There is a "possibility" for me to go to an interview this week or soon. I haven't graduated yet but I'm a senior and hope to graduate next month. I have 6 months of professional experience and 3 months of internship experience. When they ask me about the salary what should I answer? I was getting paid 16$ in my 6 month job and 12.50$ in my internship position but I see 16$ is kind of impossible to get in this economy considering my experience level. To be honest I'm willing to work for a low pay AND part-time as long as I work somewhere related to architecture. I'll wait tables after 5pm,I don't care.. but if I sell myself too low would that cost me the job? I want the experience more than the salary right now so should I just tell them anything a little above the minimum salary would be ok?
$16/hour is roughly 33k a year. That is not too much to be asking at all, especially in NY.
You right in thinking that low-balling your salary will make you seem inexperienced and naive.
Figure out what a fair number would be for someone in your situation and just ask for it.
It will lead to conversations about responsibilities, chances for growth, and career development, all of which are good things to talk about in an interview.
In my opinion 34-40k seems to be a good range for recent grads right now.
i agree with you that experience is more valuable to you right now than money. i would start at 33k-35k. with two years of experience under your belt, i think you could push 42k-45k. hopefully the economy is better by then. good luck and congrats on the interview.
Perhaps you're starting to think about this inappropriately. This is not a 'sealed bid' sort of thing. First of all, your prospective employer's going to know you're inexperienced before you walk in the door. IMO, what you need to be able to demonstrate is that you've done some homework ... i.e. you've talked with some people already working in NYC, you've looked at salary surveys, you've obtained some feedback from discussion boards, etc. You're inexperienced, but you not uninformed. You've got some feel for the market for labor like what you can offer. But, you also understand that the market is dynamic and driven by supply and demand.
Then, you briefly share that information with your prospective employer if the question comes up. But, after you share the information, you ask the employer about his/her firm's view of the appropriate salary for this job and someone with your skills. This gets a dialogue going and together you can work out something that makes mutual sense if they're interested in what you have to offer.
I repeat -- your prospective employer's going to know you don't have a lot of experience with this sort of thing. Use that to your advantage and engage in a discussion about this topic. This is arm-wrestling - it's a conversation aimed at finding common ground. You don't ever have to say you'll work for anything they willing to offer (they probably already know that) - you don't ever have to say you'll work part time. Try to keep the discussion on the value of your work and the value of your skills.
Nobody respects a pushover / nobody respects a hard ass. Most people do respect someone who brings information to the table and then uses that information to support their side of the discussion.
Good luck. And, don't "give away" your services -- you'll regret it later.
Is 16/hr really impossible for fresh out of school? I would think 20 would be just as accessible. If you're going for a full time job wouldn't it be a salary position anyway?
Don't answer the question directly. The evidence shows that 66% of the time answering your salary expectations looses you the job, and 25% of the time it means you get paid less than you could have. Negotiate salary when you have three offers on the table, and pit the two you don't want against each other. Make HR work for a living.
if you made $20 an hour and only worked 40 hours a week, that would be great..... but i think they will work your experience against you and low ball you anyways....especially in this economy...
mespellrong: as someone who does all the hiring for our firm, I'm not going to react well to any candidate who refuses to engage with me on the topic of compensation. I'm not buying wheat - I'm preparing to hire expensive professional talent. In this economy, I have no patience with gamesmanship - when a candidate comes at me in the manner you suggest, I move on to the next candidate. End of story.
Thanks for all your responses.
DesignBandit, I think 16$/hr is what I SHOULD be getting maybe I should get even more than that (I have some knowledge on how to put together construction documents) but that happens in "normal times".We are not living in normal conditions right now with all these people getting laid off or getting their salaries reduced. I'm aware I should be getting in the range of 28k-35k if I work full time but I'm just scared to ask that only because of the economy.
Also I'm not sure if the NYC folk is getting paid more than Long Island(where I currently live) folk.
"Negotiate salary when you have three offers on the table, and pit the two you don't want against each other."
I'm not sure what you mean by that mespellrong. From what I read, you should NEVER discuss the salary if they didn't tell you they absolutely want you on the team but almost all the employers try to get that salary stuff out of your mouth in the first interview and I absolutely hate the "person who is willing to work for the lowest wage wins" rule some companies have! You say you want 15$ p/h and the other person says 14$ and they get the job. It is so unfair.I'm thinking of asking what they have in mind and ask what their range is before giving them my offer..
i didnt get to see your last post but ..NYC is more ..it also depends on what your working on ..if its residential houses ..then its probably gonna be at least a couple of dollars less
file -- in the last three years, compensation in the profession has gone up, despite the general decline in the economy. if someone with good prospects wants to earn proportional compensation, they have to earn it by negotiating like a professional. if you want to walk away from someone who can negotiate well, that's your affair.
