I noticed last week in the BSA's newsletter that there is legislation before the MA state senate that would include design professionals in the Mechanics' Lien Law currently on the books.
Does anyone have any insight into this is a viable way to recapture potential lost fees once a project is under construction? Anyone have experience with lien laws as an architect?
Just curious here...but it stood out to be that it was being sponsored by the state division of the AIA, and looked like a good moment in positive action by AIA.
My ARE studies tell that Architects have rights to mechanics liens... Sounds right, but Im not sure how that works actually during construction, since the mechanics lien affects the owners title, what happens? How does an architect actually use this to recapture lost fees? What would the timing be for this? For example when the contractor applies for final payment, they usually are required to provide a release of liens, does an architect do this in any way also? This isn't too clear to me... Need to read more...
I need to read more, too. It's been about a year since I took the CD+S exam, and I'm pretty fuzzy on this. Also, I've never experienced it in practice, which is odd because we often have difficulty with non-paying clients. I think all the examples I've seen have involved GC's or subs filing liens.
"I need an adult!"
Oh, and by the way, here is the excerpt from the BSA newsletter that got me thinking about this:
The AIA Massachusetts Legislative Affairs Committee (LAC) welcomes Senator Karen E. Spilka, lead Senate sponsor of the LAC-proposed amendment to the current Massachusetts Mechanic's Lien statute, on Tuesday, January 12 at 8:30 am at The Architects Building. The amendment would allow licensed design professionals to lien property when the owner and/or developer fails to pay for agreed-upon services. RSVP to John Nunnari Assoc. AIA at [email protected] by January 11.
The architect doesn't have any control over construction, cannot stop work right? The owner can stop work, the contractor can stop work if he is not paid, but the architect cannot do this... So if the architect were to file a mechanics lien (as a measure to get th owner to pay up), would this happen after construction is finished?
Ya I'm studying for CD&S at the moment... This is important stuff, we had issues with getting clients to pay also, seems like this should be something worth having a solid handle of...
The problem with a Mechanics lien in the State of California based for the Contractor is that if its not filed within a short period of time such as a 20 day notice, there is no law to protect the contractor from placing a mechanics lien after a grace period of time. If you apply it to a service provided, it would have to be done within a considerate amount of time; check with county recorder's office of your location for further information. For what I understand, unles it is within your contract stipulating fee schedules and failure to make payments, you are on the loss. It is unfortunate but there should be more clear laws to best aid us when providing services..............
It's definitely a state by state basis. Some allow architects to place liens and some don't. Be aware you need to be within a certian l time line in order to file a lien... For instance my state says you can't file more than 120 days from the completion of services.
Send letters to the client requesting payment and send in a way you can prove it was delivered to them. It's evidence. Document, Document, Document.
I find some clients are just real lazy. When they start to dilly dally I make sure to write in my letter how many times I have requested the payment and how many days past due they are with it. Some get embarassed and will pay right away. If they truly have a beef and don't want to pay they have to explain why...
After a few too many clients dragging their feet paying, after I have supplied them with final drawings. I vowed anyone I don't know real well to get their hand on any substantial work without supplying a check
It's defienlty worth reviewing your states lien laws
Do a google search: " state name"construction lien law
It should come right up. read the part about who is entitled to obtain a lien
For example:
§ 2702. Persons entitled to obtain lien.
(a) It shall be lawful for any person having performed or furnished labor or material, or both, to an amount exceeding $25 in or for the erection, alteration or repair of any structure, in pursuance of any contract, express or implied, with the owners of such structure or with the agent of such owner or with any contractor who has contracted for the erection, alteration or repair of the same and for the furnishing of the whole or any part of the materials therefor, including any person who has performed or furnished labor or material, or both, for or at such structure under a contract with or order from any subcontractor to obtain a lien upon such structure and upon the ground upon which the same may be situated or erected.
(b) Liens may also be obtained in connection with: labor performed and materials furnished in plumbing, gas fitting, paper hanging, paving, placing iron works and machinery of every kind in mills and factories, bridge building, the erection, construction and filling in of wharves, piers and docks and all improvements to land by drainage, dredging, filling in, irrigating and erecting banks and the services rendered and labor performed and materials furnished by architects.
it would have to vary widely by the state you live in - i do remember at a legal seminar i was sent to ages ago one of the architects telling how, at every kickoff meeting he did (his firm did almost exclusively developer driven work), he would tell the owner that if they didn't pay their bills by day 30, on day 31 he was filing a mechanic's lien on the property until they paid up. nothing personal, just business. he didn't get stiffed as far as i know.
the main recourse it would give you to file a lien is, if it's done before the project finishes, it would make it very very difficult for the developer to close/convert the construction loan to permanent financing. so, they get real twitchy about liens come the end of a project. also, this wouldn't have any real force if you're doing a buildout for someone in a space they're just renting - they probably could care less that you've filed the lien against the landlord, although perhaps if their lease had language in it about some kind of penalty for their actions resulting in a lien...
personally, i don't think we're usually 'tough' enough as a profession to follow through on the kind of threat i outlined above. easier for us to whine about it than do it. i'm just saying...
in new mexico we can't file a lien until the permit is pulled.
which makes sense to me because how can an architect file a lien on an unbuilt project, which is any project until the permit is pulled?
Jan 12, 10 10:17 pm ·
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Architects and Lien Laws
I noticed last week in the BSA's newsletter that there is legislation before the MA state senate that would include design professionals in the Mechanics' Lien Law currently on the books.
