We are looking for an architect... willing to work for cheap - well below the going rate, as right now we just can't afford to spend much on this design.
yes, if you are an under or unemployed architect, you too can work for (nearly) free...
so this couple that lives in the u-district here in seattle is looking for a chump to design and do construction docs for their pergola.
total budget for meetings, design and drawings is a whopping (wait for it...) $250.
contract: .5 hours
meetings: these people sound really douche-y, probably minumum 2 hours, likely more.
as-builts: the deck is probably going to take at least an hour to get really basic as builts
design: let's say you can snag a 'pergola' you've worked on previously and tweak it to their needs and they are ok with it in one shot (i'm guessing not...), still looking at probably 3-4 hours
drawings: 2-3, assuming no changes
so let's say that you're the 'lucky' unemployed architect that takes this 'job'. you work about 10 hours, so $25 an hour. is getting paid 25% or less of the 'going rate' not ridiculous?
maybe if they can't afford to pay for design, they shouldn't get it?
Not counting the 0.5 hours to 45 mins it will take to take measurements (even a small space requires some time for as-built measurements)
does this have to be produced for city stamp? if so, you better have insurance and a stamp, which needs to factor into the cost of your services as well. do you have to prep drawings for the city, and fill out the forms, and deal with any changes?
man this is such a joke. you'd have to be a complete idiot to take this project. it would be better to find a temp job answering phones - you'll make that amount in just a few days, with none of the thought effort and emotional effort of dealing with these people.
Questions about whether design is necessary or affordable are quite beside the point: design is inevitable. The alternative to good design is bad design, not no design at all.
- Douglas Martin
If they won't pay a decent amount for good design, they'll pay less for crap. Their choice.
By the way, Holz, you christened this with one of my favorite (and appropriate) thread titles ever... except that I mistook des tages for French, illiterate that I am. Douchenozzle du jour also packs a punch.
I almost did one of these things, too. Except the guy was willing to pay 400.
The story was this-- guy just moved here, guy bought an old fixer upper house, guy fixes up house... we're talking semi riverfront Victorian -ish job.
Well, he had basically already built the deck. He used a giant book of "how to build a deck." He had everything right... it was beautiful. Unfortunately, he didn't think he needed to have a permit.
To get a permit (even post facto), he needed drawings.
So, I told him I could easily do the two elevations and the top view... but I'd have to call the city.
The city told me that they require an engineer's or architect's stamps on deck construction and that the drawings would have to come from a professional.
I reviewed the city code and found out that [b]stamped drawings were only 100% necessary if the project included a deck, sidewalk or driveway[b]. For some reason, you could supply the drawings for an entire house without a license but heaven forbid you tried to put a paver down.
offer to take the contract, with the caveat that they have to pay an additional $50 every time they talk about you or the fact that an architect designed their pergola. Then show up with a watercolor of "their pergola" that they can hang up in their living room (rendered, flattened, printed on arches, framed). Sell it to them at cost.
on a less humorous note, this kind of blind classicism really bothers me. If you have the money to bid it out and hire a contractor to build it, then you have the money to hire an architect at a proper wage to design it. How fucking condescending are you to plan for a construction project, in which you will find money to pay for wood, glass, probably concrete (footings), flashing, sealant, nails, LABOR, CONTRACTOR O&P, all those little things... and NOT have the money for an architect?! We are literally the cheapest thing on a construction project with the highest rate of return. I'm sure these people wouldn't dream of bidding it out but telling the contractors that they can't afford to pay more than $250 for O&P. Why is it always "we HAVE the money for this construction project, but all of a sudden we don't have any for you useless architect"?! Bullshit hubris. These kinds of clients are the absolute fucking worst. Ten to one they find some loophole, or argue with your hours, and find a way to refuse to pay the measly $250, even.
I put in a proposal on a similar job I found on craigslist, but for a whole house, from scratch, on a rural site with no utilities and lots of grade change. They wanted FREE, I proposed $50 an hour with an estimate, told them what it included and told them why it was important, thinking I had educated them and would get a response. I talked about how I would facilitate things like utilities and permitting. I wrote a wonderful proposal, got no response and that was the end of my freelance career.