Interesting topic. I am also close to finishing my undergrad BS degree, but I have no professional experience (our school doesn't have internships). Firms around here seem to have no interest in hiring someone with less than a years experience.
As a point of reference, my last job earned me about 16k a year. I could never imagine holding out for 33k (though NYC is more expensive to live in than Milwaukee), I would be happy with 25k. Honestly at this point, given the economy, I would settle for 20k just to get the experience.
Is that a tactic intentionally used by firms, saying we're only looking for people with experience, knowing that people from college won't have any, so they can pay them less, or nothing?
mespellrong: you misunderstand my post. I have no difficulty whatsoever finding, hiring, and retaining very good employees. I just have no tolerance, or need, for individuals who think salary negotiations are a "game" where one has to lose in order for the other to win.
Sit down with me and discuss the topic honestly and openly and we'll have a fine relationship. There'll be give and take on both sides and we'll find a solution that works for both parties. But introduce arrogance and one-upsmanship and "I'm going to get one over on you" into the equation during the hiring process and I'm going to know that individual is not right for our culture.
In this economy and this labor market, I don't need to disrupt our culture in order to bring top talent on board.
i wouldn't expect much of a "salary negotiation". for a new graduate with modest work experience more likely they will offer, for example's sake, $10 per hour (based on a number that fits their budget). if your decline, then they offer to their second choice candidate & so on. congratulations, you have dignity but no job & are no closer to becoming an architect.
for a recent graduate looking for work, it's probably best to keep reminding yourself that you have accomplished nothing and are a nobody.
as far as real negotiations are concerned, one of the more amusing anecdotes that i heard came for that guy in the band weezer. he said that he mastered the art by negotiating with prostitutes. once he figured out how to negotiate with naked women, dealing with record executives seemed like a piece of cake.
this is likely a job you'll have for a year or two---then you'll move on to better things. I wouldn't over-think it, if it's a decent place, just get the job.
1. Don't lowball your initial asking salary, but do give some context/explanation for the number (i.e. this is what I made at my last job, etc.). This gives your potential employer the opportunity to have a discussion w/ you about salary, rather than just saying yes/no.
2. I was hiring fresh out of school employees at $40K 2 years ago...but the reality is, if I had enough work to hire (I wish), I would not pay more than $32K. This isn't because I'm a jerk...it's because I cannot charge the same fees to my clients as I was 2 years ago...they'd hire someone else. It sucks for you, sucks for me (I'm making much less too), but that's the way it's going to be for a while.
it's because I cannot charge the same fees to my clients as I was 2 years ago...they'd hire someone else.
Leads to....
The start of a lost generation
Over the past year I've seen long term loyal clients squeeze the fees like nothing else. We are basically working at a "break even" point right now...and that level is at our reduced wages/benefits. Since firms cannot collude to "price fix" fees are we destined to giving away our services until the next boom?
I can completely relate to comments like"I'm making much less too". Then again that can only go on for so long. My vehicle isn't getting any newer, the grocery bill isn't getting smaller, property taxes are up, the mortgage isn't going away. The easy cuts like meals out and cable tv were gone a long time ago. The only way to get some more income is to get promoted (fat chance right now in this profession) or find different employment. Quite honestly, I'm not sure how long I can hold out for a promotion.
please don't undervalue yourself, even in a bad economy. it's not good for you, your employer, or the rest of us who are connected to you via the profession.
According to my favorite unemployment book- What Color is Your Parachute- the first person to suggest the salary is immediately at the disadvantage. So, try to get THEM to suggest one to you first, and THEN you negotiate...
sbeth85 - great idea, except that every employer worth their salt already knows the gambit and has the luxury of 20 more qualified people to choose from if backed into that corner.
the line of thinking that says be upfront, give some context, and see what they say. if the firm is looking for the cheapest person, you might be glad in the long run if you're not it.
I think too many of you people are missing the bigger picture here.
While there's definitely a certain amount of negotiation that can take place during a job search, it's way more important to focus on a) what the individual candidate can actually deliver in the way of value to the firm, and b) how does that value translate into compensation. This involves more than a superficial conversation about pay and it's definitely NOT about who goes first. Playing these silly games is a sure sign of insecurity. It's also an indication that you really don't know how to conduct a meaningful conversation about what you're worth to the company and how that value will benefit the firm.
