Girls Inc. was looking for ways to get their girls interested in fast-paced, high-paying jobs where women traditionally have been left out. Architecture and engineering certainly fit the bill. [...]
the girls will travel to various construction sites and talk to professionals in the field. Girls Inc. also is looking to build a new, bigger facility, and the summer camp girls will play a large part in the initial design, even being given a chance to pitch their project
— newsherald.com
More on the gender gap in architecture:
131 Comments
Doesn't seperating girls from boys, even for a seemingly 'good' cause, reinforce gender identification and reinforces it as a denominator (whether in the aim to undermine or to empower, both of those being the opposite sides of the same coin). A good argument can be construed, I suppose, to establish how this culture of empowering is umbilically linkes to that of undermining, such that from one prejudice, a fetish is born.
I am more in support of the Swedish model of growing a gender-free space, linguistically and culturally benign that does not factor in gender (violentally polar as it is) and will, hopefully, over time, gain grounds.
"Gender free" is the most fucking dumb concept of all time. Gender is a real thing. It's biological.
Check all your genitals at the door, kids: "girls" and "boys" are only concepts, and so passe.
You confuse gender with sex.
No, gender has been part of human civilization since always. There is that inconvenient thing called science that many overly sensitive people find offensive, but that dosent matter. Actually, humans are NOT the only animals that have gender roles. all of nature does, with the exception of plants, reptiles and a few other non-social animals.....Gender is an intrinsic part of social behavior, and human gender roles evolved along similar lines in cultures that were completely isolated from one another.
if you want, jla-x then it is like that for you.
if you don't, then it's not.
in as much as it is a social construction that you hold on to, it is then exists factually.
in as much as it is a social construction to be questioned and undermined and replaced, it looses that veil of factuality. it is not a penis nor a vagina, not the formal difference between both. it is not about female hormones nor abou male hormones. nor a rock nor water. it is not a material or a form: it is an idea in your head that radiates outside. it is about how men should be like and how women should be like in society and how the difference between having a penis and a having vagina is more important in terms of classification than is the difference between, say, a person with a knobby nose or an upturned nose. ot between someone with more merit and another with less.
the difference between men and women and the subsequent gendered roles goes back to superstitions centred around procreation, around the (mainly woman's) body. we are losing much of these superstitions; there should be no place for gendering in a truly secular and progressive society devoid of superstitions and their consquential cultural heritage.
Architecture is not a high paying job. They should go to coding camp.
chatter you do seem a wee bit disillusioned, but i'm with adora!
My daughter tells me she's a better architect than me when she builds in Minecraft and I think her story boards are awesome - so I'll encourage her to get into film and comic books....probably not great financially.... so I'm a wee bit disillusioned.
not at all Olaf. I am not disillusioned Societies change, their perceptions and ideas change...these things are not set in stone. And instead of getting all religious about them just because they do exist in our head and between each other, we should question their need to be, their malignancy and utility (without hating or turning fascistic on those in whose lives these aspects feature).
yes,
-gender roles have created a need to create "safe spaces" to encourage exploration.
- sex and gender are separate and the assumption that they are inextricably linked can lead to issues (read: North Carolina bathrooms).
Chatter, you set a goal that is admirable but remember that solutions are are not instant and not universal. If you think about the presence of the programs longitudinally, it's another step in the direction of your precedent. In fact is a reversal from the period when men were entering professional and technical fields (eg. programming/coding) and intentionally excluding women because they recognized that there was money.
On a side note guess who ranks 6th in gender equity according to the world economic forum...
I couldn't give two shits what gender you want to be. Wear whatever you like...act how you like to act. Equal rights for all genders..I'm 100% with that. just don't try to bullshit me into believing that male and female behaviors are not biologically determined. That's ridiculously false and a complete denial of science...equally as As insane and infuriating as climate change denial and people who think Jesus had a pet dinosaur.
you should really get out more chatter, you seem a but out of touch with reality.
Gender fluidity is not a fiction. Jlax, you're not suggesting it is, are you?
i think jla-x is heading the sex direction, no? https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081217124430.htm so in the research pertinant to part of this news post, some researchers took a bunch of very similar humans and split the groups by distinct a biological difference - a group of penisis vs a group of vaginas. they appeared to make another biological link at the brain that ansewered the research question stating the group of penises might be better at visual roation than humans with vaginas.....this could be social or could be biological as its a brain excercise.............now with ragard to a woman winning the worlds strongest man competition or a man giving birth - thats a fantasy longshot. .....with regard to gender roles that may be more biological than social take the fact my wife gave birth and was immidiately very attached to the child. as a man, like many, the bond didnt really happen until the child developed a personality so about 2 years. in other words, being a mother is very biological and being a mother fucking rollling stone the same....
