how far away from "ground zero" do muslims have to stay away - 5 blocks, 10 blocks - are qur'ans banned from "ground zero" - remember folks this is america!
donna, your thoughts regarding the power of architecture is so true. we only need to watch/read the news and see how ONE building has evoked such emotion from so many people. amazing. depending on building type - commercial gain & profits from architecture always happen. how we focus on this is flex-able and infinitely mobile. i am a chameleon - feed me the right juice and let me go.
randy I don't have time to post my own thoughts on hot-button building types right now, but are you familiar with the prison design boycott? It's the first thing I think of when the topic of questioning taking on a certain design job comes up.
Also usernametaken thank you for that long informative post about the political state of The Netherlands. In many ways it parallels the US, with a scared and detached rural population weighing perhaps too heavily on decisions made for the urban areas.
I can't really think of a good reason for legally stopping these people from building an as-of-right building on that site (I do find it amusing that the architect has chosen to remain anonymous, however).
I do personally feel that the developer is either suffering from bad judgement or has intended an intentional provocation. There is no Moslem community in that neighborhood of sufficient scale to merit a neighborhood mosque. It's not like waspy Battery Park City, Tribeca and Lower Greenwich Street are overstocked with any particular religious group other than perhaps those who worship (with their wallets and fashion sense) at the Church of Barneys. There is no other large cultural hub or center in that area. It's not convenient for daily worshippers from any other center, except for perhaps Jersey City. So why this location?
If they want to create underwtanding at the site of tragedy like 9/11, they should fund the creaton of a non-denominational interfaith center.
oh.. pedigreed dog worshippers. That's the other big religious community in my neighborhood (I live down there). Probably as large as the Barneys worshippers.
I dont know, this thing just makes lament for this country. Im not even that bothered a lot of conservatives are playing on peoples fears anymore, unfortunately ethnic fearmongering is something Ive come to expect from them. Whats worse is that it works, that Gingrich can liken muslims to nazis and 70% of the country agrees. This isnt like putting a swastika next to a Holocaust museum, its like putting a german community center 2 blocks away. Im proud Obama finally found the balls to do the right thing on this one, even Anthony Wiener standing hard on the the constitutional bright line. What sucks is that they will actually pay for it politically, that so many of their colleagues, Reid included, have succumb to cowardice. Feisal Rauf is a good man, and could have been a really important figure in easing all this bullshit, and its terrible to see him demonized like this.
Between Birtherism, the Tea Party Heathcare freakout, Shirley Sherrod, 14th amendment bullshit, I just hate to think of how history books will look back on this chapter of our history.
taking sunday off and this came to mind:
Design does not equal client work.
Its hard to make purple work in a design. The things your teachers tell you in class are not gospel.
You will get conflicting information. It means that both are wrong. Or both are true. This never stops. Most decisions are gray, and everything lives on a spectrum of correctness and suitability.
Look people in the eyes when you are talking, or listening to them. The best teachers are the ones who treat their classrooms like a workplace, and the worst ones are the ones who treat their classroom like a classroom as we've come to expect it. Eat breakfast. Realize that you are learning a trade, so craft matters more than most say. Realize that design is also a liberal art. Quiet is always an option, even if everyone is yelling. Libraries are a good place. The books are free there, and it smells great.
If you can't draw as well as someone else, or use the software as well, or if you do not have as much money to buy supplies, or if you do not have the access to the tools they have, beat them by being more thoughtful. Thoughtfulness is free and it burns on time and empathy.
The best communicators are gift givers.
Don't become dependent on having other people pull it out of you while you're in school. If you do, you're hosed once you graduate. Keep two books on your nightstand at all times: one fiction, one non-fiction.
Buy lightly used. Patina is pretty word, and a beautiful concept. Develop a point of view. Think about what experiences you have that many others do not. Then think of what experiences you have that almost everyone else has. Then, mix those two things and try to make someone cry or laugh or feel understood.
Design doesn't have to sell. Although, it usually does.
Think of every project as an opportunity to learn, but also an opportunity to teach. Univers is a great typeface and white usually works and grids are nice and usually necessary, but they are not a style. Take things away until you cry. Accept most things, and reject most of your initial ideas. Print it out, chop it up, put it back together. When you're aimlessly pushing things around on a computer screen, print it out and push it around in real space. Change contexts when you're stuck. Draw wrong handed and upside down and backwards. Find a good seat outside.