We're not bidding on a Picasso here ... we're looking for people who can help us serve our clients by doing productive work in an efficient manner. If you can't explain how you're going to do that, it really doesn't matter who makes the first offer. If I don't understand what you can bring to the table and how that benefits my clients, I'm not going to be interested in making you an offer.
Paradox, some advice from an architect who has survived three significant recessions, and still employed now:
1. Ask yourself: "how much do I want this job?" Be careful not to offend your potential employer. Seeming arrogant while inexperienced is a bad combination. Advise interviewer of your salary history, and ask salary range is for position. Fit your expectations and your "perfect fit" for position into mid-range.
2. Realize there are literally hundreds of other candidates. Chicago Magazine just printed an article quoting an unemployment rate of "20% to 60%" for Chicago architects, and article was probably written in early November. Now Dubai has officially collapsed, and likely to take Mideast speculative real estate market with it. Mideast market sector is probably dead, with exception of government-sponsored contracts and war-related reconstruction projects.
3. Realize that there are always more qualified candidates for your prospective position. Aggressive salary negotiations flag a potentially difficult employee. Perhaps with truly stellar qualifications and/or experience, this could be overlooked; but you're not a star architect yet, and not bringing established client-base to firm, so be very very nice. Several thousand dollars more in clumsy "salary expectation" talk could squander your opportunity for employment.
4. Recognize that many people early in their career are subsidized by family and/or spouse. Examine your budget and see whether you can "afford" job after factoring in living expenses, debt service on loans, etc. Firm won't compensate you over your relative value to firm, even if you can't personally afford particular salary. It's not personal, but an unhappy employee is not likely to last when lay-off lists are prepared.
5. It's advantageous to be a relatively less expensive but valued employee from a "cost vs value" basis for employee assessments, where firm perceives you as a good-value employee who produces significantly more than your "cost-to-firm".
also what do you mean by internship and 'professional experience' aren't they the same thing? i did co-op at cincinnati, and i say that my title was an architectural intern..
is this not what i should be calling it? they were paid jobs. and i was a team member, not a coffee runner.
I WANT the job! BAD!! It is a life and death situation. Yes I'm desperate but I'll try not to low-ball the salary (I need to pay for rent,auto insurance,transportation,food etc. I've got BILLS) and I won't go too high either. Seems like it is a basic drafting position and from what I noticed architecture firms don't go ga-ga on the construction details! Personally I LOOOVE the details.Anyway..My architectural internship was much easier than my job at the construction firm..
I think internship experience and professional experience is the same thing or at least it should be! Though I admit my "regular job" felt much more professional than my internship position (I felt like they were baby sitting me in the office) and I never brought people coffee..Is that why they let me go?
Do what you gotta do ...only you know what your priorities are ..these are extraordinary times ...on LI i wouldnt settle for less than 16/hr ..get your foot in the door see how things go then after a year ask for more
Paradox: ask interviewer to identify salary range, and then decide whether you can fit into that wage scale and "live with it". It's highly unlikely that firm will pay you more than wage scale, unless you're a well-connected connection to firm principals. And unless it's a small firm and principal is conducting interview personally, it's also likely that salary range has been defined upfront, fixed, and interviewer is bound by that range with little discretion.
You may feel you have substantiative experience, but to a middle-aged architect interviewing you, you are young, inexperienced, and in need of further professional supervision. Your skills really will be evaluated AFTER you're hired, in the day-to-day context, and you'll either prove your value or else get asked to leave (because these days there are so many job candidates).
Milwaukee08-absolutely-pretty sure the only reason I got hired was because of my greenhorn status and willingness to stomach a fair amount of bull shit. to the haters that say you are de-valuing the profession, I say: Get a clue, NO ONE values this profession any more [there is an absolute excess of space; com/res whatevs] , adapt and figure out a new way to practice architecture. also, make enough to eat.
Also,in that two firms I worked for I didn't fill out any tax forms so we didn't report anything to the IRS..is this common for small firms? And only the big firms offer insurance?
Whoa ... those two firms didn't process tax withholdings on your earnings? Aside from the trouble they may be in, you need to get yourself right with the IRS if you haven't aleady done so. This can lead to big, BIG trouble for you.
