This week on the podcast: student debt, Chicago's "State of the Art of Architecture", and our new series, Archinect's Lexicon. Paul, Amelia, Donna and Ken are joined by architecture students Jarrod and Elliott to discuss how student debt is changing their lives and careers. We also consider what Chicago has in store for its inaugural architectural biennial next year, and how architectural language (and English in general) is changing with the internet.
As always, you can tweet questions/comments about podcast topics to #archinectsessions, or leave a message for us at (213) 784-7421. You could hear your voice on the next episode.
Listen to episode six of the Archinect Sessions podcast, "The State of Architecture is Debt":
Shownotes:
Thick Description from wikipedia
Villa Muller: A Work of Adolf Loos by Leslie van Duzer and Kent Kleinman
ACSA Atlas Project’s graph comparing architecture and law degree return on investment
May-September art installation by Rob Ley at Eskenazi Hospital
Eskenazi Hospital on HOK's website (no finished pictures, unfortunately.)
The Architecture Lobby’s Pamphlet #1
Student loan start-up Pave
Paul's photos from diving Ellen Platform oil rig...
35 Comments
I wondered, in this podcast, whether a venue for the Chicago Architecture Biennial had been announced; today, one has been: What The Chicago Architecture Biennial Will Look Like.
Can't wait to listen to this episode, especially since Chicago's been on the news lately. Apparently, it's "hot" according to Architizer: http://architizer.com/blog/6-reasons-chicago-is-so-hot-right-now/. I also didn't know that Theaster Gates would be involved in the Biennial. I think he's great!
about an hour into it, great pod cost, especially coverage on the debt vs degree, that diagram. says it all.
vado retro, getting credit where credit is not due since...
Listening. Love it. Well done!
the earliest use of the word 'starchitect' i could find. 1999: http://www.acaarchitecture.com/mag47(2).htm
doesn't dispel the idea that it started at archinect, but it would have to have been in the first two years.
i wouldn't think it's a point of pride anyway. stupid word.
good program, guys! i've finally caught up.
Hahaha it *is* a stupid word! With terrible resonances for the profession.
PS I miss Inland Architect.
A choice quote from the "Is the Architectural Profession Still Relevant?" article:
This is what Indy (Johar) is saying, “we happen to do built environment if that’s what’s required.” And buildings are quite often required. When done well, for the right reasons, and informed by the right research and understanding, they can provide an resource like no other, and have an incredible capacity to embed a positive social pattern into a place over a long period of time. Few other disciplines can do this, and that’s the power of architecture.
Thanks very much for the endorsement, and the mention of the next piece - the pressure is on but I like it that way!
The talk about student debt is a very necessary one and I'm glad you had a discussion about it. But as a current graduate student at one of the top five (it will remain anonymous) Architecture schools in the U.S, I feel like these students are not grappling with the actual question posed by the astronomical tuition prices. Like many students around me, I feel they've developed a numbed approach to student debt and do not question the actual returns yielded by the numbers they're presented with. Although I sympathize with the hesitation to really dig into the matter of quality of education vs. tuition price in a public setting, because it may put them at odds with their current institution.
Pedagogical questions posed by students, in my experience, have been met with a significant amount of disdain by their professors (especially at one particular LA school); and as an aspiring educator in the Architectural field, I believe that raises a disturbing question of the educational shortcomings in American Universities. Because in truth, other than cases where accessibility to emerging technology is the difference, European schools are training designers of the same --often better-- caliber, at fractions of the cost. How can the U.S. aspire to compete professionally with the rest of the world, if its own future professionals are crippled by both debt, and a sub-par design education?
you're a funny man Carlos - what you be smoking I want some? is that gran-dad's pipe with some heesha....i smuggled once Egyptian tobacco into the states...back in the day, the 90's, we paid an Egyptian cop $5 not to search our boat that had marijuana from Sudan... I read Nietzsche with my Nubian boat capitan smoking a joint on the Nile...Drugs are good and so is an education.
and I qoute from above /|
"Because in truth, other than cases where accessibility to emerging technology is the difference, European schools are training designers of the same --often better-- caliber, at fractions of the cost. How can the U.S. aspire to compete professionally with the rest of the world, if its own future professionals are crippled by both debt, and a sub-par design education?"
