Owner builders are afforded diminished code requirements in a lot of states (including California). I have difficulty supporting any system that enforces the same codes on individuals as commercial builders. Why would code mandate that anyone have electricity for example?
i have clients in so. cal., where the climate is really forgiving. they don't want to have a gas fired heater in the house and when necessary, they like to use small radiator type electric heater, rarely. these clients are environmentalist type 60's generation people now in their seventies. kind of people who prefer to put a sweater on instead of jacking up the thermostat.
building dept. will not close the construction permit because they refuse to install a big ass gas heater in their 900 sq. ft. home.
go figure!
Its much more complicated then "where religion ends and government begins." I think it is about to what extent religion dictates culture/lifestyle & vice versa, what extent culture/lifestyle dictates architecture & vice versa, and how much the government dictates construction considering the above.
In the case of the Amish, the religion strongly dictates culture/lifestyle, and culture/lifestyle strongly dictates construction. Considering that, the government shouldn't force the Amish to submit plans, etc considering they don't use drawings or common construction methods. Forcing them to do so limits their culture and therefore religion.
So long as it is just them using their buildings, then that is fine. If what they are constructing are intended as public buildings where there is even a reasonable chance that there will be public access in the foreseeable future, then they need to submit their documents like anyone else.
Protect the health, safety and welfare of the public. That's our job.
Obviously, my comment was directed towards private structures. Now, public structures are a whole different matter. I've been in one Amish-built public building and never considered the safety issue. Following their religion, they didn't use any metal in structures so all connections are either stone (mortar) or wood (special joints, wood pegs, etc). I would assume this kind of connections is hard to analyze structurally and is dependent on craftsmanship, but doesn't mean it is necessarily weak because it is not quantifiable. The slow death of craftsmanship can be said to have come from quantifiable methods and not necessarily better or cheaper methods (although people like to think otherwise).
If they don't believe in following this for public buildings, I believe they should be inspected after construction, prior to occupation. They shouldn't have their religious freedoms taken away, but that doesn't mean they don't have a responsibility to the public.
And to clear things up, we're talking about Amish people building Amish structures correct? Vado, I think those Amish constructing commercial buildings are using standard methods? I've worked with some talented Amish masons before.
all structural connections are dependent on craftsmanship in that you can have a shitty weld as much as a shitty peg. some forms of construction are standardized and quantified, and the figures that they publish are ideal numbers disregarding site/weather/person eccentricities.
if amish people or anyone else wants to live in a home without plugs or anything else, i say go for it. there is only a code for outlet spacing, for example, usually every 12' minimum, etc. because 'the government' thinks if they aren't close enough together you are just going to string an extension cord across the floor, trample it over time, and burn down the house and maybe your neighbors'. when things are written with the assumption that everyone is an idiot, it has to end up placing idiotic conditions on everyone regardless, whether we jive with it or not. however, if everyone is an idiot, then so are code writers, so we have a problem. conversely, if everyone is not an idiot, then ditch the code fetish?
btw, timber frame buildings can reasonably expect a lifespan of 5 centuries using what are actually pallet-grade logs. we have no real idea as of yet if steel can go for two, scientifically speaking. . .and wood is one of the only renewable structural materials used in building. . .just to be objective about it, which codes aren't, they are cultural and political constructs.
Dec 31, 08 2:38 am ·
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7 Comments
Owner builders are afforded diminished code requirements in a lot of states (including California). I have difficulty supporting any system that enforces the same codes on individuals as commercial builders. Why would code mandate that anyone have electricity for example?
i have clients in so. cal., where the climate is really forgiving. they don't want to have a gas fired heater in the house and when necessary, they like to use small radiator type electric heater, rarely. these clients are environmentalist type 60's generation people now in their seventies. kind of people who prefer to put a sweater on instead of jacking up the thermostat.
building dept. will not close the construction permit because they refuse to install a big ass gas heater in their 900 sq. ft. home.
go figure!
many amish builders are commercial builders ie in northern indianastan.
Its much more complicated then "where religion ends and government begins." I think it is about to what extent religion dictates culture/lifestyle & vice versa, what extent culture/lifestyle dictates architecture & vice versa, and how much the government dictates construction considering the above.
In the case of the Amish, the religion strongly dictates culture/lifestyle, and culture/lifestyle strongly dictates construction. Considering that, the government shouldn't force the Amish to submit plans, etc considering they don't use drawings or common construction methods. Forcing them to do so limits their culture and therefore religion.
So long as it is just them using their buildings, then that is fine. If what they are constructing are intended as public buildings where there is even a reasonable chance that there will be public access in the foreseeable future, then they need to submit their documents like anyone else.
Protect the health, safety and welfare of the public. That's our job.
Obviously, my comment was directed towards private structures. Now, public structures are a whole different matter. I've been in one Amish-built public building and never considered the safety issue. Following their religion, they didn't use any metal in structures so all connections are either stone (mortar) or wood (special joints, wood pegs, etc). I would assume this kind of connections is hard to analyze structurally and is dependent on craftsmanship, but doesn't mean it is necessarily weak because it is not quantifiable. The slow death of craftsmanship can be said to have come from quantifiable methods and not necessarily better or cheaper methods (although people like to think otherwise).
If they don't believe in following this for public buildings, I believe they should be inspected after construction, prior to occupation. They shouldn't have their religious freedoms taken away, but that doesn't mean they don't have a responsibility to the public.
And to clear things up, we're talking about Amish people building Amish structures correct? Vado, I think those Amish constructing commercial buildings are using standard methods? I've worked with some talented Amish masons before.
all structural connections are dependent on craftsmanship in that you can have a shitty weld as much as a shitty peg. some forms of construction are standardized and quantified, and the figures that they publish are ideal numbers disregarding site/weather/person eccentricities.
if amish people or anyone else wants to live in a home without plugs or anything else, i say go for it. there is only a code for outlet spacing, for example, usually every 12' minimum, etc. because 'the government' thinks if they aren't close enough together you are just going to string an extension cord across the floor, trample it over time, and burn down the house and maybe your neighbors'. when things are written with the assumption that everyone is an idiot, it has to end up placing idiotic conditions on everyone regardless, whether we jive with it or not. however, if everyone is an idiot, then so are code writers, so we have a problem. conversely, if everyone is not an idiot, then ditch the code fetish?
btw, timber frame buildings can reasonably expect a lifespan of 5 centuries using what are actually pallet-grade logs. we have no real idea as of yet if steel can go for two, scientifically speaking. . .and wood is one of the only renewable structural materials used in building. . .just to be objective about it, which codes aren't, they are cultural and political constructs.
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