While I suppose in some areas insurance may be offered only by the bigger firms, in most parts of the country any firm of any size that wants to be taken seriously by its employees is going to make some effort to provide insurance, even if they ask the employee to pay a part of the premium. Our firm is only 20 people and we pay the full premium on all of our employees -- it's pretty decent insurance.
Looking at his original post and latest post, I'm guessing that Parad0xx86 is being hired as an independent contractor (judging by the hourly pay rate, part-time status, and no benefits) in which case the firm would not withhold taxes and the employee would be responsible for paying taxes to the IRS on their earnings.
Why are people so quick to announce that they are 'hiring managers' here?
I think it's silly and pretentious to say that you 'move on to the next...' candidate in hiring negotiations when the topic of compensation comes up.
I think any prospective employee should spend some time researching and evaluating their skills and what thos skills translate to a business, not another design per se and come to a defensible, satisfactory range they believe they have earned through education, experience and hard work.
If hiring managers were only interested in hiring to the lowest common denominator there would be no point in going to college, learning a craft, and getting experience to one day do the job of your manager. It's the natural order of things in the professional world which somehow has gone askew in the last, I dont know, decade? Where workers are willing to work for wages less than the cost of living while accumulating more and more debt.
What kind of project/hring managers do you think this philosophy breeds?
Aww yes I read that article.I'm still saving that magazine..gives me nightmares but it reminds me I'm not the only student in US who is struggling to get a job.
Experience, perhaps, I have friends that have 8+ years experience that are worried about their jobs, so I don't expect to get a job in architecture any time soon. Once I finally get my degree I just hope to get a job that doesn't involve me: a) making food or b) cleaning toilets.
Does your school do anything to help students find jobs? Ours has something called Interview Day that they do in May, firms come in and students can sign up for interviews with them. Though I'm guessing many aren't actually looking for anyone to hire, but they still come to be polite to the school for those years when they do need to hire people.
They also keep a binder of any companies that fax or email them looking to hire, though the last time I checked they said they only had three, two were temporary and one was a 9 hour drive away in Pittsburgh.
"Does your school do anything to help students find jobs? Ours has something called Interview Day that they do in May, firms come in and students can sign up for interviews with them. Though I'm guessing many aren't actually looking for anyone to hire, but they still come to be polite to the school for those years when they do need to hire people."
Milwaukee yes I attended my school's career fair last year and there was only about 8-9 firms there(in the past years it never was under 30-40 employers) and there were about 150-200 applicants so as you can imagine,the lines were really long! I remember waiting about 20 minutes to talk to one employer.I'm not sure if they were all hiring and just attended just "to be polite" because some people from my school were actually working for them..They were tired of talking to people so after you endured the long line to talk to them they just checked out your resume and your portfolio for about 2-3 minutes and kept the resume and told you "they will notify you" later on. I think career fairs are so useless because employers get tired quickly after talking to a few candidates (I don't blame them) so after half an hour, batteries get drained on both sides so they can't conduct a meaningful interview. Unless you have an excellent background,a LOT of experience and a portfolio (which is hard to have for a college student or a grad) they won't give you a chance. Same goes for online job ads. A job post gets an average of 300 replies.
So back to the firm I interviewed with..can I ask them if they know any other firms who may be hiring? Is it fair to let them know I'm also "interested to work in other places" other than them??
And remonio..until you started working for that firm how much previous experience did you have? You said 17 years ago,so it was in 1992. I'm assuming it was after the recession?
One more question which is NOT related to the main topic: What did the firms write on newspapers etc. to seek employees? Now most employers say they want people with AutoCAD skills and not much else,it is like the priority. I'm wondering how they weeded out candidates before the AutoCAD was invented.. 0_O
Actually about my last question..I was pondering about it and I'm guessing it IS related to the main discussion topic. My theory: manual drafting=labor intensive AutoCAD=not so much labor intensive which may have some effect on the salaries these days?
Dec 7, 09 2:16 am ·
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Danger! Salary Negotiations!
There is a "possibility" for me to go to an interview this week or soon. I haven't graduated yet but I'm a senior and hope to graduate next month. I have 6 months of professional experience and 3 months of internship experience. When they ask me about the salary what should I answer? I was getting paid 16$ in my 6 month job and 12.50$ in my internship position but I see 16$ is kind of impossible to get in this economy considering my experience level. To be honest I'm willing to work for a low pay AND part-time as long as I work somewhere related to architecture. I'll wait tables after 5pm,I don't care.. but if I sell myself too low would that cost me the job? I want the experience more than the salary right now so should I just tell them anything a little above the minimum salary would be ok?