reading through the architecture lobby's pamphlet - the issue of architectural fees are vastly more complicated than whether the aia can speak freely about fees or not. we've got a platform right here that we can all speak freely on - is that going to convince our clients to reach deeper into their wallets to increase our fees? nope. is it going to get governmental agencies to raise their fee schedules? nope. railing on the aia is, in it's own way, rearranging the deck chairs of the whole discussion. (i'd love to have their passion channeled through a vehicle that actually has the capacity to affect change.)
also, i'll say that all of us have to figure out how to create a discussion about value that can bring up the whole bar more - the reality is that top firms get paid well (how that's distributed internally, i can't say). it's the bottom that ultimately sets the whole stack though. how are you going to get the firm who's cranking out a multifamily box for 2% to raise that fee? it's not the museums or hospitals that are dragging the average down. (and "rebranding" and working the media alone aren't going to move that needle). finally, top talent in the tech industry gets paid because the potential return on investment can be astronomical. the numbers just don't compare to any architecture firm anywhere. consider gensler, one of the largest architecture led companies: their 2013 annual revenue was (self reported) at 807M, with 3500+ employees. uber, a company that didn't exist 5 years ago, did 1B+ in gross revenue in 2013, with them taking a 20% gross margin. they have a lot of drivers, but their full time staff of 550 at the end of the year.
do the math. we're not the same as tech workers because our industry just doesn't matter the same way. period.
having said that, top firms do compete for top talent in architecture. you just may have to readjust what you believe "top firm" and "top talent" comprise...
“we happen to do built environment if that’s what’s required.” And buildings are quite often required. When done well, for the right reasons, and informed by the right research and understanding, they can provide an resource like no other, and have an incredible capacity to embed a positive social pattern into a place over a long period of time. Few other disciplines can do this, and that’s the power of architecture."
donna - to play devil's advocate for a minute: can you do everything described in this sentence and not call yourself an "architect" while doing it? meaning, if you called yourself a 'spatial engineer', would it still work? could poetry be made?
i think part of our battle right now is that 'architect' has a lot - LOT - of baggage in the marketplace. good and bad. from a fee perspective.... very bad. we could definitely make more - seen too many examples recently...
(and i should point out in my comment above; there's certainly no reason one can't simply refuse to work for clients unless you get "x" in compensation. at all. i'm quite sure that's what someone like zumthor is able to do. but that's probably not sustainable at a large scale in the overall marketplace. my comments are couched in the general thought that we're all trying to address that much bigger marketplace).
Archinect - I think the download link above is misdirected. After puzzling over the disconnect between what I heard and this discussion items I realized I was listening to session 5.
Also - it would be great if there was a direct link on the site navigation sidebar to go to all the podcast episodes and discussions, instead of scrolling through the news items. I tend to binge-listen and this would be helpful!
midlander, which download link exactly is misdirected?
And thanks for your suggestion of a podcast sidebar button. For now, you can binge-listen on iTunes, Stitcher, or SoundCloud, or by searching for the "Archinect Sessions" tag in the news.
midlander - thank you for the note, we corrected the link after you posted your comment.
As Amelia mentioned, the best way to get immediate notifications of new episodes is to subscribe to the podcast or follow the tag.
Thanks - yes, the link was corrected pretty soon after I posted that. Look forward to the next one.
I'm pretty excited about the possibilities for the Chicago Biennial. This article had an informative interview with the directors - sounds like there will be a focus on connecting to socially-engaged practitioners and thinkers, and serious effort to get into the broader impacts of architecture. It would be very valuable for the profession to have a thoughtful exposition on architecture that engaged the public as to the possibilities beyond mere image.
Not that Venice doesn't attempt to do this - but the city's special preciousness makes it tough to connect to anything outside the pavilions. It's kind of a fly-in, fly-out event. Chicago being a living modern city with important communities of practitioners, outsider planning interests, educators, students and cultural critics - this opens up some big potential to engage.
Any thoughts on that? Are there other erudite architecture events doing a good job at public engagement - exhibits which go beyond the one-off formal experiments of PS1 or the Serpentine Pavilion?
I'd second Ken's comment that the directors lack a representative of the youngest thinkers. I suspect this reflects a broader problem in the field, that young architects have had an uncommonly tough time establishing themselves in the US. Consequently, there is an unfair perception that there are no interesting young architects.
