"The controversy reached fever pitch a little over a year ago, when the U.S. Labor Department clarified that, under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act, legal, unpaid internships at private businesses would have to satisfy six guidelines. Under the criteria, an intern must: benefit from the job; work under close supervision; not displace regular employees; not provide an “immediate advantage” for the employer and possibly even impede the employer; not necessarily be entitled to a post-internship job; and understand, as should the employer, that he or she is not entitled to wages." From the Great Internship Debate.
...not displace regular employees; not provide an “immediate advantage” for the employer...
in architecture internships, I have a hard time finding any firm that would hire an unpaid intern and not break these two rules. Let's take the last unpaid internship discussion for example: Living Homes in Santa Monica. All the responsibilities of this and virtually all other unpaid internships would make them illegal.
ARCHITECTURAL INTERN
Firm:LivingHomes
Location:Santa Monica, CA, US
Posted on:Fri, Jun 17 '11
Position:
We're looking for an Architectural Intern to join our team. This is an unpaid internship. LivingHomes is a high-growth, startup environment so the successful candidate will have a demonstrated ability to work independently in a fast-paced work atmosphere. This person will also be creative, flexible and knowledgeable about design.
Primary responsibilities include, but are not limited to:
Collaborate with project architects to develop plans, elevations, sections, schedules and details of custom and standard homes.
Build and manage Revit models and design components.
Assist in the production of construction documents.
Assist in maintaining material libraries and sourcing new fixtures, finishes, and equipment.
Qualifications:
2-4 years prior work experience with AutoCAD 2009
1-2 years prior work experience with Revit 2010 min , familiarity with energy modeling a plus.
Interest in sustainable design , architecture and pre fab.
Pursuing or earned BS , BA or MARCH in Architecture.
Other Requirements:
Good written and verbal communication skills.
Ability to complete projects with minimal supervision, self-directed, resourceful, and goal oriented.
An eye for detail and a desire to perform at a high level.
A sense of humor.(SERIOUSLY?)
Software:
Proficiency with AutoCAD, Revit and Sketchup
Experience with the following: Adobe Illustrator, Adobe Photoshop.
Experience with 3D Studio, VRay and any other rendering programs a plus.
Familiarity with Microsoft Office suite of products helpful.
I sent off an email to the Living Homes internship add pointing out that it sounded illegal, and they gave me a very odd response:
[Me]
"To whom it may concern at Living Homes,
As an architecture student currently in university, I find it sad and appalling that you are offering unpaid internships clearly aimed at someone such as myself. Interns deserve more respect than to work for no compensation, no matter how fun working or surfing at your firm might be. As you may or may not know, what you are offering is illegal under American Labor Laws. I would kindly ask that you please remove this position or replace the ad with one that is compensated.
For your reference (link to labor laws)"
Response from Living Homes:
"Our internships offer academic credit and we have two interns here who are receiving credit. As you can see from your link, that is clearly legal. "
My reply back:
"Your ad for the internship explicitly states that it is for someone who is currently in school or recently graduated (1-2 years) from either a Bachelors or Masters degree in Architecture. I'm curious as to how you will be offering academic credit to someone who has already graduated?"
No reply, which leads me to believe that this is not in compliance with labor laws... Just an observation. Thoughts?
rusty! I think you left out a bit of important information... from the very same article "In order to be legal, internships must provide either compensation or academic credit, but not necessarily both."
I take that as meaning that internships are legal as long as the intern is paid or given academic credit. Without one of those methods of compensation the internship is illegal.
I don't know where/if this is written in law, but I would really like to know!
The loophole for internships is only a small part of the Federal Labor Standards Act— the loophole is really meant to bridge a gap between profession and education in university and vocational school.
What employers discovered that people would actually be willing to work for free, they crossed a line is when they began recruiting from the general employment pool. The reason for this primarily is control — they don't have to submit to the rules, regulations or other stipulations that come with taking on students from a university or vocational school.
Obviously businesses who profit from universities directly — such as hospitals, engineering firms, information technology and even business schools — are going to kiss ass and take in students to maintain their ties with the sort-of-free* idea farm.
But, rusty is right— there exist a few loopholes within the FSLA to get interns to work for free.
A smart company would just create a non-for-profit duplicate of themselves, outsource their work to their dummy 501(c) non-profit and fill it to the brim with unpaid interns slaving away on various work for free. You could even get clients to "donate" to your architectural institution so they can write off part of the fee they are paying you to produce documentation.