I'm in NY by the way..
$16/hour is roughly 33k a year. That is not too much to be asking at all, especially in NY.
You right in thinking that low-balling your salary will make you seem inexperienced and naive.
Figure out what a fair number would be for someone in your situation and just ask for it.
It will lead to conversations about responsibilities, chances for growth, and career development, all of which are good things to talk about in an interview.
In my opinion 34-40k seems to be a good range for recent grads right now.
Good luck in the interview.
$16 x 2080hr=$33280/yr.
u should be getting 40g/yr at the very least in NYC......
people like u is whats bringing this profession to the pits...
have some selfworth for god sakes!
totally agree with niro.
I have a 4 year degree though..
i agree with you that experience is more valuable to you right now than money. i would start at 33k-35k. with two years of experience under your belt, i think you could push 42k-45k. hopefully the economy is better by then. good luck and congrats on the interview.
Perhaps you're starting to think about this inappropriately. This is not a 'sealed bid' sort of thing. First of all, your prospective employer's going to know you're inexperienced before you walk in the door. IMO, what you need to be able to demonstrate is that you've done some homework ... i.e. you've talked with some people already working in NYC, you've looked at salary surveys, you've obtained some feedback from discussion boards, etc. You're inexperienced, but you not uninformed. You've got some feel for the market for labor like what you can offer. But, you also understand that the market is dynamic and driven by supply and demand.
Then, you briefly share that information with your prospective employer if the question comes up. But, after you share the information, you ask the employer about his/her firm's view of the appropriate salary for this job and someone with your skills. This gets a dialogue going and together you can work out something that makes mutual sense if they're interested in what you have to offer.
I repeat -- your prospective employer's going to know you don't have a lot of experience with this sort of thing. Use that to your advantage and engage in a discussion about this topic. This is arm-wrestling - it's a conversation aimed at finding common ground. You don't ever have to say you'll work for anything they willing to offer (they probably already know that) - you don't ever have to say you'll work part time. Try to keep the discussion on the value of your work and the value of your skills.
Nobody respects a pushover / nobody respects a hard ass. Most people do respect someone who brings information to the table and then uses that information to support their side of the discussion.
Good luck. And, don't "give away" your services -- you'll regret it later.
Is 16/hr really impossible for fresh out of school? I would think 20 would be just as accessible. If you're going for a full time job wouldn't it be a salary position anyway?
Don't answer the question directly. The evidence shows that 66% of the time answering your salary expectations looses you the job, and 25% of the time it means you get paid less than you could have. Negotiate salary when you have three offers on the table, and pit the two you don't want against each other. Make HR work for a living.
if you made $20 an hour and only worked 40 hours a week, that would be great..... but i think they will work your experience against you and low ball you anyways....especially in this economy...
mespellrong: as someone who does all the hiring for our firm, I'm not going to react well to any candidate who refuses to engage with me on the topic of compensation. I'm not buying wheat - I'm preparing to hire expensive professional talent. In this economy, I have no patience with gamesmanship - when a candidate comes at me in the manner you suggest, I move on to the next candidate. End of story.
Thanks for all your responses.
DesignBandit, I think 16$/hr is what I SHOULD be getting maybe I should get even more than that (I have some knowledge on how to put together construction documents) but that happens in "normal times".We are not living in normal conditions right now with all these people getting laid off or getting their salaries reduced. I'm aware I should be getting in the range of 28k-35k if I work full time but I'm just scared to ask that only because of the economy.
Also I'm not sure if the NYC folk is getting paid more than Long Island(where I currently live) folk.
"Negotiate salary when you have three offers on the table, and pit the two you don't want against each other."
I'm not sure what you mean by that mespellrong. From what I read, you should NEVER discuss the salary if they didn't tell you they absolutely want you on the team but almost all the employers try to get that salary stuff out of your mouth in the first interview and I absolutely hate the "person who is willing to work for the lowest wage wins" rule some companies have! You say you want 15$ p/h and the other person says 14$ and they get the job. It is so unfair.I'm thinking of asking what they have in mind and ask what their range is before giving them my offer..
If i was in your shoes id probably ask for $20/hr ..or maybe even $19(to sound not to high) ..and then let them work you down to about $18/hr
i live and work in NYC ..and with the competition and your need for exp. i think that would be not to low ..and not to high
i didnt get to see your last post but ..NYC is more ..it also depends on what your working on ..if its residential houses ..then its probably gonna be at least a couple of dollars less
file -- in the last three years, compensation in the profession has gone up, despite the general decline in the economy. if someone with good prospects wants to earn proportional compensation, they have to earn it by negotiating like a professional. if you want to walk away from someone who can negotiate well, that's your affair.