Design is just a language, its not a message. If you say "retro" too much you will get hives and maybe die. Learn your design history. Know that design changes when technology changes, and its been that way since the 1400s. Adobe software never stops being frustrating. Learn to write, and not school-style writing. A text editor is a perfectly viable design tool. Graphic design has as much to do with words as it does with pictures, and a lot of my favorite designers come to design from the world of words instead of the world of pictures.
If you meet a person who cares about the same things you do, hold onto them for dear life. Sympathy is medicine.
Scissors are good, music is better, and mixed drinks with friends are best. Start brave and brash: you can always make things more conservative, but its hard to make things more radical. Edit yourself, but let someone else censor you. When you ride a the bus, imagine that you are looking at everything from the point of view of someone on the ride. If you walk, look up on the way there and down on the way back. Aesthetics are fleeting, the only things with longevity are ideas. Read Bringhurst and one of those novels they made you read in high school cover to cover every few years. (Of Mice and Men, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Great Gatsby) Stop trying to be cool: it is stifling. Most important things happen at a table. Food, friends, discussion, ideas, work, peace talks, and war plans. It is okay to romanticize things a little bit every now and then: it gives you hope. Everything is interesting to someone. That thing that you think is bad is probably just not for you. Be wary of minimalism as an aesthetic decision without caause. Simple is almost a dirty word now. Almost. Tools don't matter very much, all you need is a sharp knife, but everyone has their own mise en place. If you need an analogy, use an animal. If you see a ladder in a piece of design or illustration, it means the deadline was short. Red, white, black, and gray always go together. Negative space. Size contrast. Directional contrast. Compositional foundations.
Success is generating an emotion. Failure is a million different things. Second-person writing is usually heavy handed, like all of this. Seeking advice is addicting and become a proxy for action. Giving it can also be addicting in a potentially pretentious, soul-rotting sort of way, and can replace experimenting because you think you know how things work. Be suspicious of lists, advice, and lists of advice.
Everyone is just making it up as they go along.
This about sums up everything I know.
If you agree with this statement then you agree with Rauf, the Iman of the mosque, ""We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al-Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non Muslims"
These are his words not mine. If you truly believe that this statement is not meant to incite, provoke or demean, then our differences are irreconcilable on the matter.
Invasion of other countries? Check. I mean the first time we did this, Canada whooped our ass.
Manipulating world markets purely to inflict suffering on ideological opponents? Check.
Using 'illegal' and 'unjustifiable' weapons on our enemies? Check.
Still engage in illegal torture? Check.
Have illegal international prisons? Check.
Preemptively attacking perceived enemies without a significant burden of proof? Check.
Meddling in the affairs of others for the specific goal of inflicting change ideology? Check.
Using embedded spies to conduct illegal business for the specific goal of causing geopolitical destabilization? Check.
Hum. Anyway you look at it, we're certainly not innocent on our part. Most countries aren't as innocent as they claim to be.
But don't get offended when someone calls us out on it. The U.S. lost its inherent value years ago... before most of us were even born. We're never getting it back either.
What keeps us in the land of Flavor Flav, Cheeseburgers and Strip Malls is our continued insanity to point nuclear warheads at every single place on the globe.
As long as we keep our bacon-grease covered palms above that shiny red launch button with a maniacal sparkle in our eye, the world will continue to starve itself for our pleasure.
But if you can't see or admit that we're functionally tyrants, then the attacks will only get worse and more prevalent.
The smartest thing we can do is throw the dog [everyone else in the world] a bone from time to time to keep them distracted long enough.
So, throw them a god damned bone already and apologize!
Unicorn needs that oil money and gasoline to go get his hooves did.
I guess my concern with the mosque is less with ideological content than with the (potential) use of urban form to score ideological points - something I oppose, from a basic civic-standards perspective. As I said, I don't think there's anyway for CB1 or other downtown groups to stop this project. I do think that the project politicizes space in the area needlessly.
btw, frankly, if I thought a Christian evangelical church or an ultra-orthodox jewish group wanted to use the same means to make the same point at the same spot in my neighborhood, I would object in the same way as I'm objecting here. I would ask, please voluntarily explain why you picked this particular location for your religious indoctrination center. If you can demonstrate a huge unmet in-neighborhod demand for your particular denomination's services at this particular (Tribeca) location, then I would wholeheartedly embrace your plans to build. If, however, no such demand exists, then I will have to presume your plans have ulterior motives that I personally would probably find quite reprehensible - that you should seek to project your ulterior motives in the manner you propose to do so.