Unsophisticated clients are the worst. I had a very wealthy client who knew she had to hire a civil engineer or a landscape architect to get the permit because I told her, and the city told her as well. She ignored me, but kept pushing for me to secure her permit. Eventually, the principal of the firm I worked at decided I would do her civil and landscape drawings to make her happy and get the permit! I already had a very full schedule, but I got to work a bunch of unpaid overtime to produce 12 more sheets that I was hardly qualified to do! The city engineer helped me on the civil design and he accepted my drawings only because I developed that relationship with him, which I had to work to do. The client was a multi-millionaire and I got to work nights and weekends to make sure they stayed a multi-millionaire! The rich don't get rich by writing checks you know. I know the principal put me in that position because the client had a little carrot on a string in the form of a promise of us designing a large office complex later on... Funny, that second job never materialized.
oh my goodness strawbeary that story is SO familiar to me! I can't tell you how many times I've been in precisely that situation. The keys points are: a) the boss himself doesn't pull this overtime with you, b) you never get paid for this overtime, c) the second project doesn't ever materialize, and worst of all, d) the client ends up having all kinds of issues with the work you did (FOR FREE!) and keeps demanding changes, extra work, etcetera, all of which you also have to do while your boss sits at home, because he says "can you just do such-and-such? that's all she wants..." and then the next day, "can you just make such-and-such change for tomorrow? thanks! by the way, I've been thinking, on the second project I'd like to have you put together the concept design!" etc etc etc.
UGH. Sometimes I am so glad I am not working in that milieu anymore.
that's the good thing about design/build.... i have to know the budget before hand and then we proceed. if they can't afford the bells and whistles then they don't get it. i stopped doing free/pro bono work about a year ago also, it never paid off.
you have to choose your projects and stand your ground. i know folks are tight for money, but there is a way to make the nickle/dime projects and put a few bucks in your pocket.
douchenozzle des tages
yes, if you are an under or unemployed architect, you too can work for (nearly) free...
via craigslist
so this couple that lives in the u-district here in seattle is looking for a chump to design and do construction docs for their pergola.
total budget for meetings, design and drawings is a whopping (wait for it...) $250.
contract: .5 hours
meetings: these people sound really douche-y, probably minumum 2 hours, likely more.
as-builts: the deck is probably going to take at least an hour to get really basic as builts
design: let's say you can snag a 'pergola' you've worked on previously and tweak it to their needs and they are ok with it in one shot (i'm guessing not...), still looking at probably 3-4 hours
drawings: 2-3, assuming no changes
so let's say that you're the 'lucky' unemployed architect that takes this 'job'. you work about 10 hours, so $25 an hour. is getting paid 25% or less of the 'going rate' not ridiculous?
maybe if they can't afford to pay for design, they shouldn't get it?
Hope they don't. Craigslist is now full of these, and not just in Arch/Engineering.
Not counting the 0.5 hours to 45 mins it will take to take measurements (even a small space requires some time for as-built measurements)
does this have to be produced for city stamp? if so, you better have insurance and a stamp, which needs to factor into the cost of your services as well. do you have to prep drawings for the city, and fill out the forms, and deal with any changes?
man this is such a joke. you'd have to be a complete idiot to take this project. it would be better to find a temp job answering phones - you'll make that amount in just a few days, with none of the thought effort and emotional effort of dealing with these people.
- Douglas Martin
If they won't pay a decent amount for good design, they'll pay less for crap. Their choice.
omg - I just read this and realized it isn't a pergola they want - it's an ENCLOSED SUN-ROOM. Aka, WEATHER-PROOF. and ready for bid!
HA!!!! this is fucking ridiculous. someone needs to produce water tight details for this price? and material specs, etc? ridiculous.
yeah, i wasn't sure if they were asking for a sun room, or just a pergola w/ glass set between spans to keep rain off the deck.
if the pergola is larger than 120sf, it will need to be permitted.
definitely pretty ridiculous. i figured you guys might get as good a laugh as i did.
In the end, the laugh will be on them. They'll get just what they pay for.
By the way, Holz, you christened this with one of my favorite (and appropriate) thread titles ever... except that I mistook des tages for French, illiterate that I am. Douchenozzle du jour also packs a punch.
I almost did one of these things, too. Except the guy was willing to pay 400.
The story was this-- guy just moved here, guy bought an old fixer upper house, guy fixes up house... we're talking semi riverfront Victorian -ish job.
Well, he had basically already built the deck. He used a giant book of "how to build a deck." He had everything right... it was beautiful. Unfortunately, he didn't think he needed to have a permit.
