Not that my outrage matters. I'm sure these gentlemen are very happy with their home, and they've worked hard on it, so good for them. A for effort. The one guy says he's an architecture buff; I'm a "make snotty comments about architecture buffs' design sensibilities" buff. It's one of my favorite things to do.
Donna, there are two kinds of mortared stonework, the dry stack style, which mimics no mortar all as the mortar is at the back side of the stone, and the jointed style, which has the mortar visible. If the mortar is visible the mortar lines may be flush with the stone face, or protruding (the rope style often seen on older buildings and walls) or recessed. The mortar work shown is clearly of the jointed style with recessed lines of mortar and is quite common.
Congrats on a fantastic mansplain, Volunteer! I know nothing at all about dry stack masonry, you see, even after doing a two-day long workshop taught by a Master Stone Mason at Shakertown Pleasant Hill. <severe eye roll>
We do a ton of stone here at my firm. Most of it though is a cut veneer and copings, so it installs more like a panel system using steel clips. We've also done load bearing stone, set boulders, created walls that look like grouted rubble foundations, etc. Tons of site stone, particularly slab steps and stacked walls. There has also been formal sculpted stone blocks and 'entourage' like you'd see on historic things.
i like stone. a GC showed me today a brick veneer that was slices of brick adhered to green board with real mortar between. basically looked real. the slices appeared to be about 1/2" thick.
1/2" thick brick that "basically looks real" But it doesn't if you know what you're looking at. I can *always* tell the fake from the real if I can get close enough.
We could have a very long OR a very short discussion, curtkram, over whether or not 1/2" brick is "real" brick.
If the difference is how the load is transferred then that's the end of the discussion: brick is load-bearing masonry. If it's glued to another vertical surface it's not *really* load bearing.
So, Donna, full-sized bricks used in a brick veneer over a backup stud wall and attached with brick ties and shelf angles (and all that other stuff that goes into it) is not "real" brick because it isn't load bearing?
^^^Yes- I concur with Donna. You have the following;
Real Brick (can I TM that?)
brick veneer (brick over back up wall, of any kind - particularly when you turn the corner and the single wythe is exposed)
brick tile
Garden State Brick Face & Stucco (or similar. The main building at Hershey Park, utilizes a stencil system, where different color stucco materials are troweled on, with a tiny amount of relief)
Just curious for a show of hands ... a TC straw poll of sorts:
Who has designed a project with Real Brick (TM)? What was the project, where is it located, and when was it done?
Edit: for clarification ... I'm not asking for any load-bearing masonry (don't count your CMU buildings), and I'm not asking for renovations to an existing brick building ... only count new construction using Real Brick (TM)
After living in places with real, old, structural brick buildings, any new building with brick cladding looks fake to me. It's a veneer, full dimension or not.
Wood veneer is real wood, peeled or sliced from a log. If sliced ("flitch sawn") and well detailed, it can look like solid wood. Veneer that is rotary cut, like most plywood, has distorted grain and looks odd as a finished surface.
Everyday Intern, that's a brick veneer wall composed of real bricks. And they *are* gravity load bearing - even though in addition they are stabilized by tiebacks, the main force holding them in place is the gravity load.
Brick tile is glued to a substrate - the gravity loads are secondary to the adhesive connection.
How about this: you can magically turn brick tile into Real Brick by stacking it up like slices of sandwich bread, with mortar smeared on like peanut butter. The orientation of mass being horizontal not vertical changes its True Material Nature (TM).
"What do you want to be, flat pancake-ish brick-colored clay unit?" "I like a Short Stack."
I consider brick real brick when the brick are of nominal sizes customarily used for load bearing even when the brick is not used in a load-bearing application but load bearing brick walls are typically 2 or more wythes thick.
When the brick is merely a 1/2" width (being a 1/2" wythe, it would be more a tile than solid masonry as a structural system).
There is some degree of reference to what defines a brick as a brick from a tile or a block.
^ I thought the difference between brick and block is that a block requires two hands to lift and place where a single hand can do the job when using bricks.
Donna seems to allow brick veneer to be Real Brick (TM) because the bricks are stacked (despite a shelf angle being the structural support that carries the gravity load).
Its at least "real" in that its honest about what it is.
To the earlier question; I have used "Real Brick TM" only once in my career and that was for the home of a mason; we did a triple wythe wall that introduced the brick finish at the interior.
Pretty much every single project I've worked on has real brick. Even done multiple load bearing brick buildings using structural bricks (basically a lot like cmu, just brick material in a shorter module). Even done 1 structural ceramic brick... sort of like this (green glazed too).