I guess I've never understood why it is such a horrible thing. Taking advantage of someone, sure, but everyone has a choice. Personally, I turned down the free ones and found one that paid (pennies, really, but it paid).
I am sure there are many cases of abuse, like with anything, I've just never heard of them (first hand) or seen it.
The bigger issue to me is education (not architecture, necessarily). Internships you might lose a few grand, at most, but with the horrible preparation we get in high school for college leaves many with full degrees that are useless. That, to me, is the far more significant crime. Different players, for sure, but I'd point my finger at U's everywhere and shout "talk about taking advantage of the young and naive".
Taking advantage of someone, sure, but everyone has a choice
The choice between working for free or falling behind? Having an unusable degree because there are enough experienced people that recent grads aren't considered?
"Taking advantage of someone, sure, but everyone has a choice."
Other people's choices effect you. News at 11.
If unpaid internship becomes a standard entry point into any profession, then number of paid positions decreases, and the overall payscale shifts down. News at 11:15.
Apparently we all should have gone to school to become scientists and engineers because clearly science and engineering doesn't have an employment saturation point.
Mind you, employers in Great Britain seem to be complaining that British workers are incapable of reading, writing or having basic communication skills. Yet, the UK clearly keeps denying my visa applications. I do believe that I am competent enough to write basic sentences, have enough reading skills to read a cash register menu and am generally able to say a few sentences that conveys an idea to client or customer.
At least in the U.S., employers are complaining that we're not all capable doctorate students willing to work for $28,000 a year.
Because that's all the U.S. really needs is more assholes figuring out ways to make shitty products and shitty environments even shittier to be mass-produced even more shitly at an ever increasing shitty price.
I'll rue the day when science and engineering finds a way to make even shittier plastics out of even shittier raw materials made by shitty assembly lines staffed by shitty robots and ships them in an increasing more shitty packaging scheme via an even shittier transportation network discounting my already shitty local infrastructure, which by the way is so shitty it doesn't actually move actual shit anywhere because moving shit has been deemed to expensive.
Said shittiest shittingly shit products will then be bought by shit people working for shit wages at even more shit jobs made possible by the same shit corporations who have brought you the shittiest shit products that are even shittier than shit was 30 shitting years ago.
Thanks science... you've really mastered the science of complete and utter shitastically shitty shit.
P.S. I'm also shittingly flagging my own shit-filled post for containing far too much shit than the shit Terms-of-Shit would allow my shitty post to contain with actual shit.
The bigger issue to me is education (not architecture, necessarily). Internships you might lose a few grand, at most, but with the horrible preparation we get in high school for college leaves many with full degrees that are useless. That, to me, is the far more significant crime.
Oh my god thank you. Finally someone says that. I totally agree with you.
It just makes me angry that the schools suck so much money (so much, so fucking much that makes most students bankrupt or dying under the forever dept right fucking after graduation) from the students and make them unprepared employees that justify most employers to not pay them until they fucking learn. Lean? What the hell? What did we do in school?
The illegal internships that we try to fight on this site are not those which provide school credit for work - that is completely legal, as referenced in the original post. The problem is the many firms which take an unpaid intern, have them do the same things as a regular employee would do, bill for their labor, and do not pay them. This is completely illegal (because the firm derives benefit from your labor in the form of work done that regular employees do and in the form of labor billings) and this is the practice that we need to weed out of the profession.
Pardon my ignorance but what is an "academic credit"? Is it the fact that internships are mandatory to pass your grads and the final stamp from the firm on your internship papers are that academic credit?
No, nils. Academic credit is what you get at a university when you pass a class. You pay tuition, you complete coursework, and you get 1 or 3 or 5 or however many credits towards your degree. Usually in American universities undergraduates take enough classes each semester to earn 12-18 credits.
Some universities offer work experience programs in which you can pay tuition to the school but instead of taking a class you take a job. The firm you work at has to be officially partnered with the school to take you on as an intern, and instead of paying you they sign paperwork saying you completed enough work/hours in the office to earn the agreed upon amount of credit.
So an intern earning academic credit IS being paid, in the form of learning experience in the field rather than learning from a book and lectures, and in credit towards achieveing their degree.
Actually I need to clarify my statement above, slightly - even if the firm doesn't bill for you--never receives any direct payment for your hours of labor from clients--if you are receiving no compensation and you are doing typical work that a typical paid employee would do (picking up redlines; organizing the sample library; formatting drawing sheets; rendering; photoshopping concept images; putting together marketing brochures or submitting for competitions; answering phones; even getting the mail and putting together ups / courier shipments... the list goes on) your firm is illegally "employing" you per the IRS.
