I have been looking at the Salay poll here and have determined (I knew this already) that I am grossly underpaid. My firm has had to tighten their belt over the last few years and I'm coming up on 3 years since I (or anyone here, I think) have gotten a raise. The raise I did get 3 years ago was minimal.
Long story short, I started here at about 4 years exp and now have 7+, have been through the pressure cooker of a ridiculously fast track project, put in so many uncountable unpaid hours of overtime, 70 hour weeks.. was too busy to think about being underpaid. Just passed my orals and am thinking it is time.
Any advise on how to ask, how much to ask? I know that they like me here and I have saved this project's butt too many times to count. I'm just not that forward when it comes to asking for money. Not in my nature but I sense that if I don't do it, the raise will never happen.
If you can show them how you appreciate the value they are adding to your professional career based on the experiences you are having: saving projects, working long hours to get the details right, etc...then they will be unable to argue against the value YOU add to the firm. With that you seem to have grounds to ask for more money because, as your value to the firm increases, in my opinion, your compensation should as well.
Office culture is difficult (obviously). A really talented guy in my office just quit right after getting a promotion because he has been asking for more help for months due to the crazy hours he is being asked to pull. They didn't give it to him, so he quit- he added incredibly value to our firm and the kind of customer care we try to offer clients. That being said, I have no idea what kind of office environment you are in. Good luck!
Here is a technique I used. Not sure if it will work for you, especially in this economic climate. But here is goes.
I took 1 year's worth of timesheets and added up the total # of hours and figured out what my resulting hourly rate was. I worked an AVERAGE of 65 hours/week. Based on my salary at the time, I calculated my "true" hourly rate based on the # of hours I had worked that year. It was a mind boggling number, and very powerful. You can easily quantify how much work you didn't get paid for.
I knew what I wanted to be paid (based on market value and my experience level), and now I knew what I should have been paid, had I been paid my standard hourly rate for all hours worked. I should have been paid about $110K/year, when my salary was at $70K.
With those numbers in hand, and my track record of well-executed projects and many praises from our clients, I asked for a review and expressed that I loved the work, but couldn't continue to dedicate so much of my time to unpaid work while neglecting my responsibilties at home.
So I asked for 90K, which was middle of the ground, and a respectable but not unrealistic # for my level of experience if I was to job-hunt. Guess what, I got it. a 20K raise! It was surreal, and it felt great.
BUT - over the past year or two, salaries have seen a BIG adjustment. So I don't know what your bargaining power is. But this approach makes you sound reasonable, not demanding. And I think that is the key. If an employer really values your work and your contributions, they will try to pay you what they can to keep you somewhat happy. Typically anyway. There are always employers who think all their staff is expendable, and could care less...
Oh, this was a couple of years ago, just before the economy crashed. Now I make 72K due to a 20% paycut from my 90K. I did enjoy seeing a bigger paycheck come home for one whole month. Then pooof!
But hey, if I hadn't asked for a raise, I would be making 80% of 70K! So, I'm glad I did what I did...
Im thinking you should be happy to have a job in this economy. Wait till your office has a decent amount of backlog then tell them you think you might be underpaid based on your research... and hopefully they wont tell you to test the market and see what others will pay you for your services.
I recommend you send out resumes, and leave that office. Other companies will value your expertise more since they can evaluate you more objectively. If you insist on staying there do this anyway and tell them when you have several offers on the table, but if they can match any of them you'll stay, who knows might work. If it doesn't then leave for the better paying job. but dont burn any bridges.
I think telling them you have offers could be threatening to them, that will most likely backfire.
Even if they do match your offers, your relationship with them will never be the same... that’s the last thing you want, especially if you like it there. Most HR pros say that counter offers should not be excepted.
"I recommend you send out resumes, and leave that office. Other companies will value your expertise more since they can evaluate you more objectively."
What ... are you seriously proposing this particualr attitude in this particular economy ... do you think this is 2007?
Why are we so ridiculously underpaid in this profession? I was just reading the IPD article in arcCA - this structural firm Forell Elsesser started a thing where they send around their interns to spend a month with the Architect, engineers, contractor, and owner - they were paid by each respectively and so had to "find a wage compromise" because architects usually pay their interns less than structural engineers do. I'm sure that translates all the way (most of the way) up the ladder.
