@john harkes: yer a flipping idiot as well... uruguay and paraguay are located south america. we could still see an all-south american final you f*cking dipsh*t.
"Defense always wins championships... its too bad- Offense is just too much fun to watch and Argentina cant give it up."
Give it up? Where exactly did you see their vaunted offense with "the best player in the world"?...what Argentina failed to do is fucking show up, and they basically stopped playing after taking the 2nd goal....a disgrace.
And Spain barely showed up, right at the end...and that ain't gonna cut it against Germany.
and, oh yea, what's with missing crucial penalty kicks in the quarterfinals of a World Cup? Maybe these players should actually friggin' practice kicking them...
that first goal from paraguay was clean. if they had made their PK it would have completely changed the game.
villa's got the chops, but i think your right, they don't have the legs to take on germany and survive, especially after the thumping they showed argentina. should be an interesting last few games. kinda sad it's winding down already.
I'm seriously nervous right now. We've lost semi-finals in 1994, 1998, 2000 and 2004 - now it's time to win... I'm about to prepare myself to scream myself senseless at a big screen, dressed in orange crap from a thrift shop...
yes Holz...diego had a great tournament. carried his team like villa is doing with spain.
honestly, the Robben diving in the Brazil game completely turned me off to the dutch. I thought it was tasteless. He was a little better yesterday for the Uruguay match.
I believe that second goal, which changed the complexion of the game was offsides. It will be argued to the grave, but IF RVP was in an offside position when the ball was shot, he did have a part in that play. RVP didn't touch it, but he doesn't have to for the rule to still be applied in this case.
The best thing to come of the tourny so far is the possibility of a new nation to this club. It is crazy that only 7 nations have won it. Hopefully Spain can hold off the German machine today and then we will be guaranteed a new champion.
Overall it has been a fantastic world cup though, IMO.
To me it's been a pretty mediocre World Cup, having seen some fantastic ones. A new nation winning would be nice, though, and I'd rather see NL - Spain than Germany yet another time.
The offside Dutch goal and Robben flopping is par for the course in this sport - and not just with Robben by any fucking means - so good for the Dutch for winning while taking advantage of FIFA's bragged about "human error". Besides, that player was offside by half a leg and didn't touch the ball...come on. In any case, this is what FIFA wants, and it's what they get.
The flopping too is FIFA's fault because they don't direct the refs to put a stop to it and punish it with yellow and red cards, so the players know they can get free kicks or penalty kicks by doing it...hell, I would do it too if it got me that kind of prize.
the dutch have a ridiculous win streak and defeated the number 1 team in the world, yet they still don't get the respect they deserve in the media.
robben certainly sells it, but i would say 90% of the time, he's legitimately taken off his feet. he's a full tilt runner.
also, floran had a great tournament, but i don't see why he is the front runner for the golden ball. uruguay played second rate teams all the way through the tournament, and the only time they were truly tested, they lost handily. not to mention they had to cheat to even get that chance.
sneijder on the other had, single-handedly dismantled the number 1 team in the world, and lead his team through 6 victories and is currently in 3rd place (no draws people).
the dutch get no love, but i think they prefer it that way.
p.s. van persie needs to just move out of the way and let grown people attack the goal. i think though the fact that NL doesn't rely on the single forward is the reason they are doing so well, and are different from dutch teams of the past.
For me, I don't give a damn right now that the entire world isn't really enthousiastic about the way we play. Simply put: we've been "the most attractive team" numerous times. Whether it was 1974, 1978, 1998, euro 2000, euro 2008 - we've always been playing good, attractive football - but at those times we've lost to more efficient teams. So right now, I'm glad that we have professional bastards (like Van Bommel), people that fall down on every slight touch (like Robben), and some luck (with offside goals and own goals). Simply put: I'm stoked for the finals: who cares about what the world thinks, let's finally win this - we've waited for a spot in the final for 32 years...
and the van bronckhorst goal was a keeper error? please, that was the goal of the tournament/lifetime. if i were the keeper i would have fallen to my knees and cried at the sight of such a work of art.
Well, actually the goal by Van Bronckhorst wasn't a "once in a lifetime": in a cup match between Feyenoord and PSV, he scored in a pretty similar way. Think different shirts, but other than that it's hard to tell a difference.
sorry, dot, for me it's not even close to one of the best ones. But I go back to the 1970 one, (although I was young) which had probably the best WC game ever and Pele' in the final, and I also remember a great one in which Italy had to beat very strong Brazil and Argentina sides to reach the final with Germany.
Yes, there have been some good games (there always is in the WC) but also too many midfield slogs with a couple of moments of attack (including the first half of yesterday's game). And, excuse me, the awful officiating is way more than just a footnote.
God that was painful...Spain hasn't learned how to apply the coup de grace to its opponent...also maybe practice how to do a counterattack where you actually PASS the ball (maybe study how Italy put Germany away four years ago in the beautiful action that led to Del Piero's goal).
To be clear on my ealier post...Netherlands totally deserve to be in the final. Sneijder is a candidate for the Balon De Or....no doubt. He is fantastic. Dot...I would say it is 50% of the time on Robben "selling it". For me, he is total crap. The rest of the team is fine .
Van Bronckhorst's goal was 1:1000..but that is why it is one of the goals of the tourny. (very similar to the SA goal against Mexico.) Super strike!
and as 'usernametaken' stated you need a little of all these ingredients to get to the final.
So...in the end. who is it going to be?
I hope Spain..only because I am a Barca supporter and my other two teams are out :) I like their style..their philosophy and they play the way futbol should be played IMO.
Their philosophy? Psheldahl, you need some soccer classes...
ever hear the phrase "Més que un club"? any idea what it means? Those Barça players are there with the spanish selection in South-Afraica merely because a legal imposition. Spanish fasicsm, francoism, is still alive.