I'm coming in as something of an outsider here but...look guys, I respect architects a lot. I think they deserve a lot of credit for what they do. But in all frankness...this worry about the internships being a source of cheap labour?
It happens in many other professions, and to a far worse degree than in architecture. Take a look at early childhood (kindergarten) teachers, or chefs. They don't complain too much though. Being an intern is a privilege in itself. It's not impossible, or unusual, to study, intern, and then do a part-time job and live on $240 a month.
It's just very painful. But it's not forever. No offence.
The teachers who intern at my son's public school get academic credit AND a stipend. So they aren't unpaid labor.
The ad referenced by burningman asks for someone with 2-4 years of experience who is able to work without supervision.
It's illegal. It's unethical.
AND it's totally unnecessary. I've never worked for free, and no one needs to, but within our profession a culture exists that implies that it's expected and OK. Posters like myself who get angry at this practice want it to not be acceptable in OUR profession - I'm a registered professional and would never engage in it.
chefs don't get 5-7 year university degrees. if they do internships, it probably amounts to more of an apprenticeship. to require an apprenticeship AFTER an extensive professional education is redundant, excessive, and ridiculous.
What? No teacher works for free. They are earning minimum academic credit during their student teaching program (which is often, lately, concurrent with evening classes) and in many programs they get paid on top of this. There is no model for free labor in teaching that I know of (well, besides the extra hours of labor they give for free every night... but that's a feature of most of the professions of course).
None of the chefs I know ever worked for free (peanuts, yes, but free, no) but granted I know only a handful of chefs so can't say I know their field. I DO know quite a bit about teaching, though...
Most of the chefs I knew in NYC got fired more often than what I thought was humanly possible. Horrible profession. I truly hope we never get compared to them again.
The reason I posted this topic is because of the between the lines stuff. Department of Labor had a very weak response to the issue of unpaid internships, which makes it sound like they are not willing to do much about it. It's kind of like jaywalking. Or in NYC terms, green=walk, red=run!
Well, the Department of Labor like anyone else has a budget. Even if the government "prints its own money." Could you imagine the costs of what happens when companies fight those unpaid intern fines in court? Lawyers, paralegals and associated bureaucrats aren't cheap.
I'm also sure that the amount they receive from the fine, without an actual lawsuit, doesn't cover the cost of the investigation in order to issue the fine in the first place.
Sure, there's the punitive feelgoodery associated with stopping the practice temporarily. But what happens when the employer strikes out three or more times? Can't imprison people if you want money out of them.
Methinks the Department of Labor needs a ton of unpaid interns in order to fight unpaid internships.
Jul 14, 11 1:33 am ·
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Work without compensation that isn't in the format of a structured ON THE JOB TRAINING which you get credit for is CALLED - SLAVERY ! ! ! !
It is a FEDERAL level Felony. Employers who engage in SLAVERY (regardless of how they call it) shall be reported and those individuals needs to go to FEDERAL PRISON for the 20+ years sentence without possibility of parole.
Slavery was outlawed in the 1800s. This conduct is falsified use of a loop hole to conduct slavery. Such conduct should be filed with FEDERAL COURTS. Employers doing this needs to be arrested and thrown in jail. LITERALLY.
If any of you are an employer, either pay or follow the system rules to the letter. Unpaid internship shall not involve more than 40 hours of intenship per college credit.
Any other internship shall be paid employment. IDP interns MUST BE PAID. They aren't working for college credits. IDP interns are EMPLOYEES or CONTRACTED. They are not SLAVES to be abused.
Jul 16, 11 4:48 am ·
·
Then the architect's accounts, property, EVERYTHING of value would be seized in order to compensate and will be indebted and fines will be stacked upon for every day they don't resolve it. Ultimately, things would be resolved in order for the person awarded would be compensated for but the person would be indebted.
There are measures to deal with issues you mentioned, J.James R.
I agree in essence with your thoughts and the spirit of you are saying but I would advise to be careful when using term "Slavery" to make a comparison. In system that allows slavery, slaves are not free but they were owned and resold as common goods. All architectural professionals have freedom to avoid such abuse and more so a duty to report such activity to proper authorities.
Jul 16, 11 1:18 pm ·
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Well, there is a couple of definitions used in these cases and not only the strictest definition.