None of this rises to a legal challenge of the "right" of any one group to be there. They have that right. I'm not arguing that point. I just would personally wish to point out their lack of tact and civic purpose in choosing to exercise that right, which is certainly well within my own First Amendment rights to do.
CB1 does not provide an estimate on individuals by religion, but suffice it so say there is no evidence whatsoever that there is an islamic residential community in that neighborhood at all. For example, of the foreign born population, no groups from primarily Moslem countries are represented at all at amounts greater than 1.5% (the threshhold of significance tracked by the city). I'm not say that Moslems have to come from primarily Moslem countries, I'm just pointing out that there is no evidence of such a neighborhood religious demographic in this area. Sure, there are a couple of Bangladeshi restaurants on West Broadway, but that's really it.
I look at it this way... fundamentally it would effect my life if they are denied the right to build this community center. If people are denied constitutional rights based on offending someone else, we are all in trouble.
point taken and I actually do agree with you - I would not like to see the right of these people to build there blocked for the same reasons. But not seeking to legally bar somebody from moving in does not mean that I want to see them there. I don't think I could personally welcome a neighbor whose sole practical intent may be to further polemicize the dialogue, since there is no particular demographic or coherent land-use reason for them to be there, at that particular location, if it was not for their ideological motivations over the site's symbolism. Like I said, I would be equally concerned if an evangelical Christian or ultra-Orthodox Jewish group wanted to be there, for the same reason (although there might actually be a reason for an ultra-Orthodox group to want to be there with a congregation, demographically speaking). I would even object to an atheist group that wanted to be there just to make a point about the perniciousness of religion.
For me it's not an academic issue.. I really do live 5 minutes walk away. A political statement - as opposed to a genuine Islamic cultural presence - which I would welcome - is simply not what the neighborhood needs.
urbanist- sems as if you are trying to hide your islamofobia and NIMBY-ism under one demographic aspect of the neighborhood.
1- Since when downtown New York was primarily a residential neighborhood?
2- This is not a neighborhood servicing community mosque. It is an umbrella organization for a greater perimeter in primarily business district.
"btw, frankly, if I thought a Christian evangelical church or an ultra-orthodox jewish group wanted to use the same means to make the same point at the same spot in my neighborhood, I would object in the same way as I'm objecting here."
After reading your post (s), Don't lie! You wouldn't. I am saying these to you because you are already pre-judged the proposed center and conveniently equated it with a Christian evangelical church or an ultra-orthodox jewish group.
let's at least try to be a little diplomatic here.
And I'm not lying. In fact, the presence of a Christian evangelical center there WOULD get me out to protest, whilst I would object less to an Islamic or Jewish one and probably stay quiet about it, at least in the neighborhood. I've made no secret of the way I feel about Christian fundies exploting 9/11 here, as a Christian. It's disgraceful.
As to your other points, then it's not functioning as a mosque.. it's functioning as a cultural center. Call it what it is then.. and my guess is most of the community opposition would disappear.
btw, it's not in the Downtown financial district.. you may wish to check your geography. It's at 51 Park Place. That's the corner of West Broadway and Park Place. The street to the south is Barclay St, to the north is Murray. That's Tribeca, the last time I looked at a map. It's neighbors will be the Amish Market, Whole Foods and Bed Bath and Beyond and PS 234 (the one with the brass frogs outside). FYI, the Downtown business district begins at Vesey Street, further southward. This'll sound nitpicky to non-New Yorkers, but people familiar with the area will know that there's a difference between Tribeca and the downtown BD, notwithstanding that the Bank of NY got permission to build their backoffice off Murray St in the 1990s - something many people weren't that happy about.
actually.. I take both my posts back and withdraw my objections to the mosque aspects of the Cordoba center.
somebody just pointed out to me that the mosque component (as opposed tothe cultural center component) of this facility IS designed specifically to replace an existing Tribeca community mosque, located in a residential area 12 blocks north, Masjid al-Farah, which is set for closure in 2012
This project is justified as a community facility.
Urbanist, regarding the specificity of the center to that particular block, I believe there is an existing mosque either there, or a block up on Murray... somewhere within the area, and certainly within the "hallowed" radius of the WTC.