And if you are (I really doubt it) a Barça supporter, you either don't know what team are you supporting at all or you're just being cynical. And, as a Catalan, I fins that to be quite insulting.
I am sorry that your Catalan roots forbid you to root for the Spanish national team. This does not mean that nobody else can.
I believe I was very respectful of the Netherland team...I quote myself "Netherlands totally deserve to be in the final".
You do not need to doubt that I am a Barca supporter, just know that I do not support your Dutch team. No cynicism, no conspiracy, I just prefer the Spanish in this particular game, Catalan and all ( really legal imposition? Any one of your Catalan heros could have 'retired' from the national team...yet they are there! hmmm. ) Don't take everything so personal, you are so Catalan! :)
ps.. anytime you want to grab a ball for some futbol classes I am available :)
don't worry psheldahl..medit just likes to be offended when anyone says anything about spain... he doesn't even like the world cup.. club soccer only for him.
i think robben is hit 90% of the time..but that a normal male would fall about 40%. The man picks up both feet after a tackle more than ronaldo. with that said i think he completely changes the dutch attack. the difference between him being on the field and him being off is night and day. the dutch go from being a mildly attacking side to a very dangerous side...to me he's the player that has changed the team the most with his play.
i agree with emilio that it has been a mediocre cup... the draws made for the best teams to play each other very early and it made for some fairly obviously mismatched semifinals. it also gave the two teams in the final a fairly easy pass into the finals...basically win one tough game and you're in.
i think you'd have to give the golden ball to villa..no one player has carried his team as much.
how van borren has not received two or three red cards is beyond me.. it's like watching the NBA in how certain teams get respect and others don't. if he were playing for the US he would've been sent off a number of times for straight reds in this tourney for fouls he wasn't even given yellows for somehow.
panzer ran out of fuel. ozil was in slow motion, so were most of his team mates. i am happy that a team will hold up the cup for the first time...
spain is the best team so far.. for them it was a repeat performance from two years ago in uefa cup.
germany is a young team and if they improve their hyper modern ways they are still a great team to watch. but now that their spirit is broken, uruguay is a perfect candidate for the third place bronze. third place lifts you on the rankings about 10-15 steps, so there is nothing to under estimate about its merits...
agree on Robben, lars: he reminds me a bit of Zidane - maybe not as singularly excellent and without his lethal temper - but just like him he changes the game with his presence and can kick those wonderfully placed assist passes that spark something...and he has an arm-flopping style of running which resembles Zidane's. He and Sneijder working together are a lethal combination and have been one of the highlights of this tournament.
I like this final match a lot...hard to know who will get it (although I do know that Spain better not miss those golden chances like they did today), but I'm glad whoever wins will win it for the first time.
Psheldahl, just one reminder: Spain is the only state, as far as I know, where soccer players are forced to play for the Spanish team, and if they don't do it they are fined BY LAW.
Of course this case has neved happened because if a player, like Barça's Oleguer did some time ago, say explicitly that he, as a Catalan, could not play with the Spanish team because of personal political reasons the spanish coach would let him out of the team -just to avoid all that legal mess-.
But that particular law is there, and with so many other fascist laws. If you people had any *real* idea of what this State is all about you would understand it. I'm afraid all you know are just topics, perpetuated by typical british/american media news' reporters who, not by surprise, are usually based (and consequently biased) in Madrid.
Puyol, who scored yesterday, is a Catalan. But he's also a professional player. And he, as a professional, has chosen to win a WC, even if he has to wear a spanish shirt. But that's just only because there's a law that, unlike other modern democracies like the british one -where a Welsh or Scottish player could win the WC with their own national shirt- Catalan players can't because of a fuckin' law done in Madrid. Pure fascism. Pure francoism - as always. P.I.G.S., that's all they are.
This is Puyol, last year, scoring in Madrid's Bernabeu stadium:
And what he's kissing after the goal is not a spanish flag, but a Catalan NATIONAL flag (the one that Barça's captains always wear). Because up until now, there's no law in the Spanish state's soccer league that forbids you to wear a Catalan flag even if that's a question of time. Spanish politics are returning slowly to the Franco years dangerously.
Puyol is there in South Africa wearing a spanish shirt because he has no other choice. If he had the choice -as he has stated in several interviews- he would be there in South Africa with the Catalan shirt. And if he celebrates a goal is because he's a "professional". And as such, he wants that cup as any other soccer professional. Just that.
Larslarson, darling, yeah, whatever you say.
And one more time, GO Holland, save us from all that wave of catalanophobia that will surface -once again- if those fascists win.
Medit
I don't understand why you say 'whatever'...your first comment in this thread stated 'club competitions that's where the real soccer is at'...and you said this before other times when we've talked about soccer in relation to the world cup.
you could almost put your comments on repeat from the last world cup..and/or within this thread...basically against Spain/pro Catalonia and you think world cup soccer is a poor display of the sport...although i think many would argue that it's a pretty pure display since every nation can't buy the best player at every position as club teams can and end up having to develop a team and chemistry over years.
I understand (obviously not fully) that you believe Catalonia deserves its own national team. But at the moment they don't have nation status and 'their' players play for 'Spain' and don't have another choice. Do you really think they would even qualify though? I doubt it. Where are the Welsh? the Scottish? all at home. Of course as an American i don't fully understand the Catalan struggle..but i don't think I'll learn more from your slanted view than i would from a spanish newspaper.
ok, lars, I agree with your last sentence... you actually would (or would not) learn more from my slanted view than you would from a SLANTED spanish newspaper's view.
And in the end, all you would get would be merely your own SLANTED view about things that happen in places that you, unfortunately and probably, don't know too much about.
