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mosque

139
randy1

on the city planning side of the discussion: why is it a good decision to build the islamic center in lower manhattan several blocks from "ground zero"

 
Aug 17, 10 8:29 am
b3tadine[sutures]

make an argument why it shouldn't be several blocks from "ground zero", and i'll respond.

Aug 17, 10 8:33 am  · 
 · 
BOTS

some local musician summed up the mood a while back

Aug 17, 10 8:48 am  · 
 · 
husker du?

2001.10.28 11:35

While human memory itself is very likely the prototype of all reenactment, memorials themselves are not necessarily manifestations of reenactionary architecturalism. Keeping and displaying the ruins of the World Trade Center towers is not an act of reenactment. Rebuilding the towers, each up to the height of 9/11 impact, each with a gigantic staircase spiraling down, and each filled with a core of places of prayer and worship (with a mosque at each acme), would be reenactionary architecturism, especially for pilgrims that fly (via helicopters) to the tops and then walk all the way down.

Aug 17, 10 8:53 am  · 
 · 
poop876

I'm totally fine with building a mosque or anything else around ground zero, but since the project deals with a lot of feelings locally I believe that the project should be put on city wide vote and let the New Yorkers decide what they want.

Aug 17, 10 9:13 am  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

yeah, let's let the mobocracy decide...if we let the mob decide we'd have; japanese in internment camps, oh wait, we did. if we let the mob decide we'd have; separate drinking fountains for negroes, oh wait, we did that too. if we let the mob decide we'd have; denied women the right to make decisions about their own healthcare, oh, for love of all that's unholy...

Aug 17, 10 9:39 am  · 
 · 

poop, sometimes what the people decide they "want" isn't what is right. I "want" all child abusers to be drawn and quartered, but do I get to decide whether I get it via a special direct vote? No, instead I vote for representatives who I hope will push for the agenda I want thus representing my view - and the legislative process will generally prevent abuses of rights that angry mobs like me think we want.

We're a country founded on religious freedom. The 9/11 attacks were the result of religious fanaticism. Millions of non-terrorist Muslims deserve the same freedoms and rights that millions of non-terrorist Christians deserve.

I'm with beta: If this is America, then there is no good reason why a mosque should not be allowed to be built in NYC. And the fact that we (meaning we as a society of media consumers, not we here on archinect) are having this discussion at all is appalling.

Aug 17, 10 9:44 am  · 
 · 
farwest1

As with all things, the Far Right is exposing its utter hypocrisy here.

They claim to be for private property rights. At least, until someone they dislike tries to do something with their own private property (like build an Islamic Center.) Then the Far Right has a hyperventilating fit.

Other points: 1. most of the people protesting the Mosque are not from New York, but from places like Texas and Alaska. Why do they have a right to tell New Yorkers how to use their land?

2. Republicans always run on symbolic issues. If you look at the polls, their positions are unpopular with the general public. But they are very adept at creating moral outrage over completely small issues. (i.e. who REALLY cares if two gay men profess their love to one another and it's recognized by the state? Does it in any way affect you and me? No.) This mosque is a completely local issue with no real consequences.

Aug 17, 10 9:44 am  · 
 · 
holz.box

not to mention, there already IS a mosque "at ground zero" (is it any surprise the mentally challenged right is also spatially challenged?!?)

are they as vocal about removing the catholic church nearby due to a few extremist priests who fondled hundreds, if not thousands, of little boys?

the hypocrisy of those that don't even live in the area (and always claim that somehow we're trampling on their rights to be fucktards) really annoys me.

someone, please put the morons in their place...

you won't find republicans running on any specific issue or platform this election. cos they know they'd be trampled, much in the same way that muslim rights in this country are presently being assaulted.

Aug 17, 10 10:04 am  · 
 · 
ichweiB

The problem is that many conservative Americans don't recognize that there is a fundamental difference between the religious fanaticism demonstrated in the name of Islam and Islam itself. We all know its nothing new-the same amount of fanaticism exists in Christianity-some Christians will say "well, but we don't have terrorists." For whatever reason, Christians want to deny that their are fanatics that have every intention of being just that - terrorists in the name of Christianity. These groups exist in the US. They exist in the Middle East. If any Christians do acknowledge it, they will quickly disassociate themselves from these groups; however, neglecting to recognize that may good upstanding and decent people that also happen to be Muslim disassociate themselves as well from the fanaticism of those who have caused terror in the name of Islam.

I don't get it.