Regardless, I recall seeing a number of people praying there at lunch time on weekdays. It seemed more oriented to office workers, taxi drivers and the like, rather than the local residents.
yes blanco,it looks like it's replacing a real mosque, a few blocks further north in Tribeca.. which is why I've withdrawn my reservations. Please ignore whatever I said above. I clearly did not have all of the facts.
I think it's important to note that one can expect Tribeca - even southern Tribeca - to object to any de facto attempt to expand the downtown CBD into its boundaries or for downtown to start annexing aprt of it. As such, this center isn't really part of downtown at all, except in the minds of the WTC advocates opposing it. It's squarely in this neighborhood, and it replaces an existing community facility. It's proximity to the WTC is relevant only for the interfaith cultural center aspect of it, and not the community worship function.... and that aspect of it should probably be considered incidental.
Frankly, I can't think of anybody on or even near Murray St who thinks they're part of the Wall Street downtown financial district.
This comment of mine here is pointless. I really just wanted to say that I'm writing this sitting in a sushi bar on west broadway, not 80 feet from the mosque site ;-)
nice work people. good posts. its amazing to me how one building has politically charged people, how fear drives people to levels of bias, hatred, down - right false statements, and backward thinking. just think how this nation would be - if mobocracy ruled!
think: jim crow & the murders of: mlk, jfk, & rfk,
the demographics, socio-political-economic-all point to the community center's proposed site location, location, location to be within proper design/planning perimeters. however thoughtful the anti people want to be - there comes a time when timing is just not on-point. who protests the strip joints just a few feet from "hallowed ground". who protests all the gin mills next door.
i still find the attacks on MY city yet to be settled, but how do we bridge the gap between the extremists and law abiding peoples. one way is to be reasonable with the norm. to allow some who need space to position themselves the opportunity to "bridge the gap" a chance to do so. if the center is moved the extremists have won again! if the center is built - then our democratic rights have been upheld.
what choices do we have as design professionals looking at the program from all sides - the good - bad - ugly? the ugly side raises its head and questions the funding, location, and the leaders choice of timing. the bad switches sides as fast as a tennis match. and the good is made out to be sympathizers of those who took the buildings down. how do you win here? i see no winners at this point - perhaps with any luck - the constitution? remember that piece of paper? if the terrorists are to win their battle with the infidels - all they need to do is watch how the bigots of this nation respond.
if the republicans want to win in '12 then my suggestion to them - nominate the palin - lazio ticket!
A drunk barged into a Queens mosque last night and urinated on prayer rugs, cops and witnesses said.
Evening prayers were disrupted at the Iman Mosque on Steinway Street in Astoria when the unhinged man "came in with a beer bottle in his hands, clearly very intoxicated," said Mustapha Sadouki, who was attending services.
"He fumbled over to our rugs where people were praying" and then committed the despicable desecration, Sadouki said.
in answer to somebody's question earlier in this thread about the urban planning appropriateness of the project, it is by defintion appropriate given that it is an AoR project. Moreoever, a mosque specifcally replacing an existing facility in the same neighborhood would be considered a beneficial community facility on any normative definition of that concept. In fact, in many land use control systems, getting rid of a fully utilized religious facility by not allowing it to be replaced should have created controversy, not the proposal to replace it!
I should add that due to threats the site is cordoned off behind a barricade from the Amish Market eastward, to midblock... which is really sad if you think about it. Get over it, haters. This is in Tribeca, not the WTC site. it's replacing an existing mosque whose worship community is an integral part of it's neighborhood. Everything else is disinformation.
mosque
how far away from "ground zero" do muslims have to stay away - 5 blocks, 10 blocks - are qur'ans banned from "ground zero" - remember folks this is america!
donna, your thoughts regarding the power of architecture is so true. we only need to watch/read the news and see how ONE building has evoked such emotion from so many people. amazing. depending on building type - commercial gain & profits from architecture always happen. how we focus on this is flex-able and infinitely mobile. i am a chameleon - feed me the right juice and let me go.
great blogo on topics: http://daryllang.com/blog/4421
randy I don't have time to post my own thoughts on hot-button building types right now, but are you familiar with the prison design boycott? It's the first thing I think of when the topic of questioning taking on a certain design job comes up.
Also usernametaken thank you for that long informative post about the political state of The Netherlands. In many ways it parallels the US, with a scared and detached rural population weighing perhaps too heavily on decisions made for the urban areas.