On the argument about if Catalonia is a nation or not -are you familiar with the term "stateless nations"?- I won't discuss it with you and not here in Archinect, but, of course, you're completely wrong. Catalonia is a nation, not 'less nation' than what the US, the UK, Scotland or Flanders are - wether these nations have a political state to support them or not. Of course, first, we should agree that 'nation' is not a political term but a cultural one, if you don't agree with this axiom then the rest of the (endless) discussion would be quite futile.
Anyway, enjoy the WC final next sunday... some of us have better things to do this weekend in Barcelona. While others in this city will celebrate it if Spain wins, we will march for our own rights as Catalans. In fact, this will be a perfect example on what 'nations' really are: one specific, physical place (Barcelona, Catalonia) and two different attitudes (one celebrating Spain's victory, if that's the case) and the other demonstrating against the Nth agression of the Spanish state against Catalonia. 2 different attitudes/positions = 2 nations. One of these nations is Spain... guess which one is the other.
oh, and about that thing of "club competitions that's where the real soccer is at"... of course you should take that with a grain of salt.
Clubs have all year round -maybe two or 3 years- to develop a style of playing, an idiosyncrasy as a team if you will... national teams -or 'state teams', as is the case of Spain- group together for a month, and, basically, do what they can. And if Spain is doin' something worthy this time is because there were 7 (7!!) Barça players against Germany, most of them Catalans.
And that, basically, answers your question on what would Catalonia (its coach is now Johan Cruyff, by the way) would do in an international competition. Puyol, Xavi, Piqué, Busquets, Valdés, Bojan... more than enough to win, at least, an Eurocup.
Even in basketball, Pau Gasol and Barça (the current european champions) would do, I think, pretty well.
medit.
fair enough.. i admit i don't fully understand, but this is really a thread about the world cup and the teams in it. i realize i can't fully understand or empathize with what you're going through.
catalonia doesn't have enough depth i wouldn't think to make a world cup... the key players on Spain's team are Spanish not Catalonians. You'd have a decent midfield and defense..but the guy scoring all the goals? Basically you'd have two teams that would be good but not great. Villa, Torres, Iniesta, all the goalkeepers, Xabi, Pedro, etc. By my count 4 of the 8 players that play for Barcelona on the team are Catalans...correct? Puyol, Xavi, Pique and Busquets. Villa, Iniesta, and Pedro aren't..
that's really not american hockey. it's floor hockey on roller skates..which we don't really play over here...so i don't know if that's ironic or not.
Ok, Medit, the day that Catalonia is in the World Cup I might like them so much that I will root for them....
but at least get your football facts straight:
"national teams -or 'state teams', as is the case of Spain- group together for a month, and, basically, do what they can."
National teams are grouped together for a four year stretch of preliminary games and competition games, both for the European championship (and other corresponding ones in other parts of the world), then the two year preliminaries to qualify for the World Cup, then if they make it, the WC itself, so, unless a new coach comes in and radically revamps the team, most of the players will have played together for more than just a month.
@Medit: that's why I like Oleguer so much: at least he takes a strong stand for his principles...
Other than that: try to think the spanish national team without all the players from Catalunya. They simply wouldn't have the quality they have right now. And in comparison to other parts of Spain, Catalunya would probably have one of the best teams. Just look at the players they have: some of the best defenders from the Primera division, some of the mest midfieldplayers and some of the best attackers. A real striker lacks, and I'm not that sure that the goalie is up to par. But it would've been a team to reach the quarter-final in this worldcup...
Even if it's only a test match: the Catalunyan team beat Argentina 4-2 last december...
And Larslarson: throughout the season, the national teams meet for a maximum of a couple of days. That's not enough to get automatisms in a team, so the tournaments are the only time to really work on that. That's probably also one of the key points for the spanish team: 6 players from Barcelona, who know eachother good enough to know what the others are thinking in the field...
But, to make things short: I think I'll be drunk for a week if we win, and severely depressed and in dire need of anti-depressants if we lose. And: I hope Van Persie finally gets to show his skills... hup holland hup!
i'd like to disagree with my original statement that most of the key players on the spanish team are spanish... i think they'd both have quality..but i do also think that both teams would be lacking in depth and quality if they seperated.
usernametaken... i realize that the national teams only meet for a few days and rosters are highly variable dependent on the importance of the matches and the club schedules. during any one cycle a national team can have any number of rosters... bob bradley has been commended by some for capping the most players in any one cycle. so i can understand why national teams don't have the best chemistry and also understand why Spain plays well together since they're basically Barcelona.
i guess what i like about world cup soccer is that it's a nation's best against another. each team has to develop players over a four year cycle and also have an eye to the future...what's so crushing in losing in the world cup is that most players 28 and up won't be around for the next...so you constantly have to keep cycling players. but that's more interesting than simply having a larger budget that allows you to buy the best player at every position...at least to me. i do still like club soccer/football and enjoy champions league and all that..but i do think there's something very special about national team competitions.
medit.
fair enough.. i admit i don't fully understand, but this is really a thread about the world cup and the teams in it. i realize i can't fully understand or empathize with what you're going through.
hey, I know... my intervention was merely to state some facts that would help to better understand some things about the spanish team (and some about Barça)... it's not that I'm trying to add some archinecters to my -our, Catalans- personal cause...
I'm one of those May 24, 2004 Archinecters too, and I know how difficult is to convince some people here... ;)
I know I've introduced some politics, but they aren't offtopic at all... after all, as you say in your last message "there's something very special about national team competitions." - Of course there is: nationalism. Devotion and empathy to one's nation's representatives in a sports' competition, i.e., patriotism.
I find this "specialness" to be very normal -as in being a standard behaviour, not specially justified from a rational point of view, just that is a very common attitude anywhere in the globe-.