Why you might use lick and stick is because that is not required to be supported by steel or masonry. So you can put it on stick framing or in situations where real masonry or stone can't be used. Btw; I did just use 3/4" stone faces (stone type tile) on a project to clad the chimney.. also used hollowed out stone in some areas where weight was an issue or like a folly I also just did, to allow for radiant heat coils in the natural stone bench so your bum don't get cold and overheat radiant heat is just so .... cheap looking.
Here's a real project we just finished cd's on:
True brick veneer, air space, insulation, air barrier, mtl stud, precast structure. Black brick are normans, red just got ve'd to modular. There are soldier and sailor coarses in there too as well as cut limestone copings and sills plus black granite stones at the base.
Project was from the early 2000, located in southern NJ, zone 4 (?)
I just pulled up the drawings; It was a great room wall with a massive masonry fireplace flanked by double windows on each side and then a tiny segment of full height wall on both ends. It was basically one giant wall with an R Value of 3 and lots of thermal bridging...
obviously, I'm not counting veneer walls with backup wall.
Aug 11, 16 4:36 pm ·
·
^ I thought the difference between brick and block is that a block requires two hands to lift and place where a single hand can do the job when using bricks.
^ I thought the difference between brick and block is that a block requires two hands to lift and place where a single hand can do the job when using bricks.
Maybe.
It's the material and fabrication process. Brick is more of a fired clay product, block is more of a concrete mix product.
Aug 11, 16 5:37 pm ·
·
mightyaa,
It's the material and fabrication process. Brick is more of a fired clay product, block is more of a concrete mix product.
Study up on your historic building materials. Block wasn't always referred to concrete mix product. Bricks were typically masonry units that were less than 12" in length and were less than 6" in the other dimensions. These units would typically fit in the palm of the hands. blocks were typically larger masonry units. While brick is typically a product that was a clay product that was fired in a kiln, they were also dimensionally smaller in order to be easily placed by a brick mason often to be able to be held with one hand. Blocks were a age old term from the days of stone masonry so the term blocks were used for any masonry that would be around the sizes of stone masonry units even if the material used is fired clay, stone, or even concrete products. Brick refers to masonry units on the size range typically used in clay bricks.
With a rock cutter, I can make basalt bricks without much trouble out of larger blocks of stone.
Aug 11, 16 6:00 pm ·
·
Industry tradition is a brick is a masonry unit that a brick layer/mason would be able to hold in one hand and with the other hand use the trowel. Blocks are typically referred to larger units. Weight is typically associated given the typical material but some materials have extreme material weight density like Gold so even one gold brick may actually take two hands to hold. On the other hand a typical brick made of typical materials would usually not way so much that an average brick mason / brick layer would not be able to hold with one hand.
Over time, a rough geometric parameter has been established to denote the line between the use of the term brick vs block is used.
For once can you not try to be Mr. Wikipedia and act normal? You're in a forum where there are a ton of architects with more experience than you after all. Have you ever laid a brick outside of a toilet?
On another note, I'm going to have 60 hours by time I leave tonight. All I do is architecture.
Aug 11, 16 6:19 pm ·
·
For me, there is somewhat a volume parameter.
12" x 6" x 6" is by volume benchmark. That's 432 sq.inches.
Some bricks could be 14" or even 16" long but the other dimensions would likely have to be reduced.
I also have a somewhat a minimum wythe dimension parameter. The wythe may not be less than 2" in thickness (not height or length but thickness as part of wall thickness calculation).
Less than 2" and I lean toward referring to the material as a veneer tile such as a wall tile than as a brick.
While the rules are not absolutely hard line but when the masonry's wythe thickness is 1" or less.... its probably a veneer without a doubt in my opinion.
EI - only in restoration work Real Brick (TM). I run across a lot of bricks that are 2 2/3" high with 1/3" mortar, these are extremely annoying dimensions when working in inches.
Thread Central
Not that my outrage matters. I'm sure these gentlemen are very happy with their home, and they've worked hard on it, so good for them. A for effort. The one guy says he's an architecture buff; I'm a "make snotty comments about architecture buffs' design sensibilities" buff. It's one of my favorite things to do.
Donna, there are two kinds of mortared stonework, the dry stack style, which mimics no mortar all as the mortar is at the back side of the stone, and the jointed style, which has the mortar visible. If the mortar is visible the mortar lines may be flush with the stone face, or protruding (the rope style often seen on older buildings and walls) or recessed. The mortar work shown is clearly of the jointed style with recessed lines of mortar and is quite common.
Congrats on a fantastic mansplain, Volunteer! I know nothing at all about dry stack masonry, you see, even after doing a two-day long workshop taught by a Master Stone Mason at Shakertown Pleasant Hill. <severe eye roll>
Below is a mortared wall with dry-stacked look. mortar is on back face of stones
Below is a dry-stacked stone wall. no mortar at all.