@usernametaken
thanks for that great perspective/update on the state of immigration/integration in Netherlands.....
I FORGOT HOW MUCH PEOPLE ON THIS SITE
LOVE TO CONGRATULATE EACH OTHER'S POSTS
I FORGOT HOW MUCH PEOPLE ON THIS SITE
LOVE TO CONGRATULATE EACH OTHER'S POSTS
Thank you for that honest post, 1d2d3d4d!
I can't really think of a good reason for legally stopping these people from building an as-of-right building on that site (I do find it amusing that the architect has chosen to remain anonymous, however).
I do personally feel that the developer is either suffering from bad judgement or has intended an intentional provocation. There is no Moslem community in that neighborhood of sufficient scale to merit a neighborhood mosque. It's not like waspy Battery Park City, Tribeca and Lower Greenwich Street are overstocked with any particular religious group other than perhaps those who worship (with their wallets and fashion sense) at the Church of Barneys. There is no other large cultural hub or center in that area. It's not convenient for daily worshippers from any other center, except for perhaps Jersey City. So why this location?
If they want to create underwtanding at the site of tragedy like 9/11, they should fund the creaton of a non-denominational interfaith center.
oh.. pedigreed dog worshippers. That's the other big religious community in my neighborhood (I live down there). Probably as large as the Barneys worshippers.
I dont know, this thing just makes lament for this country. Im not even that bothered a lot of conservatives are playing on peoples fears anymore, unfortunately ethnic fearmongering is something Ive come to expect from them. Whats worse is that it works, that Gingrich can liken muslims to nazis and 70% of the country agrees. This isnt like putting a swastika next to a Holocaust museum, its like putting a german community center 2 blocks away. Im proud Obama finally found the balls to do the right thing on this one, even Anthony Wiener standing hard on the the constitutional bright line. What sucks is that they will actually pay for it politically, that so many of their colleagues, Reid included, have succumb to cowardice. Feisal Rauf is a good man, and could have been a really important figure in easing all this bullshit, and its terrible to see him demonized like this.
Between Birtherism, the Tea Party Heathcare freakout, Shirley Sherrod, 14th amendment bullshit, I just hate to think of how history books will look back on this chapter of our history.
taking sunday off and this came to mind:
Design does not equal client work.
Its hard to make purple work in a design. The things your teachers tell you in class are not gospel.
You will get conflicting information. It means that both are wrong. Or both are true. This never stops. Most decisions are gray, and everything lives on a spectrum of correctness and suitability.
Look people in the eyes when you are talking, or listening to them. The best teachers are the ones who treat their classrooms like a workplace, and the worst ones are the ones who treat their classroom like a classroom as we've come to expect it. Eat breakfast. Realize that you are learning a trade, so craft matters more than most say. Realize that design is also a liberal art. Quiet is always an option, even if everyone is yelling. Libraries are a good place. The books are free there, and it smells great.
If you can't draw as well as someone else, or use the software as well, or if you do not have as much money to buy supplies, or if you do not have the access to the tools they have, beat them by being more thoughtful. Thoughtfulness is free and it burns on time and empathy.
The best communicators are gift givers.
Don't become dependent on having other people pull it out of you while you're in school. If you do, you're hosed once you graduate. Keep two books on your nightstand at all times: one fiction, one non-fiction.
Buy lightly used. Patina is pretty word, and a beautiful concept. Develop a point of view. Think about what experiences you have that many others do not. Then think of what experiences you have that almost everyone else has. Then, mix those two things and try to make someone cry or laugh or feel understood.
Design doesn't have to sell. Although, it usually does.
Think of every project as an opportunity to learn, but also an opportunity to teach. Univers is a great typeface and white usually works and grids are nice and usually necessary, but they are not a style. Take things away until you cry. Accept most things, and reject most of your initial ideas. Print it out, chop it up, put it back together. When you're aimlessly pushing things around on a computer screen, print it out and push it around in real space. Change contexts when you're stuck. Draw wrong handed and upside down and backwards. Find a good seat outside.
Design is just a language, its not a message. If you say "retro" too much you will get hives and maybe die. Learn your design history. Know that design changes when technology changes, and its been that way since the 1400s. Adobe software never stops being frustrating. Learn to write, and not school-style writing. A text editor is a perfectly viable design tool. Graphic design has as much to do with words as it does with pictures, and a lot of my favorite designers come to design from the world of words instead of the world of pictures.