Well thanks everyone for the ideas. I know that for former employees here the "shopping around" and bringing back offers method did backfire so I know that is a bad tactic, at least here. Maybe I should shop around and just hope to find something. I don't feel like it should be this difficult to be appreciated and fairly compensated. Seems endemic to the profession but maybe some firms are slightly less bad..
anon8 - Says you have 7+ years experience. Are you registered yet? LEED AP? Just putting in extreme OT isn't the only way to get noticed around the office. Some good old fashioned professional development can go a long way for making management notice you for that "next step."
As for salaries in general, the way to move up is sadly firm hopping, which isn't much of an option these days. I've been able to arge a 3% raise into a 5-7% raise, but big moves are generally left for major promotions or jumping to the competition.
I have 13 years experience and am licensed and earning $60,000 this year. Last year $48,000. Next year we might have no work. The owner earned $0 for the last 2 years. Ask for a raise but do it nicely.
Personally I probably would not broach the topic of a raise to your boss. Am I the only one that thinks that this is crazy? I don't know your position at your firm, but you are probably expendable with no leverage in the "negotiation." If you leave and they need a replacement, supply & demand is in their favor... big time. Also consider that if the firm is not doing too well, the timing of asking for the raise says a lot about the individual that has a job yet wants more when there's little.
yeah i would be very careful in how you ask for the raise. Make sure its not you demanding anything, otherwise you could put yourself in a difficult position later on
It tends to stick in peoples heads the wrong way if you are seen as being greedy in a bad economy.
that being said, i dont think you are necessarily being greedy, but perhaps a bit premature. Things may seem to be a touch better, but it's not quite to the point where people can really be compensated for putting in some extra hours yet
I would approach it more as you asking what the firms plans are for the near future on compensating those who have stuck around and sacrificed to help the firm survive
Thats a good point by ctrlZ
How is your firm doing right now? Just saving a project from going under doesnt really mean you are making the firm money. If the firm was monetarily reaping the benefits and not including you, that would be one thing. If they are barely afloat with you and others keeping projects going with hard work, then you really are asking for money that isnt there.
I wouldnt ask for a raise. maybe you tell them that things are getting a liitle tight at home and you are going to have to moonlight... and you are wondering if that goes againts any company policy.
Firm is doing ok it seems, at least in terms of currently being busy. They just brought back several former employees and I think we're as big as I've ever seen us in the past several years.
However I think we don't negotiate enough fee on a lot of our projects and end up in the hole. That's probably normal too for a lot of firms but doesn't seem very fair - that the only way they can break even is by exploitation of their employees.
Aquapura - I did JUST get my license and have the LEED AP.
So many conflicting opinions here on asking or not asking, think I'm more confused than before!! I really don't think telling them I'm going to moonlight is a good idea though! Definitely not doing that - think it is against company policy.
Maybe I just wait until the regularly scheduled review and hope for the best.
Personally I would give it a go because you really have nothing to lose if you do it in a professional manner. They can always say no and you can always accept that in a professional way and not pu pressure on them. If you don't ever ask for what you want... or you don't ever tell people what you want then they will never know.
I personally am about to ask for a raise as well, I took a job and my boss brought me in at a lower pay and said that in three months I would get a raise. Well it has been 4 months and I haven't asked for a raise yet but am planning on it soon!
I think that employers respect people who are confident and know what they want. This means they can be a leader and not just a door mat. I think you should go in there and just have a conversation with your boss about a raise or future raise. The key is to accept whatever answer is given and let him know that you respect his decision. In this economy maybe the firm just doesn't have enough money but maybe they do... Just be a team player and let him know that you want what is mutually beneficial for you and the firm.
Firm being busy doesnt really mean profitable by any means though. But if you are hiring new employees, then it seems that there is some money out there
As long as you are respectful about it, its not a terrible thing to ask
Maybe suggest an early review based on you now being licensed and LEED AP? You can approach it like you are looking for more or different responsibilities now that you have more experience. And more money is a natural extension of a talk like that
I think having a reason to meet with your boss beyond just asking for more money is key though. Not that just asking for a deserved raise is wrong or anything. But, unfairly or not, in today's economy, you dont want to give off a greedy attitude, otherwise you will get the standard "we are all just lucky to have a job these days" response, which will end the conversation pretty quickly
Just an observation ... not intented to sway you one way or another. This is an odd economy right now and the old "appearances can be deceiving" warning applies.