Below is standard mortared stone wall with recessed mortar line - just like the craftsman house.
The original dry-stack stone.
+1 archanonymous, for the win
I bet there is a statistical correlation between mainsplaining and manspreading.
Also, that's some sexy stone. I'd want to touch it.
No especially important, but Andy is a girl, before the article came out I thought I had heard her wrong and that her name was Angie.
josh mings, as long as you manscape...
We do a ton of stone here at my firm. Most of it though is a cut veneer and copings, so it installs more like a panel system using steel clips. We've also done load bearing stone, set boulders, created walls that look like grouted rubble foundations, etc. Tons of site stone, particularly slab steps and stacked walls. There has also been formal sculpted stone blocks and 'entourage' like you'd see on historic things.
Sort of a aesthetic fetish of the principal.
i like stone. a GC showed me today a brick veneer that was slices of brick adhered to green board with real mortar between. basically looked real. the slices appeared to be about 1/2" thick.
I love real stone, but a little part of me dies each time I have to detail that Arriscraft cast stone crap or something like it.
i hate photos on canvas. hate.
1/2" thick brick that "basically looks real" But it doesn't if you know what you're looking at. I can *always* tell the fake from the real if I can get close enough.
it's real brick, just thinner. the difference is pretty much just how the load is transferred, and how far out it sits from the sheathing.
We could have a very long OR a very short discussion, curtkram, over whether or not 1/2" brick is "real" brick.
If the difference is how the load is transferred then that's the end of the discussion: brick is load-bearing masonry. If it's glued to another vertical surface it's not *really* load bearing.
IMO it's brick tile.
It's a brick tile, or more commonly referred to as "lick & stick".
So, Donna, full-sized bricks used in a brick veneer over a backup stud wall and attached with brick ties and shelf angles (and all that other stuff that goes into it) is not "real" brick because it isn't load bearing?
^^^Yes- I concur with Donna. You have the following;
Real Brick (can I TM that?)
brick veneer (brick over back up wall, of any kind - particularly when you turn the corner and the single wythe is exposed)
brick tile
Garden State Brick Face & Stucco (or similar. The main building at Hershey Park, utilizes a stencil system, where different color stucco materials are troweled on, with a tiny amount of relief)
Is wood veneer real wood? What do you want, Brick!!!!
Just curious for a show of hands ... a TC straw poll of sorts:
Edit: for clarification ... I'm not asking for any load-bearing masonry (don't count your CMU buildings), and I'm not asking for renovations to an existing brick building ... only count new construction using Real Brick (TM)
After living in places with real, old, structural brick buildings, any new building with brick cladding looks fake to me. It's a veneer, full dimension or not.
Wood veneer is real wood, peeled or sliced from a log. If sliced ("flitch sawn") and well detailed, it can look like solid wood. Veneer that is rotary cut, like most plywood, has distorted grain and looks odd as a finished surface.
Well said, JeromeS!
Everyday Intern, that's a brick veneer wall composed of real bricks. And they *are* gravity load bearing - even though in addition they are stabilized by tiebacks, the main force holding them in place is the gravity load.
Brick tile is glued to a substrate - the gravity loads are secondary to the adhesive connection.
How about this: you can magically turn brick tile into Real Brick by stacking it up like slices of sandwich bread, with mortar smeared on like peanut butter. The orientation of mass being horizontal not vertical changes its True Material Nature (TM).
"What do you want to be, flat pancake-ish brick-colored clay unit?" "I like a Short Stack."
Mmmmmmm...
painted on brick...
I consider brick real brick when the brick are of nominal sizes customarily used for load bearing even when the brick is not used in a load-bearing application but load bearing brick walls are typically 2 or more wythes thick.
When the brick is merely a 1/2" width (being a 1/2" wythe, it would be more a tile than solid masonry as a structural system).
There is some degree of reference to what defines a brick as a brick from a tile or a block.
If it's too big, its a block not a brick.
^ I thought the difference between brick and block is that a block requires two hands to lift and place where a single hand can do the job when using bricks.
The project I'm currently working on is using Real Brick(tm). Norman clinker to be precise... it's going to look amazing.
even easier than lick and stick is peel and stick. behold this brick contact paper:
Donna seems to allow brick veneer to be Real Brick (TM) because the bricks are stacked (despite a shelf angle being the structural support that carries the gravity load).
Jerome, does that jibe with you?
tduds, do provide details if possible.
Norman size (12" module), 1/3 running. Project info should be publicly available soon, at which point I'll update.
Its at least "real" in that its honest about what it is.
