i would buy a house. but only if it was in a world city centre somewhere and purchased as close to the trough value as possible.
i don't have a credit card. japan is a cash society. doesn't make things easier when banks won't loan because of the huge defaults elsewhere. fingers crossed this isn't going to affect much of the world cuz we have only just begun to find lenders again to finance our projects. two years hunting down banks has not been fun.
credit is not evil, though i have to wonder about the provenance of packaged derivatives.
@ fondue, i hear you. talked to same people and would not wish away their opportunities. it does not make the situation right though, and i don't feel that challenging the system makes me a white elitist. understand your point though. hear it quite often amongst my conservative friends. it has validity, but to me is logical only if you accept profoundly disturbing world system. i am not realist enough to do that yet, but give me a few years, maybe i will be converted ;-)
my favorite part of all the coverage of Dubai's debt is that no one knows how this will shake out. apparently, when asked what sort recovery plan was in the works, Sheik Mohammed bin Rashid Al-Maktoum [dubai's ruler] told the critics to shove it. ahhh that's inspiring.
DUBAI -- The Sunday London Times newspaper was removed by authorities from shelves in the United Arab Emirates on Sunday amid intensive reporting of Dubai's debt problems, an executive at the paper said.
The National Media Council ordered the paper blocked by distributors without providing a reason, an executive at the paper in Dubai told Zawya Dow Jones.
More on Dubai
WSJ.com/Mideast: News, video, graphics
The Sunday Times edition available in the U.A.E. on Nov. 29 featured a double-page spread graphic illustrating Dubai's ruler Sheik Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum sinking in a sea of debt. The Times wasn't given a reason for the block, or a timeframe when it will be lifted, the executive said.
A government official in Abu Dhabi, the capital of the U.A.E., said that the picture of Sheik Mohammed, which accompanied a story entitled: The sinking of Dubai's dream, was "offensive."
Under the U.A.E.'s media code, publications are prohibited from criticizing the sheikdom's rulers. Local media and government officials have criticized international press coverage of Dubai's debt crisis. Markets around the world fell last week after the government requested a debt standstill for one of its biggest conglomerates.
Earlier this month Dubai's Sheik Mohammed told reporters gathered at an investment conference in the city to "shut up" and stop criticizing the emirate and its crucial relationship with Abu Dhabi.
Dubai is struggling to deal with it debts estimated to exceed $80 billion.
The Sunday Times is part of News International, a unit of News Corp., owner of Dow Jones & Co. The Times and The Sunday Times are published in the U.A.E. through a local partner SAB Media.
I don't know why people on this thread are so happy that Dubai has gone to hell financially. Despite their politics (which are incredibly flawed) they were a big source of revenue for architects and designers. Almost anything was possible when Dubai was booming...even ridiculous looking buildings were possible, but at least they pushed some limits. Now all we have is a burned out, abandoned shell of a city to represent the depths of the recession and the depression that follows.
Why is this something to celebrate?...many of us lost our jobs because projects in Dubai vanished. There is no vindication for architects here...just lost revenue and high unemployment. Why are you guys so happy about this?
fondue, I would love to hear your views on the treatment of foreign laborers to create the 'Babylonian exuberance'. Dubai can never be guilt free - Good riddance!
$80b is a massive stack of cash but how does it compare to the total development that has occured in the past 10 years? Part of me wonders if Dubai will default on it's debts only to have the underlying assets purchased at a liquidation sale by other investors for pennies of the original purchase price. Given the way their goverent operates I would not be suprised if this crisis is really a convienant way for them to shake off some of their own debts.
Also, has no one studied what happened to a/e firms working in the gulf in the 80's? A sudden boom-to-bust sceniaro of epic scales has happened before and it will happen again.
And I can not believe you are all happy because of people loosing their jobs and banks their money. Isn't it ironic that the same happened in the US. Or when it happens somewhere else it is ok? Funny, uh...