And according to the values of that mix of specialness, patriotism and collective emotional catharsis you should also find quite "normal" or at least acceptable -and I guess you do- that I, and others, want a Catalan national team for the WC in Brasil 2014. Cause I see the spanish team, with their spanish flag and i feel anything but affection, love, representation, devotion, empathy... you name it.
There's this way of analyze sport -technically-, and then there's this other phenomenon of one's nation act of representation. Both ways, rational and emotional, are part of the same game. I don't think one of them is more important than the other.
I can see that Spain plays well -because they are merely replicating what Barça does-, and even there are some Catalans there.
And, still, all I desire is to see them lose next sunday. This would seem a contradiction. But it's not, because of the emotional side of the game.
I'm human, you know. Not a robot. If I were a tactics' dissection machine I would probably support Spain. But as I'm flesh and bones, I say f*ck them.
Oh, and I know we haven't a remarkable Catalan striker. But you know that Xavi is the brain, soul, and orchestral director of Barça -and now of Spain-. And most people who presume to know about soccer knows that Messi, for example, without Xavi -and you can see that when he plays with Argentina- is not that good. Cause midfields are usually the ones who win championships. Strikers can win a match by themselves in 1 particular game with an isolated stroke of genius, but leagues and tournaments can't be won without a decent team's organizer. And Xavi has been the best in Europe these past two years.
that's really not american hockey. it's floor hockey on roller skates..which we don't really play over here...so i don't know if that's ironic or not.
er, sorry, I meant an American cup ... not American hockey.
Roller hockey isn't too popular here either -even if it seems that we play that thing quite well, on global terms- but it was an example of the legal and political strategies that some catalan sports' federations are trying to use to avoid the vetoes of the Spanish central government -you can read the "Fresno case" link that I added in my previous message... that one was the most scandalous, pure Italian mafia, I've ever seen-.
The Rink Hockey American Championship was originally an all-american national teams competition (if I'm not mistaken), but since the Catalan players were quite good with it and couldn't play in Europe -because of the spanish veto-, they were accepted as another team there (it seems that Germany played too, I'm not sure why...)
And that's what was ironic, if you're a Catalan and want to play with your Catalan team -in a sport where you have many chances to win it all as is the case or roller hockey- you have to "escape" (exile?) to South America, far away from the Spanish government's spaces of influence.
Ah, and Catalonia won...
so we, Catalans are the "American" champions ... see the irony? ... ;)
Emilio,
hey, you can support whatever team you want, of course... you know I wasn't telling anyone who to support, just clarifying that the equation Spain = Barça has lots of angles to be considered... and some are, I think, quite important.
Imagine there was a nazi team that played very well... would you support them? They play very well, and you like them, but there's something about that flag they wear that makes you feel a little bit "uncomfortable".
I'm not comparing it with Spain's team -I know using the word nazi is a bit extreme-, but you get my point.
And that argument that if Catalonia played separately from Spain would have less chances to win a WC is obvious.
But... who cares? Most of you knew that the USA had little chances to win this WC. Was that an argument to not support your team? or to ask to play together with Mexico just because then you would have a better team and more chances to win?
usernametaken,
yes! Oleguer is one of my heroes!
and hup holland hup!!! you know there will be thousands of Catalans supporting Holland this next Sunday!
(and you know how Barça -specially during the Van Gaal years- was almost like a dutch selection: Kluivert, Cocu, the De Boer twins, Zenden, etc... there's a strong link there, and Cruyff was the first one... ;)
Wow, Medit, you just couldn't resist playing the Nazi card, could you? Then you weakly qualify it, like everyone does when they pull that trick, by adding the "not saying it's the same" qualifier, but you very well know you've used the word and there it is and there's no qualifying it.
I'm not touching that one with a ten foot pole, but I will say that if the Catalan players really thought that the country whose flag they play under were even approaching the Nazi regime then they probably would not be there (and would also not be gassed and placed in ovens if they refused to participate).
Agree that Xavi is a great, great player and the backbone of the Spain side, but you really diss Messi in a way that Xavi himself even does not:
"... Barcelona midfielder Xavi Hernández has refused to compare Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo because, he says, the Portuguese winger would come off so badly.
Xavi revealed that, as well as Ronaldo, he is a big admirer of Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard but insisted that Messi is simply untouchable. "Messi is the best player in the world by a distance, he's the No1," Xavi said. "There is nobody at all like him. I don't want to compare him to anyone because it'll just damage the other player if I do. For me Messi is easily the best.
All due respect to Ronaldo and all the other great players on the world stage but Messi is proving that he is better than everyone else. The world can see that he's the boss. I've never seen anything like it. In a game, in the training sessions, never. I wouldn't swap him for any player."
I've seen Messi do incredible things on the field that have nothing to do with Xavi. The fact that he came up small in the WC doesn't take away from his talent that much...it was a mediocre Argentina, that's all.
2010 world cup
@john harkes: yer a flipping idiot as well... uruguay and paraguay are located south america. we could still see an all-south american final you f*cking dipsh*t.
"Defense always wins championships... its too bad- Offense is just too much fun to watch and Argentina cant give it up."
Give it up? Where exactly did you see their vaunted offense with "the best player in the world"?...what Argentina failed to do is fucking show up, and they basically stopped playing after taking the 2nd goal....a disgrace.
And Spain barely showed up, right at the end...and that ain't gonna cut it against Germany.
AND WHY THE FUCK WAS MILITO SITTING ON THE BENCH THIS WORLD CUP?!?
...I guess Maradona doesn't follow the european leagues and Champions.
Impressive germany, and lucky spain.
Poor Messi went the way of the Rooney this cup it seems. That quadruple defense will kill your stats.
and, oh yea, what's with missing crucial penalty kicks in the quarterfinals of a World Cup? Maybe these players should actually friggin' practice kicking them...
spain got reallllly effing lucky...
that first goal from paraguay was clean. if they had made their PK it would have completely changed the game.
villa's got the chops, but i think your right, they don't have the legs to take on germany and survive, especially after the thumping they showed argentina. should be an interesting last few games. kinda sad it's winding down already.