Good point about Chicago's everyman quality vs. Venice's preciousness, midlander. I'm very excited about Chicago, too.
Gregory, I don't know how to respond to your comments except yes, you're right and yes, we need to keep opening up this topic to figure it out. Architects KNOW we are undervalued, lots of angry members of our profession accuse the AIA of being a huge part of the problem, but I've yet to hear good ideas from either within or outside the AIA how to raise our perceived value in the eyes of the public.
I think there are many angles from which to attack this problem, and not all of them are going to be workable for everyone. Zumthor can refuse to do a project if the fee isn't high enough, and that raises the perceived value of an architect's knowledge. Joe Blow Architect, Inc. can pull the same tactic and raise the perception that architects are just big-ego prima donna decorators.
Donna - the most fundamental thing any architect can do is to show they know how to manage the money and manage the schedule and deliver both on time and within the agreed parameters. You can't imagine how much damage is done by architects who recklessly or incompetently disregard both (at least enough to do real damage). We can establish a really rigorous definition of what an minimum "acceptable" set of documents should contain - our office routinely gets comments from owners on how "thorough" our sets are compared to our competitors and, frankly, I don't know how you can do any less. That said, there's a lot to the perception persisting in our client's eyes that architects don't do "enough" for the lowly fees we do get.
One way AIA Georgia is trying to help is that we've had 2 members on a working committee that's finally finished going through the state project manual/contracts to align what a 'basic' set of services is and what's truly 'add services'. Sounds rudimentary, but if you can't even get to an agreement on what these 2 things are (and it varied wildly depending on the project, institution, etc.), then you can't accurately determine the value of your fees. Since they are the largest single purchaser of architectural services in the state (public or private), getting this fixed has been paramount. Next, we're going in to update the fee schedules to make sure they align with these new scopes. Along the way, we're going to be pushing hard to raise the overall fee schedules to make them more commensurate with the work being asked for.
Why does all that matter? If we can get the largest purchaser to raise the bar on fees, it'll trickle back through the overall marketplace at the top tiers. I can't save the guy willing to do gas stations for a 2% fee, but I can make student housing fees more attractive to good architects. Right now, we're tied to a benchmark that was set 60 years ago - the only way we'll get out is to either reset the benchmark higher (what we're doing) or destroy it altogether. Doing the latter may be much, much harder...
On the debt topic, another view on the downside of Germany's free tuition for all.
That article criticizes the German method for the specific reason that it is based on tracking kids starting around 12 for academic promise and sorting only the most promising 28% (almost a third!) into the higher ed track, while the rest get channelled into work-prep programs. The author claims that if the US adopts this method it will only further calcify our class system. However, the author is completely ignoring the fact that essentially, because of the high cost of college, the US status quo is an even EARLIER and MORE calcified tracking system - those who are born with a silver spoon in their mouth and those who are not. Period. This birth status influences their entire educational career starting from pre-K and determines who gets to flourish through and beyond the higher ed system and who doesn't, thanks to needing to secure giant loans to pay for college.
I'd far rather have the German method.
In fact, the author even points to the fact that 23 of 100 matriculating University students did NOT come from parents who went to University as proof that the German model is somehow failing the working class. But given the prestige of the University education we're talking about - basically Ivy League - I'd say 23% is pretty good, probably higher than what we're achieving with our class-based system. Are 23% of Harvard's matriculating freshmen from non university educated parents? No way.
The author also claims that this system is a failure because it creates a society of two classes - worker and academic - in which one (academic) is seen as more important than the other and to which the other strives. The author does not explain why this is a problem. The Germans obviously respect the working class, as they themselves state in the article and (more substantively) as is proven by the amount of money they put into training them, matching them with jobs, and in the wages of those jobs and the services provided to the workers. We fail on all of these levels. If you are really comparing Germany to the US you have to note that they really do treat their working class much better than we do, and meanwhile there is nothing wrong with having a higher class for the working class to strive towards - as long as you're providing the tools to make that transition, which obviously they are since all of education is free from birth on up and they've been working on increasing the stat I mentioned above.