Interesting topic. I am also close to finishing my undergrad BS degree, but I have no professional experience (our school doesn't have internships). Firms around here seem to have no interest in hiring someone with less than a years experience.
As a point of reference, my last job earned me about 16k a year. I could never imagine holding out for 33k (though NYC is more expensive to live in than Milwaukee), I would be happy with 25k. Honestly at this point, given the economy, I would settle for 20k just to get the experience.
Is that a tactic intentionally used by firms, saying we're only looking for people with experience, knowing that people from college won't have any, so they can pay them less, or nothing?
The start of a lost generation begins.
mespellrong: you misunderstand my post. I have no difficulty whatsoever finding, hiring, and retaining very good employees. I just have no tolerance, or need, for individuals who think salary negotiations are a "game" where one has to lose in order for the other to win.
Sit down with me and discuss the topic honestly and openly and we'll have a fine relationship. There'll be give and take on both sides and we'll find a solution that works for both parties. But introduce arrogance and one-upsmanship and "I'm going to get one over on you" into the equation during the hiring process and I'm going to know that individual is not right for our culture.
In this economy and this labor market, I don't need to disrupt our culture in order to bring top talent on board.
and, that statement's simply not true. Wages rose through the middle of 2008, but have taken a pounding across the board since then.
i wouldn't expect much of a "salary negotiation". for a new graduate with modest work experience more likely they will offer, for example's sake, $10 per hour (based on a number that fits their budget). if your decline, then they offer to their second choice candidate & so on. congratulations, you have dignity but no job & are no closer to becoming an architect.
for a recent graduate looking for work, it's probably best to keep reminding yourself that you have accomplished nothing and are a nobody.
as far as real negotiations are concerned, one of the more amusing anecdotes that i heard came for that guy in the band weezer. he said that he mastered the art by negotiating with prostitutes. once he figured out how to negotiate with naked women, dealing with record executives seemed like a piece of cake.
this is likely a job you'll have for a year or two---then you'll move on to better things. I wouldn't over-think it, if it's a decent place, just get the job.
Two things...
1. Don't lowball your initial asking salary, but do give some context/explanation for the number (i.e. this is what I made at my last job, etc.). This gives your potential employer the opportunity to have a discussion w/ you about salary, rather than just saying yes/no.
2. I was hiring fresh out of school employees at $40K 2 years ago...but the reality is, if I had enough work to hire (I wish), I would not pay more than $32K. This isn't because I'm a jerk...it's because I cannot charge the same fees to my clients as I was 2 years ago...they'd hire someone else. It sucks for you, sucks for me (I'm making much less too), but that's the way it's going to be for a while.
Leads to....
The start of a lost generation
Over the past year I've seen long term loyal clients squeeze the fees like nothing else. We are basically working at a "break even" point right now...and that level is at our reduced wages/benefits. Since firms cannot collude to "price fix" fees are we destined to giving away our services until the next boom?
I can completely relate to comments like"I'm making much less too". Then again that can only go on for so long. My vehicle isn't getting any newer, the grocery bill isn't getting smaller, property taxes are up, the mortgage isn't going away. The easy cuts like meals out and cable tv were gone a long time ago. The only way to get some more income is to get promoted (fat chance right now in this profession) or find different employment. Quite honestly, I'm not sure how long I can hold out for a promotion.
Parad0xx86,
i think u should just wait tables full time, cause ur not getting out of the office after 5pm, try after 7pm.
u can probably make over $20hr w/tips at a busy pizza joint
please don't undervalue yourself, even in a bad economy. it's not good for you, your employer, or the rest of us who are connected to you via the profession.
According to my favorite unemployment book- What Color is Your Parachute- the first person to suggest the salary is immediately at the disadvantage. So, try to get THEM to suggest one to you first, and THEN you negotiate...
sbeth85 - great idea, except that every employer worth their salt already knows the gambit and has the luxury of 20 more qualified people to choose from if backed into that corner.
the line of thinking that says be upfront, give some context, and see what they say. if the firm is looking for the cheapest person, you might be glad in the long run if you're not it.
I think too many of you people are missing the bigger picture here.