While it may appear that a firm is busy - even hiring - that doesn't necessarily mean the firm is doing anything more than breaking even. Fees are terribly low right now -- the worst I've seen in my fairly long career. Firms are competing for what little work there is just to keep the doors open and as many of their staff employed as possible. Among my circle of friends, few are making much, if any, profit.
In such circumstances, it's incredibly uncomfortable for the firm when employees approach with their hand out. I'm not saying don't approach your firm. I'd just be terribly sensitive to the consideration outlined above.
"While it may appear that a firm is busy - even hiring - that doesn't necessarily mean the firm is doing anything more than breaking even. "
that is a good point
My old firm, we were incredibly busy, but the firm still went under anyway.
Chances are your bosses have taken pay cuts as well, as has everyone else in the firm. Unless you are that valuable or that underpaid, chances are you will not get your raise simply because you are in the situation everyone else is also in
Most firms it seems want to give everyone their original salaries back at least, and then hopefully make up for raises that have been missed. It obviously cant happen at once and, i think, typically will be given back in increments. Maybe 1-2% every quarter if things are going well.
So for you to come in and expect a bigger chunk than others are getting, can possibly be seen in a negative light
I agree with marmkind - in my opinion- completely depends on how well you firm is really doing so i would try and figure that out first.
I know at my firm there are only a fraction of people who I've heard complain about anything - benefits, work environment, and most of all - the salary freeze that has been in effect for 1.5 yrs.
The smart people that keep their mouths shut dont do it out of fear of being layed off- its because they know the truth about the situation - the owners/principals are making tiny fraction of the salaries they made before the crash.
And the reason they have been barely scraping by? to keep as many of us employed as possible.
You may have a different situation, and if your firm is doing well then absolutely go for it . But if your firm has been struggling lately- before you ask something like that, I would put yourself in that principals' shoes who is selling his house to make it by so that you can keep your job and steady income. Would you like being approached by that person for more money?
Apr 29, 10 12:17 am ·
·
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.
Help! Advice on asking for a raise..
I have been looking at the Salay poll here and have determined (I knew this already) that I am grossly underpaid. My firm has had to tighten their belt over the last few years and I'm coming up on 3 years since I (or anyone here, I think) have gotten a raise. The raise I did get 3 years ago was minimal.
Long story short, I started here at about 4 years exp and now have 7+, have been through the pressure cooker of a ridiculously fast track project, put in so many uncountable unpaid hours of overtime, 70 hour weeks.. was too busy to think about being underpaid. Just passed my orals and am thinking it is time.
Any advise on how to ask, how much to ask? I know that they like me here and I have saved this project's butt too many times to count. I'm just not that forward when it comes to asking for money. Not in my nature but I sense that if I don't do it, the raise will never happen.
help!
If you can show them how you appreciate the value they are adding to your professional career based on the experiences you are having: saving projects, working long hours to get the details right, etc...then they will be unable to argue against the value YOU add to the firm. With that you seem to have grounds to ask for more money because, as your value to the firm increases, in my opinion, your compensation should as well.
Office culture is difficult (obviously). A really talented guy in my office just quit right after getting a promotion because he has been asking for more help for months due to the crazy hours he is being asked to pull. They didn't give it to him, so he quit- he added incredibly value to our firm and the kind of customer care we try to offer clients. That being said, I have no idea what kind of office environment you are in. Good luck!
Here is a technique I used. Not sure if it will work for you, especially in this economic climate. But here is goes.
I took 1 year's worth of timesheets and added up the total # of hours and figured out what my resulting hourly rate was. I worked an AVERAGE of 65 hours/week. Based on my salary at the time, I calculated my "true" hourly rate based on the # of hours I had worked that year. It was a mind boggling number, and very powerful. You can easily quantify how much work you didn't get paid for.
I knew what I wanted to be paid (based on market value and my experience level), and now I knew what I should have been paid, had I been paid my standard hourly rate for all hours worked. I should have been paid about $110K/year, when my salary was at $70K.
With those numbers in hand, and my track record of well-executed projects and many praises from our clients, I asked for a review and expressed that I loved the work, but couldn't continue to dedicate so much of my time to unpaid work while neglecting my responsibilties at home.
So I asked for 90K, which was middle of the ground, and a respectable but not unrealistic # for my level of experience if I was to job-hunt. Guess what, I got it. a 20K raise! It was surreal, and it felt great.