I do not see how this system is a failure at all - much less how it could possibly be considered a failure when contrasted with the US status quo. Our class system is MUCH more calcified already, it's based virtually wholly on inherited wealth, and our working class is both far more disdained and far more poorly treated than theirs.
manta, I completely agree with you. I posted that article because I do worry that the podcast tends to be one-sided, as we all mostly agree with one another, so I wanted to bring in another view.
Good trade schools and jobs that pay well but don't require a college degree would be a huge benefit to the US, IMO.
I read this quote today, I've read it before but had forgotten it -it's a good one, from an architecture hero.
We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist...The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.
- Buckminster Fuller
I went to JFK and as an American was somehow on this pseudo US diploma/gymnasium track. I was a C student except for math prior to moving to the states after completing 7th grade. I received straight A's in the US and learned nothing new in math until senior year, seriously...............many Germans I studied with while returning for university there actually were former carpenters or even a truck driver (woman who received the sole 1 (A+) out of 100+ students for the year long studio). So if you do not get tracked into the Uni there are alternate routes afterwards..........when I was applying for a job there a German fellow student advised I put a photo of myself on my resume and list if I was Protestant or Catholic. She told me this was standard and I noted that was absurd and illegal by US standards. The social class structure is obvious in Germany but when being a worker is fine it matters less (see mantaray above)........I will still argue though the US could never handle the social maturity required for free higher eductio. - to accept themselves as happy hard working members of society and not believe because they exist every opportunity should be offered to them somehow regardless of inept qualities...we would rather get free hugs or Honorarry Phd then face the fact maybe most of us were not cut out for college. Building on this mentality the financial institutions sale money making loans as class opportunity. Borrow and you to can be the first to graduate college, like every other American of the last two generations......... We are selling ourselves debt so that we can tell ourselves we deserve this chance not on merit but on pipe dreams and possibilities.......................................... The American Dream is a lottery ticket, everyone gets to pay for it but only a few win........................ And guess what - we like it that ways - its worth it. Its all marketing....I read this in the subway the other day, an advertisement for TCI (tech institute), couldn't believe how accurate it was, but it was a NYC subway car - "why you should not go to college: you are a millionaire, you are smarter than Einstein, you are a professional athlete, self improvement. .." I am paraphrasing and my memory can be fuzzy, but that seems about right... it was followed with you go to college to gain skills to essentially work..........
@Donna re: your frog in pot of boiling water analogy, see James Fallows long standing corrective here or here
Very funny, Nam. When I really think about it I never believed that you could slowly boil a frog that way, I just know the cliche!
yeah and it's funny because the cliche as used always fits.
ngram has starchitect going back to 1986?
Quit messing with my legend building Nam! Damn interwebs!
^ According to Oxford Dictionary 'starchitect' originated in the 1940's! Originally used for stars who designed their own homes. Not sure if it was re-invented later with the current meaning.
If that is the case midlander then the only reason the term was emloyed much later was to insult a famous architect. Its the equivalent of describing a very famous and successful actor as a Kardashian or something, say in 30 years when everyone has forgotten what a Kardashian is.
I want to point this out - I read my oldest daughters report card today with a very interesting grading system for 1st grade. E, G, S,...and some numbers
Madison had a lot of 2's under the main grade. The 2 = "Makes productive use of Time".
I believe that means she "tries", which means by traditional grading she has a "C"?!?!?
Maddie had a lot of "Works Independently" for the creatives, a nice little middle finger as dad sees it.
So let's see where this is all going: we over analyze very early learning experiences in our youth, we make highly recommended paths for success based on very probable gradings, and claim our system is more what? caring? cool? opportunist?
Anyway...when I got to the straight up teacher's comments she notes essentially Maddie needs to increase organizational skills. I asked Madison about this
@Donna with regard to Bucky - Madison a 6 year old said, literally
"Dad you are a slave!" - Maddie
"What? I'm organized and you need to be as well." - Dad
"Dad you are a slave because you do what you are told!" - Maddie
Dad went and opened a beer followed by at least 3 more before this post. Bucky was right.
Not sure about my US commentary here, so far...I have my doubts now.
Lars a German once told me on my way to the Tuesday Dorm Bar in Dortmund, DE - he noted that if it wasn't for the US, Japan wouldn't be all Nintendo and shit...fun
cool is better than smart?
Ha, I don't think you need to worry about Madison, she's clearly a genius.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.