*you're
is spain really considering benching torres in favor of fabregas, who has an injury?
ok, torres hasn't scored - but if it wasn't for villa, spain would be out. villa's scored every spain goal save one.
how badly does spain want to lose to DE?!?
I realllly hope Uruguay sees defeat today. It should have been Ghana playing the Netherlands.
Also, does anyone know where to stream these games online?
univision.com
I'm seriously nervous right now. We've lost semi-finals in 1994, 1998, 2000 and 2004 - now it's time to win... I'm about to prepare myself to scream myself senseless at a big screen, dressed in orange crap from a thrift shop...
"univision.com"
ah, thanks. completely overlooked that link at the beginning of the thread.
wow. poor diego. rough loss. FIFA seriously needs to get on the dives and offsides goals.
yes Holz...diego had a great tournament. carried his team like villa is doing with spain.
honestly, the Robben diving in the Brazil game completely turned me off to the dutch. I thought it was tasteless. He was a little better yesterday for the Uruguay match.
I believe that second goal, which changed the complexion of the game was offsides. It will be argued to the grave, but IF RVP was in an offside position when the ball was shot, he did have a part in that play. RVP didn't touch it, but he doesn't have to for the rule to still be applied in this case.
The best thing to come of the tourny so far is the possibility of a new nation to this club. It is crazy that only 7 nations have won it. Hopefully Spain can hold off the German machine today and then we will be guaranteed a new champion.
Overall it has been a fantastic world cup though, IMO.
To me it's been a pretty mediocre World Cup, having seen some fantastic ones. A new nation winning would be nice, though, and I'd rather see NL - Spain than Germany yet another time.
The offside Dutch goal and Robben flopping is par for the course in this sport - and not just with Robben by any fucking means - so good for the Dutch for winning while taking advantage of FIFA's bragged about "human error". Besides, that player was offside by half a leg and didn't touch the ball...come on. In any case, this is what FIFA wants, and it's what they get.
The flopping too is FIFA's fault because they don't direct the refs to put a stop to it and punish it with yellow and red cards, so the players know they can get free kicks or penalty kicks by doing it...hell, I would do it too if it got me that kind of prize.
the dutch have a ridiculous win streak and defeated the number 1 team in the world, yet they still don't get the respect they deserve in the media.
robben certainly sells it, but i would say 90% of the time, he's legitimately taken off his feet. he's a full tilt runner.
also, floran had a great tournament, but i don't see why he is the front runner for the golden ball. uruguay played second rate teams all the way through the tournament, and the only time they were truly tested, they lost handily. not to mention they had to cheat to even get that chance.
sneijder on the other had, single-handedly dismantled the number 1 team in the world, and lead his team through 6 victories and is currently in 3rd place (no draws people).
the dutch get no love, but i think they prefer it that way.
disagree emilio. poor officiating is a footnote, but this is the most competitive, unpredictable, and dramatic cup i've seen in my lifetime.
p.s. van persie needs to just move out of the way and let grown people attack the goal. i think though the fact that NL doesn't rely on the single forward is the reason they are doing so well, and are different from dutch teams of the past.
For me, I don't give a damn right now that the entire world isn't really enthousiastic about the way we play. Simply put: we've been "the most attractive team" numerous times. Whether it was 1974, 1978, 1998, euro 2000, euro 2008 - we've always been playing good, attractive football - but at those times we've lost to more efficient teams. So right now, I'm glad that we have professional bastards (like Van Bommel), people that fall down on every slight touch (like Robben), and some luck (with offside goals and own goals). Simply put: I'm stoked for the finals: who cares about what the world thinks, let's finally win this - we've waited for a spot in the final for 32 years...
and the van bronckhorst goal was a keeper error? please, that was the goal of the tournament/lifetime. if i were the keeper i would have fallen to my knees and cried at the sight of such a work of art.
Well, actually the goal by Van Bronckhorst wasn't a "once in a lifetime": in a cup match between Feyenoord and PSV, he scored in a pretty similar way. Think different shirts, but other than that it's hard to tell a difference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBg0FQ-eSkk
saying it's once in a lifetime because of what was on the line.
sorry, dot, for me it's not even close to one of the best ones. But I go back to the 1970 one, (although I was young) which had probably the best WC game ever and Pele' in the final, and I also remember a great one in which Italy had to beat very strong Brazil and Argentina sides to reach the final with Germany.
Yes, there have been some good games (there always is in the WC) but also too many midfield slogs with a couple of moments of attack (including the first half of yesterday's game). And, excuse me, the awful officiating is way more than just a footnote.
Germany ain't looking so tough right now...
God that was painful...Spain hasn't learned how to apply the coup de grace to its opponent...also maybe practice how to do a counterattack where you actually PASS the ball (maybe study how Italy put Germany away four years ago in the beautiful action that led to Del Piero's goal).
Damn.... GO HOLLAND!!!!
Shit.
GO HOLLAND!
GO HOLLAND!
GO HOLLAND!
(please...]
Viva Espana! Spain is going to take this.
To be clear on my ealier post...Netherlands totally deserve to be in the final. Sneijder is a candidate for the Balon De Or....no doubt. He is fantastic. Dot...I would say it is 50% of the time on Robben "selling it". For me, he is total crap. The rest of the team is fine .
Van Bronckhorst's goal was 1:1000..but that is why it is one of the goals of the tourny. (very similar to the SA goal against Mexico.) Super strike!
and as 'usernametaken' stated you need a little of all these ingredients to get to the final.
So...in the end. who is it going to be?