If you meet a person who cares about the same things you do, hold onto them for dear life. Sympathy is medicine.
Scissors are good, music is better, and mixed drinks with friends are best. Start brave and brash: you can always make things more conservative, but its hard to make things more radical. Edit yourself, but let someone else censor you. When you ride a the bus, imagine that you are looking at everything from the point of view of someone on the ride. If you walk, look up on the way there and down on the way back. Aesthetics are fleeting, the only things with longevity are ideas. Read Bringhurst and one of those novels they made you read in high school cover to cover every few years. (Of Mice and Men, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Great Gatsby) Stop trying to be cool: it is stifling. Most important things happen at a table. Food, friends, discussion, ideas, work, peace talks, and war plans. It is okay to romanticize things a little bit every now and then: it gives you hope. Everything is interesting to someone. That thing that you think is bad is probably just not for you. Be wary of minimalism as an aesthetic decision without caause. Simple is almost a dirty word now. Almost. Tools don't matter very much, all you need is a sharp knife, but everyone has their own mise en place. If you need an analogy, use an animal. If you see a ladder in a piece of design or illustration, it means the deadline was short. Red, white, black, and gray always go together. Negative space. Size contrast. Directional contrast. Compositional foundations.
Success is generating an emotion. Failure is a million different things. Second-person writing is usually heavy handed, like all of this. Seeking advice is addicting and become a proxy for action. Giving it can also be addicting in a potentially pretentious, soul-rotting sort of way, and can replace experimenting because you think you know how things work. Be suspicious of lists, advice, and lists of advice.
Everyone is just making it up as they go along.
This about sums up everything I know.
If you agree with this statement then you agree with Rauf, the Iman of the mosque, ""We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al-Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non Muslims"
These are his words not mine. If you truly believe that this statement is not meant to incite, provoke or demean, then our differences are irreconcilable on the matter.
@Joey
Even if his statement is factually correct???
Look, joey. Were not going to have your jolly little race war or whatever. So fucking can it.
I'll take that as a vote for the "I agree America is a terrorist organisation" camp OE. Not surprising
if terrorism defined by the US = US Definition of Terrorism then, yes.
LOL. America is a terrorist organization.
We've been terrorists since 1776.
Guerrilla-style warfare? Check.
Invasion of other countries? Check. I mean the first time we did this, Canada whooped our ass.
Manipulating world markets purely to inflict suffering on ideological opponents? Check.
Using 'illegal' and 'unjustifiable' weapons on our enemies? Check.
Still engage in illegal torture? Check.
Have illegal international prisons? Check.
Preemptively attacking perceived enemies without a significant burden of proof? Check.
Meddling in the affairs of others for the specific goal of inflicting change ideology? Check.
Using embedded spies to conduct illegal business for the specific goal of causing geopolitical destabilization? Check.
Hum. Anyway you look at it, we're certainly not innocent on our part. Most countries aren't as innocent as they claim to be.
But don't get offended when someone calls us out on it. The U.S. lost its inherent value years ago... before most of us were even born. We're never getting it back either.
What keeps us in the land of Flavor Flav, Cheeseburgers and Strip Malls is our continued insanity to point nuclear warheads at every single place on the globe.
As long as we keep our bacon-grease covered palms above that shiny red launch button with a maniacal sparkle in our eye, the world will continue to starve itself for our pleasure.
But if you can't see or admit that we're functionally tyrants, then the attacks will only get worse and more prevalent.
The smartest thing we can do is throw the dog [everyone else in the world] a bone from time to time to keep them distracted long enough.
So, throw them a god damned bone already and apologize!
Unicorn needs that oil money and gasoline to go get his hooves did.
I guess my concern with the mosque is less with ideological content than with the (potential) use of urban form to score ideological points - something I oppose, from a basic civic-standards perspective. As I said, I don't think there's anyway for CB1 or other downtown groups to stop this project. I do think that the project politicizes space in the area needlessly.
btw, frankly, if I thought a Christian evangelical church or an ultra-orthodox jewish group wanted to use the same means to make the same point at the same spot in my neighborhood, I would object in the same way as I'm objecting here. I would ask, please voluntarily explain why you picked this particular location for your religious indoctrination center. If you can demonstrate a huge unmet in-neighborhod demand for your particular denomination's services at this particular (Tribeca) location, then I would wholeheartedly embrace your plans to build. If, however, no such demand exists, then I will have to presume your plans have ulterior motives that I personally would probably find quite reprehensible - that you should seek to project your ulterior motives in the manner you propose to do so.