MacRoen,
because underlying this glee of theirs is racism. why else would they be happy? because they believe americans and arabs are on par? gleeful smug bloodlust. its easier for them to condemn rich arabs as the an externalized icon of whats wrong in this ultra-capitalist world than it is to condemn themselves for their own greed. there are implicit subterranean currents of hatred in their rhetoric despite their explicit claims of otherwise.
sameolddoctor,
would you really love to hear anything other than your own assumptions about my views? because obviously you are deaf to the fact that i had already preemptively answered your request above. in which case, why don't you be my secretary and simply regurgitate here that assumption of yours in my name.
Perhaps thinking we're being racist about it is institutionalizing us as nothing but racists?
The reason I have any glee over it is that, like many of the same real estate practices that have been continued elsewhere in the globe, these practices were doomed from the street.
When the real estate boom was in full swing, I was always lambasted for saying "While density and urbanism is nice, that's the wrong kind of urbanism."
And that's what Dubai ultimately is... it is New Urbanism on state level. But unlike many of the facets of New Urbanism, Dubai didn't seem to be really paying attention to a bottom line... or any bottom line.
Abu Dhabi is slightly more conservative in some regards but not by much.
I simple condemn all tower builders, speculative real estate interests and people unwilling to break tradition... and that tradition seems to be breaking the previous tradition.
It's one thing to pull a Napoleon and go all Haussmen. It's quite another to pull a Dubai.
At least when Napoleon threw France into bankruptcy over his lust for master planning and beauty, Paris seemed to immediately feel the benefits from it and continued to do so for close to 150 years.
The only other issue I have outright with Middle Easterners is not an issue of race... but an issue of religion. You cannot angrily demand religious quality, take that freedom to an extreme and then complain about everyone telling you to "tone it down."
All of these countries in Europe and even somewhat in the US have been moving towards more secular societies. The draw here with religious freedom and the outright display of religion of course draws people from around the world who have been persecuted for their sect of religion or the religion they believe in.
But don't be calling the race card in a place like France who, for the most part, has done everything they can to move away from organized religion for close to a century.
I wonder if Dubai will become the first luxury empty ghost city, and will be the next right thing for Dubai to do? Sell oil for double the price or build the largest solar farm?
Fondue, I'd just like to point out that I don't feel any racism towards Arabs (that's your word - I feel a bit icky about using it, it seems a bit racist. Arabic or Middle Eastern feels less offensive to me, but I'm admittedly ignorant on the most respectful term.). I'm offended by any super-conservative and thus oppressive worldview, which Dubai's power structure seems to share with a lot of white evangelical Americans.
My only "glee" at the fall of Dubai is in seeing such unsustainable and excessive overuse of resources stop. Yes, America has been as guilty of this excess over the last decades too - and if the coming years make it stop or slow down, that will be overall good for all of us, though terribly painful. Yes, it's sad that a lot of work for architects has disappeared, but I don't think Dubai is a very good example of the best that we're capable of building, anyway.
the arabs don't have any choice... the US is sucking out their oil, in return giving them deflating dollars... they can't buy commodities futures to secure their profit because 80% of contracts are owned by hedge funds, goldman sachs, retirement funds (i.e the price is controlled by US)...
the only choice for them is to dump it at properties, at least the money is still in their own soil.
the underlying issue, in my opinion, is the desire to create/mock a capitalist system. we are just now beginning to see how very unsuccessful capitalism is... especially when left unrestrained to greed.
“Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate” (B.Russell)
they aren't tyrants because they're racist... they screw you no matter what race you are- because you're not as wealthy as they are- and they exist to make sure you never will be.
Hmm, I am not sure how capitalism 'doesn't work'. It sure has worked well for most of the world for a long time now. Obviously unregulated greed/power taken to abusive levels is bad anyway you look at it, that goes without saying.
Everyone screws everyone, always has, and as long as humans remain in control, always will.
Personally, I think that we will, or could, have a much greater growth and prosperity. At least in the US, there is so much room for rapid transit, master planned connections, etc.
Now if we could just keep our money here and invest in our own country...
Dubai was just too much of everything, although there were some impressive things taken on that no one else is even dreaming of doing (mostly do to risk of the unknown).