Aug 17, 10 10:41 am  · 
 · 
randy1

after watching the trade center get built way back when, and being a native ny'er/lower manhattan, and knowing that each and every mornin' while taking the A train i know one thing - now - we all stink! from perfume to after shave to whatever they put on their hair to body odor to booze to etc..... given that context: where do people get off thinking their s*it doesn't stink.

"a divided house will fall" and the fanatics (on all sides) have an agenda to do just that. i see it as: we can influence those powers that be - that their are people out there who understand that with diversity and differences we will discover better solutions for living other than the ones offered up by troublemakers like palin, gingritch, bin laden, fox news and their pals.

the us constitution is very clear on this point our nation was founded upon this very fact - religious freedom for all.

placing a cultural center next in ny's financial district - that has grown to include a large residential sector over the last thirty years or so - seems to me to be a natural outgrowth of an urban environment. why people object or even propose that this structure is an infringement on the sanctity of "ground zero" rather than the opportunity to discover, learn, and teach each other how we can become a better society is beyond me.

Aug 17, 10 11:29 am  · 
 · 
BOTS

lordy lord - just discovered the new shopping centre in my old stomping grounds of Plymouth. I want this to win.

They say context is everything....



Aug 17, 10 11:44 am  · 
 · 
randy1

oh and BTW: there are about eight "gentleman's clubs" and countless gin mills within a five block radius of "ground zero". so who's zooming who?

Aug 17, 10 11:44 am  · 
 · 
BOTS

if i can submit it to the correct post....!

Aug 17, 10 11:44 am  · 
 · 
med.

Well they are not building the mosque ON the site of ground zero so what's the problem?

America with the support of most of the American public came in and destroyed Iraq and killed and maimed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Maybe there should be a ban on building churches?

That is how absurd and blatantly racist this entire argument is.

Anyone saying that New Yorkers aren't any worse than bible thumping rednecks need a serious reality check.

Aug 17, 10 12:17 pm  · 
 · 
randy1

yeah med. the project is about four blocks around the corner and away from the SITE. rather, ny'ers are by and large very tolerant of each other (read above - we all stink). its the gingritches, palins, fox news alarmists, AND the bible thumping rednecks around this country not new yorkers who want to oppose this location.

Aug 17, 10 12:41 pm  · 
 · 
poop876

because it is causing some stupid and racist arguments I believe that New Yorkers should decide and not "gingritches, palins, fox news alarmists, AND the bible thumping rednecks around this country". If their voted, local officials don't satisfy them with their decisions...then they would know what to do on the next elections.

Aug 17, 10 12:49 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

new yorkers did decide, by proxy, when they elect people to represent them. we don't open up our rights to the populace. what part of that do you not comprehend? the loudest in the room don't get to decide for those of us who are sane.

Aug 17, 10 12:55 pm  · 
 · 
usernametaken

As an outsider, there's something I just don't get about this issue. 4 blocks away from Ground Zero is apparently too close for the naysayers. So how many blocks would be considered appropriate? 5? 10? 2 cities away?

Other than that is the entire fox-gay-bar-thing also completely bollocks. Fox News hasn't been known for having the most gay-friendly policy, and now wants to use homosexuals to try to piss muslims off... What is next? the Jewish Defense League going to build a pig-slaugherhouse next to the proposed mosque?

Aug 17, 10 12:55 pm  · 
 · 
Distant Unicorn

I'd avoid trying to sensationalize or add emotion to this issue.

At its most basic level, as farwest pointed out, it comes down to a property rights issue.

The majority of people opposing this project are people, both locally within new york and nationally, who typically despise government intervention in private property concerns.

These are the same group of people that over the last decade have tried-- and have been successful at-- to limit or eliminate eminent domain practices that 90% of the time the government has used in good faith.

This is also the same group who feels that they shouldn't pay property tax, feels strongly against the incorporation of suburban communities and generally tries to fight the government on every single redevelopment, comprehensive plan or economic development strategy to hopelessly and forever doomed areas to low-density nightmares.

And, now, this same group wants the government to step in and tell other people what they can or cannot do with their land?!

Bwahahah.

And I'm not sure how many of you all have actually noticed-- and I made quite a nasty point about this-- is that many of the New Yorkers opposing this are probably similar if not the same very same New Yorkers who sit around and complain about hipsters on blogs.

But, it is no longer complaining about hipsters on blogs. They are now blogging about their latest hipster exploits of spitting on them, yelling at them, throwing things at them, beating them up and there's even people now shooting hipsters from rooftops with BB guns.

I've even read a few blog posts about hipster genocide.