"In system that allows slavery, slaves are not free but they were owned and resold as common goods."
That is a real shallow definition of slavery invented to defend slavery is a thing of the past/history nowadays, specially in United States and in Europe.
What about people with almost no chance of upwardly move in society? People with no permit to seek better jobs therefore exploited by almost all the segments globally? People living under brutal conditions in ghettos? People picked up from the sidewalks to dig ditches for expensive projects? People hired to clean up industrial poison? People who has no other chance of survival other than accept worst conditions? People in fact bought and sold even today in least suspicious places. And, they just don't all look like Kunta-Kinte anymore... That's all.
...people employed by contractors of the US military who are recruited in third world countries very far from afghanistan and iraq, lied to about the nature of the job, the location, and the pay, shipped very far from their families, have their passports taken away, are housed on a base in a war zone, are often abused without recourse to justice as they are not direct employees of the US govt nor US nationals nor nationals of the "country" in which they are living, and are trapped there without ability to get back home to their families?
Yeah, that's slavery. And your tax dollars are paying for it. Hooray! thank god KBR has had record-breaking profits! the war has been really great for our economy! let's cut medicaid spending so we don't have to raise the debt ceiling!
Before we fall of the horse and continue sidetracking the topic I want to restate that there is a big difference between unpaid internship abuse and slavery. Of course you can find grave abuses of human rights in the world to flood the topic but we are talking here about unpaid internship in the US. My point is to try not to cheapen the term slavery. This country fought a civil war to end slavery, numerous lives were lost and destroyed with the slavery system and it is degrading to use the term to describe a practice that should be dealt by the US Labor Department.
And by the way, some of the abuses that you (@Orhan) listed are just plain old capitalism. When you think about them socialism doesn't sound all that bad.
You need to use the term "chattel slavery" then. Because "slavery" encompasses a broad umbrella term of a kind of exploitation of the workforce. There's even forms of slavery that are completely voluntary such as contract workers and indentured servants. And some slaves were only enslaved temporarily and then even paid or remunerated for the period of enslavement.
The simplest definition of slavery is any exploitative dominion over a party where the employer-employee relationship isn't mutually beneficial. The principal drive of many in this country to assume that slavery is only defined as chattel slavery is to avoid the slippery slope of investigating gross exploitation overall where cards are generally stacked in favor of the employer.
That's where you get into exciting conversations of wage enslavement and post-modern slavery.
And technically, you're in the wrong about this. Many 19th-century abolitionists opposed the post-slavery apprenticeship programs instituted to retrain slaves as another form of conveniently disguised slavery where prospective employees were paid a fraction of their potential wages over years long "training periods."
Both in Britain and America, these "training periods" are what lead to a second wave of civil disobedience, tougher labor laws and the formation of unions.
Where I come from, early childhood teachers (like my cousin) are complaining about their practicum. This is about 2 months of work, completely unpaid, where they're working in childcare centers. The argument is that the center is doing them a favour by letting them work there. It doesn't happen with teachers at other levels though, probably because the government doesn't legislate heavily in preschool education.
As for chefs...them I know, because I used to be in the restaurant business. Some of them do work for free, in lieu of going to a culinary school. Not for any mom & pop eatery of course, but if they're going for internships in high end restaurants, or want to wind up working in a Michelin star joint on their next stop. I concede that this is largely a matter of choice rather than neccesity, though that's a very outsider perspective to take. Let's just say that if you're a very driven young chef with dreams, it's critical to not be working in passable diners your whole life. It's life or death (career wise)
James you are correct and if I made a factual error I do apologize. However, when one mentions slavery, few go to Wikipedia to find a proper definition of the term and they rather associate the term with the darkest history of this country. The person who usually resort to the term know that and they use the term mostly for shock value and not necessarily to properly understand the issue.
My question is actually, why isn't AIA going after these firms who are clearly violating the Labor laws. Why does it have to be people like @JustAnotherName who have to spend their time on it. As we can see a couple of emails to the firm could well discourage such practice.
Jul 19, 11 6:16 am ·
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Unpaid internships are legal
"The controversy reached fever pitch a little over a year ago, when the U.S. Labor Department clarified that, under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act, legal, unpaid internships at private businesses would have to satisfy six guidelines. Under the criteria, an intern must: benefit from the job; work under close supervision; not displace regular employees; not provide an “immediate advantage” for the employer and possibly even impede the employer; not necessarily be entitled to a post-internship job; and understand, as should the employer, that he or she is not entitled to wages." From the Great Internship Debate.