One massive crazy experiment and gamble. But I sure hope that it does not really go down (and it doesn't look like anyone will let it), as that would take the world down.
We'll be struggling for a while, but if there was another catastrophe in the financial world then we can all kiss life as we know it goodbye.
Orochi Perhaps thinking we're being racist about it is institutionalizing us as nothing but racists?
i don't share your exclusivist logic. i believe someone can be racist and(rather than nothing but) something else, perhaps something better. one can be as pleasant as libery bell, for example, and declaring love here and there yet still carry nuances of racism that even she might be oblivious to. mutifaceted. and i also don't understand why i would have you "institutionalized" as anything.
Orochi The only other issue I have outright with Middle Easterners is not an issue of race... but an issue of religion.
perhaps your issue is neither; perhaps your issue is that you're polemically, an anal contrary individual chronically addicted to your captious sense of betterness, individually and culturally.
Oh, well how about that Mr. or Mrs. (insert a bunch of vaguely insulting adjectives!).
I should point out how many of those suffer poor syntax but I am not.
The institutionalization part is where you jumped to the conclusion that we're all white and the only possible reason we're happy with Dubai sinking into the ocean is because we like to see "brown races fail."
Pigeonholing and ad hominem attacks are more polemic that anything I've done in this thread.
In fact, I stuck pretty much to the facts. You were the contrarian of rabid repousser when you immediately started making racially-inclined lashes and referring to general opinion as subterranean.
In fact, you were also pretty upset about the whole Porsche World thread in which I declared building a theme park in a desert is a pretty stupid idea.
And you immediately lashed back with the racially charged diatribe that I shouldn't judge.
I hate the UAE because of their continued approach of making the most retarded decisions ever. I may even be a little bit jealous that no one in the US will make the advantageous advancements that the UAE has.
But as retarded as the UAE is, I have not claimed they are retarded because they are arabic or levantine or turkish.
I have claimed, however, that I hate the general muslim population whether they be indonesian or pashtuk or north african. I hate them, and am fully within juris prudence to hate them, because of their actions and inability to play the game everyone else in the world is forced to play.
if someone where to call me an arab, i would be totally nonchalant about it. in actual fact, there is no such thing as an arabic person. there is arabic music, the arabic language, an arabic culture...but there is an arab person or an arab. its a subject - object thing. anyway, is there anything offensive in calling someone a latin american? what you're not oblivious to is the latent racism embedded within the word "arab" by common negative association and not by the consensus of arabs; and as with the word "arab", i would also have no qualms about being called gay or a gay. the denominator is not the word itself, but the manner with which it is wielded.
regretfully and respectfull (because i venture that youre not a knowingly hating person), i find your view on Dubai beyond rational discourse. fine, you stated your opinion and it is rhetorical and cliched.
Fondue, I definitely carry nuances of racism - that's a good way to put it. My logical mind works hard to overcome those subtle, culturally learned, subconscious ways I feel racist thoughts. I know they are there, and eradicating them is a lifelong effort.
Just today, at a seminar, I referred to an African American architect I know by the name of another African American architect we both know. I apologized immediately, but I felt - still do - like a total asshole.
Anyway, back to Dubai. The photos in the Archinect news article are really gorgeous, as photographs. Very sad, too.
Dubai is officially broke.
lol.
i would buy a house. but only if it was in a world city centre somewhere and purchased as close to the trough value as possible.
i don't have a credit card. japan is a cash society. doesn't make things easier when banks won't loan because of the huge defaults elsewhere. fingers crossed this isn't going to affect much of the world cuz we have only just begun to find lenders again to finance our projects. two years hunting down banks has not been fun.
credit is not evil, though i have to wonder about the provenance of packaged derivatives.
@ fondue, i hear you. talked to same people and would not wish away their opportunities. it does not make the situation right though, and i don't feel that challenging the system makes me a white elitist. understand your point though. hear it quite often amongst my conservative friends. it has validity, but to me is logical only if you accept profoundly disturbing world system. i am not realist enough to do that yet, but give me a few years, maybe i will be converted ;-)
my favorite part of all the coverage of Dubai's debt is that no one knows how this will shake out. apparently, when asked what sort recovery plan was in the works, Sheik Mohammed bin Rashid Al-Maktoum [dubai's ruler] told the critics to shove it. ahhh that's inspiring.