Marc, I see (and saw - since it is clear what the intention of the endeavour is) your point although I cannot completely agree with it as I do not see that compromises necessarily lead to an intended intention). you will note that in my first post here, i stated that it would be a growing (ie developing) space. So I no where said that it was an instant solution (please read the post before :
"I am more in support of the Swedish model of growing a gender-free space, linguistically and culturally benign that does not factor in gender (violentally polar as it is) and will, hopefully, over time, gain grounds."
I admire the said Swedish model because it is not about compromise or the reverse imitation of the sexist model (i do not believe in brotherhoods nor in sisterhoods) but is a brave, honest and intelligent social experiment.
however, i am questioning myself as to whether I am, to some extent, a bit of a hypocrite in adopting a different perception on race than on gender. I can see why a group of disenfranchised black and Brown people would want to create empowering social networks. so , yes, in drawing a parallel here, again I see your point. But then again, I am not advocating a position of gender-blindness or race-blindness. I do recognize that race and gender exist. (per one of the posts above)
Not at all b3. That's something individual. I support anyone's freedom to do what makes them happy, and i am not suggesting that non-conformity to gender is unnatural. Transgender individuals are completely natural if they are doing what feels natural to them. A gender neutral society is unnatural. As a species, gender is intrinsically connected to biology. How the roles of gender manifest is cultural, but the fact that male and female genders are almost universally treated differently in human and non human species is proof of this. To pretend that gender dosent exist as a means of securing equality is dumb. It's like pretending that race dosent exist as a means of reducing racism. this is just scientifically false, and asking people to deny real scientific fact and common sense is always a bad idea, even if those facts challenge ones political views.
Why is race identity different than gender identity? If gender is only tangentially tied to biological attributes, why can't someone white or black or brown identify as another race?
As far as rights go, it is essential to protect the rights of individual liberties. It is counterproductive to try and engineer a society as a means to achieve this through censorship, denial, and social engineering experiments.
“In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, not to inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to reality the better. When people are forced to remain silent when they are being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced to repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of probity. To assent to obvious lies is...in some small way to become evil oneself. One's standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control. I think if you examine political correctness, it has the same effect and is intended to.”
~Theodore Dalrymple
As with most of these female empowerment stories, I'm wondering who and what is being sold. Does anybody care about this camp if it's just an architecture camp? No, the girls-only angle attracts attention.
Good marketing job.
Theodore Dalrymple is a cunt.
Dalyrmple and his fans:
Chatter,
I think you're missing the point that this is not an end solution but the first step in a "course adjustment." I also think this is not a matter of making things gender neutral. I'm not sure how that could come to fruition. Even in the context of you reference to Sweden, the evaluation are quantified (financially), with the hopes that the impacts are also qualitative.
No, Marc.I am not missing that as a point. I think it very clear ... and I'm arguing against exactly it.
Marc, I see (and saw - since it is clear what the intention of the endeavour is) your point although I cannot completely agree with it as I do not see that compromises necessarily lead to an intended intention).
the intended intention being exactly what you state (course adjustment). you can also bridge the gap between why i would use the term 'compromise' and why you would call it a first step. So, there is a difference between missing the point being made and not accepting it or questioning it.
in which case, what would you propose that would be different and would be capable of having your desired effect (curious)?
Hmm...it is almost like I said next to nothing. It is 'upstairs'; scroll up :)
As in your first post? You are countering an action with an ideal. What are the specific you would propose (versus a gender specific summer camp) to get you where you want to be?
As an example- modifying code requires to make all restrooms gender neutral and universally accessible.
you pretty much do just that chatter, but i believe marc - chatterbox is referring to sentence 1 of their comment post (dont read the shit in paranthese)..........Donna if that gif was your match.com pic you would blow up your inbox..........so back in the day in the office we would post fake craigslist posts - usually pretending to be horney women looking for action - cant tell you how many pics from work emails like Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, etc...we got - hilarious.
Marc, you almost make it sound like you are criticizing my criticism because it isnt accompanied by a concrete study of a counter proposal? do I really need to afford you this, or did I implicate myself in the necessity of spoonfeeding you everything? and is criticism of action invalid simply because action occurs? what sort of nonsense is that. i merely pointed out to an example where gender was undermined that I admired and one where gender was being reinforced that I do not admire. I gave reasons why. I don't have all day to come up with a proposal, why don't you chip in?
I'm probably too old to go. Darn.
I appreciate the umbrella you provide as a goal and critical context, but I don't think the examples are appropriately paired, hence my request. I'm curious how you would translate this goal from given the difference in cultural complexities.