I hope Spain..only because I am a Barca supporter and my other two teams are out :) I like their style..their philosophy and they play the way futbol should be played IMO.
Go Spain!.
Their philosophy? Psheldahl, you need some soccer classes...
ever hear the phrase "Més que un club"? any idea what it means? Those Barça players are there with the spanish selection in South-Afraica merely because a legal imposition. Spanish fasicsm, francoism, is still alive.
And if you are (I really doubt it) a Barça supporter, you either don't know what team are you supporting at all or you're just being cynical. And, as a Catalan, I fins that to be quite insulting.
Go Holland!
Medit...actually I do know what that means.
I am sorry that your Catalan roots forbid you to root for the Spanish national team. This does not mean that nobody else can.
I believe I was very respectful of the Netherland team...I quote myself "Netherlands totally deserve to be in the final".
You do not need to doubt that I am a Barca supporter, just know that I do not support your Dutch team. No cynicism, no conspiracy, I just prefer the Spanish in this particular game, Catalan and all ( really legal imposition? Any one of your Catalan heros could have 'retired' from the national team...yet they are there! hmmm. ) Don't take everything so personal, you are so Catalan! :)
ps.. anytime you want to grab a ball for some futbol classes I am available :)
don't worry psheldahl..medit just likes to be offended when anyone says anything about spain... he doesn't even like the world cup.. club soccer only for him.
i think robben is hit 90% of the time..but that a normal male would fall about 40%. The man picks up both feet after a tackle more than ronaldo. with that said i think he completely changes the dutch attack. the difference between him being on the field and him being off is night and day. the dutch go from being a mildly attacking side to a very dangerous side...to me he's the player that has changed the team the most with his play.
i agree with emilio that it has been a mediocre cup... the draws made for the best teams to play each other very early and it made for some fairly obviously mismatched semifinals. it also gave the two teams in the final a fairly easy pass into the finals...basically win one tough game and you're in.
i think you'd have to give the golden ball to villa..no one player has carried his team as much.
how van borren has not received two or three red cards is beyond me.. it's like watching the NBA in how certain teams get respect and others don't. if he were playing for the US he would've been sent off a number of times for straight reds in this tourney for fouls he wasn't even given yellows for somehow.
panzer ran out of fuel. ozil was in slow motion, so were most of his team mates. i am happy that a team will hold up the cup for the first time...
spain is the best team so far.. for them it was a repeat performance from two years ago in uefa cup.
germany is a young team and if they improve their hyper modern ways they are still a great team to watch. but now that their spirit is broken, uruguay is a perfect candidate for the third place bronze. third place lifts you on the rankings about 10-15 steps, so there is nothing to under estimate about its merits...
agree on Robben, lars: he reminds me a bit of Zidane - maybe not as singularly excellent and without his lethal temper - but just like him he changes the game with his presence and can kick those wonderfully placed assist passes that spark something...and he has an arm-flopping style of running which resembles Zidane's. He and Sneijder working together are a lethal combination and have been one of the highlights of this tournament.
I like this final match a lot...hard to know who will get it (although I do know that Spain better not miss those golden chances like they did today), but I'm glad whoever wins will win it for the first time.
Psheldahl, just one reminder: Spain is the only state, as far as I know, where soccer players are forced to play for the Spanish team, and if they don't do it they are fined BY LAW.
Of course this case has neved happened because if a player, like Barça's Oleguer did some time ago, say explicitly that he, as a Catalan, could not play with the Spanish team because of personal political reasons the spanish coach would let him out of the team -just to avoid all that legal mess-.
But that particular law is there, and with so many other fascist laws. If you people had any *real* idea of what this State is all about you would understand it. I'm afraid all you know are just topics, perpetuated by typical british/american media news' reporters who, not by surprise, are usually based (and consequently biased) in Madrid.
Puyol, who scored yesterday, is a Catalan. But he's also a professional player. And he, as a professional, has chosen to win a WC, even if he has to wear a spanish shirt. But that's just only because there's a law that, unlike other modern democracies like the british one -where a Welsh or Scottish player could win the WC with their own national shirt- Catalan players can't because of a fuckin' law done in Madrid. Pure fascism. Pure francoism - as always. P.I.G.S., that's all they are.
This is Puyol, last year, scoring in Madrid's Bernabeu stadium:
And what he's kissing after the goal is not a spanish flag, but a Catalan NATIONAL flag (the one that Barça's captains always wear). Because up until now, there's no law in the Spanish state's soccer league that forbids you to wear a Catalan flag even if that's a question of time. Spanish politics are returning slowly to the Franco years dangerously.
Puyol is there in South Africa wearing a spanish shirt because he has no other choice. If he had the choice -as he has stated in several interviews- he would be there in South Africa with the Catalan shirt. And if he celebrates a goal is because he's a "professional". And as such, he wants that cup as any other soccer professional. Just that.
Larslarson, darling, yeah, whatever you say.
And one more time, GO Holland, save us from all that wave of catalanophobia that will surface -once again- if those fascists win.
Medit
I don't understand why you say 'whatever'...your first comment in this thread stated 'club competitions that's where the real soccer is at'...and you said this before other times when we've talked about soccer in relation to the world cup.
you could almost put your comments on repeat from the last world cup..and/or within this thread...basically against Spain/pro Catalonia and you think world cup soccer is a poor display of the sport...although i think many would argue that it's a pretty pure display since every nation can't buy the best player at every position as club teams can and end up having to develop a team and chemistry over years.
I understand (obviously not fully) that you believe Catalonia deserves its own national team. But at the moment they don't have nation status and 'their' players play for 'Spain' and don't have another choice. Do you really think they would even qualify though? I doubt it. Where are the Welsh? the Scottish? all at home. Of course as an American i don't fully understand the Catalan struggle..but i don't think I'll learn more from your slanted view than i would from a spanish newspaper.
ok, lars, I agree with your last sentence... you actually would (or would not) learn more from my slanted view than you would from a SLANTED spanish newspaper's view.