So that settles that one.
...not displace regular employees; not provide an “immediate advantage” for the employer...
in architecture internships, I have a hard time finding any firm that would hire an unpaid intern and not break these two rules. Let's take the last unpaid internship discussion for example: Living Homes in Santa Monica. All the responsibilities of this and virtually all other unpaid internships would make them illegal.
ARCHITECTURAL INTERN
Firm:LivingHomes
Location:Santa Monica, CA, US
Posted on:Fri, Jun 17 '11
Position:
We're looking for an Architectural Intern to join our team. This is an unpaid internship. LivingHomes is a high-growth, startup environment so the successful candidate will have a demonstrated ability to work independently in a fast-paced work atmosphere. This person will also be creative, flexible and knowledgeable about design.
Primary responsibilities include, but are not limited to:
Collaborate with project architects to develop plans, elevations, sections, schedules and details of custom and standard homes.
Build and manage Revit models and design components.
Assist in the production of construction documents.
Assist in maintaining material libraries and sourcing new fixtures, finishes, and equipment.
Qualifications:
2-4 years prior work experience with AutoCAD 2009
1-2 years prior work experience with Revit 2010 min , familiarity with energy modeling a plus.
Interest in sustainable design , architecture and pre fab.
Pursuing or earned BS , BA or MARCH in Architecture.
Other Requirements:
Good written and verbal communication skills.
Ability to complete projects with minimal supervision, self-directed, resourceful, and goal oriented.
An eye for detail and a desire to perform at a high level.
A sense of humor.(SERIOUSLY?)
Software:
Proficiency with AutoCAD, Revit and Sketchup
Experience with the following: Adobe Illustrator, Adobe Photoshop.
Experience with 3D Studio, VRay and any other rendering programs a plus.
Familiarity with Microsoft Office suite of products helpful.
Rusty + Burningman + others...
I sent off an email to the Living Homes internship add pointing out that it sounded illegal, and they gave me a very odd response:
[Me]
"To whom it may concern at Living Homes,
As an architecture student currently in university, I find it sad and appalling that you are offering unpaid internships clearly aimed at someone such as myself. Interns deserve more respect than to work for no compensation, no matter how fun working or surfing at your firm might be. As you may or may not know, what you are offering is illegal under American Labor Laws. I would kindly ask that you please remove this position or replace the ad with one that is compensated.
For your reference (link to labor laws)"
Response from Living Homes:
"Our internships offer academic credit and we have two interns here who are receiving credit. As you can see from your link, that is clearly legal. "
My reply back:
"Your ad for the internship explicitly states that it is for someone who is currently in school or recently graduated (1-2 years) from either a Bachelors or Masters degree in Architecture. I'm curious as to how you will be offering academic credit to someone who has already graduated?"
No reply, which leads me to believe that this is not in compliance with labor laws... Just an observation. Thoughts?
rusty! I think you left out a bit of important information... from the very same article "In order to be legal, internships must provide either compensation or academic credit, but not necessarily both."
I take that as meaning that internships are legal as long as the intern is paid or given academic credit. Without one of those methods of compensation the internship is illegal.
I don't know where/if this is written in law, but I would really like to know!
The loophole for internships is only a small part of the Federal Labor Standards Act— the loophole is really meant to bridge a gap between profession and education in university and vocational school.
What employers discovered that people would actually be willing to work for free, they crossed a line is when they began recruiting from the general employment pool. The reason for this primarily is control — they don't have to submit to the rules, regulations or other stipulations that come with taking on students from a university or vocational school.
Obviously businesses who profit from universities directly — such as hospitals, engineering firms, information technology and even business schools — are going to kiss ass and take in students to maintain their ties with the sort-of-free* idea farm.
But, rusty is right— there exist a few loopholes within the FSLA to get interns to work for free.
A smart company would just create a non-for-profit duplicate of themselves, outsource their work to their dummy 501(c) non-profit and fill it to the brim with unpaid interns slaving away on various work for free. You could even get clients to "donate" to your architectural institution so they can write off part of the fee they are paying you to produce documentation.
Woah, my malevolence is beginning to even startle myself.
I guess I've never understood why it is such a horrible thing. Taking advantage of someone, sure, but everyone has a choice. Personally, I turned down the free ones and found one that paid (pennies, really, but it paid).
I am sure there are many cases of abuse, like with anything, I've just never heard of them (first hand) or seen it.