And the proposal I'm prompting you for isn't an all day process. None of us have time for that, including the people who saw an opportunity to address a socio/cultural/economic problem through a specific profession and took the time to make this summer camp happen. I just requested a simple pitch (similar to the one I made above above) based on what you see as wrong. That could be far more interesting than just saying "you know they do x better over in y."
I'll even rephrase the request to more accurately reflect my request-
Chatter, the goals you present are based on cultural conditions of a country with very different demographic conditions than of the United States. Despite the differences, these broad goals are indeed interesting and desirable. As the person who referenced Sweden, can you make one quick suggestion as how to translate their success with gender equity to the United States?
Neither am I from or in the US. Again, my previous post is already a response of sorts to your request (you seem to think that a reiterative post is needed in order for me to understand you.). I am not interested in what you think of as being feasible or not (and I believe that self imposed delimitation - what is ideal vs what is feasible-is apriori a regressive prejudice that contributes to altering the denominator of judgement) You can accept the criticism or not as it stands but you have no right in trying to undermine it by suggesting that it's idealism or nonfeasibility - and I don't even conceive it in those terms- renders it valid or invalid. Furthermore, what is so unlikely about the counter-pairing? Different countries and institutions? We always measure how one country performs in a certain way against another and ideas infiltrate borders and cultures. Why set up this dogmatic "it aint gonna work here" mentality?
You assume that my curiosity is cynicism, which is far from the case. I ask with genuine curiosity how you would translate these ideas. I only think that you have brought up an interesting proposal (perhaps a world w/o gendered pronouns) and I would like to know more about how you would propose to affect change based on this pairing.
Nor was I trying to undermine the criticism, but was treating it as an opportunity to create a discussion around the specific topic and not generalized discussions of branding one nation better than another beyond superficial (otherwise we all should look to Iceland). Going back to your reference, specific actions were taken to make those ideal situation recognizable, arguably not realized, demonstrating that ideals and actions can create exchanges for fruitful discussions and results.
Regardless, disregard my request, and enjoy your present time of day.
tinnt see if that one office will sponsor you ;)
chatter sounds a lot like tammuzz (a presumably extremely disgruntled most likely homosexual from the middle east or north Africa who lives in the dirty West)............marc - unlike many languages English does not give male, female, articles to objects etc...like say Spanish or German etc....its PC to use 'they' or 'their', especially when in the past humanity was always referred to as 'mankind'.......'course adjustments' happen best when the counter culture fully grasps reality. Gwhartons mocked qoute and responding posts only indicate how non-counter the presumed counter culture is. You want to make any 'course adjustment' you must accept reality first and then build the culture and language upon that, otherwise its just a lot of gibberish. Humans can only be provided equal opportunity but can not be treated equally since no human is equal. Some humans are better than others, this is a fact. At what, and its social importance is worth a debate.
did you click his 'history' button before coming to that conclusion about chatter olaf?
NOPE. Just based on the writing. I could be wrong.
now that I looked, def. him. thanks for the heads up. i guess thats why he was picking on Marc, Marc didnt know better.....i also assumed possibly him based on the Eisenenman thread comments. quite the intellect but very disillusioned many times unfortunately.... worth debating with when not in a cranky mood.
Picked on Marc? He addressed me with his questions and he gotmy response, not more or less. The final pretense that he wasnt undermining was disingenuous (all that talk about ideal vs what is possible) but we'll stop here. Disgruntled most likely homosexual from the middle east? Lol. I feel the love.
I can see the rednecks are still around :)
whether you understand your dialectical style or not, its an intrigueing one nevertheless, you intend to provide empty counters with as the say in your part of the world - something like - your intent is understood. first you state something, dodge a counter of substance, then challenge the person stating the counter with an empty formulation (if followed through) and pretened like you do not understand why you were not understood.....the West loves everyone.
Rednecks Vs middle eastern men. Who is more homophobic and sexist? Dosent matter....the US system does a much much better job of ensuring equal rights...far from perfect but much better in general. That said, equality can only be ensured through law not through social engineering, censorship, or denial.
rednecks signifies a specific category within the western (basically north american, i think the term is) white background jla-x defined by its conservative and regressive outlook. Middle eastern men signifies men from a large chunk of the map who are not unified by any outlook in specific. that you should force that parallel and assume that middle eastern men are homophobic and sexist is telling about how you think rather than about what middle eastern men are.
this middle easterner, for one, is far less sexist , gender-centric , heteronormal and racist than more than a few of you here. now, do we still want to play the middle eastern card? at least middle easterners (bar a colony that doesnt belong to the region) did not take over a country/continent and massacre its indigeneous peoples so that they could steal their property and wealth then enslave another continent's people in order to slave away from them. Next....
agree jla-x and the rednecks are here to protect civilization......funny story, and the guy was presumed to be from the middle east based on name and accent, today this guy said "I got a ticket because I did not obey a sign." yes, this is how the law works.