I have no idea how a cultural movement based on the rejection and "ironization" of modern culture is already inciting "hate crimes" and calls for extermination.

Aug 17, 10 12:55 pm  · 
 · 
poop876

relax buddy...just expressing my opinion, just like you are your sanity.

I'm sure there is quite a few people that elected those officials that didn't think they would vote for something like this.

Aug 17, 10 1:01 pm  · 
 · 
drums please, Fab?

ah yes, it's all those evil gingritches, palins, fox news alarmists, AND the bible thumping rednecks around this country AND harry reid

Aug 17, 10 1:15 pm  · 
 · 
myOtherFakeName

It seems that the only thing that trumps the ridiculous fear of islamic conspiracy,,,,, is a fear of lost parking spots.

Aug 17, 10 1:15 pm  · 
 · 
randy1

locally, the approvals are in place. the project can go forward - now.

but, its the nay-sayers, alarm-pests, nimby's, florida senate candidates, gingritch, palin, and all the rest of 'em who haven't read the first amendment of our constitution are the one's who object to the location of this project.

fuhgetaboutit!

Aug 17, 10 1:25 pm  · 
 · 
drums please, Fab?
but, its

[sic] the nay-sayers, alarm-pests, nimby's, florida senate candidates, gingritch [sic], palin, and all the rest of 'em who haven't read the first amendment of our constitution are the one's [sic] who object to the location of this project.

Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech

it seems like all those people, including harry reid (!!), are simply exercising their freedom of speech.

whodathunkit?!?
Aug 17, 10 2:29 pm  · 
 · 
JoeyD

build it, get them all inside - then burn it down.

Aug 17, 10 2:36 pm  · 
 · 
Distant Unicorn

Yeah, keep pointing out one Democrat from the "Fuck Capital of Whores, Guns and Slot Machines."

Freedom of speech or not-- and as someone from Florida-- a Republican (or Democrat) running in a primary has absolutely zero authority over the planning and zoning regulations of the City of New York.

What I find distasteful is the fact that Uniform Land Use Review Procedure (ULURP) and actually acquiring a lot in the City of New York is such a long and expensive process. The reality is that this mosque project started months-to-years ago.

Someone at the planning office or the mayor have been keeping this tight-lipped so that they could use it as political leverage in the coming elections.

I'm sure it is some conservative asshole high up in the city who is pissed off that he's forced to live within one of the five boroughs! You know, because NYC is one of the few cities that actually prohibits city employees from being commuters.

Aug 17, 10 2:37 pm  · 
 · 
randy1

yes FRaC, sen. reid is included in this only cause he's another pawn in the game. i wonder what john chase would've thought?

Aug 17, 10 2:40 pm  · 
 · 
aldorossi

Wow, FRaC, you found a spineless Democrat!

Shoot fish in a barrel much?

Aug 17, 10 3:08 pm  · 
 · 
Rusty!

I like the artistic interpretation of the "mosque" issue.

Aug 17, 10 6:51 pm  · 
 · 
randy1

my only end thought to those who re-act out of fear is that while your attitudes abound; you wouldn't last a new york nano-second on the A train. oh and don't forget to vote for palin in '12.

Aug 17, 10 6:58 pm  · 
 · 
zen maker

Maybe it is still too early to build a mosque close to ground zero, 9/11 is still a fresh memory, I think it will take at least another 10 years until we start taking it easier. But it must be devastating for families who lost their loved ones to hear about that mosque, it sparks hatred too, I fear for this mosque safety if it does gets build, I fear something bad will happen to it. For their own safety they shouldn't build it so close to ground zero, unless they want a provocation.

Aug 17, 10 10:52 pm  · 
 · 
aspect

if a few blocks is not appropriate, then how far is?

Aug 17, 10 11:23 pm  · 
 · 
holz.box

aspect,

i'm going out on a limb here and guessing that egypt is not far enough for these bigots, er i mean racists, er i mean clowns.

Aug 18, 10 1:00 am  · 
 · 
aspect

as we are all architects here, how come no one question that it all depends on how it looks?

Aug 18, 10 4:44 am  · 
 · 
randy1

the construction of this mosque is not about the muslim religion - it could be buddist, pentacostal, whatever - its america and the RIGHT to practice your faith. the area has its zoning in place - the use is allowed- so why do these fearful people out there oppose the thing? next thing thats going to happen , if the fear runs wild , is that you won't be able to build your temple of prayer in a location you want - when does end.

aspect, my original post states - from a city planning view - why is it a good decision to build this mosque at this location?