BUT - over the past year or two, salaries have seen a BIG adjustment. So I don't know what your bargaining power is. But this approach makes you sound reasonable, not demanding. And I think that is the key. If an employer really values your work and your contributions, they will try to pay you what they can to keep you somewhat happy. Typically anyway. There are always employers who think all their staff is expendable, and could care less...
Good luck!
yarchitect - thats because you are real good at what you do. Heaven help the average person that asks for a raise in this economy -
Oh, this was a couple of years ago, just before the economy crashed. Now I make 72K due to a 20% paycut from my 90K. I did enjoy seeing a bigger paycheck come home for one whole month. Then pooof!
But hey, if I hadn't asked for a raise, I would be making 80% of 70K! So, I'm glad I did what I did...
Im thinking you should be happy to have a job in this economy. Wait till your office has a decent amount of backlog then tell them you think you might be underpaid based on your research... and hopefully they wont tell you to test the market and see what others will pay you for your services.
I recommend you send out resumes, and leave that office. Other companies will value your expertise more since they can evaluate you more objectively. If you insist on staying there do this anyway and tell them when you have several offers on the table, but if they can match any of them you'll stay, who knows might work. If it doesn't then leave for the better paying job. but dont burn any bridges.
I think telling them you have offers could be threatening to them, that will most likely backfire.
Even if they do match your offers, your relationship with them will never be the same... that’s the last thing you want, especially if you like it there. Most HR pros say that counter offers should not be excepted.
What ... are you seriously proposing this particualr attitude in this particular economy ... do you think this is 2007?
I think LL is trying to swoop in and get his/her job once they are let go
There was a guy here who asked for a raise two months ago. He's really good at filing unemployment paperwork now.
I recommend you send out resumes there are jobs popping up look around. I wouldn't recommend asking for a raise.
Why are we so ridiculously underpaid in this profession? I was just reading the IPD article in arcCA - this structural firm Forell Elsesser started a thing where they send around their interns to spend a month with the Architect, engineers, contractor, and owner - they were paid by each respectively and so had to "find a wage compromise" because architects usually pay their interns less than structural engineers do. I'm sure that translates all the way (most of the way) up the ladder.
Well thanks everyone for the ideas. I know that for former employees here the "shopping around" and bringing back offers method did backfire so I know that is a bad tactic, at least here. Maybe I should shop around and just hope to find something. I don't feel like it should be this difficult to be appreciated and fairly compensated. Seems endemic to the profession but maybe some firms are slightly less bad..
anon8 - Says you have 7+ years experience. Are you registered yet? LEED AP? Just putting in extreme OT isn't the only way to get noticed around the office. Some good old fashioned professional development can go a long way for making management notice you for that "next step."
As for salaries in general, the way to move up is sadly firm hopping, which isn't much of an option these days. I've been able to arge a 3% raise into a 5-7% raise, but big moves are generally left for major promotions or jumping to the competition.
I have 13 years experience and am licensed and earning $60,000 this year. Last year $48,000. Next year we might have no work. The owner earned $0 for the last 2 years. Ask for a raise but do it nicely.
Personally I probably would not broach the topic of a raise to your boss. Am I the only one that thinks that this is crazy? I don't know your position at your firm, but you are probably expendable with no leverage in the "negotiation." If you leave and they need a replacement, supply & demand is in their favor... big time. Also consider that if the firm is not doing too well, the timing of asking for the raise says a lot about the individual that has a job yet wants more when there's little.
Good luck in your negotiations. Tread carefully.
yeah i would be very careful in how you ask for the raise. Make sure its not you demanding anything, otherwise you could put yourself in a difficult position later on
It tends to stick in peoples heads the wrong way if you are seen as being greedy in a bad economy.
that being said, i dont think you are necessarily being greedy, but perhaps a bit premature. Things may seem to be a touch better, but it's not quite to the point where people can really be compensated for putting in some extra hours yet
I would approach it more as you asking what the firms plans are for the near future on compensating those who have stuck around and sacrificed to help the firm survive
Thats a good point by ctrlZ
How is your firm doing right now? Just saving a project from going under doesnt really mean you are making the firm money. If the firm was monetarily reaping the benefits and not including you, that would be one thing. If they are barely afloat with you and others keeping projects going with hard work, then you really are asking for money that isnt there.