There are biological functions as in the roles in procreation but also certain natural roles that women are naturally better than men on the default level. However, this doesn't mean in course of life that a woman will be a good mother. Complexity of human psychology can go to reinforce the natural instincts or work against it such as psychological conditioning that causes a woman to not be. But at birth, in general, woman are instinctively attuned to emotions and empathy. However, through life, a person may be psychologically conditioned to ignore these instincts that are naturally part of the underlying instincts needed for mothers to be good mothers but instincts alone doesn't make a woman a good mother. While a man can serve and do some of the functions of the mother once a child in born and that is more accurately PARENTING roles.
You see, the parenting role is not just the birthing but also the raising a child into the world. Children can have mothers and fathers and yet have NO parents because the mother and/or father doesn't do their parental roles. Parenting roles is a role concept defined in societal culture. This evolves as the society cultures evolve.
While there is certain intrinsic link to the biological functions but once a child is born, this is more a matter of parental role. Fathering and Mothering is a function of biology. Parenting is not and is a metaphysical role of the father and mother to do in society in raising a child. Once a child is born and to be raised, it is no longer so much about biological gender or sex but about being adults raising a child in a given society/culture.
Traditional societal role of men working (as they had prior to role of hunting for food) is societal. This evolves. However, tradition was to have the father working and the mother raising the child because in society, women were more empathic and that was because of how women are raised as girls growing up to be women compared to boys growing up to be men. Men are raised to reject and close off emotion which makes men difficult to relate to the emotional needs of young boys and girls.
The reason for either the man OR the woman working and the other one stays at home is because children need a parent always present until they are in school (which besides being a place of learning is also a place of babysitting children to keep them safe until they become adults.
When both the mother and the father works, then it becomes increasingly difficult to raise a child. You end up spending all your money on child care when one income source used to be enough because you didn't spend money on child care when as parents, you did the role.
In a society where both the mother and the father works, then the children has no parents present throughout the day and in worse cases.... no parents present in the day to day lives of the children. The only parental roles in their lives are the child care, the school teachers, etc.
What happened to fathers and mothers being parents? Perhaps this is a question for its own thread and answers to that.
I do believe we have some societal problems when BOTH the mother and father has to both work TWO FULL-TIME JOBS (or equivalent), each, that we are seeing today. That's both mother and fathers having to work 80+ hours a week to pay the bills and make do.
There is something seriously wrong with that picture.
I apologize that this doesn't add to the original post. It is just more a long the line of this overall tangential discussion.
clutter, it is a fair card to be dealt when discussing anything with you and you know that........
wait. i want a death match - RickB vs Clutter.... GO!!!
Olaf, why? because Im not silently wrapping your kebab sandwich, you redneck ignorant nitwit. No, it is not a relevant card to play but then again, who am I conversing with here... you suffer from the hubris of combining dumbness (and I'm not generalizing, I have never read anything vaguely intellectually stimulating by you, Olaf, whatever your prétentions are or were) and arrogance.
Whilst you make fun of Rick, and whatever my opinion on his opinions, he has always been polite, never launching attacks on your persons. Unlike you, an Archinect hyena.
also, the hypocracy is that transgender people are choosing a gender...not gender neutrality. They are choosing to be female or male not to be androgynous. The concept of gender neutrality even denies the legitimacy of transgendered people by suggesting that their desires are towards something manufactured rather than a fulfillment of their natural inner selves. This is problematic. I believe that transgendered people are truly of another gender mentally..
We have come a long way as a country to accept gays, but I can guarantee you that the idea of 2 hairy men slapping wieners is just as repulsive to a super liberal straight male circa 2016 as a redneck circa 1950. We just don't care what other people do. I support the right of people to eat mayo, but the thought of eating mayo myself makes me want to barf in a way similar to the thought of swallowing a dick. In essence, our cultural progress is about acceptance of others and a recognition/respect of individual liberties and laws that ensure these liberties not a rewiring of our nature.
Olaf,
It's true that english does not use gender, but also keep in the relatively recent and developing trend towards stating your preference for gender pronouns (he or she, his or hers, etc.) making gender preferences transparent. That to me is an example of trying to develop some type of equity based on using language transparently and honestly. Will it work? Years to tell...
Here's the interesting thing about Sweden. They ranked 40th with respect to gender equity in 2004. In 2014 they moved up to 4. That's impressive, very impressive. If they did it by changing pronouns, or by suggesting that boys wear bras- and succeeded- imagine how that could impact thinking in the United States to eliminate the need for title 9 or safe spaces that double as summer camps.
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