Aug 18, 10 8:25 am  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

ever since this building was destroyed...i've been worried about guys that look like this guy going into Federal buildings around the USA...

good on you zen for adding to the echo chamber and hypersensitivity of the radical, fundamentalist right wight fear choir.

Aug 18, 10 8:28 am  · 
 · 
farwest1

I wish that we could make the utter hypocrisy of the right wing a permanent theme. The Right has no values except to win--they are spineless and cynical, and don't even believe their own talking points. Their policies are highly unpopular, and yet they run on cynical, racist, xenophobic wedge issues in order to stir up the public. The Right's only values are these: white man first, rich man first. And god. And guns.

They say they absolutely support property rights, and yet they want to deny it in this case.

They say they are against gay rights, and yet they promote the idea of funding a gay bar at the site.

They say they are against deficits, until it turns out that the largest chunk of our deficits come from Bush's unpaid-for tax cuts. Then they are (apparently) for massive deficits.

They are against adultery, unless it involves some of their best and brightest politicians (Mark Sanford, Newt Gingrich, David Vitter, etc.)

They are pro-marriage, and yet the red states have the highest divorce rates by far.

They are against drugs, until one of their own bloated spokescreatures (Rush Limbaugh) is addicted to them.

The list goes on, and on and on......

Aug 18, 10 8:38 am  · 
 · 
med.

Americans need to also seriously stop pretending that WE have never gone into a country and killed 3000 civilians.

I'm sure that even if this "mega-mosque" was built in the upper west side or even Brooklyn some of these biggots would take issue just because it's in New York.

My fear if that if all these non-New Yorker right wing fundementalists in this country have their way with the Mosque issue, they will try to further it by banning th econstruction of mosques in America.

Aug 18, 10 10:36 am  · 
 · 
Allahtect

med. american only went into countries they intended to take over and killed 3000.

Aug 18, 10 10:37 am  · 
 · 
drums please, Fab?
cnn opinion poll

from august 11th

As you may know, a group of Muslims in the U.S. plan to build a mosque two blocks from the site in New York City where the World Trade Center used to stand. Do you favor or oppose this plan?

favor 29%
oppose 68%
no opinion 3%

democrat
favor 43%
oppose 54%
no opinion 3%

independent
favor 24%
oppose 70%
no opinion 6%

republican
favor 24%
oppose 82%
no opinion 1%

so a majority of democrats and large majority of independents oppose this plan. why y'all keep blaming 'right wing fundamentalists' and that they are just '... bigots, er i mean racists, er i mean clowns.'?

Aug 18, 10 11:13 am  · 
 · 
Distant Unicorn

So, republicans are 106% of their representation?

Invalid poll is invalid.

Aug 18, 10 11:23 am  · 
 · 

FRaC, I'm disheartened by those poll numbers.

That said, I think it's valid to state that right-wing pundits and extremists are to blame for fanning the flames of what should have been a small local issue. If this media frenzy hadn't happened, the mosque probably could have been built and 20 years from now no one would have noticed or cared.

And if the CNN poll question had been "Do you favor or oppose the rights of religious institutions in the US to build properties that meet local zoning laws?" the response would have been overwhelmingly in favor. The fact that the question refers to "a group of Muslims in the US" immediately sets up an idea of some "other" coming into our society. It's very biased.

Aug 18, 10 11:33 am  · 
 · 
JoeyD

You people just dont get it and never will. Freedom of religion is a wonderful thing, until it is abused or hijacked, as this Iman Feisal Abdul Rauf is doing.

He is a known radical hardliner with every bleeding heart liberal's nose firmly inserted into his ass.

Some of his better quotes," Osama bin Laden is made in the USA"

"The US and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end"

"West had to understand the terrorists' point of view"

"The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets"

This moron's book is double titled - in English its "Whats right with Islam", in his native langauge its, " The call from the rubble of the WTC" - so yeah, its just coincidense he wants to build it there.

I have a feeling this shit stain is going to have an "accident" Brooklyn style.

Aug 18, 10 11:36 am  · 
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Distant Unicorn

Of course, you completely skewed the poll results:

Percentages are IN FAVOR.

Only 12% of conservatives and 17% of republicans favor the mosque.

The people most against the mosque?

People ages 50+, 50-64 at 24% and 65+ at 18%.

People with no college education at 25%.

And people from rural areas at 21% and "The South" at 23%.

There's a correlation.