The bigger issue to me is education (not architecture, necessarily). Internships you might lose a few grand, at most, but with the horrible preparation we get in high school for college leaves many with full degrees that are useless. That, to me, is the far more significant crime. Different players, for sure, but I'd point my finger at U's everywhere and shout "talk about taking advantage of the young and naive".
It's still fucked up.
Taking advantage of someone, sure, but everyone has a choice
The choice between working for free or falling behind? Having an unusable degree because there are enough experienced people that recent grads aren't considered?
"Taking advantage of someone, sure, but everyone has a choice."
Other people's choices effect you. News at 11.
If unpaid internship becomes a standard entry point into any profession, then number of paid positions decreases, and the overall payscale shifts down. News at 11:15.
Although this is British in nature, it does apply to the mantra corporate America has been repeating ad nauseam — British workers have no skills and a bad attitude: Employers hit back at IDS claims that they hire too many migrants.
Apparently we all should have gone to school to become scientists and engineers because clearly science and engineering doesn't have an employment saturation point.
Mind you, employers in Great Britain seem to be complaining that British workers are incapable of reading, writing or having basic communication skills. Yet, the UK clearly keeps denying my visa applications. I do believe that I am competent enough to write basic sentences, have enough reading skills to read a cash register menu and am generally able to say a few sentences that conveys an idea to client or customer.
At least in the U.S., employers are complaining that we're not all capable doctorate students willing to work for $28,000 a year.
Because that's all the U.S. really needs is more assholes figuring out ways to make shitty products and shitty environments even shittier to be mass-produced even more shitly at an ever increasing shitty price.
I'll rue the day when science and engineering finds a way to make even shittier plastics out of even shittier raw materials made by shitty assembly lines staffed by shitty robots and ships them in an increasing more shitty packaging scheme via an even shittier transportation network discounting my already shitty local infrastructure, which by the way is so shitty it doesn't actually move actual shit anywhere because moving shit has been deemed to expensive.
Said shittiest shittingly shit products will then be bought by shit people working for shit wages at even more shit jobs made possible by the same shit corporations who have brought you the shittiest shit products that are even shittier than shit was 30 shitting years ago.
Thanks science... you've really mastered the science of complete and utter shitastically shitty shit.
Shit. Shit. Shit. And shit.
P.S. I'm also shittingly flagging my own shit-filled post for containing far too much shit than the shit Terms-of-Shit would allow my shitty post to contain with actual shit.
trace™,
The bigger issue to me is education (not architecture, necessarily). Internships you might lose a few grand, at most, but with the horrible preparation we get in high school for college leaves many with full degrees that are useless. That, to me, is the far more significant crime.
Oh my god thank you. Finally someone says that. I totally agree with you.
It just makes me angry that the schools suck so much money (so much, so fucking much that makes most students bankrupt or dying under the forever dept right fucking after graduation) from the students and make them unprepared employees that justify most employers to not pay them until they fucking learn. Lean? What the hell? What did we do in school?
The illegal internships that we try to fight on this site are not those which provide school credit for work - that is completely legal, as referenced in the original post. The problem is the many firms which take an unpaid intern, have them do the same things as a regular employee would do, bill for their labor, and do not pay them. This is completely illegal (because the firm derives benefit from your labor in the form of work done that regular employees do and in the form of labor billings) and this is the practice that we need to weed out of the profession.
Pardon my ignorance but what is an "academic credit"? Is it the fact that internships are mandatory to pass your grads and the final stamp from the firm on your internship papers are that academic credit?
thnx
Nils
No, nils. Academic credit is what you get at a university when you pass a class. You pay tuition, you complete coursework, and you get 1 or 3 or 5 or however many credits towards your degree. Usually in American universities undergraduates take enough classes each semester to earn 12-18 credits.
Some universities offer work experience programs in which you can pay tuition to the school but instead of taking a class you take a job. The firm you work at has to be officially partnered with the school to take you on as an intern, and instead of paying you they sign paperwork saying you completed enough work/hours in the office to earn the agreed upon amount of credit.
So an intern earning academic credit IS being paid, in the form of learning experience in the field rather than learning from a book and lectures, and in credit towards achieveing their degree.