None of this rises to a legal challenge of the "right" of any one group to be there. They have that right. I'm not arguing that point. I just would personally wish to point out their lack of tact and civic purpose in choosing to exercise that right, which is certainly well within my own First Amendment rights to do.
Detailed demographic and land-use info on CB1 may be found here: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/lucds/mn1profile.pdf
CB1 does not provide an estimate on individuals by religion, but suffice it so say there is no evidence whatsoever that there is an islamic residential community in that neighborhood at all. For example, of the foreign born population, no groups from primarily Moslem countries are represented at all at amounts greater than 1.5% (the threshhold of significance tracked by the city). I'm not say that Moslems have to come from primarily Moslem countries, I'm just pointing out that there is no evidence of such a neighborhood religious demographic in this area. Sure, there are a couple of Bangladeshi restaurants on West Broadway, but that's really it.
I look at it this way... fundamentally it would effect my life if they are denied the right to build this community center. If people are denied constitutional rights based on offending someone else, we are all in trouble.
point taken and I actually do agree with you - I would not like to see the right of these people to build there blocked for the same reasons. But not seeking to legally bar somebody from moving in does not mean that I want to see them there. I don't think I could personally welcome a neighbor whose sole practical intent may be to further polemicize the dialogue, since there is no particular demographic or coherent land-use reason for them to be there, at that particular location, if it was not for their ideological motivations over the site's symbolism. Like I said, I would be equally concerned if an evangelical Christian or ultra-Orthodox Jewish group wanted to be there, for the same reason (although there might actually be a reason for an ultra-Orthodox group to want to be there with a congregation, demographically speaking). I would even object to an atheist group that wanted to be there just to make a point about the perniciousness of religion.
For me it's not an academic issue.. I really do live 5 minutes walk away. A political statement - as opposed to a genuine Islamic cultural presence - which I would welcome - is simply not what the neighborhood needs.
urbanist- sems as if you are trying to hide your islamofobia and NIMBY-ism under one demographic aspect of the neighborhood.
1- Since when downtown New York was primarily a residential neighborhood?
2- This is not a neighborhood servicing community mosque. It is an umbrella organization for a greater perimeter in primarily business district.
"btw, frankly, if I thought a Christian evangelical church or an ultra-orthodox jewish group wanted to use the same means to make the same point at the same spot in my neighborhood, I would object in the same way as I'm objecting here."
After reading your post (s), Don't lie! You wouldn't. I am saying these to you because you are already pre-judged the proposed center and conveniently equated it with a Christian evangelical church or an ultra-orthodox jewish group.
You are full of shit sir!
let's at least try to be a little diplomatic here.
And I'm not lying. In fact, the presence of a Christian evangelical center there WOULD get me out to protest, whilst I would object less to an Islamic or Jewish one and probably stay quiet about it, at least in the neighborhood. I've made no secret of the way I feel about Christian fundies exploting 9/11 here, as a Christian. It's disgraceful.
As to your other points, then it's not functioning as a mosque.. it's functioning as a cultural center. Call it what it is then.. and my guess is most of the community opposition would disappear.
btw, it's not in the Downtown financial district.. you may wish to check your geography. It's at 51 Park Place. That's the corner of West Broadway and Park Place. The street to the south is Barclay St, to the north is Murray. That's Tribeca, the last time I looked at a map. It's neighbors will be the Amish Market, Whole Foods and Bed Bath and Beyond and PS 234 (the one with the brass frogs outside). FYI, the Downtown business district begins at Vesey Street, further southward. This'll sound nitpicky to non-New Yorkers, but people familiar with the area will know that there's a difference between Tribeca and the downtown BD, notwithstanding that the Bank of NY got permission to build their backoffice off Murray St in the 1990s - something many people weren't that happy about.
actually.. I take both my posts back and withdraw my objections to the mosque aspects of the Cordoba center.
somebody just pointed out to me that the mosque component (as opposed tothe cultural center component) of this facility IS designed specifically to replace an existing Tribeca community mosque, located in a residential area 12 blocks north, Masjid al-Farah, which is set for closure in 2012
This project is justified as a community facility.
I dont know if you guys were watching but the daily show bagged Fox so hard last night.