Then, earlier this month, he told Dubai's critics to "shut up."
If Abu Dhabi doesn't back stop this, RBS and another big English bank, whose name eludes me, may fail.
This could cause another global financial crisis.
And to make Orhan feel better, California maybe next. ;-)
It's bad all over and there are a number of states here in the USA that are in very serious trouble.
The sheik has a big interest in Citigroup.
So let it happen, let the financial collapse happen!
Will this help wipe out my student loans and give us a fresh start?
I am talking about new beginning, new world, its clear this world is not working, its time for new 21st century!
so, zen m., you are thinking something like that new flick "The Road"?
That's about were we'd be headed if there truly was a world wide meltdown. I'd certainly be stocking up on guns, food and booze.
Greece and Ireland could be next.
The UAE said they would backstop Dubai.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/business/global/30dubai.html?hp
Crisis averted.
Now the dudes at the UAE are banning the London Times for writing about the financial crisis:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125949749179768285.html?mod=article-outset-box
DUBAI -- The Sunday London Times newspaper was removed by authorities from shelves in the United Arab Emirates on Sunday amid intensive reporting of Dubai's debt problems, an executive at the paper said.
The National Media Council ordered the paper blocked by distributors without providing a reason, an executive at the paper in Dubai told Zawya Dow Jones.
More on Dubai
WSJ.com/Mideast: News, video, graphics
The Sunday Times edition available in the U.A.E. on Nov. 29 featured a double-page spread graphic illustrating Dubai's ruler Sheik Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum sinking in a sea of debt. The Times wasn't given a reason for the block, or a timeframe when it will be lifted, the executive said.
A government official in Abu Dhabi, the capital of the U.A.E., said that the picture of Sheik Mohammed, which accompanied a story entitled: The sinking of Dubai's dream, was "offensive."
Under the U.A.E.'s media code, publications are prohibited from criticizing the sheikdom's rulers. Local media and government officials have criticized international press coverage of Dubai's debt crisis. Markets around the world fell last week after the government requested a debt standstill for one of its biggest conglomerates.
Earlier this month Dubai's Sheik Mohammed told reporters gathered at an investment conference in the city to "shut up" and stop criticizing the emirate and its crucial relationship with Abu Dhabi.
Dubai is struggling to deal with it debts estimated to exceed $80 billion.
The Sunday Times is part of News International, a unit of News Corp., owner of Dow Jones & Co. The Times and The Sunday Times are published in the U.A.E. through a local partner SAB Media.
get ready for WWIII
I don't know why people on this thread are so happy that Dubai has gone to hell financially. Despite their politics (which are incredibly flawed) they were a big source of revenue for architects and designers. Almost anything was possible when Dubai was booming...even ridiculous looking buildings were possible, but at least they pushed some limits. Now all we have is a burned out, abandoned shell of a city to represent the depths of the recession and the depression that follows.
Why is this something to celebrate?...many of us lost our jobs because projects in Dubai vanished. There is no vindication for architects here...just lost revenue and high unemployment. Why are you guys so happy about this?
Is it me, or is $80b not that much?
I'd love to see Dubai be the Acropolis of our era. Now I just need to live to be 2000.
Otis,
I think some are celebrating because they were putting people in jail for the very act that the government is now committing.
I agree with you, it's not good.
Many US states like California are in the same boat but we don't have debtor's prisons, not yet.
fondue, I would love to hear your views on the treatment of foreign laborers to create the 'Babylonian exuberance'. Dubai can never be guilt free - Good riddance!
$80b is a massive stack of cash but how does it compare to the total development that has occured in the past 10 years? Part of me wonders if Dubai will default on it's debts only to have the underlying assets purchased at a liquidation sale by other investors for pennies of the original purchase price. Given the way their goverent operates I would not be suprised if this crisis is really a convienant way for them to shake off some of their own debts.