I wouldnt ask for a raise. maybe you tell them that things are getting a liitle tight at home and you are going to have to moonlight... and you are wondering if that goes againts any company policy.
That might be a good start... see how they react
Firm is doing ok it seems, at least in terms of currently being busy. They just brought back several former employees and I think we're as big as I've ever seen us in the past several years.
However I think we don't negotiate enough fee on a lot of our projects and end up in the hole. That's probably normal too for a lot of firms but doesn't seem very fair - that the only way they can break even is by exploitation of their employees.
Aquapura - I did JUST get my license and have the LEED AP.
So many conflicting opinions here on asking or not asking, think I'm more confused than before!! I really don't think telling them I'm going to moonlight is a good idea though! Definitely not doing that - think it is against company policy.
Maybe I just wait until the regularly scheduled review and hope for the best.
Personally I would give it a go because you really have nothing to lose if you do it in a professional manner. They can always say no and you can always accept that in a professional way and not pu pressure on them. If you don't ever ask for what you want... or you don't ever tell people what you want then they will never know.
I personally am about to ask for a raise as well, I took a job and my boss brought me in at a lower pay and said that in three months I would get a raise. Well it has been 4 months and I haven't asked for a raise yet but am planning on it soon!
I think that employers respect people who are confident and know what they want. This means they can be a leader and not just a door mat. I think you should go in there and just have a conversation with your boss about a raise or future raise. The key is to accept whatever answer is given and let him know that you respect his decision. In this economy maybe the firm just doesn't have enough money but maybe they do... Just be a team player and let him know that you want what is mutually beneficial for you and the firm.
Firm being busy doesnt really mean profitable by any means though. But if you are hiring new employees, then it seems that there is some money out there
As long as you are respectful about it, its not a terrible thing to ask
Maybe suggest an early review based on you now being licensed and LEED AP? You can approach it like you are looking for more or different responsibilities now that you have more experience. And more money is a natural extension of a talk like that
I think having a reason to meet with your boss beyond just asking for more money is key though. Not that just asking for a deserved raise is wrong or anything. But, unfairly or not, in today's economy, you dont want to give off a greedy attitude, otherwise you will get the standard "we are all just lucky to have a job these days" response, which will end the conversation pretty quickly
Just an observation ... not intented to sway you one way or another. This is an odd economy right now and the old "appearances can be deceiving" warning applies.
While it may appear that a firm is busy - even hiring - that doesn't necessarily mean the firm is doing anything more than breaking even. Fees are terribly low right now -- the worst I've seen in my fairly long career. Firms are competing for what little work there is just to keep the doors open and as many of their staff employed as possible. Among my circle of friends, few are making much, if any, profit.
In such circumstances, it's incredibly uncomfortable for the firm when employees approach with their hand out. I'm not saying don't approach your firm. I'd just be terribly sensitive to the consideration outlined above.
"While it may appear that a firm is busy - even hiring - that doesn't necessarily mean the firm is doing anything more than breaking even. "
that is a good point
My old firm, we were incredibly busy, but the firm still went under anyway.
Chances are your bosses have taken pay cuts as well, as has everyone else in the firm. Unless you are that valuable or that underpaid, chances are you will not get your raise simply because you are in the situation everyone else is also in
Most firms it seems want to give everyone their original salaries back at least, and then hopefully make up for raises that have been missed. It obviously cant happen at once and, i think, typically will be given back in increments. Maybe 1-2% every quarter if things are going well.
So for you to come in and expect a bigger chunk than others are getting, can possibly be seen in a negative light
tread carefully
I agree with marmkind - in my opinion- completely depends on how well you firm is really doing so i would try and figure that out first.
I know at my firm there are only a fraction of people who I've heard complain about anything - benefits, work environment, and most of all - the salary freeze that has been in effect for 1.5 yrs.
The smart people that keep their mouths shut dont do it out of fear of being layed off- its because they know the truth about the situation - the owners/principals are making tiny fraction of the salaries they made before the crash.
And the reason they have been barely scraping by? to keep as many of us employed as possible.
You may have a different situation, and if your firm is doing well then absolutely go for it . But if your firm has been struggling lately- before you ask something like that, I would put yourself in that principals' shoes who is selling his house to make it by so that you can keep your job and steady income. Would you like being approached by that person for more money?
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.