To get a permit (even post facto), he needed drawings.
So, I told him I could easily do the two elevations and the top view... but I'd have to call the city.
The city told me that they require an engineer's or architect's stamps on deck construction and that the drawings would have to come from a professional.
I reviewed the city code and found out that [b]stamped drawings were only 100% necessary if the project included a deck, sidewalk or driveway[b]. For some reason, you could supply the drawings for an entire house without a license but heaven forbid you tried to put a paver down.
sounds better
but the double zz seems germanic, hence the title.
in seattle, as long as the deck is under 18" i don't think you need a permit (but it's been years since i worked on a deck)
offer to take the contract, with the caveat that they have to pay an additional $50 every time they talk about you or the fact that an architect designed their pergola. Then show up with a watercolor of "their pergola" that they can hang up in their living room (rendered, flattened, printed on arches, framed). Sell it to them at cost.
ha ha ha ha!
If an actual client referral comes out of one of the $50 comments, then they get a refund.
on a less humorous note, this kind of blind classicism really bothers me. If you have the money to bid it out and hire a contractor to build it, then you have the money to hire an architect at a proper wage to design it. How fucking condescending are you to plan for a construction project, in which you will find money to pay for wood, glass, probably concrete (footings), flashing, sealant, nails, LABOR, CONTRACTOR O&P, all those little things... and NOT have the money for an architect?! We are literally the cheapest thing on a construction project with the highest rate of return. I'm sure these people wouldn't dream of bidding it out but telling the contractors that they can't afford to pay more than $250 for O&P. Why is it always "we HAVE the money for this construction project, but all of a sudden we don't have any for you useless architect"?! Bullshit hubris. These kinds of clients are the absolute fucking worst. Ten to one they find some loophole, or argue with your hours, and find a way to refuse to pay the measly $250, even.
I meant classicm, not classicism... haha, architect mistake!
manta you're completely right of course.
Has anyone sent them this thread as a reply to the ad?
I did. There still waiting for me to show up.
I put in a proposal on a similar job I found on craigslist, but for a whole house, from scratch, on a rural site with no utilities and lots of grade change. They wanted FREE, I proposed $50 an hour with an estimate, told them what it included and told them why it was important, thinking I had educated them and would get a response. I talked about how I would facilitate things like utilities and permitting. I wrote a wonderful proposal, got no response and that was the end of my freelance career.
Unsophisticated clients are the worst. I had a very wealthy client who knew she had to hire a civil engineer or a landscape architect to get the permit because I told her, and the city told her as well. She ignored me, but kept pushing for me to secure her permit. Eventually, the principal of the firm I worked at decided I would do her civil and landscape drawings to make her happy and get the permit! I already had a very full schedule, but I got to work a bunch of unpaid overtime to produce 12 more sheets that I was hardly qualified to do! The city engineer helped me on the civil design and he accepted my drawings only because I developed that relationship with him, which I had to work to do. The client was a multi-millionaire and I got to work nights and weekends to make sure they stayed a multi-millionaire! The rich don't get rich by writing checks you know. I know the principal put me in that position because the client had a little carrot on a string in the form of a promise of us designing a large office complex later on... Funny, that second job never materialized.
coreection: civil AND landscape. I did both.
oh my goodness strawbeary that story is SO familiar to me! I can't tell you how many times I've been in precisely that situation. The keys points are: a) the boss himself doesn't pull this overtime with you, b) you never get paid for this overtime, c) the second project doesn't ever materialize, and worst of all, d) the client ends up having all kinds of issues with the work you did (FOR FREE!) and keeps demanding changes, extra work, etcetera, all of which you also have to do while your boss sits at home, because he says "can you just do such-and-such? that's all she wants..." and then the next day, "can you just make such-and-such change for tomorrow? thanks! by the way, I've been thinking, on the second project I'd like to have you put together the concept design!" etc etc etc.
UGH. Sometimes I am so glad I am not working in that milieu anymore.
that's the good thing about design/build.... i have to know the budget before hand and then we proceed. if they can't afford the bells and whistles then they don't get it. i stopped doing free/pro bono work about a year ago also, it never paid off.
you have to choose your projects and stand your ground. i know folks are tight for money, but there is a way to make the nickle/dime projects and put a few bucks in your pocket.
aw, they took the ad down and never bothered responding to my email!
Wonder how much billable time this post discussing the shitty rate consumed...
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