Also, has no one studied what happened to a/e firms working in the gulf in the 80's? A sudden boom-to-bust sceniaro of epic scales has happened before and it will happen again.
And I can not believe you are all happy because of people loosing their jobs and banks their money. Isn't it ironic that the same happened in the US. Or when it happens somewhere else it is ok? Funny, uh...
MacRoen,
because underlying this glee of theirs is racism. why else would they be happy? because they believe americans and arabs are on par? gleeful smug bloodlust. its easier for them to condemn rich arabs as the an externalized icon of whats wrong in this ultra-capitalist world than it is to condemn themselves for their own greed. there are implicit subterranean currents of hatred in their rhetoric despite their explicit claims of otherwise.
sameolddoctor,
would you really love to hear anything other than your own assumptions about my views? because obviously you are deaf to the fact that i had already preemptively answered your request above. in which case, why don't you be my secretary and simply regurgitate here that assumption of yours in my name.
"subterranean currents of hatred"
Perhaps thinking we're being racist about it is institutionalizing us as nothing but racists?
The reason I have any glee over it is that, like many of the same real estate practices that have been continued elsewhere in the globe, these practices were doomed from the street.
When the real estate boom was in full swing, I was always lambasted for saying "While density and urbanism is nice, that's the wrong kind of urbanism."
And that's what Dubai ultimately is... it is New Urbanism on state level. But unlike many of the facets of New Urbanism, Dubai didn't seem to be really paying attention to a bottom line... or any bottom line.
Abu Dhabi is slightly more conservative in some regards but not by much.
I simple condemn all tower builders, speculative real estate interests and people unwilling to break tradition... and that tradition seems to be breaking the previous tradition.
It's one thing to pull a Napoleon and go all Haussmen. It's quite another to pull a Dubai.
At least when Napoleon threw France into bankruptcy over his lust for master planning and beauty, Paris seemed to immediately feel the benefits from it and continued to do so for close to 150 years.
The only other issue I have outright with Middle Easterners is not an issue of race... but an issue of religion. You cannot angrily demand religious quality, take that freedom to an extreme and then complain about everyone telling you to "tone it down."
All of these countries in Europe and even somewhat in the US have been moving towards more secular societies. The draw here with religious freedom and the outright display of religion of course draws people from around the world who have been persecuted for their sect of religion or the religion they believe in.
But don't be calling the race card in a place like France who, for the most part, has done everything they can to move away from organized religion for close to a century.
I wonder if Dubai will become the first luxury empty ghost city, and will be the next right thing for Dubai to do? Sell oil for double the price or build the largest solar farm?
Fondue, I wait for the day when the 'dream' will be over for you too. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Ok sameolddoctor,wait and pickle in your bitterness.
Fondue, I'd just like to point out that I don't feel any racism towards Arabs (that's your word - I feel a bit icky about using it, it seems a bit racist. Arabic or Middle Eastern feels less offensive to me, but I'm admittedly ignorant on the most respectful term.). I'm offended by any super-conservative and thus oppressive worldview, which Dubai's power structure seems to share with a lot of white evangelical Americans.
My only "glee" at the fall of Dubai is in seeing such unsustainable and excessive overuse of resources stop. Yes, America has been as guilty of this excess over the last decades too - and if the coming years make it stop or slow down, that will be overall good for all of us, though terribly painful. Yes, it's sad that a lot of work for architects has disappeared, but I don't think Dubai is a very good example of the best that we're capable of building, anyway.
the arabs don't have any choice... the US is sucking out their oil, in return giving them deflating dollars... they can't buy commodities futures to secure their profit because 80% of contracts are owned by hedge funds, goldman sachs, retirement funds (i.e the price is controlled by US)...
the only choice for them is to dump it at properties, at least the money is still in their own soil.
not to mention that the arabs are forced to trade oil with US dollar or else they will be ended up like iraq.
*the day when saddam refuse to exchange oil for US dollar, the day his country got invaded*
very well said, LB.
the underlying issue, in my opinion, is the desire to create/mock a capitalist system. we are just now beginning to see how very unsuccessful capitalism is... especially when left unrestrained to greed.
“Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate” (B.Russell)
they aren't tyrants because they're racist... they screw you no matter what race you are- because you're not as wealthy as they are- and they exist to make sure you never will be.
Hmm, I am not sure how capitalism 'doesn't work'. It sure has worked well for most of the world for a long time now. Obviously unregulated greed/power taken to abusive levels is bad anyway you look at it, that goes without saying.
Everyone screws everyone, always has, and as long as humans remain in control, always will.
Personally, I think that we will, or could, have a much greater growth and prosperity. At least in the US, there is so much room for rapid transit, master planned connections, etc.
Now if we could just keep our money here and invest in our own country...
Dubai was just too much of everything, although there were some impressive things taken on that no one else is even dreaming of doing (mostly do to risk of the unknown).
One massive crazy experiment and gamble. But I sure hope that it does not really go down (and it doesn't look like anyone will let it), as that would take the world down.
We'll be struggling for a while, but if there was another catastrophe in the financial world then we can all kiss life as we know it goodbye.
Orochi Perhaps thinking we're being racist about it is institutionalizing us as nothing but racists?
i don't share your exclusivist logic. i believe someone can be racist and(rather than nothing but) something else, perhaps something better. one can be as pleasant as libery bell, for example, and declaring love here and there yet still carry nuances of racism that even she might be oblivious to. mutifaceted. and i also don't understand why i would have you "institutionalized" as anything.
Orochi The only other issue I have outright with Middle Easterners is not an issue of race... but an issue of religion.
perhaps your issue is neither; perhaps your issue is that you're polemically, an anal contrary individual chronically addicted to your captious sense of betterness, individually and culturally.
Oh, well how about that Mr. or Mrs. (insert a bunch of vaguely insulting adjectives!).
I should point out how many of those suffer poor syntax but I am not.
The institutionalization part is where you jumped to the conclusion that we're all white and the only possible reason we're happy with Dubai sinking into the ocean is because we like to see "brown races fail."
Pigeonholing and ad hominem attacks are more polemic that anything I've done in this thread.
In fact, I stuck pretty much to the facts. You were the contrarian of rabid repousser when you immediately started making racially-inclined lashes and referring to general opinion as subterranean.
In fact, you were also pretty upset about the whole Porsche World thread in which I declared building a theme park in a desert is a pretty stupid idea.
And you immediately lashed back with the racially charged diatribe that I shouldn't judge.
I hate the UAE because of their continued approach of making the most retarded decisions ever. I may even be a little bit jealous that no one in the US will make the advantageous advancements that the UAE has.
But as retarded as the UAE is, I have not claimed they are retarded because they are arabic or levantine or turkish.
I have claimed, however, that I hate the general muslim population whether they be indonesian or pashtuk or north african. I hate them, and am fully within juris prudence to hate them, because of their actions and inability to play the game everyone else in the world is forced to play.
liberty bell;
if someone where to call me an arab, i would be totally nonchalant about it. in actual fact, there is no such thing as an arabic person. there is arabic music, the arabic language, an arabic culture...but there is an arab person or an arab. its a subject - object thing. anyway, is there anything offensive in calling someone a latin american? what you're not oblivious to is the latent racism embedded within the word "arab" by common negative association and not by the consensus of arabs; and as with the word "arab", i would also have no qualms about being called gay or a gay. the denominator is not the word itself, but the manner with which it is wielded.
regretfully and respectfull (because i venture that youre not a knowingly hating person), i find your view on Dubai beyond rational discourse. fine, you stated your opinion and it is rhetorical and cliched.
Fondue, I definitely carry nuances of racism - that's a good way to put it. My logical mind works hard to overcome those subtle, culturally learned, subconscious ways I feel racist thoughts. I know they are there, and eradicating them is a lifelong effort.
Just today, at a seminar, I referred to an African American architect I know by the name of another African American architect we both know. I apologized immediately, but I felt - still do - like a total asshole.
Anyway, back to Dubai. The photos in the Archinect news article are really gorgeous, as photographs. Very sad, too.
sorry...what you're oblivious to...is what i meant to write.
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