While there's definitely a certain amount of negotiation that can take place during a job search, it's way more important to focus on a) what the individual candidate can actually deliver in the way of value to the firm, and b) how does that value translate into compensation. This involves more than a superficial conversation about pay and it's definitely NOT about who goes first. Playing these silly games is a sure sign of insecurity. It's also an indication that you really don't know how to conduct a meaningful conversation about what you're worth to the company and how that value will benefit the firm.
We're not bidding on a Picasso here ... we're looking for people who can help us serve our clients by doing productive work in an efficient manner. If you can't explain how you're going to do that, it really doesn't matter who makes the first offer. If I don't understand what you can bring to the table and how that benefits my clients, I'm not going to be interested in making you an offer.
Paradox, some advice from an architect who has survived three significant recessions, and still employed now:
1. Ask yourself: "how much do I want this job?" Be careful not to offend your potential employer. Seeming arrogant while inexperienced is a bad combination. Advise interviewer of your salary history, and ask salary range is for position. Fit your expectations and your "perfect fit" for position into mid-range.
2. Realize there are literally hundreds of other candidates. Chicago Magazine just printed an article quoting an unemployment rate of "20% to 60%" for Chicago architects, and article was probably written in early November. Now Dubai has officially collapsed, and likely to take Mideast speculative real estate market with it. Mideast market sector is probably dead, with exception of government-sponsored contracts and war-related reconstruction projects.
3. Realize that there are always more qualified candidates for your prospective position. Aggressive salary negotiations flag a potentially difficult employee. Perhaps with truly stellar qualifications and/or experience, this could be overlooked; but you're not a star architect yet, and not bringing established client-base to firm, so be very very nice. Several thousand dollars more in clumsy "salary expectation" talk could squander your opportunity for employment.
4. Recognize that many people early in their career are subsidized by family and/or spouse. Examine your budget and see whether you can "afford" job after factoring in living expenses, debt service on loans, etc. Firm won't compensate you over your relative value to firm, even if you can't personally afford particular salary. It's not personal, but an unhappy employee is not likely to last when lay-off lists are prepared.
5. It's advantageous to be a relatively less expensive but valued employee from a "cost vs value" basis for employee assessments, where firm perceives you as a good-value employee who produces significantly more than your "cost-to-firm".
also what do you mean by internship and 'professional experience' aren't they the same thing? i did co-op at cincinnati, and i say that my title was an architectural intern..
is this not what i should be calling it? they were paid jobs. and i was a team member, not a coffee runner.
I WANT the job! BAD!! It is a life and death situation. Yes I'm desperate but I'll try not to low-ball the salary (I need to pay for rent,auto insurance,transportation,food etc. I've got BILLS) and I won't go too high either. Seems like it is a basic drafting position and from what I noticed architecture firms don't go ga-ga on the construction details! Personally I LOOOVE the details.Anyway..My architectural internship was much easier than my job at the construction firm..
I think internship experience and professional experience is the same thing or at least it should be! Though I admit my "regular job" felt much more professional than my internship position (I felt like they were baby sitting me in the office) and I never brought people coffee..Is that why they let me go?
Do what you gotta do ...only you know what your priorities are ..these are extraordinary times ...on LI i wouldnt settle for less than 16/hr ..get your foot in the door see how things go then after a year ask for more
Paradox: ask interviewer to identify salary range, and then decide whether you can fit into that wage scale and "live with it". It's highly unlikely that firm will pay you more than wage scale, unless you're a well-connected connection to firm principals. And unless it's a small firm and principal is conducting interview personally, it's also likely that salary range has been defined upfront, fixed, and interviewer is bound by that range with little discretion.
You may feel you have substantiative experience, but to a middle-aged architect interviewing you, you are young, inexperienced, and in need of further professional supervision. Your skills really will be evaluated AFTER you're hired, in the day-to-day context, and you'll either prove your value or else get asked to leave (because these days there are so many job candidates).
Good luck, be confident but realistic.
Milwaukee08-absolutely-pretty sure the only reason I got hired was because of my greenhorn status and willingness to stomach a fair amount of bull shit. to the haters that say you are de-valuing the profession, I say: Get a clue, NO ONE values this profession any more [there is an absolute excess of space; com/res whatevs] , adapt and figure out a new way to practice architecture. also, make enough to eat.
Also,in that two firms I worked for I didn't fill out any tax forms so we didn't report anything to the IRS..is this common for small firms? And only the big firms offer insurance?
Whoa ... those two firms didn't process tax withholdings on your earnings? Aside from the trouble they may be in, you need to get yourself right with the IRS if you haven't aleady done so. This can lead to big, BIG trouble for you.
