archi labors like door schedules, tiny little changes in numerous drawings, collecting numbers for areal measurements,submitting this and that forms/presentation, thousands of plotting and making into book, calling all the cooperatives and keeping up altogether, keeping minutes and im not blaming my boss for transcription. i just can't really bear the fact that the officials are tossing technically their homework to us. the transcription was for their keeping and it's the official's job to give report to his boss. if transcription is company's way to record the meeting and if it has always been like that, i wouldn't mind. the project is underway and everybody involved is paid for their work. no party is prior to the others and we should all respect others. but then economy comes in and ideal relationship fails. i guess one of the only way to get things better is to give them f**** good design that only we can do. nah ha ya seems to me that designing will be so much of fun if it's only finished on paper, if it becomes my hobby not my job that affects the standard of living.
There's a fine line between recording a minutes of meeting, and taking a detailed record of every single word uttered in a 1.5 hour conversation between multiple people.
While I do believe people new in the field should suck it up and learn to deal with some of the "non-architecture" business matters, this case seems like pure bullshit that should be left to a professional.
Seriously?
If the boss thinks it's important, who are you to decide they are wrong?
It's work that needs to be done. Maybe it's normal, maybe it's a special case. Honestly, for whatever reason, it needs to be done.
The entitlement in this thread is knee deep.
Having been an entitled brat please learn from my mistakes - try to see the big picture and do what's necessary to complete the project, even if it feels beneath you. Because, honestly, your boss probably does things "beneath him" (or her) many times a day too.
but i don't wanna!!! it is not in our scope!! my boss should know better!!! waa waaa waaaa!!!
i know my decision won't change anything for now and know that i have no permission for such but i personally see this happening to be (like a.i. said) pure bullshit. hoping it to never occur again in the future( what a dream lol ). i wondered if i understood the word 'entitlement' correctly so i checked the oxford dic. and i don't think we even had to bring out that word 'entitlement' (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/entitlement)
think it's just the duty of people involved in the project.
Atchitects love bending over and acting like martyrs. Yes, as a junior, you generally have to suck it up and do it, but my argument is that this attitude is exactly why most architects are terrible business people. We complain about scope creep non-stop, but the next time a client asks us to do extra work for free, we bend over with a smile on our face because we think we have to. We don't.
(This isn't specific to the original poster, just a general observation....)
i wonder what it takes to become a good business people but also can't think doing nonsense jobs for free is also a good way to make money.
When it is your firm and your practice and you're the boss.. you run it however you damn well feel. As long as it is not and therefore your boss's business, it is ran however your boss feels like running it. Remember that. It is the business owners with equity stake that dictates how things are done and ran not the person who has no financial interest/investment into the firm. Right now, as it seems, your only investment is your time from which you are compensated by salary or wage. Until it is your money and your assets on the line invested into the business, you have no legal say in the matter and it is none of your business so stay out of the way of running this firm until you have equity (ie. ownership) stake in the firm and therefore a legal stake holder. Otherwise, you may end up getting fired which does not look good and raises concerns by prospective employers when they see such a thing in your resume.
Is that clear ?
Actually, I take it all back StudioR; you should do everything the boss says and kiss as much ass as you can to protect your resume's reputation. If the boss wants to make you his little secretary minion, then you damn well should know your place you entitled little 21st century brat.
There I fixed it. Better? Christ.
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