And in the end, all you would get would be merely your own SLANTED view about things that happen in places that you, unfortunately and probably, don't know too much about.
On the argument about if Catalonia is a nation or not -are you familiar with the term "stateless nations"?- I won't discuss it with you and not here in Archinect, but, of course, you're completely wrong. Catalonia is a nation, not 'less nation' than what the US, the UK, Scotland or Flanders are - wether these nations have a political state to support them or not. Of course, first, we should agree that 'nation' is not a political term but a cultural one, if you don't agree with this axiom then the rest of the (endless) discussion would be quite futile.
Anyway, enjoy the WC final next sunday... some of us have better things to do this weekend in Barcelona. While others in this city will celebrate it if Spain wins, we will march for our own rights as Catalans. In fact, this will be a perfect example on what 'nations' really are: one specific, physical place (Barcelona, Catalonia) and two different attitudes (one celebrating Spain's victory, if that's the case) and the other demonstrating against the Nth agression of the Spanish state against Catalonia. 2 different attitudes/positions = 2 nations. One of these nations is Spain... guess which one is the other.
And Go Holland! :)
oh, and about that thing of "club competitions that's where the real soccer is at"... of course you should take that with a grain of salt.
Clubs have all year round -maybe two or 3 years- to develop a style of playing, an idiosyncrasy as a team if you will... national teams -or 'state teams', as is the case of Spain- group together for a month, and, basically, do what they can. And if Spain is doin' something worthy this time is because there were 7 (7!!) Barça players against Germany, most of them Catalans.
And that, basically, answers your question on what would Catalonia (its coach is now Johan Cruyff, by the way) would do in an international competition. Puyol, Xavi, Piqué, Busquets, Valdés, Bojan... more than enough to win, at least, an Eurocup.
Even in basketball, Pau Gasol and Barça (the current european champions) would do, I think, pretty well.
Shit, we even won an american hockey cup last week! Isn't that ironic? A fucking American cup, just because Spain doesn't let us play with our own national team in european and international competitions. Spanish fascists, that's what they are.
medit.
fair enough.. i admit i don't fully understand, but this is really a thread about the world cup and the teams in it. i realize i can't fully understand or empathize with what you're going through.
catalonia doesn't have enough depth i wouldn't think to make a world cup... the key players on Spain's team are Spanish not Catalonians. You'd have a decent midfield and defense..but the guy scoring all the goals? Basically you'd have two teams that would be good but not great. Villa, Torres, Iniesta, all the goalkeepers, Xabi, Pedro, etc. By my count 4 of the 8 players that play for Barcelona on the team are Catalans...correct? Puyol, Xavi, Pique and Busquets. Villa, Iniesta, and Pedro aren't..
that's really not american hockey. it's floor hockey on roller skates..which we don't really play over here...so i don't know if that's ironic or not.
Ok, Medit, the day that Catalonia is in the World Cup I might like them so much that I will root for them....
but at least get your football facts straight:
"national teams -or 'state teams', as is the case of Spain- group together for a month, and, basically, do what they can."
National teams are grouped together for a four year stretch of preliminary games and competition games, both for the European championship (and other corresponding ones in other parts of the world), then the two year preliminaries to qualify for the World Cup, then if they make it, the WC itself, so, unless a new coach comes in and radically revamps the team, most of the players will have played together for more than just a month.
And I'm not saying I'm rooting for Spain on Sunday...I really have no rooting interest in this one, just watching as a fan of football.
@Medit: that's why I like Oleguer so much: at least he takes a strong stand for his principles...
Other than that: try to think the spanish national team without all the players from Catalunya. They simply wouldn't have the quality they have right now. And in comparison to other parts of Spain, Catalunya would probably have one of the best teams. Just look at the players they have: some of the best defenders from the Primera division, some of the mest midfieldplayers and some of the best attackers. A real striker lacks, and I'm not that sure that the goalie is up to par. But it would've been a team to reach the quarter-final in this worldcup...
Even if it's only a test match: the Catalunyan team beat Argentina 4-2 last december...
And Larslarson: throughout the season, the national teams meet for a maximum of a couple of days. That's not enough to get automatisms in a team, so the tournaments are the only time to really work on that. That's probably also one of the key points for the spanish team: 6 players from Barcelona, who know eachother good enough to know what the others are thinking in the field...
But, to make things short: I think I'll be drunk for a week if we win, and severely depressed and in dire need of anti-depressants if we lose. And: I hope Van Persie finally gets to show his skills... hup holland hup!
ok.
i'd like to disagree with my original statement that most of the key players on the spanish team are spanish... i think they'd both have quality..but i do also think that both teams would be lacking in depth and quality if they seperated.
usernametaken... i realize that the national teams only meet for a few days and rosters are highly variable dependent on the importance of the matches and the club schedules. during any one cycle a national team can have any number of rosters... bob bradley has been commended by some for capping the most players in any one cycle. so i can understand why national teams don't have the best chemistry and also understand why Spain plays well together since they're basically Barcelona.
i guess what i like about world cup soccer is that it's a nation's best against another. each team has to develop players over a four year cycle and also have an eye to the future...what's so crushing in losing in the world cup is that most players 28 and up won't be around for the next...so you constantly have to keep cycling players. but that's more interesting than simply having a larger budget that allows you to buy the best player at every position...at least to me. i do still like club soccer/football and enjoy champions league and all that..but i do think there's something very special about national team competitions.
'depth and overall quality'... i wish there was an edit button
fair enough.. i admit i don't fully understand, but this is really a thread about the world cup and the teams in it. i realize i can't fully understand or empathize with what you're going through.
hey, I know... my intervention was merely to state some facts that would help to better understand some things about the spanish team (and some about Barça)... it's not that I'm trying to add some archinecters to my -our, Catalans- personal cause...