Does anyone have any insight into this is a viable way to recapture potential lost fees once a project is under construction? Anyone have experience with lien laws as an architect?
Just curious here...but it stood out to be that it was being sponsored by the state division of the AIA, and looked like a good moment in positive action by AIA.
*For those interested, there is some very lengthy documentation here: http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Jun/1/128784.html (down in section C it addresses how this will affect professionals, etc.)
My ARE studies tell that Architects have rights to mechanics liens... Sounds right, but Im not sure how that works actually during construction, since the mechanics lien affects the owners title, what happens? How does an architect actually use this to recapture lost fees? What would the timing be for this? For example when the contractor applies for final payment, they usually are required to provide a release of liens, does an architect do this in any way also? This isn't too clear to me... Need to read more...
I need to read more, too. It's been about a year since I took the CD+S exam, and I'm pretty fuzzy on this. Also, I've never experienced it in practice, which is odd because we often have difficulty with non-paying clients. I think all the examples I've seen have involved GC's or subs filing liens.
"I need an adult!"
Oh, and by the way, here is the excerpt from the BSA newsletter that got me thinking about this:
The AIA Massachusetts Legislative Affairs Committee (LAC) welcomes Senator Karen E. Spilka, lead Senate sponsor of the LAC-proposed amendment to the current Massachusetts Mechanic's Lien statute, on Tuesday, January 12 at 8:30 am at The Architects Building. The amendment would allow licensed design professionals to lien property when the owner and/or developer fails to pay for agreed-upon services. RSVP to John Nunnari Assoc. AIA at [email protected] by January 11.
The architect doesn't have any control over construction, cannot stop work right? The owner can stop work, the contractor can stop work if he is not paid, but the architect cannot do this... So if the architect were to file a mechanics lien (as a measure to get th owner to pay up), would this happen after construction is finished?
Ya I'm studying for CD&S at the moment... This is important stuff, we had issues with getting clients to pay also, seems like this should be something worth having a solid handle of...
The problem with a Mechanics lien in the State of California based for the Contractor is that if its not filed within a short period of time such as a 20 day notice, there is no law to protect the contractor from placing a mechanics lien after a grace period of time. If you apply it to a service provided, it would have to be done within a considerate amount of time; check with county recorder's office of your location for further information. For what I understand, unles it is within your contract stipulating fee schedules and failure to make payments, you are on the loss. It is unfortunate but there should be more clear laws to best aid us when providing services..............
It's definitely a state by state basis. Some allow architects to place liens and some don't. Be aware you need to be within a certian l time line in order to file a lien... For instance my state says you can't file more than 120 days from the completion of services.
Send letters to the client requesting payment and send in a way you can prove it was delivered to them. It's evidence. Document, Document, Document.
I find some clients are just real lazy. When they start to dilly dally I make sure to write in my letter how many times I have requested the payment and how many days past due they are with it. Some get embarassed and will pay right away. If they truly have a beef and don't want to pay they have to explain why...
After a few too many clients dragging their feet paying, after I have supplied them with final drawings. I vowed anyone I don't know real well to get their hand on any substantial work without supplying a check
It's defienlty worth reviewing your states lien laws
Do a google search: " state name"construction lien law
It should come right up. read the part about who is entitled to obtain a lien
For example:
§ 2702. Persons entitled to obtain lien.
(a) It shall be lawful for any person having performed or furnished labor or material, or both, to an amount exceeding $25 in or for the erection, alteration or repair of any structure, in pursuance of any contract, express or implied, with the owners of such structure or with the agent of such owner or with any contractor who has contracted for the erection, alteration or repair of the same and for the furnishing of the whole or any part of the materials therefor, including any person who has performed or furnished labor or material, or both, for or at such structure under a contract with or order from any subcontractor to obtain a lien upon such structure and upon the ground upon which the same may be situated or erected.
(b) Liens may also be obtained in connection with: labor performed and materials furnished in plumbing, gas fitting, paper hanging, paving, placing iron works and machinery of every kind in mills and factories, bridge building, the erection, construction and filling in of wharves, piers and docks and all improvements to land by drainage, dredging, filling in, irrigating and erecting banks and the services rendered and labor performed and materials furnished by architects.
thanks for the insight, it make much more sense now, Studio43!
it would have to vary widely by the state you live in - i do remember at a legal seminar i was sent to ages ago one of the architects telling how, at every kickoff meeting he did (his firm did almost exclusively developer driven work), he would tell the owner that if they didn't pay their bills by day 30, on day 31 he was filing a mechanic's lien on the property until they paid up. nothing personal, just business. he didn't get stiffed as far as i know.
the main recourse it would give you to file a lien is, if it's done before the project finishes, it would make it very very difficult for the developer to close/convert the construction loan to permanent financing. so, they get real twitchy about liens come the end of a project. also, this wouldn't have any real force if you're doing a buildout for someone in a space they're just renting - they probably could care less that you've filed the lien against the landlord, although perhaps if their lease had language in it about some kind of penalty for their actions resulting in a lien...
personally, i don't think we're usually 'tough' enough as a profession to follow through on the kind of threat i outlined above. easier for us to whine about it than do it. i'm just saying...
in new mexico we can't file a lien until the permit is pulled.
which makes sense to me because how can an architect file a lien on an unbuilt project, which is any project until the permit is pulled?
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