While I suppose in some areas insurance may be offered only by the bigger firms, in most parts of the country any firm of any size that wants to be taken seriously by its employees is going to make some effort to provide insurance, even if they ask the employee to pay a part of the premium. Our firm is only 20 people and we pay the full premium on all of our employees -- it's pretty decent insurance.
Looking at his original post and latest post, I'm guessing that Parad0xx86 is being hired as an independent contractor (judging by the hourly pay rate, part-time status, and no benefits) in which case the firm would not withhold taxes and the employee would be responsible for paying taxes to the IRS on their earnings.
The Lost Generation:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_42/b4151032038302.htm
Why are people so quick to announce that they are 'hiring managers' here?
I think it's silly and pretentious to say that you 'move on to the next...' candidate in hiring negotiations when the topic of compensation comes up.
I think any prospective employee should spend some time researching and evaluating their skills and what thos skills translate to a business, not another design per se and come to a defensible, satisfactory range they believe they have earned through education, experience and hard work.
If hiring managers were only interested in hiring to the lowest common denominator there would be no point in going to college, learning a craft, and getting experience to one day do the job of your manager. It's the natural order of things in the professional world which somehow has gone askew in the last, I dont know, decade? Where workers are willing to work for wages less than the cost of living while accumulating more and more debt.
What kind of project/hring managers do you think this philosophy breeds?
Aww yes I read that article.I'm still saving that magazine..gives me nightmares but it reminds me I'm not the only student in US who is struggling to get a job.
Larchinect: you might do well to read other people's posts more carefully before you start throwing stones.
Thanks for the feedback.I didn't get the job.I don't know what the other candidate who got the job had that I didn't have. :(
This might help
http://finance.yahoo.com/personal-finance/article/108264/top-paying-jobs
nice reality check
Experience, perhaps, I have friends that have 8+ years experience that are worried about their jobs, so I don't expect to get a job in architecture any time soon. Once I finally get my degree I just hope to get a job that doesn't involve me: a) making food or b) cleaning toilets.
Does your school do anything to help students find jobs? Ours has something called Interview Day that they do in May, firms come in and students can sign up for interviews with them. Though I'm guessing many aren't actually looking for anyone to hire, but they still come to be polite to the school for those years when they do need to hire people.
They also keep a binder of any companies that fax or email them looking to hire, though the last time I checked they said they only had three, two were temporary and one was a 9 hour drive away in Pittsburgh.
Parad0xx86:
Food for thought -I was earning $16 /hr at my first job 17 years ago.
- That was at an architecture firm in NYC
"Does your school do anything to help students find jobs? Ours has something called Interview Day that they do in May, firms come in and students can sign up for interviews with them. Though I'm guessing many aren't actually looking for anyone to hire, but they still come to be polite to the school for those years when they do need to hire people."
Milwaukee yes I attended my school's career fair last year and there was only about 8-9 firms there(in the past years it never was under 30-40 employers) and there were about 150-200 applicants so as you can imagine,the lines were really long! I remember waiting about 20 minutes to talk to one employer.I'm not sure if they were all hiring and just attended just "to be polite" because some people from my school were actually working for them..They were tired of talking to people so after you endured the long line to talk to them they just checked out your resume and your portfolio for about 2-3 minutes and kept the resume and told you "they will notify you" later on. I think career fairs are so useless because employers get tired quickly after talking to a few candidates (I don't blame them) so after half an hour, batteries get drained on both sides so they can't conduct a meaningful interview. Unless you have an excellent background,a LOT of experience and a portfolio (which is hard to have for a college student or a grad) they won't give you a chance. Same goes for online job ads. A job post gets an average of 300 replies.
So back to the firm I interviewed with..can I ask them if they know any other firms who may be hiring? Is it fair to let them know I'm also "interested to work in other places" other than them??
And remonio..until you started working for that firm how much previous experience did you have? You said 17 years ago,so it was in 1992. I'm assuming it was after the recession?
One more question which is NOT related to the main topic: What did the firms write on newspapers etc. to seek employees? Now most employers say they want people with AutoCAD skills and not much else,it is like the priority. I'm wondering how they weeded out candidates before the AutoCAD was invented.. 0_O
Actually about my last question..I was pondering about it and I'm guessing it IS related to the main discussion topic. My theory: manual drafting=labor intensive AutoCAD=not so much labor intensive which may have some effect on the salaries these days?
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