Actually I need to clarify my statement above, slightly - even if the firm doesn't bill for you--never receives any direct payment for your hours of labor from clients--if you are receiving no compensation and you are doing typical work that a typical paid employee would do (picking up redlines; organizing the sample library; formatting drawing sheets; rendering; photoshopping concept images; putting together marketing brochures or submitting for competitions; answering phones; even getting the mail and putting together ups / courier shipments... the list goes on) your firm is illegally "employing" you per the IRS.
*Ahem*
I'm coming in as something of an outsider here but...look guys, I respect architects a lot. I think they deserve a lot of credit for what they do. But in all frankness...this worry about the internships being a source of cheap labour?
It happens in many other professions, and to a far worse degree than in architecture. Take a look at early childhood (kindergarten) teachers, or chefs. They don't complain too much though. Being an intern is a privilege in itself. It's not impossible, or unusual, to study, intern, and then do a part-time job and live on $240 a month.
It's just very painful. But it's not forever. No offence.
The teachers who intern at my son's public school get academic credit AND a stipend. So they aren't unpaid labor.
The ad referenced by burningman asks for someone with 2-4 years of experience who is able to work without supervision.
It's illegal. It's unethical.
AND it's totally unnecessary. I've never worked for free, and no one needs to, but within our profession a culture exists that implies that it's expected and OK. Posters like myself who get angry at this practice want it to not be acceptable in OUR profession - I'm a registered professional and would never engage in it.
chefs don't get 5-7 year university degrees. if they do internships, it probably amounts to more of an apprenticeship. to require an apprenticeship AFTER an extensive professional education is redundant, excessive, and ridiculous.
What? No teacher works for free. They are earning minimum academic credit during their student teaching program (which is often, lately, concurrent with evening classes) and in many programs they get paid on top of this. There is no model for free labor in teaching that I know of (well, besides the extra hours of labor they give for free every night... but that's a feature of most of the professions of course).
None of the chefs I know ever worked for free (peanuts, yes, but free, no) but granted I know only a handful of chefs so can't say I know their field. I DO know quite a bit about teaching, though...
Most of the chefs I knew in NYC got fired more often than what I thought was humanly possible. Horrible profession. I truly hope we never get compared to them again.
The reason I posted this topic is because of the between the lines stuff. Department of Labor had a very weak response to the issue of unpaid internships, which makes it sound like they are not willing to do much about it. It's kind of like jaywalking. Or in NYC terms, green=walk, red=run!
Well, the Department of Labor like anyone else has a budget. Even if the government "prints its own money." Could you imagine the costs of what happens when companies fight those unpaid intern fines in court? Lawyers, paralegals and associated bureaucrats aren't cheap.
I'm also sure that the amount they receive from the fine, without an actual lawsuit, doesn't cover the cost of the investigation in order to issue the fine in the first place.
Sure, there's the punitive feelgoodery associated with stopping the practice temporarily. But what happens when the employer strikes out three or more times? Can't imprison people if you want money out of them.
Methinks the Department of Labor needs a ton of unpaid interns in order to fight unpaid internships.
Work without compensation that isn't in the format of a structured ON THE JOB TRAINING which you get credit for is CALLED - SLAVERY ! ! ! !
It is a FEDERAL level Felony. Employers who engage in SLAVERY (regardless of how they call it) shall be reported and those individuals needs to go to FEDERAL PRISON for the 20+ years sentence without possibility of parole.
Slavery was outlawed in the 1800s. This conduct is falsified use of a loop hole to conduct slavery. Such conduct should be filed with FEDERAL COURTS. Employers doing this needs to be arrested and thrown in jail. LITERALLY.
If any of you are an employer, either pay or follow the system rules to the letter. Unpaid internship shall not involve more than 40 hours of intenship per college credit.
Any other internship shall be paid employment. IDP interns MUST BE PAID. They aren't working for college credits. IDP interns are EMPLOYEES or CONTRACTED. They are not SLAVES to be abused.
Then the architect's accounts, property, EVERYTHING of value would be seized in order to compensate and will be indebted and fines will be stacked upon for every day they don't resolve it. Ultimately, things would be resolved in order for the person awarded would be compensated for but the person would be indebted.
There are measures to deal with issues you mentioned, J.James R.
@RickB-OR
I agree in essence with your thoughts and the spirit of you are saying but I would advise to be careful when using term "Slavery" to make a comparison. In system that allows slavery, slaves are not free but they were owned and resold as common goods. All architectural professionals have freedom to avoid such abuse and more so a duty to report such activity to proper authorities.
Well, there is a couple of definitions used in these cases and not only the strictest definition.
There is probably a couple other terms used.