And just remember... only about 5-7% of the entire population of the US owned slaves between 1812-1865. Yet, those 5-7% produced about 50-60% of the wealth of the U.S. and their "lifestyle of cult" lead to the deaths of nearly 600,000 people with over 400,000 people seriously wounded during the civil war.

Small percentages, especially in the US, do matter.

How such a slim population duped half of America before Fox News remains a testament to their "human resource management" skills.

Oh wait, they dangled an American dream in front of them (landed class status) and told them hard work and being an observant protestant christian got them their wealth-- you know, not abusing millions of people and giving the natives syphilis.

LOL.

Aug 18, 10 11:41 am  · 
 · 
drums please, Fab?

AT Unicorn Ghost

my bad, republicans 17% oppose

valid poll is valid

Aug 18, 10 11:42 am  · 
 · 
Distant Unicorn

Donna, look at the actual poll numbers.

FRaC has creatively edited them to make them seem like they are more "fair and unbiased" when they really just show a trendy of disgusting soviet-era cronyism.

Aug 18, 10 11:45 am  · 
 · 
JoeyD

You might be a racists if you think our Liberal leaders are wasting
too much of our your hard earned money.
You may be a racist if you tell anyone about it.
You may be a racist if you think our Government is out of touch with the average American
You may be a racist if you want the people in Washington to just leave you alone .
You may be a racist if you think people should quit expecting
Handouts from Washington..
You may be a racist if you would like to pay less in taxes.
You may be a racist if you like your current health care plan.
You may be a racist if you don’t trust the Government.
You may be a racist if you didn’t vote for Barack Obama.
You may be a racist if you think the Cambridge police acted intelligently.

You may be a racist if you don’t believe the Government should have bailed out Wall Street, Detroit, and the banks.
You may be a racist if you believe that 40 million people added to a Government run health plan with the same amount of doctors is going to lead to rationing of health care.
You may be a racist if you think our country is already too deeply in debt .
You may be a racist if you think you can work hard to get ahead so you can keep your own money.
You may be a racist if you watch Fox News.

You may be a racist if you think it’s your choice whether you share your money with the poor or not.
You may be a racist if you feel we need less Government in our lives.
You may be a racist if you think ACORN is a corrupt organization.
You may be a racist if you think Reverend Wright’s sermons were hateful
You may be a racist if you think people from minorities can be racists.
You may be a racist if you think America is a Christian Nation.

You may be a racist if you think we should not be apologizing to the Middle East for anything.
You may be a racist if you are in the Tea Party.
You might be a racist if you can think for yourself.
You may be a racist if you believe in the American Dream.
You may be a racist if you believe in working for a living.
You may be a racist if you believe In God We Trust.
And you probably are a racist if you believe that people that believe this are racist.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41206.html#ixzz0wyNwKPzU

Aug 18, 10 11:47 am  · 
 · 

there is a mosque at ground zero already and has been there for 40 years.

this is from what i hear in the news not a mosque anyway but a community centre, with the basketballing and the teaching of cookery-ing, and such. supposed to be a prayer room on the top. which does not mean mosque.

so, not ground zero, and not a mosque.

and anyway, what the heck is it with the radical right wanting to strip all the constitutional rights from the constitution ? i always thought those were the bits that made america a pretty cool place.

i though bush was scary but things seem to be getting worse not better in the usa.

Aug 18, 10 11:49 am  · 
 · 
Distant Unicorn

Your post:
republican
favor 24%
oppose 82%
no opinion 1%

Real numbers
17%
82%
1%

How "24%" is a typo of "17%" is beyond me.

You also left out the conservative and liberal breakdown, age, income and education. Those figures part an unsavory picture of the "trend."

Also, young people 18-34 are not even represented within these polls.

Aug 18, 10 11:53 am  · 
 · 
farwest1

JoeyD,

Nice ridiculously uncritical and irrational poem. Essentially spells out the soundbite logic of the Tea Party, which is based on an utter lack of self-awareness.

Let me put it in clear terms for you: you are racist if you believe that certain people or races are better than others, or if you support a system of structural racism such as what we had in the old South, or if you create and/or propagate caricatures of people based on racist stereotypes. Or if, at public rallies, you hold up signs that promote caricatures of minorities based on stereotypes. Or if you promote profiling people by the police based on race (i.e. on stereotypes.) The list goes on.

None of the things you list are actually racist. And these are not the qualities that have caused many Americans to think that Tea Partiers are racist. It's the attributes and behaviors I list above that cause one to be labeled a racist.

Aug 18, 10 12:09 pm  · 
 · 

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