To the earlier question; I have used "Real Brick TM" only once in my career and that was for the home of a mason; we did a triple wythe wall that introduced the brick finish at the interior.
tduds, that is what you call 1/3 running bond?
Jerome, when was the project done (year, rough estimate is fine) and where (city, region, or climate zone)?
EI: No, that's just the only photo from the manufacturer.
I love those purply black bricks. Yum yum.
Pretty much every single project I've worked on has real brick. Even done multiple load bearing brick buildings using structural bricks (basically a lot like cmu, just brick material in a shorter module). Even done 1 structural ceramic brick... sort of like this (green glazed too).
Why you might use lick and stick is because that is not required to be supported by steel or masonry. So you can put it on stick framing or in situations where real masonry or stone can't be used. Btw; I did just use 3/4" stone faces (stone type tile) on a project to clad the chimney.. also used hollowed out stone in some areas where weight was an issue or like a folly I also just did, to allow for radiant heat coils in the natural stone bench so your bum don't get cold and overheat radiant heat is just so .... cheap looking.
Here's a real project we just finished cd's on:
True brick veneer, air space, insulation, air barrier, mtl stud, precast structure. Black brick are normans, red just got ve'd to modular. There are soldier and sailor coarses in there too as well as cut limestone copings and sills plus black granite stones at the base.
Project was from the early 2000, located in southern NJ, zone 4 (?)
I just pulled up the drawings; It was a great room wall with a massive masonry fireplace flanked by double windows on each side and then a tiny segment of full height wall on both ends. It was basically one giant wall with an R Value of 3 and lots of thermal bridging...
obviously, I'm not counting veneer walls with backup wall.
^ I thought the difference between brick and block is that a block requires two hands to lift and place where a single hand can do the job when using bricks.
Maybe.
A recently-finished building in Portland is using similar brick..
Love the texture.
^ I thought the difference between brick and block is that a block requires two hands to lift and place where a single hand can do the job when using bricks.
Maybe.
It's the material and fabrication process. Brick is more of a fired clay product, block is more of a concrete mix product.
mightyaa,
It's the material and fabrication process. Brick is more of a fired clay product, block is more of a concrete mix product.
Study up on your historic building materials. Block wasn't always referred to concrete mix product. Bricks were typically masonry units that were less than 12" in length and were less than 6" in the other dimensions. These units would typically fit in the palm of the hands. blocks were typically larger masonry units. While brick is typically a product that was a clay product that was fired in a kiln, they were also dimensionally smaller in order to be easily placed by a brick mason often to be able to be held with one hand. Blocks were a age old term from the days of stone masonry so the term blocks were used for any masonry that would be around the sizes of stone masonry units even if the material used is fired clay, stone, or even concrete products. Brick refers to masonry units on the size range typically used in clay bricks.
With a rock cutter, I can make basalt bricks without much trouble out of larger blocks of stone.
Industry tradition is a brick is a masonry unit that a brick layer/mason would be able to hold in one hand and with the other hand use the trowel. Blocks are typically referred to larger units. Weight is typically associated given the typical material but some materials have extreme material weight density like Gold so even one gold brick may actually take two hands to hold. On the other hand a typical brick made of typical materials would usually not way so much that an average brick mason / brick layer would not be able to hold with one hand.
Over time, a rough geometric parameter has been established to denote the line between the use of the term brick vs block is used.
Before fired clay brick, there was mud bricks.
For once can you not try to be Mr. Wikipedia and act normal? You're in a forum where there are a ton of architects with more experience than you after all. Have you ever laid a brick outside of a toilet?
On another note, I'm going to have 60 hours by time I leave tonight. All I do is architecture.
For me, there is somewhat a volume parameter.
12" x 6" x 6" is by volume benchmark. That's 432 sq.inches.
Some bricks could be 14" or even 16" long but the other dimensions would likely have to be reduced.
I also have a somewhat a minimum wythe dimension parameter. The wythe may not be less than 2" in thickness (not height or length but thickness as part of wall thickness calculation).
Less than 2" and I lean toward referring to the material as a veneer tile such as a wall tile than as a brick.
While the rules are not absolutely hard line but when the masonry's wythe thickness is 1" or less.... its probably a veneer without a doubt in my opinion.
EI - only in restoration work Real Brick (TM). I run across a lot of bricks that are 2 2/3" high with 1/3" mortar, these are extremely annoying dimensions when working in inches.
Josh,
Shut up you cartoonist.
Silly Ricky, volume is measured in cubic units of measurement ...
12" x 6" x 6" is by volume benchmark. That's 432 sq.inches.
Josh, nice brick laying reference.
E_I,
Heh.............. right... cubic inches.
Rick, if I were a cartoonist I'd erase you and start over.
Also, I really have no clue what the hell he means by that.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.