"In system that allows slavery, slaves are not free but they were owned and resold as common goods."
That is a real shallow definition of slavery invented to defend slavery is a thing of the past/history nowadays, specially in United States and in Europe.
What about people with almost no chance of upwardly move in society? People with no permit to seek better jobs therefore exploited by almost all the segments globally? People living under brutal conditions in ghettos? People picked up from the sidewalks to dig ditches for expensive projects? People hired to clean up industrial poison? People who has no other chance of survival other than accept worst conditions? People in fact bought and sold even today in least suspicious places. And, they just don't all look like Kunta-Kinte anymore... That's all.
...people employed by contractors of the US military who are recruited in third world countries very far from afghanistan and iraq, lied to about the nature of the job, the location, and the pay, shipped very far from their families, have their passports taken away, are housed on a base in a war zone, are often abused without recourse to justice as they are not direct employees of the US govt nor US nationals nor nationals of the "country" in which they are living, and are trapped there without ability to get back home to their families?
Yeah, that's slavery. And your tax dollars are paying for it. Hooray! thank god KBR has had record-breaking profits! the war has been really great for our economy! let's cut medicaid spending so we don't have to raise the debt ceiling!
unpaid internship SUCK.
Before we fall of the horse and continue sidetracking the topic I want to restate that there is a big difference between unpaid internship abuse and slavery. Of course you can find grave abuses of human rights in the world to flood the topic but we are talking here about unpaid internship in the US. My point is to try not to cheapen the term slavery. This country fought a civil war to end slavery, numerous lives were lost and destroyed with the slavery system and it is degrading to use the term to describe a practice that should be dealt by the US Labor Department.
And by the way, some of the abuses that you (@Orhan) listed are just plain old capitalism. When you think about them socialism doesn't sound all that bad.
You need to use the term "chattel slavery" then. Because "slavery" encompasses a broad umbrella term of a kind of exploitation of the workforce. There's even forms of slavery that are completely voluntary such as contract workers and indentured servants. And some slaves were only enslaved temporarily and then even paid or remunerated for the period of enslavement.
The simplest definition of slavery is any exploitative dominion over a party where the employer-employee relationship isn't mutually beneficial. The principal drive of many in this country to assume that slavery is only defined as chattel slavery is to avoid the slippery slope of investigating gross exploitation overall where cards are generally stacked in favor of the employer.
That's where you get into exciting conversations of wage enslavement and post-modern slavery.
And technically, you're in the wrong about this. Many 19th-century abolitionists opposed the post-slavery apprenticeship programs instituted to retrain slaves as another form of conveniently disguised slavery where prospective employees were paid a fraction of their potential wages over years long "training periods."
Both in Britain and America, these "training periods" are what lead to a second wave of civil disobedience, tougher labor laws and the formation of unions.
Mantaray,
Where I come from, early childhood teachers (like my cousin) are complaining about their practicum. This is about 2 months of work, completely unpaid, where they're working in childcare centers. The argument is that the center is doing them a favour by letting them work there. It doesn't happen with teachers at other levels though, probably because the government doesn't legislate heavily in preschool education.
As for chefs...them I know, because I used to be in the restaurant business. Some of them do work for free, in lieu of going to a culinary school. Not for any mom & pop eatery of course, but if they're going for internships in high end restaurants, or want to wind up working in a Michelin star joint on their next stop. I concede that this is largely a matter of choice rather than neccesity, though that's a very outsider perspective to take. Let's just say that if you're a very driven young chef with dreams, it's critical to not be working in passable diners your whole life. It's life or death (career wise)
Where are you located, Ryan?
Good old S'pore mantaray!
Well, maybe not old.
James you are correct and if I made a factual error I do apologize. However, when one mentions slavery, few go to Wikipedia to find a proper definition of the term and they rather associate the term with the darkest history of this country. The person who usually resort to the term know that and they use the term mostly for shock value and not necessarily to properly understand the issue.
Either way thanks for your thorough input.
I wonder if the Clerks for Federal Court Judges get paid? It is sort of an internship.
Federal? Those would be JS positions most of which start at JS9-JS12 Step 1. Around $50,000 depending on the location.
A JS12 position (Step 1) in Dallas pulls in around $68,000 a year and $72,000 in New York.
My question is actually, why isn't AIA going after these firms who are clearly violating the Labor laws. Why does it have to be people like @JustAnotherName who have to spend their time on it. As we can see a couple of emails to the firm could well discourage such practice.
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