I'm one of those May 24, 2004 Archinecters too, and I know how difficult is to convince some people here... ;)
I know I've introduced some politics, but they aren't offtopic at all... after all, as you say in your last message "there's something very special about national team competitions." - Of course there is: nationalism. Devotion and empathy to one's nation's representatives in a sports' competition, i.e., patriotism.
I find this "specialness" to be very normal -as in being a standard behaviour, not specially justified from a rational point of view, just that is a very common attitude anywhere in the globe-.
And according to the values of that mix of specialness, patriotism and collective emotional catharsis you should also find quite "normal" or at least acceptable -and I guess you do- that I, and others, want a Catalan national team for the WC in Brasil 2014. Cause I see the spanish team, with their spanish flag and i feel anything but affection, love, representation, devotion, empathy... you name it.
There's this way of analyze sport -technically-, and then there's this other phenomenon of one's nation act of representation. Both ways, rational and emotional, are part of the same game. I don't think one of them is more important than the other.
I can see that Spain plays well -because they are merely replicating what Barça does-, and even there are some Catalans there.
And, still, all I desire is to see them lose next sunday. This would seem a contradiction. But it's not, because of the emotional side of the game.
I'm human, you know. Not a robot. If I were a tactics' dissection machine I would probably support Spain. But as I'm flesh and bones, I say f*ck them.
Oh, and I know we haven't a remarkable Catalan striker. But you know that Xavi is the brain, soul, and orchestral director of Barça -and now of Spain-. And most people who presume to know about soccer knows that Messi, for example, without Xavi -and you can see that when he plays with Argentina- is not that good. Cause midfields are usually the ones who win championships. Strikers can win a match by themselves in 1 particular game with an isolated stroke of genius, but leagues and tournaments can't be won without a decent team's organizer. And Xavi has been the best in Europe these past two years.
that's really not american hockey. it's floor hockey on roller skates..which we don't really play over here...so i don't know if that's ironic or not.
er, sorry, I meant an American cup ... not American hockey.
Roller hockey isn't too popular here either -even if it seems that we play that thing quite well, on global terms- but it was an example of the legal and political strategies that some catalan sports' federations are trying to use to avoid the vetoes of the Spanish central government -you can read the "Fresno case" link that I added in my previous message... that one was the most scandalous, pure Italian mafia, I've ever seen-.
The Rink Hockey American Championship was originally an all-american national teams competition (if I'm not mistaken), but since the Catalan players were quite good with it and couldn't play in Europe -because of the spanish veto-, they were accepted as another team there (it seems that Germany played too, I'm not sure why...)
And that's what was ironic, if you're a Catalan and want to play with your Catalan team -in a sport where you have many chances to win it all as is the case or roller hockey- you have to "escape" (exile?) to South America, far away from the Spanish government's spaces of influence.
Ah, and Catalonia won...
so we, Catalans are the "American" champions ... see the irony? ... ;)
damn... I meant:
"And, still, all I desire is to see them LOOSE next sunday."
and the link to the Rink Hockey American Championship
I want an edit button too...
damn... I meant:
"And, still, all I desire is to see them LOOSE next sunday."
and the link to the Rink Hockey American Championship
I want an edit button too...
Emilio,
hey, you can support whatever team you want, of course... you know I wasn't telling anyone who to support, just clarifying that the equation Spain = Barça has lots of angles to be considered... and some are, I think, quite important.
Imagine there was a nazi team that played very well... would you support them? They play very well, and you like them, but there's something about that flag they wear that makes you feel a little bit "uncomfortable".
I'm not comparing it with Spain's team -I know using the word nazi is a bit extreme-, but you get my point.
And that argument that if Catalonia played separately from Spain would have less chances to win a WC is obvious.
But... who cares? Most of you knew that the USA had little chances to win this WC. Was that an argument to not support your team? or to ask to play together with Mexico just because then you would have a better team and more chances to win?
usernametaken,
yes! Oleguer is one of my heroes!
and hup holland hup!!! you know there will be thousands of Catalans supporting Holland this next Sunday!
(and you know how Barça -specially during the Van Gaal years- was almost like a dutch selection: Kluivert, Cocu, the De Boer twins, Zenden, etc... there's a strong link there, and Cruyff was the first one... ;)
Wow, Medit, you just couldn't resist playing the Nazi card, could you? Then you weakly qualify it, like everyone does when they pull that trick, by adding the "not saying it's the same" qualifier, but you very well know you've used the word and there it is and there's no qualifying it.
I'm not touching that one with a ten foot pole, but I will say that if the Catalan players really thought that the country whose flag they play under were even approaching the Nazi regime then they probably would not be there (and would also not be gassed and placed in ovens if they refused to participate).
Agree that Xavi is a great, great player and the backbone of the Spain side, but you really diss Messi in a way that Xavi himself even does not:
"... Barcelona midfielder Xavi Hernández has refused to compare Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo because, he says, the Portuguese winger would come off so badly.
Xavi revealed that, as well as Ronaldo, he is a big admirer of Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard but insisted that Messi is simply untouchable. "Messi is the best player in the world by a distance, he's the No1," Xavi said. "There is nobody at all like him. I don't want to compare him to anyone because it'll just damage the other player if I do. For me Messi is easily the best.
All due respect to Ronaldo and all the other great players on the world stage but Messi is proving that he is better than everyone else. The world can see that he's the boss. I've never seen anything like it. In a game, in the training sessions, never. I wouldn't swap him for any player."
I've seen Messi do incredible things on the field that have nothing to do with Xavi. The fact that he came up small in the WC doesn't take away from his talent that much...it was a mediocre Argentina, that's all.
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