Urbanist, regarding the specificity of the center to that particular block, I believe there is an existing mosque either there, or a block up on Murray... somewhere within the area, and certainly within the "hallowed" radius of the WTC.
Regardless, I recall seeing a number of people praying there at lunch time on weekdays. It seemed more oriented to office workers, taxi drivers and the like, rather than the local residents.
yes blanco,it looks like it's replacing a real mosque, a few blocks further north in Tribeca.. which is why I've withdrawn my reservations. Please ignore whatever I said above. I clearly did not have all of the facts.
I think it's important to note that one can expect Tribeca - even southern Tribeca - to object to any de facto attempt to expand the downtown CBD into its boundaries or for downtown to start annexing aprt of it. As such, this center isn't really part of downtown at all, except in the minds of the WTC advocates opposing it. It's squarely in this neighborhood, and it replaces an existing community facility. It's proximity to the WTC is relevant only for the interfaith cultural center aspect of it, and not the community worship function.... and that aspect of it should probably be considered incidental.
Frankly, I can't think of anybody on or even near Murray St who thinks they're part of the Wall Street downtown financial district.
hey guys at least the mosque will be LEED CERTIFIED yay allahu akbar!!
This comment of mine here is pointless. I really just wanted to say that I'm writing this sitting in a sushi bar on west broadway, not 80 feet from the mosque site ;-)
whitey no likey mosquey
nice work people. good posts. its amazing to me how one building has politically charged people, how fear drives people to levels of bias, hatred, down - right false statements, and backward thinking. just think how this nation would be - if mobocracy ruled!
think: jim crow & the murders of: mlk, jfk, & rfk,
the demographics, socio-political-economic-all point to the community center's proposed site location, location, location to be within proper design/planning perimeters. however thoughtful the anti people want to be - there comes a time when timing is just not on-point. who protests the strip joints just a few feet from "hallowed ground". who protests all the gin mills next door.
i still find the attacks on MY city yet to be settled, but how do we bridge the gap between the extremists and law abiding peoples. one way is to be reasonable with the norm. to allow some who need space to position themselves the opportunity to "bridge the gap" a chance to do so. if the center is moved the extremists have won again! if the center is built - then our democratic rights have been upheld.
what choices do we have as design professionals looking at the program from all sides - the good - bad - ugly? the ugly side raises its head and questions the funding, location, and the leaders choice of timing. the bad switches sides as fast as a tennis match. and the good is made out to be sympathizers of those who took the buildings down. how do you win here? i see no winners at this point - perhaps with any luck - the constitution? remember that piece of paper? if the terrorists are to win their battle with the infidels - all they need to do is watch how the bigots of this nation respond.
if the republicans want to win in '12 then my suggestion to them - nominate the palin - lazio ticket!
The Imam wants to poke you in the eye. And you let him.
A drunk barged into a Queens mosque last night and urinated on prayer rugs, cops and witnesses said.
Evening prayers were disrupted at the Iman Mosque on Steinway Street in Astoria when the unhinged man "came in with a beer bottle in his hands, clearly very intoxicated," said Mustapha Sadouki, who was attending services.
"He fumbled over to our rugs where people were praying" and then committed the despicable desecration, Sadouki said.
Awesome - we need more of this direct approach, less of this pansy ass political correctness bs
'Everytime a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the person'
New Images or the Islamic Center + Interview with the Architect.
http://archrecord.construction.com/news/newsmakers/1010Michel_Abboud.asp
i just thought the jews in new york had more money and especially more balls to prevent this entire conversation...guess not
in answer to somebody's question earlier in this thread about the urban planning appropriateness of the project, it is by defintion appropriate given that it is an AoR project. Moreoever, a mosque specifcally replacing an existing facility in the same neighborhood would be considered a beneficial community facility on any normative definition of that concept. In fact, in many land use control systems, getting rid of a fully utilized religious facility by not allowing it to be replaced should have created controversy, not the proposal to replace it!
I should add that due to threats the site is cordoned off behind a barricade from the Amish Market eastward, to midblock... which is really sad if you think about it. Get over it, haters. This is in Tribeca, not the WTC site. it's replacing an existing mosque whose worship community is an integral part of it's neighborhood. Everything else is disinformation.
actually, scratch that. The barricade is down but there's still a squad car parked in front. I guess no teabagger threatened to blow it up this week.
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